Jediphile

linky

Just to clarify one thing: The jedi masters did *not* attempt to kill the Exile. They merely tried to cut all of the Exiles ties to the force entirely, so that he would no longer represent a threat to it. He had wounded the force, and they feared how else he might hurt it. They would not have killed him, if Kreia had not stopped them, though. They would simply have done to him what Nomi Sunrider did to Ulic Qel-Droma - prevent him from ever using the force again by severing any and all ties to it. In essence, they would have taken away the Exile's force-sensitivity. But it was not a death sentense. Note that they say their verdict is still the same as before - exile.

GAH!!!!

While I haven't actually played Morrowind, I find that most RPGs these days are mostly glorified hackfests and little else. People call games like Dungeon Siege or the Diablo games RPGs, and in my book they just aren't, because there's no role-playing in them. KotOR games aren't even what I'd call real CRPGs, since the stories are exceedingly linear... But they at least have deep and interesting plots, and that helps a lot. For real CRPGs, I play Fallout or similar...

Well, the dialogue files are actually two very different things. The first is the dialog.tlk file, which is just one big file with pretty much all text in the game. The easiest way to access it is to open Notepad (or whatever texteditor or word-processing program you prefer) and then indicate that you wish to open a file. Now find the KotOR2 folder in your system, then set the program to list "all files". The dialog.tlk file will appear in your root KotOR2 folder, so open it and read through. Don't worry if it takes a while to react - it's a very large file. WARNING: Don't change and save anything in that file, since it will affect the actual game. If I accidentially push a wrong key, I usually quit immediately and say "no" when asked whether I wish to save the changes. Second are the actual sound files, which contains all speech in the game. Again open the KotOR2 folder on your harddrive and then open the StreamVoice folder. You'll find a large number of directories with numbers from 001 to 950 and a few others. All the soundfiles are in these directories. They're in WAV-format, however, which Windows Media Player doesn't seem to like. Instead you can get Miles Sound Tools and play them with that - I find that to be easier. You'll have to search through the various folders yourself - I fear there is little help as to which files are found where, but you can always ask around if others have found them. For example, in the \StreamVoice\907\904KREIA\ folder, you can find the cut content where the Exile's companions confront Darth Traya, who may be Kreia or Atris...

Just had a crazy idea... What if in K3, you play the force-sensitive son or daughter of Saul Karath? You're hated by everybody - Carth will certainly be skeptical - because of what your father did and must fight the resentment over the sins of the father as you train as a jedi, which means you're never quite certain whether you're held back because the anger inside over being condemned for your father's sins is what holds you back or whether its the teachers and everyone else who just don't like you. And then you must decide the fate of the galaxy - will you save the Republic in spite of its scorn for you or will you embrace the Sith ways and take revenge on the Republic for how it has treated you? Hmm...

Clowns are scary looking, to some people at least. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Like myself... I've never found clowns amusing so much as frightening. I always think of the Joker from Batman (in the more dark, "Killing Joke" sort of mood) or Pennywise from Stephen King's "It". Bleh....

Your stats are exactly as my starting stats, except that I leave Strength at 14 (still +2) and raise Wisdom to 14 for more force points. With Int 14 you still get plenty of skill points. I usually raise Int to 15 at level 4 and 16 at level 8, but it's usually more for the Intelligence-based conversation-options than for the extra skill point. That extra point is nice, though... Decide which skills you want to build from the beginning. I usually want all of them, and since you'll be alone for a while, you really can make use of most. But Demolitions and Repair are not class skills for the Sentinel, so I usually use my first feat on taking Demotions as a class skill, and then second on Repair. For skills I place priority on Persuade first, since only the Exile may build it. I build both Demolitions and Security early on, because otherwise there are too many containers I can't open or mines I cannot retrieve (all worth wonderful xp). I also build Computer Use and Repair, though, because that will give you some options with T3 later. Awareness is next after those, since you'll want to be able to detect mines, and at times it also allows some conversation paths. Stealth and Treat Injury are right at the bottom of the priorities for me. I do build them, but only after raising the others to 15+ ranks, and I hardly ever use them. Treat Injury is good for building stuff on the workbench, though you don't really need to. Tip: You really don't need skills (except persuade) above 20 ranks in general, but if you decide to build Demolitions, let it go to 22-23. I find that tol be helpful later on Nar Shaddaa... Also, I've played the Sentinel/WeaponMaster combo to the end of the game, and it is good, but I actually found the Sentinel/Sith Lord or Sentinel/Jedi Master combo to be far more powerful. YMMV...

