Jediphile

Actually, I did think there was a little more between them, but only from Talia's side - I never got the impression that Kavar was anything but serious business when they talked, though she seemed to be more... dedicated, somehow.

In short it's due to his rather peculiar arm. The bad thing of it is that the reason isn't plot defined but because the devs couldn't make his arm work right with a robe, and so he was banned from ever using one. Yes, that does officially suck... Still, if you want to turn him into a jedi and have unrestricted use of force powers, I recommend that you hang onto the miner suit you found very early in the game on Peragus - it is the only piece of protective clothing in the game that Bao-Dur can use and still use any force power. It's bad - only 2 points of defense - but it's better than nothing, and it does at least allow armor upgrades.

Statement: Of course, master - that's why I included it "

True. Finding out about Atton's background is more of a side quest, yet that never appears in the journal either... Well, they should have at least stuck a few of them in the journal, particularly Atton's, since it becomes clear rather early that there is much more to him. Same with Kreia btw. True, and that's only part of the problem. What is really annoying is how the influence options don't change depending on alignment switches - Bao-Dur will still react negatively to killing the innocent even after you've corrupted him to your Sith ways, and HK-47 will still complain about compassion and mercy when you help the weak, even if you push him to extreme light side, and I did that in my last game, which is really quite funny - both HK-47 and G0T0 were so lightsided that would have had LS mastery if it was possible for them

Doesn't matter what his reasons are - what a man does will define whether he is good or evil. Thrawn did a lot of really nasty and manipulative things - manipulating the Noghri, using C'Baoth for his own interests, killing people in his battles, killing people under his command when they didn't live up to his expectations, spying on the Alliance, trapping the fleet on Coruscant, etc. And it was all done to revive the Empire - not a particularly benevolent motive. Thrawn's real mistake was the same that such people always make - arrogance. He was too certain that he could keep on manipulating everybody and never have them uncover his deception, in his case with the Noghri. Only too late did he learn that arrogance and self-delusions of grandeur are always punished harshly. It sounds to me like you like Thrawn. That's fine. Thrawn is smart, which is a good trait. But don't excuse his actions on that basis. I like Garak on Star Trek DS9 because he was secretive and manipulative, but I do so for his skills, not because I think he's a person who deserves admiration. He was a well-written and beautifully played character, but does not mean I like his character or would desire his traits in real people. On the contrary, I find him fascinating probably mostly because he scares the crap out of me, same way that Hannibal Lecter does.

Gee, thanks.... I guess

This I doubt. Sorry, but I do. I've been looking in the TotJ comic books, and the closest I've found is on page 23 of the first issue of "The Freedon Nadd Uprising", when it says, "Outlawed for their evil practices, the Sith civilization long ago vanished into obscurity. The end of the Sith people also marked the disappearance of their Dark Lords". This does not suggest to me that all the Sith worlds were assimilated by the Republic or even that they are known to the Republic. Still, I could be wrong, but I'd like to see evidence to the contrary before I accept it, and even if I did, it seems clear that the KotOR games have already decided to commit to a different version of events. Note Atton's comment about how Onderon is as far as the core that you can get and still be in the Republic, and Kreia's comments about how Korriban and Malachor V are on the fringes of the old Sith empire and had been been forgotten by the true Sith. Well, I do see your point... I guess the problem lies in the difference in how you tell a story in a comic book and how you tell it in a computer game. In the KotOR games you play the main character yourself, and that makes it pretty difficult to describe the sort of guilt and soul-searching that Ulic goes through in "Redemption", because in the game all the decisions and answers must come from the player. It might be easier in K3 if Revan is actually in it and is an NPC. We can hope, at least... It's nonsense only if you think that excuses Revan, which I don't - he made a choice and did what he did, and so the responsibility and blame lies with him in the end. We haven't seen how it all plays out, so I'll reserve my judgment on that issue until I actually see K3. But yes, we'll have to see - assuming a LS ending of K1 - a Revan that is truly repentent of what his choices resulted in and went to fight the true Sith alone as a way to atone for his sins. But it'll take pretty good writing to do something like that without making it seem pretty lame. It can be done, though.

