Jediphile

14. I would put Mira in KOTOR I Bastila's age, which is 23.Anyway, are you going to continue this offtopic? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Huh?? Okay, several things here... First, Amidala was around 20 or so when she was queen of Naboo - she definitely wasn't 10. Remember how Palpatine introduces her to the Senate in Episode I? Palpatine: "To state our allegations, I present Queen Amidala, recently elected ruler of the Naboo, who speaks on our behalf..." So, however old she is in Episode I, she has not been queen for long. Second, the Mandalorian Wars lie a little less than 10 years before the events of KotOR2. Note how, when the Exile feels the force again, he/she comments that it has been almost a decade since he/she felt it... I very much doubt that the Exile was younger than 20 at that point, which suggests that he/she is at least 30 if not more in KotOR2. I tend to think that Mira is a few years older than the Handmaiden, but then I could be wrong, and she could be 22 or so and still have been no more than 12 at the end of the Mandalorian Wars. Just to clear that up...

Agreed... and disagreed I would say they're both pretty LS, even if they don't seem particularly light sided on the surface. As you say, T3 generally responds will only to LS choices, but I find Bao-Dur to be actually more LS demanding in this regard, because unlike T3, you can build no influence with him just be talking to him and being appreciative of his presence as you can with T3. On the contrary, building influence with Bao-Dur requires almost exclusively that he is in the group to witness your LS choices in specific situations, and even then those are limited. To build influence enough with Bao-Dur to turn him into a jedi you must take several LS points, which I think puts him the LS group of people.

Malachor V didn't create the wound, the Exile did - the darkess of Malachor V only served as something that facilitated and increased the severity of the wound. As the masters explain over many, many conversations, what happened was that the Exile's strong affinity for force bonds with others made him much more susceptible to all the anguish and terror that the devasation of Malachor V caused to the victims of the mass shadow generators, and the Exile experienced all that suffering much more intensely than other people, because his force bonds gave him a far more empathic experience of it all. And the darkness of Malachor V added to that. The experience was so intense and traumatic that the Exile was nearly killed, but instead of dying, he acted instinctively and unknowningly by cutting off his own connection to the force and thereby silencing all the suffering that he felt. It helps if you have to think of it as someone with exceptionally good hearing, who is suddenly forced to endure a large amount of very loud and painful noises... But though the Exile cut off his connection to the force, he did not abandon his ability to create force bonds, and that is what we see him do in K2. Nihilus does something similar, and as the masters explain, it didn't just happen to him as it did to the Exile. Rather, Nihilus actually learned it from the Exile himself - they are opposite sides of the same force wound. As the masters say, when they felt Katarr die, they felt something they had only felt once before - when the Exile stood before them and they sentenced him. I have my own speculations about Nihilus, but all we really know yet is that somehow Nihilus was also spawned by the Exile's act to sever himself from the force and the force bond that he thereby created.

But I like bathing in the Darkside. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> :D I can hear the ads for it now: "Dark Side puddles - because you're worth it!"

You know, I think it's actually rather interesting that you *don't* battle yourself. I mean, it does serve to underscore the point that the Exile is still in denial about his past and his powers that you don't, doesn't it? Fascinating....

Ignore free force powers?!?!?!?!?!?!

You need to have Bao-Dur when finding these sensors though. And what "black dude" are you talking about, the one that wants these sensors? PS. Moved to spoilers section... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yeah, that guy. I never remember his name. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Saedhe

You need to have Bao-Dur when finding these sensors though. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually no - if you have a high enough Repair skill, you can do it even without Bao-Dur. It's a good idea to have him there, though, because dealing discovering the truth about the sensors is one of the few things that builds influence with Bao-Dur. I usually make sure to have Bao-Dur in the group at that point, but when he offers to look the sensors over, I just do it myself with my Repair skill, and when I succeed, Bao-Dur praises me for my skill at it *and* I still get to build influence with him

No, I don't think they're really prequels in the sense that you're suggesting. The problem with most prequels is that they have end up fitting with the later events and characters that you know from the stories that are supposed to succeed them, and which you already know. This not true for KotOR or TotJ because they are so far back in the past that really anything could have happened in between (and probably did...). Note one thing about these stories - they have all been told chronologically. The TotJ comics begin exactly 4000 years before the movies, and each new story happens after the last one. The KotOR games continue down the same timeline, beginning some 30 years after the last comic book. Thus, there is nothing in the plot that is not possible to do because it has to fit with later continuity - it's a (somewhat) smooth line of succession without odd plots forced into the middle of everything, and you have no idea where the plot is going. After all, one thing that can be annoying in the prequel movie trilogy is the fact that you *know* Anakin will fall to the dark side and become Darth Vader - he simply has to, since the later saga demands it. That means you cannot sit down and be quite so horrified by his bad choices, because you know they're coming, and there can be no shock over it, unlike Ulic murdering his brother or Luke learning that Vader is his father. This reduces the prequel trilogy to being a way for us to see how it really happened, but nothing more than that, because we already know how it *must* turn out...

