Jediphile

Yes... Especially if Vash's apprentice is also around... "

Well, the quote is this: Disciple: "Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques. I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange. As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled." Judge for yourself...

Actually, I'm not convinced that giving birth to Brianna was the reason for Kae's exile. It seems like a very harsh sentence, especially when you consider Jolee's story about his wife in the first game, which he was completely forgiven for by the order (but not himself...). And only Kreia tells us that this is the reason for Kae's exile, which would be convenient, if she does not want to admit being Kae. Also, isn't it a bit odd that this was discovered and Kae exiled *just* as the Mandalorian Wars began, and that she then rushed to join it? It seems a little too convenient to me... Note the following: Kae and Kreia both had Revan as their padawan - not merely apprentice. They were both exiled at the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars They were both believed to have died in the Mandalorian Wars. As Garak would say on DS9, "I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences..." "

That depends entirely on how you look at it. Some see the following as reasons against it: Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae." (Different person because Kreia merely knew Kae) Handmaiden: "I never saw her face, and she did not return from the final battle of the war. She died in the battle that shattered Malachor V, and her body was never recovered." (Kae is already dead) Kreia: "Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled." (Kreia was exiled for her dark teachings) Personally I find all of the above do not present us with conclusive evidence against Kreia being Kae. For the first, it is obvious that Kreia might lie about being Kae. For the second it is quite telling that Kae supposedly died, yet her body just conveniently vanished... For the third, it is again Kreia telling us that having a child was the the crime Kae was exiled for, which would be a given if she does not want to admit that she is actually Kae herself, and notably nobody else ever says that this was the reason for Kae's exile (at least that I have seen). But there is no smoking gun that definitely tells us that Kreia is Kae either - there is only speculation and conjecture, and given how much this has been discussed, I doubt we will get closer to a final answer, unless Obsidian themselves decide to shed light on the matter.

Why is it bad writing that Obsidian brought more depth and subtlety to the character? I think what you describe here is a very simplistic black/white perspective. I find that there are explanations to all of this in K2, though it is true that all the cut content means that you really have to dig for it. But I do think they did their homework plotwise, and that your perspective is rather limited - you have to look at the various stages of "evil Revan". As others have already said, Revan and Malak were already evil before they found the StarForge, since why else would they accept exile from the jedi order by finding the starmap on Dantooine? Revan had already embraced the dark side at that point. What is less clear are the reasons. If Revan already knew of the threat of the true Sith at that point, then he might have done as Kreia suggests and sacrificed himself to the dark side to prevent a greater evil. This would have happened at the Trayus Academy. Yes, this means he is evil now and will kill people, but his motives for having done this in the first placemight be those of serving the greater good - compare to Ulic Qel-Droma before the Sith War and Luke Skywalker in "Dark Empire". Besides, Revan was always the strategist who was prepared to sacrifice, as Canderous noted frequently in K1. I do find it consistent with the character. Perhaps his idea was to embrace the StarForge and build an armada, which he would then strike against the true Sith with. Or so he told himself. Perhaps he didn't intend to fight the Republic at all. But when he found the StarForge, his intentions were twisted by the dark side influence there, and he could no longer persue his original plan, and simply conquering the true Sith was no longer enough for the evil ambitions his embrace of the dark side had imposed upon him. The Republic was weak, so instead of being something he sacrificed himself to protect, it became something he had to conquer for power and for later conquest of the true Sith. Adds up in my book... No argument there. Revan probably tried to to embrace the dark side and control it, convinced on his ability to resist given his own power. Which is, of course, a very arrogant position, and just the same mistake as Ulic made (and Luke, to a lesser extent). I think Revan's choice to fight the true Sith after the events of K1 was based on necessity. If DS he could no longer deny his own inability to control the StarForge (he hadn't controlled it - it had controlled him!), and if LS he had to face the fact that he could not embrace the dark side without his goals being perverted. So what does he do? He goes to the Sith empire, embraces the dark side, then begins building his own powerbase *within* the Sith empire to become its new ruler. If DS he does this because he won't let the StarForge twist his intentions anymore and because his converted jedi forces have now been squandered by Malak, and he remains confident that instead subvert the Sith empire and turn many of their people to his cause. If LS Revan realises that whatever happens, the dark side will try to twist his intentions again, so if he goes to the Sith empire before embracing it again, then his ambitions for power will be destructive internally to the true Sith and not harm the Republic. Maybe he even intends to fail and expects to perish before he can grow so powerful that he can threaten the Republic again, hoping that by then he has weakened the true Sith so much with civil war that it will be too weak to strike against the Republic.