Their empire fell, yes, but that doesn't mean the people died. The fall of the Roman Empire didn't mean that its people died, for example, so I don't see there is a problem claiming that there are still those Sith descendants who dream of reviving their old and great empire. If we wanted to explain it all, we could claim that the Sith spirits that prepared Exar Kun did this to weaken the Republic with internal strife, so that the old Sith empire could be revived and conquer the republic, though I admit that I doubt the idea that revenge was the motiviation for the Sith. After all, Exar Kun was corrupted by the spirit of Freedon Nadd, and he was never one of the old Sith, he just learned from them. Also, while the worlds of the old Sith empire might have been assimilated by the Republic at the time of the movies, we know they aren't in KotOR2. Note that Attons says, "Onderon is about as far from the Core as you can get and still be in the Republic". And either way, Kreia directly tells us that the true Sith are indeed tied to the Sith empire at the end: Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark." The idea of redemption is a powerful one, and if you don't like it on a personal level, then there are a great many stories you won't like. It's also a fairly common idea, so to say that it's plagiated just because it was also used in another Star Wars plot seems like a very harsh judgment to me. Besides, what if Revan was made into an instrument of evil by the dark side? Is he still guilty then? And if he did evil things in K1 (player choosing DS ending), then doesn't the blame for it really lie with the jedi council who manipulated his mind and then set him free to pursue his evil again? The idea of atonement is also tied to redemption. Is that acceptable? You could say no, but then if you apply that harsh a judgment for people, then who is ever without guilt? Personally I like the concepts of redemption and atonement, because I don't like the idea that people cannot change for the better, which seems to me like the inevitable consequence of the alternative. But that's a discussion for philosophers and theologians...

Well, it's an assumption on my part, but I do think it's a fairly obvious one. The Sith Empire was said to be more powerful than the Republic, though smaller. Still, that was in the golden age of the Sith, when Naga Sadow began the Hyperspace War, and the Sith Empire was probably hurt a lot when they lost that war. Then again, that was a thousand years before KotOR, so a lot may have happened since. For example, both Malachor V and Korriban seem to be known worlds in the Republic. But there are still several of those worlds we haven't heard much about or which haven't been used since in KotOR games, including Ch'hodos, Rhelg (the private world of Ludo Kressh), and Khar Delba and its moon Khar Shian (which was Naga Sadow's secret world). And naturally the most central world is the throne world, where the Dark Lord of the Sith rules the empire - Ziost. And that is where I suspect Revan may have gone, and where a KotOR3 may take us. May not seem like much, but I always got the impression that these were just a few names for some token Sith worlds that served as examples for the all the worlds we didn't hear about. After all, the Sith empire was an empire, so it's scarcely just one planet. Besides, note how Kreia says that Malachor and Korriban - which are the only old Sith worlds we hear of - were on the outskirts of the Sith empire... That leaves us plenty of Sith to bash in the next game

Oh, I agree completely - it was fairly obvious that it was a means to an end. But it was at least done well, which is better than what we usually get to see in these situations.