In context, Revan and Malak were more devasting without having to use suns. The way you say it makes it sound like Kun and Ulic were doing it all the time, but it happened once - and it wasn't even Exar and Ulic, it was Aleema using overclocked Force powers thanks to the fat Kaibur/Sith crystals in front of her . And lets remember - though it sounds like it puts the war in a league of its own, it doesn't - what else did that act of blowing up suns devastate besides the fleet Aleema and Crado were fighting and Ossus' surface? Nothing. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But then that was a pretty devastating thing. Ossus isn't just some planet, it was the central world where jedi lore was stored, and many of the secrets of the jedi were lost as a result of this action, either due to the directly destructive results to Ossus or because they were captured by the Sith. Note that even in K2, Atris still mentions how much of a loss the devastation of Ossus was to the order, and K2 happens 45 years later... If you didn't like that story or the writing, then fine. I'm just saying that Exar and Ulic definitely left their mark on the Star Wars universe. A lot of people don't like the way the Sith War or most of the Tales of the Jedi stories were written. I thought they were okay myself, though I'd scarcely call the writing good (adding "ancient Sith magics" is a bit of a crutch plotwise to say the least...). And as you say, there is a lot of background that's not detailed in those stories. That I can better forgive, however, since you have to choose your focus in your story. As has been noted in this very topic, K1 also didn't show us a lot of large confrontations in the Jedi Civil War that was said to be devastating to the Republic. The problem is that the story must always center around the characters, and you can only put them in so many battles without letting them come to harm before credibility is hurt. In the Sith War comic, it is much more of a significant point that Ulic kills his brother than it is if some unknown world with millions of unknown people is lost, because we don't know them and so don't care (much, anyway) about them, whereas we've been following Cay for 16 issues of TotJ at the point where he dies. Nobody cares if some unknown extra dies in a movie - we care if it's one of the main characters. The most extreme case of this is in Star Trek, which got infamous for its use of "red shirts"... This was so pronounced at one point that a full character is dedicated to the "problem" in the Trek spoof Galaxy Quest (which I recommend - it's hilarious ) So while we may not see many people die in either war, we're still presumed that this is meant to have happened. Same thing with the Mandalorian Wars. Another thing to remember from the Sith War is all the jedi that converted to the Sith ranks and killed their masters, which no doubt decreased the ranks of jedi, and left the number of jedi reduced, only to be drained further 40 years later, when Revan and Malak caused yet another split within the order. I do think that the jedi of the KotOR era are still hurting from the devastation Exar and Ulic caused to their ranks...

Yes, but that's always my problem with prequel stories - we know where they must end up, and so they are frequently uninteresting since the plot is fixed, or else it does something that contradicts the later plot, which is even more annoying.

Hmm, I suppose one possibility is to allow an automatic transfer of items back to the Ebon Hawk without actually going there. If, for example, you find a cool new armor and want to use it, but it exceeds the weight limit, then you get to drop something to the Ebon Hawk inventory. It's one way, though - one you put it in the Ebon Hawk inventory, that's where it is, and you can't just pull it out from there - you'll actually have to go back to the Ebon Hawk to get it, the assumption being that you or one of your companions took the excess loot back to the Ebon Hawk, but will not get it back automatically. Not a very elegant solution, but it does offer some compromise between the illogical nature of unlimited carrying capacity and undesired bookkeeping. I really don't want K3 to be lke the Diablo games, where you have to use Town Portal spells or similar every two seconds to drop off your loot.

Some good points, I think. Generally, I'd agree with you, and a lot of the lost potential seems to be lost in the cut content of the game As for the characters themselves, I did like Visas, but you're right that she didn't have much to offer - she attacks and then instantly becomes your willing servant, and after one talk, it's all done and you can leave her to rot on the Ebon Hawk because there's nothing more to learn from her... They should have spread the information out more or have added things for Visas to say in specific situations. I would have liked for her to make lots of comments on Korriban given her connection to the Sith, for example, but nope - never a word... By comparison Handmaiden is indeed more of a real character with lots of background and history. As to her reasons for being on the Ebon Hawk, I gather there was supposed to be a cutscene where Atris tells her to join the Exile's crew and spy on him (ony if Exile is male). The sound files can be found and heard if you have the pc version, if you want an estimate of what that scene would have been like. It's not a big revelation or anything, though. As for the other characters, I don't agree with T3. Yes, he comes across as more interesting in K2 than in K1, but then he couldn't possibly have been less interesting than he was in the last game, and now he is interesting only because you are actually forced to play him several times and because he has secrets for you to unlock. I liked that they did that for most of the characters, but they probably should have given each and every character some time in the limelight, so that the there would be some character development. As it is, GOTO, HK-47 and Hanharr are all worthlessly forgettable characters, though they do at least have bonus abilities for the Exile to unlock. Mandalore is only slightly more interesting, but has no secrets - no reason to build influence with him at all - and, as you said, his motives for being in the group do not seem particularly compelling... A lot of people hate Disciple. Not sure why, though. He's not a particularly interesting character, but at least he's a lot more useful than GOTO, T3, HK-47 or Hanharr, and he can be useful to regenerate force points with. He's not a favorite character, but I don't hate him either... Atton was probably hurt a lot by the cut content as well, while Bao-Dur is entirely too quiet in his particular corner of the Ebon Hawk. Building influence with him is difficult - he will respond postively only to a few things - and otherwise he has very little to say. Even if you "jedify" him, the conversation is virtually non-existant... Bao-Dur should have been a means by which to let the Exile gradually revisit the horrors of Malachor instead of having it all just thrown right in your face by the mastes toward the end of the story, but they missed that option completely, and the bad pacing that results ends up as just bad storytelling - even though the plot is actually sound and interesting, at least to me, it just isn't told well...