That doesn't quite add up, though - Kreia was herself exiled from the order at the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not following how what you wrote correlates to what I said about Atris and the Exile.....what does Kreia have to do with whether or not Atris was Exile's master...? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, I misunderstood you. Please disregard. These aren't the droids you're looking for - move along

I really can't help myself - it's a curse I tell you!

Well, RPGs are probably about the worst sort of games to write - you have allow players genuine choice in the game, or else it wouldn't be an RPG, which means actually writing the outcome of all of those possibilities. It's not particularly attractive to a programmer, because few players will ever see all those outcomes you had to write. Writing a totally linear game is much more attractive, because there is no doubt people will always see all of your work. For that reason I think perhaps many of the best programmers aren't attracted to the CRPG industry, and so it falls to either those with the ideals to write good RPGs or to just plain bad programmers... Not that I wish to speak ill of any programmers in the CRPG industry, but it would fit with what you say, and we do see lots of half-baked RPGs coming out... And, of course, there are the consoles. There are limits to how you can set a game up, if it's to work on a console, and since the companies won't be writing separate versions for each platform, the games just get ported across. The PC would allow more flexibility than a console simply by virtue of its harddrive, but obviously the games will be written on the basis of the lowest common denominator... And it's easier to program from the consoles, since you don't have to take about a gazillion different PC setups into account (different CPU, Radeon or GeForce graphics, etc...). But I don't think the CPRG is dying. For me it's like when Magic: The Gathering came out, and everybody said it would be the doom of tabletop RPG, because now you had something new and original to replace it. I played Magic in those days, and I enjoyed it, but I never thought that it would be the end of the RPG market, and it wasn't. Magic did "steal" the RPG customers, but only for a while - after the novelty of Magic had passed, the role-players went back to the tables and played on, and they still do. I see the same thing happening with the CRPGs - they're in a bit of a dark age now, because they are bloody expensive to produce, and you have to market them for both PC and consoles to earn any money, but it will change. The PC evolution "rush" will slow down in a few years, and the market will become broader again. By then CRPGs will be making better use than it does now of bringing players together over the internet, and the CRPG market will flourish a bit more again.

That doesn't quite add up, though - Kreia was herself exiled from the order at the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars...

Before this turns into a topic completely devoted to ethics and moral principles, let me just say one thing about how I see the difference between jedi and sith. Yes, the sith are, for lack of a better word, evil. They are selfish and ambitious and care only for themselves and their own power. They continually fight among themselves, because just as they hate the jedi, they also wish to gain more power by killing their masters. Trust, cooperation, friendship - these are lies and weaknesses to a sith. But it's too black and white in my opinion to say that jedi are good and sith are evil. I find it more appropriate to say that jedi *try* to be good, while sith strive for power without moral considerations. That may seem to be the same, especially for the sith, but there is a subtle and important difference for the jedi. The jedi aren't "good" simply by virtue of being jedi - it doesn't nessarily mean that they are or that they cannot do evil things. In KotOR, I think that female jedi you meet in the enclave in K1 said it best: "You should be proud of your accomplishment... but never forget that you still have much to learn.As your power grows you will constantly face temptations to slip to the dark side. This is the eternal struggle of the Jedi." And it *is* an eternal struggle for any jedi, including the masters. The fact that they are the masters does not put them above doing evil things or falling to the dark side. Kreia was a master, and she "fell" to the dark side. The masters may be more powerful and wiser, but that does not make them infallible, and since they are more powerful, they actually have to fight harder than all other jedi in that eternal struggle against the temptation of the dark side. That is why we can see the masters do things that are morally questionable and strategically unsound things in both KotOR games.