Well, I really don't think that the true Sith were 'invented' as a sort of plotwise "Evil Deux ex Machine" device that just serves to explain Revan away. I really think they are the descendants of the Sith Empire led by Dark Lords such as Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and Ludo Kressh. They are part of the KotOR era (in the "Tales of the Jedi" comic books), so I don't find it unreasonable to bring them into the KotOR games at some point, and if a powerful common enemy for both LS Revan and DS Revan to fight is needed, then they're practically begging to be used. They were defeated 1000 years ago, so what has happened since? The Republic just forgot them, which is always a dangerous thing to do... This will always be the dilemma in a plot like this - how can you have a character that belongs to the player and yet has background history that you can use for your plot. After all, if you let people choose those, you have to write ten different plots based on their choices, and that's just not going to happen in a computer game. Instead they chose to make Revan the Jason Bourne of Star Wars. Not terribly original, but not bad either - I think the result was okay. I was more disappointed that all the information we got about Revan early on in the game turned out to central plot material than carefully detailed historic background for the setting, since that meant there is no information you hear in KotOR1 that just random trivia - it's all directly tied to the central plot. I like it the other way - if I run a story in my RPG campaign and need to give the players some important information, but not make it obvious that it's important, then I bury that information in five, ten or even fifteen other pieces of information that is just trivial campaign background or pure rumor. Not much of that in the KotOR games, even though there is a *lot* of dialogue... I don't agree at all. Yes, Revan is power, as Kreia would say, but he is certainly no perfect jedi superman. For all his power, Revan made a terrible mistake - he allowed his own certainty in his abilities to let him believe that he could challenge the dark side and use it as a tool, and his mistake was greater than Ulic's, because Ulic really only wanted to do it to infiltrate and expose the Sith. But the dark side - as it always does - twisted Revan and made him its slave. It's the sad old tale that power corrupts, and Revan learned to his peril that his own power only made him more vulnerable, not less. As I see it, he did convert the jedi on Malachor V and create the armada with the Star Forge all to fight the true Sith. It was a daring plan to use the mysteries of the dark side to fight the Sith, but as such things often go, the original intent was forgotten along the way. Maybe Revan just gave in to his own ambitions, his utter conviction in his own greatness, or maybe he was misled by the dark side or twisted more than he thought by using the Star Forge. It doesn't really matter which it is, and it's probably best to leave that for the individual player to decide, because the end effect is the same - Revan's plans to fight the true Sith to save the Republic was twisted into a plan to rule the true Sith by first conquering the Republic and then using its resources to also conquer and rule the true Sith. But then Malak turned on him as the jedi confronted him, and he lost his memory. Is it a bit forced? Yes, a little. K1 ended with a true ending (for LS or DS), so how do you follow up on that? How do you make a direct sequel to a game, where the good or evil endings are so different? You can only do that confronting the major character with something that threatens him no matter which side of the Force he ended up on. Enter the true Sith. A little force, granted, but as forced plots go, this one really isn't so bad IMHO, and it at least has the virtue of being based on already established EU lore. It's a "Oh, the Sith Empire - how could we forget the Sith Empire!?!" sort of plot. So LS Revan will now go and finish the job, because he feels guilty - his plan backfired, and he ended up leaving the Republic even more vulnerable to the true Sith than he intended. So he will sacrifice himself again, fall to the dark side willlingly, but now do so among the true Sith, where he cannot harm the Republic any more. And as Kreia says, he must leave those he loves behind, because such attachments are not the way of the jedi - if he took Bastila with him, for example (or Carth for female Revan), then he would not be able to do what was necessary due to the emotional attachments. So Bastila (or Carth) stays... For DS Revan it's a question of control. Revan realised that the Star Forge was controlling him more than the other way around. He will rule the Republic and the true Sith as well, but he will not become a slave to the Star Forge to do so, and since the Republic is shattered from the Jedi Civil War and he doesn't want to pay the price of using the Star Forge, he must instead go and challenge the true Sith for leadership of their empire directly. As Kreia says on Korriban, civil wars are common among the Sith... And he went alone because his "friends" would just be a distraction. Besides, he really didn't need them anyway...

Can't happen - Atton and T3 both join on Peragus and Bao-Dur and Handmaiden before you leave Atris' academy on Telos, so there is no way to go to Korriban before then. Besides, even if there were, I'm not sure you could enter the tomb at that point, since it seems to be tied to your level and alignment.

Indeed there are - check the \StreamVoice\907\904KREIA directory in your KotOR2 folder to listen to some of it. It's a sequence that was cut from the game, but it has Atris as Traya confronting Visas, Handmaiden, Atton and Mira with Kreia nowhere around.

Playing a male exile sentinel/jedi master, I've reached the tomb on Korriban. All as expected and so forth, until I got to the part where I meet a vision of Kreia, whereafter Atton and then Bao-Dur and T3 turn up and insist on fighting her. However, when the battle began, suddenly the Handmaiden was there alongside Atton, Bao-Dur and T3. What gives? Never happened to me before, but it seems consistent - she was there every time I reloaded. Has this happened to anyone else? Is this a known bug? I did have Handmaiden (and Atton) amond the people left behind when the Exile entered the tomb, and I'm wondering if that had something to do with it...

I still voice support for the planets I have in the past. Begin on Coruscant, then move onto Alderaan, Sleheyron and Myrkr. All worlds that are known, but which we haven't seen or explored much, especially not in the KotOR age. Then move onto the Sith worlds - Khar Shian/Khar Delba and Ziost, which we've heard of only briefly.

Atton: "I mean, how old do you think she is? {Shakes head}She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that."

Both of you missed an A. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My apologies, this will be corrected shortly. Sheesh... I didn't expect this kind of Spanish Inquisi... uh oh!

3. He did say Revan was once Kae's padawan, which could be take as such. 4. I already gave all the relevant quotes on the page where you posted on. Please read it. 5. No, it can't have been Kreia. Kreia was Revan's first master, whether she is Kae or not, and Disciple tells us that the master he doesn't remember is the one Revan had *after* Kae... So it can't be Kreia, since Kreia was the first (and last). 6. Please see my answer to point 4. 7. She isn't cryptic, but the rest isn't so far off, and cryptic would seem to come from being a jedi, which Handmaiden never was. So because you think it's shallow that means it can't be done? It was used once (badly) in the Star Wars trilogy, so that means it cannot be used (much better) for a minor character in the Star Wars universe ever again? And force ghosts do exist in Star Wars, for the dark side even more so - Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, and Freedon Nadd come readily to mind... Again, see my answer to point 4 above.