It's just as you enter the tomb with Revan, but before Revan responds to you. I you open the door and look just to the right of Revan, you'll see a DS Exile standing right next to Revan. The second Revan responds to you and at the cutscene begins, the DS Exile disappears instantly, though.

Yes, but that just means that they think carrying everything you find around is dumb and illogical. I don't think it means that they're willing to embrace more bookkeeping for the sake of the game being more "logical". Of course they'll say it's dumb, because it *is* illogical that you can carry 67 armors around. But that's all it means...

Fair enough, but wars are certainly not always named for all the people involved. The Kalmar War between Sweden and Denmark may have started there, but it was not an internal fight to the city of Kalmar - it was a war between two nations that just began there. I find that to be a reasonable comparison, because just like the internal conflict in the jedi order spawned the Jedi Civil War, the Kalmar War also simply began in the city of Kalmar. In both cases the war just escalated from that point, but then wars do have a tendency to do that...

The only problem I can see with it is that it's work for the programmers to add something to the game that many people will find to be annoying, because that means they actually have to go through the task of deciding which stuff to bring along and which not. Add to that the annoying thing when you find some really cool armor, but can't take it with you because it exceeds the weight limit, and you can't part with any of the carefully chosen equipment you're already carrying around. I agree with you that character carry 30+ armors is nonsense, but on the other hand, most players really just can't be bothered to have to sort out their equipment. This is especially true for someone like myself, who just feel compelled to take *everything* I can get my hands on - playing games like Diablo was murder, because I just *had* to take that crappy armor back to town for the cash...

But... but then I can't run around with five Exar Kun's warsuits and 15 republic armors anymore... " :D

But aren't you now making the same mistake that you described in your first paragraph above? While we might not have seen pure jedi vs. jedi fights in KotOR1, that doesn't mean that they didn't take place. In fact, the Endar Spire was under direct command by the jedi, IIRC, and we did see one jedi and sith fighting each other, and another killing Trask Ulgo... I'd agree with you the whole Manaan thing is very odd - there should have been several jedi there, as I've stated elsewhere on this forum.

I know what you mean, but the advantage of leaving it in is that you can revisit a conversation if you forgot what a person said. I actually liked that, though you're right that it was best with those conversations that got altered from "What can you tell me of Atris?" to "Tell me about Atris again" or similar when repeated. Though it might look a bit silly, I'd prefer if they flag an conversation option you've already had with the a "[Repeat]" notification or such, so that you know you've already been there. The player might not remember, but the character bloody well should

Yes it does! When installing it gave me a stern message about Win2k being a non-supported platform, but I pretended I didn't see it. The game runs beautifully on WinXP pro, Athlon 2.4, ATI 9600xt. It also correctly identified my Win98 machine's Nvidia card, no graphical worries there either. Don't know if it has anything to do with it, but the game has a huge patch to v.1.40 still available through auto-update. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, all I can say is that it didn't work for me... I can play for about 10-15 minutes and then my system crashes completely and I have to turn the machine off and boot from scratch. With so much trouble, I didn't try again. Besides, I had already finished it a few times and discovered all the secrets (at least that I'd heard of), so not playing again wasn't a major loss. Would have loved to go back, though.... Except for all the return trips to Lenele... And the Durgan's lucky charm sidequest

Yeah... He does the same thing with the color of your lightsaber that Atris has, btw... Sneaky git!

Well, I'm sure the chinese or japanese could argue similarly that it should not be called World War I, yet the war is known as such in history in general today (originally just "The Great War"). Wars are not named by a convention of accurate description so much as by how they are generally perceived by the majority of people. I guess the recent war in Iraq will be (or is already) known as the second Gulf war, even though lots of nations in the region was not involved at all. That's also inaccurate... And then, of course, there's the point that Obsidian might have preferred the term "Jedi Civil War" simply because they did not won't confusion between the Sith under Revan and Malak and the true Sith that we will presumably fight in KotOR3. Also, I wouldn't dismiss the idea that it might be called "Jedi Civil War" simply keep reminding the player that the conflict of the last game as well as the current was rooted more in the dissent within the jedi order itself than in some invading Sith from somewhere else. We know that, but it would help to drive the point home.