I suppose the easy answer to that question is that he wanted to conquer and rule the Sith empire himself, and he needed the Republic's resources and manpower to do that...

Well, the exact quote is: Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order." So, yes, it could be a different Kae, but then she would also have had to leave for the war just as Arren Kae did, which I think is unlikely to the point of severe improbability, if not impossibility...

One thing I find to be missing from the "evidence" collected in Wikipedia is the significance of who tells us that Kae was exiled for having a child. Because we know that only from Kreia - nobody else ever says that was the reason. And, I mean, consider the source... "

The Exile is on his way to meet Visquis on Nar Shaddaa, when Mira stops him... Mira: "I know you got a message from the squid-head Visquis. He works for Goto, and it's a trap." Exile: "No? You think....?" "

My latest male exile (LS) is named Jel-Shar. Before that I used the name "Panar" (also LS male) and "Fatira" for my DS female exile. For K1 I remember only one name for Revan (male LS). It was "Bain"

Yup, you nailed our beloved Kreia

I guess that's one reason why there is little - since you have to do some planets before others, you just lose out on too many influence options, if you take certain planets first. A bunch of people will already be in the group by the time you leave Telos, but if you wait too long before going to Nar Shaddaa, it becomes very difficult to build enough influence with HK-47 and GOTO, especially if you're LS and want your mastery status back...

Nar Shaddaa refugee sector: Refugee: "Are you crazy? Those were Exchange thugs! They'll come back and tear you apart". Exile: "Let them - I can handle them. For now I need some information. Have you heard of a Jedi Master named Zez-Kai Ell?" Refugee: "There aren't any jedi left, let alone masters. But you're serious, aren't you? All right - well, look, if I were a Jedi, I'd be where I could help people. As for where that happens on Nar Shaddaa, I have no idea." Exile: "Yeah, I see your point. I mean, it's not as if I just saved you from the Exchange..." "

I usually don't build much influence with Mandalore, because there doesn't seem to be much point. He can't become a jedi, doesn't have much of a backstory (that you hear, at least), doesn't grant you any special abilities or bonus, and doesn't reveal any secrets at all... At least as far as I have experienced or read on any forum or in any spoilers or guides. Anyone have any experience with influence with Mandalore leading to *anything* at all?

No

Vandar was believed to have died at Katarr. But then again so was Atris. A couple of the Masters comment that they were surprised when the Exile says Atris is on Telos since they thought she died at Katarr. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but while we know that Atris lived (or indeed never went to Katarr at all), the problem if Vandar lives is that Nihilus' destruction on Katarr is reduced to almost nothing storywise, because if Vandar and several other masters did not die there after all, then what does it matter dramatically that the jedi there were killed by Nihilus? Nothing, because we don't care about the other jedi - we don't know them and never met them, so they are nothing to us. One thing I really didn't like in K2 was that the mentioned that both Zhar, Dorak and Vandar had perished on Katarr, because that means they all survived Malak's attack on Dantooine in K1, and if that is so, then why should we care about it, when none of the characters we knew there died. Vandar, Dorak and Zhar obviously all survived to then die on Katarr (or Vandar in the StarForge battle if Revan was DS), and naturally Vrook survived too, since we meet him again in K2... If they do a K3 and the player sets Revan to LS, I think they should mention that Juhani also died on Katarr...

I picked other. There are several reasons: 1. Loot I haven't seen before. 2. Explore the details of the game - K2's story is deep and filled with subtleties. The fact that the game is unfinishes makes revelations scarce, so replaying tends to shed some more light on stuff or put them in a different perspective entirely. 3. Because I feel like it...

Actually, I think Atris is a good argument for the Exile being male, since the male story, she was attracted to him and became bitter when he left the order and therefore her (Hell hath no fury...), whereas if the Exile is female, she just mutters something about everybody having their heroes, which seems really peculiar to me given that Atris was herself on the Council while the Exile was still only a padawan and not even a particularly strong jedi, judging from Vandar's "average student of the force" comment to Vrook.