Pure speculation, yes. No definite proof. But why plotholes? Because you don't like the idea? Also, I don't think it's very polite of you to infer bad argumentation for those of us who voice support of the idea just because you don't like it. Play fair please. Well, if you're going to argue ulterior motives for why a character is in the game, then why is Kae repeatedly mentioned as one of Revan's masters? What does that add to the plot? He did say Revan was her padawan. That could be interpreted to mean that she was his first master, just as Kreia says Revan was once her padawan. It seems to me that "padawan" is not merely another term for a student or apprentice, but rather a term for someone studying under a specific master. As I said before, consider the source. Only Kreia tells us that this is the reason Kae was exiled, and if she is indeed Kae and does not wish to admit that, then she has motive for not giving the correct reason for Kae's exile, since that would expose her. Jedi Knight is just a generic term for a jedi who has gone beyond the rank of padawan. Besides, it's Kreia calling Kae a jedi knight once, while the Disciple consistently calls her a master. I'll take Disciple's word over Kreia's any day. And the exile never says Kae died in the war - the Handmaiden does, though Kae's body was conveniently never recovered.... " So if there is no evidence for, say, there being life on other worlds, then that means there can't be? Please... Besides, K2 was written as a "to be continued" story, and since force ghosts are possible, that doesn't exclude more information on Kae or Kreia in the next plot. So that means it is impossible for Kae to have had white hair also? As Atton said, Kreia must have been beautiful once. The dark side tends to take its toll...

No, they wouldn't have written down "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrggggghhhh" Well, maybe if he was dictating... "

In the Mandalorian Wars, just like Kae. Note the comments when she reveals herself to the jedi council on Dantooine, when they sentence the Exile. When she enters, the masters react like this: Vrook: "Wh-? Kreia: "Step away! He has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance!You will not harm him. You will not harm him ever again." Kavar: "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars..." Kreia: "Die? No - became stronger, yes." Vrook: "Is this your new Master, exile? If so, then you follow Revan's path. Her teachings will cause you to fall as surely as he did.We sought to lure the Sith out... and now they have come to us." Yes. Kreia: "Never have you wondered what it would mean in the Echani rituals if the two of you sparred and fought - and you won, completely and utterly?If perhaps she would give in, surrender herself to you? "

Agreed, but even if I think Kreia is Arren Kae, I must admit that all the evidence is circumstantial - there is no smoking gun, just an awful lot of details that support the theory. Not sure either of them was on Dantooine, and nobody mentions Kae after the Mandalorian Wars, since she is presumed to have died on Malachor V. Clearly Disciple remembers her, and Handmaiden does too - she just never knew her mother. I think she was Kae until Malachor V, then became Darth Traya, letting everyone think Kae was dead. When she was then cast out by Sion and Nihilus, she "created" the "Kreia" persona from those two - K(ae)+(T)raya=Kraya=Kreia. Good point, since while that would seem obvious for Kae, given her relationship with Yusanis, it would not be so for Kreia. Yes. And as Atton said: "I mean, how old do you think she is? She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that."

That wing is one of three objects you need if you want to repair the Airspeeder you can find the Serocco section of the Refugee Sector. Do this as soon as possible if you want to finish it, since it cannot be done after your meeting with the Exchange.

We all do - it's just a matter of digging through the dialog.tlk file for them. It's more difficult to identify them and to see what was in the game and what was cut content. I usually identify it by phrases I hear in the game (and which are therefore obviously not cut content)... The lines about Kae I pay attention to, because her background is such a mystery. But it is speculation, yes. All arguments against Kreia being Kae can be explained, at least that I've heard, but I'm also confident that we'd have found the smoking gun by now if it was there...

As the Exile leaves the jedi enclave on Dantooine: Gerevick: "Many stories and artifacts in your possession? This is fortuitous for myself and associates.For now not only do I get rich salvage, but an even richer bounty. Do not be making this difficult. Your death can be quite painless." Exile: "I'm afraid your's won't be..." Gerevick: "So this is your threat? Is terror what I'm supposed to feel? We know a thing about Jedi and their ways.And now, Jedi, we shall fight." HK-47: "Eager statement: Oh, thank the maker - this bloodbath is going to feel so good..."