Actually I'll have to revise my argumentation on the subject of the Darth Traya bit a little because of something Sikon said, and which I didn't pick up on at first... My point that Atris couldn't know about Darth Traya becomes void, as Sikon said, because Atris' comments about it to the Exile comes after the meeting between Atris and Kreia, where Kreia explains about Darth Traya to Atris. So of course Atris knows about Traya after that. I'll have to skip that as an argument. I do maintain, however, that Darth Traya is a title and not a name proper. For one thing, note the quote I made above: Kreia: "'Sith' is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.For you... it is different. Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn." The latter bit in no way suggests that Darth Traya is a unique individual. On the contrary, it says right out that Traya must always be there, no matter who holds the position. So it cannot be a real name. It falls into the same category as many other "Darths". For example, "Darth Sidious" was really Palpatine, "Darth Vader" was really Anakin Skywalker, and "Darth Tyranus" was really Count Dooku. Many of the "Darths" of the KotOR age seems to fall outside this principle of assigning a new name, including Revan and Malak, though that might just be because Bioware couldn't be bothered to think up cool "Darth" names for them. Strangely, Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma weren't "Darths" at all... Darth Maul is uncertain, since we just don't know if that was ever his real name. Similarly we don't know about Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus either (though I naturally have my suspicions on Nihilus). But I do take the fact that Kreia says there must always be a Darth Traya to mean that Traya is closer to Vader, Sidious, and Tyranus. If nothing else, I believe that because the names seem to carry meaning. Darth Sidious seems close to "insidious", which is appropriate for Palpatine. Darth Vader might come from "invader", since Anakin did destroy the jedi. Darth Tyranus probably comes from "tyrant", which is consistent with a Sith. Darth Traya, however, is clearly based on "betrayal", which is even mentioned as a condition for the title. So I doubt Traya was Kreia's real name.

I find what is annoying about that is that in the OT, there was no other colours of lightsaber apart from red, green and blue?? So really it was Sam Jackson that basically made all the other different colours happen. *shrugs* <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, if you look back at the action figures they produced for Star Wars after the original film, the Luke figure had a yellow lightsaber... Don't ask me why, but at least the phenomenon isn't quite that new - there was actually a yellow lightsaber before a green one...

You're missing the point. It's the fact that the title of Darth Traya was even considered to be optional (either Kreia or Atris) that tells us that it's not Kreia's real name, and so that cannot be the real name of Kreia that Atris refers to. I don't count Atris as Traya as a legitimate option, I merely use the fact that it was contemplated by the devs to draw a conclusion. But even if we discount the possibility that Atris might have been Traya, I still do not believe that her comment about Kreia not being Kreia's real name is a reference to Kreia's name being Kreia because Kreia would still have become Traya after Atris knew her, and so Atris would have no knowledge of her title as Darth Traya. Therefore "Traya" cannot be the real name of Kreia that Atris refers to.

Thanks. See, I can write one-word posts... Oh damn!!

We don't. Well, to be fair, *I* don't, or at least I don't remember the exact phrases. But if I need to know what was said specifically, I just go through the dialog.tlk file and use the search function... The biggest problem is that it doesn't tell you who said the sentences (or whether they're cut content), but I can usually remember from the game, or else it can be concluded from context.