I thought the the Exile had already been established as LS male by canon. Guess I was wrong... Still, odd that the art clearly shows the same male Exile for both LS and DS if the Exile is female...

Because that was the fate he resisted at Malachor V. No, I don't agree. If there is one thing consistent about Kreia throughout the game, then it's that she cares more about being right in her theories and teachings than anything. She constantly wants the Exile to listen to her advice, but she has problem being threatened or used as long as the Exile does so. Kreia was exiled by the jedi, because they her teachings as misguided, flawed and corrupting. If Kreia wanted to kill the force, then why did she wait around on Malachor V for the Exile to stop her? Because her intention wasn't to actually kill the force as much as being confirmed in her theories and teachings and proving that the jedi were wrong about her. Anakin wasn't born until close to 4000 years after KotOR2... Besides, Anakin didn't defy the force so much as the jedi simply misinterpreted the meaning of the prophecy (which is always the problem with prophecies...). Not at all the same thing, methinks. I don't think Revan defied the force so much as manipuated it. I think he realised what the consequences of his actions would be, but he also manipulated the circumstances so they would hopefully yield the results he planned. It didn't quite work for him, though, or else he was more himself more powerful than he anticipated. I think Kreia's comment that you mention here referred more to the fact that the Exile lived for a decade without ever using the force even though he was a jedi and as such had come to depend on it a great deal - compare this with her comments to Atton while the Exile sleeps upon arriving to Telos about how helpless the jedi are without the force. That was my take on it, at least.

Really? Personally I want to begin as a jedi again (without losing the initial force powers on level 1 as the Exile did), so my vote went to "true Jedi"...

If it were yet another K3 thread, then I'd agree. However, it is not - note the poll? While suggestions for a K3 game do indeed belong in the "official" K3 topic, I don't agree that this counts in a poll. Otherwise you're suggesting that it's okay to use polls to ask people what they think of all sorts of games, except when that relates to K3, which seems very odd to me. But as someone said, this is not very diplomatic. I won't tell other people to shut up, but I do think it's pretty impolite to spam a topic with inflamatory comments simply for the ulterior motive of getting the mods to lock it, and I do tend to suspect that agenda at work in some of the replies here (not yours), which is just sad... :angry:

I don't see the problem. The subject is clearly marked, so if people hate K3 threads so much, then it's a pretty simple matter to simply ignore the topic, isn't it? No need for K3 bashers to spam this or any other topic dealing with K3 - if you think the prospect of K3 is a problem, then build a bridge and get over it!

I don't see it quite that way. Kreia's goal wasn't so much to prove nihilism as it was to prove that the force could be defied and even wounded. Kreia threatened the force, and since the will of the force dictated the Exile to fall to the dark side, Kreia's triumph lies in letting the Exile become the savior of the force by saving it from her. And the fact that he does proves her point, because if she was wrong, then there would be no need for the Exile to stop her in the first place. Kreia's didn't want to destroy the force, she just wanted to prove her point, and she did. How about Marka Ragnos, who appears as an evil force ghost in Jedi Academy some 5000+ years after his death?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't leave the game feeling unsatisfied because the game had dark or nihilistic content - I left feeling unsatisfied because huge parts of the plot were brutally and mercilessly cut and left us with a game that took a huge left turn as soon as you got closer to the end. It's not the plot or the writing that's the problem in K2 IMHO, because I actually like the story. The problem is that it was rushed and they didn't get to finish it, so we're left with a story that gets cut short *exactly* at the point where it is supposed to reveal its secrets and unmask its villains. On the first playthrough I just wondered if I'd missed something, because I didn't get what was going on. And you sense how it was all cut even when you meet the masters - they rush through the whole thing instead of gradually building to the revelation you're faced. The result is just bad storytelling. But it's quite true that there are other problems. The AI is indeed woefully bad, and the influence system, while a novel invention, is too simplistic (why does Handmaiden criticize me and lose influence when I do bad things, when she herself had DS mastery, for example?). The random loot system doesn't work as well as intended, either... But these things I can overlook as long as they don't stop the game. I don't play for combat - if I did I might just as well play some Diablo II or whatever online. KotOR games I play to see what happens next in the story. It's worse with bugs that crash my system on occasion...