"Kumus will not be returning to the Mandalorian camp... at least not all of him..." Nasty

Not so long, actually - 10 minutes or so? You'll note that much of it is actually dialogue from the game, which I could cut and paste. That doesn't take long to do. And besides, once I get going, I can write very long and extensive sentences. Not always a good thing, but I've learned to cut them into smaller sentences, though that just makes my posts even longer... There are doubtlessly those who type faster than I do, but my rate is pretty decent too, so that gets a lot out there pretty quick... Yes, my bad - I know... :">

Maybe saying his 'dark side' is the wrong term... I look more at like Nihilus is a manifestation of the Exile's rejection of darkness within that he defied on Malachor V. He may or may not have been DS in K2 depdending on player choice, but that doesn't change the fact that he did reject the darkness within a decade earlier. If you're interested in the theory, go back a few pages in topic and read my discussion about it when Metadigital. No, I wouldn't, but then I also don't think that will happen. I think Revan will turn to the dark side because that's the sort of sacrifice Kreia credits him with in K2, and I think the Exile will too, because the relationship I suspect he has with Nihilus. I do not think, however, that they will be the boss villains of K3 or that they will kill each other. Whether either or both of the die, I really don't know, but I hope not. But naturally that's colored by what I hope is in K3, and which I described in my plot suggestions on the K3 topic.

I think we will see a Revan turned to the dark side again. The Exile will seek him out and confront him, and Revan will then use the truth of what happened on Malachor V to corrupt the Exile and turn him to the dark side as well. Then Exile will put on the mask that Visas gave him and Nihilus will be reborn.

Where? You say you do, but you don't point to anything in the game, and all you've given is a link to a summary of Revan's life, which can be called into question simply on the basis of being written by a third party that does not support their interpretatations with references to the original source. If you want to blindly accept that, then that's fine for you, but I'll stick to what I actually see in the game, thank you. And again, no: GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force." It helps to read what others write in the discussion, particularly when I've already gone through the trouble of putting the important bit in bold. I don't think it defies logic, but you're right that we don't actually know that he did. We don't know the opposite either, though, and if canon says so, I'd like to see where. One reason why I call the link you mention into question is that the timeline it mentions for Revan's fall (or sacrifice) does not make sense to me, since it claims that Revan fall when he found the Trayus Academy on Malachor V. Since we know that Revan arrived late to that battle and it was the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars, this would have happened just after the Mandalorian Wars ended at the earliest. And that doesn't make sense to me, since it would mean that Revan had not yet fallen when he sent the jedi and Republic soldiers that were not completely loyal to him to die on Malachor V. HK-47: "Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic." Now, given that Revan used Malachor V to either convert the jedi to become fanatically devoted to him or else to kill them, it naturally follows that he would already have fallen to that dark side at that point - what he did here is really evil! But according to the link you gave, he didn't fall until later when he had time to explore Malachor V, and that doesn't seem to add up to me. Now look at what Kreia tells us. Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others." The part in bold clearly suggests that Revan's choice was a conscious one. We could argue that it's just Kreia's interpretation and that it is colored by her own bias, but I don't think she would have held onto this belief if the facts had contradicted her opinion, and that suggests that Revan's fall - or sacrifice - came early enough to support her view. Now look at something else she says. Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. It would have helped had he made her understand. But she was always strong-willed, that one, and did not understand war as Revan did." Now the first part in bold in this quote only makes sense if it speaks to Revan's motives *before* he fell to the dark side. It also explains why he left military installations and so intact throughout his reign as the dark lord - he knew the true Sith were out there. And for Kreia's comments about Revan never falling to make sense, he would have had to have this knowledge of the threat of the true Sith before he fell or sacrificed himself to the dark side, or else the whole idea of a sacrifice falls apart. It only makes sense if Revan can possibly be interpreted to have willing embraced the dark side and converted the jedi with him all for the greater good of being able to stand against the true Sith later. And the last bold-faced part I quote above tells us, that Revan knew war, which supports the idea that his choices were strategic and farsighted all along. He would have brought down the democratic Republic, yes, but not destroy it - democracy is an ideal, and that you cannot ever destroy. It may even be that Revan sacrificed himself, became the dark lord, dooming the Republic, just so that it's planets could survive the next war with the true Sith and then overthrow Revan himself and finally restore the Republic's democracy. Yes, those are a lot of factors that need to fall into place, but if the threat Revan saw was the true fall of the Republic, then he might have embraced that fickle hope simply on the basis that it was it was the only way he saw for the Republic to survive the true Sith in the long run. GOTO, HK-47 and Kreia all mirror similar theories about Revan's motives. You can call them incorrect, sure, but so far they're all we have to base our speculation on, and therefore it's still better than nothing. Besides, GOTO's analysis is compelling because it does explain several things and fits with what we know of Revan's actions. Millions would have died if Revan had not gone to war, and he and Malak would never have been defiant if the masters hadn't decided to basically just let the Mandalorians do whatever they wanted on the outer rim. It is said many times throughout both games that the Republic likely would have fallen had it not been for Revan and Malak, and the postulate is hardly ever refuted even by the masters. The masters just thought they could wait forever until the true threat revealed itself, but while they were right about the true threat, they were wrong about the significance of the more immediate danger - even jedi cannot fight wars without support of the military, and even if the Republic had survived the Mandalorian Wars without jedi interference - and that's a pretty big if - it would still have shattered its military infrastructure. That was the genius of the manipulation of the true Sith - the jedi could either act too soon and risk falling to the dark side by helping the Republic fight the Mandalorians, or they could sit back and let the Mandalorians and the Republic shatter each other until the Republic was so weak that it couldn't defend itself when the true Sith came. For the true Sith this is a win/win situation. And note that the jedi order was already failing at the time, since many jedi had already died in Exar Kun's Sith War only a few decades before. The only one that seems to have understood all this is Revan (and perhaps Kreia). But the masters did not, or else they did not have the stomach to risk anything in war. Revan knew that risks were unavoidable in war, however, and so he risked what was needed. He had to risk more because the masters were indecisive. Yes, but you cannot blame Revan for the situation with the Exile - what happened there was completely unprecedented - it was a totally new risk wholly unrelated to the threat of Revan or the true Sith. Indeed, it was a threat to them too, though I doubt Revan was aware of it. The blame can just as well said to be the council's since they forced the issue by refusing to go to war. Of course there are those jedi who will not let millions die on the outer rim - protecting the weak and fighting evil is what the jedi do. To suddenly tell them they can't is to deny who they are.

I've been wondering this, because it seems like something that would be obvious. IIRC the Exile never became a Jedi knight - he (or she) never advanced beyond the rank of padawan before he joined the crusade of Revan and Malak. It seems like something that the Exile might have mentioned at some point, and I find it particularly odd that it doesn't seem to come up in the conversations with the Disciple, since he knew of your backstory, yet I just don't recall it ever being mentioned. Does anybody recall a part of the game where this is revealed?

Fair enough, but I don't get that impression from the source material that I have quoted. But while I have tried to use canon material as evidence to support my position, you have merely stated that Revan did not know at that time and then expected me to accept that. I might, but you'll have to do better than just claim it without documenting your position. Otherwise it's just opinion against opinion. Or opinion against conclusion based on the sources, since I have actually founded my position on what the game tells us. I still have no idea what you have founded your position on. Uhm... If the jedi had acted, Revan would not have had to defy them... He did because they refused to act - they had ample opportunity to act. They just chose to wait and let millions die in the outer rim instead. True, but he would still have saved the people, and I do not find it impossible that he chose that knowing that he, in time, would also be overthrow, so that the Republic could live again. If the true Sith had won, however, the Republic would have stayed dead. That's what Kreia talks about when she says that the difference between a fall and a sacrifice can be difficult to see. Once again... GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force." I don't know why you continue to ignore this quote by GOTO, particularly the part I've put in bold, since it more than clearly suggests that Revan did not merely seek conquest, but no matter - I shall continue to repeat it for as long as you continue to ignore it.