Jediphile

Well, I'll be bold enough to completely disagree there. Yes, an open skill system can seem daunting to a new player, but then that's why there are templates - just make up a character as a base, and then the player change from that. It works remarkably well in most skill-based games, since it has all the archetype of the classes and none of the restrictions.

The OD&D classes were good, and since Mystara was the original setting, they have always been there. They make just as much sense in other setting, though, and newer Mystara material no longer uses the original ideas for the paladin and similar classes. Well, how about that there have never been any before? What I really don't like in 3e is how they wanted to allow everything, so suddenly there are gnomish paladin/thief/necromancers and halfling ranger/sorcerors jumping right out of nowhere - there is no basis for them in the Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms setting, as the rules never allowed them before, but they do now, and so we must have them. Same thing about dwarven wizards, which is a really silly idea - it's just plain stupid that 3e insists on allowing that, and yet continues to enforce the same rigid class-system that keeps you within your fixed archetype. Sure, you can now mix the archetypes in completely ridiculous ways, but you still must accept them. Uhmmm...

Yeah, I do the same. The dwarven fighter/cleric and the human ranger both have deities that grant priest spells to them. I never liked the idea of serving a concept and gaining priest spells for it. There most be something there to grant them for loyalty... and take them away for disloyalty. Besides, slowly removing a PC's spells from the higest level and down is a wonderfully effective way to communicate that his deity is not pleased - then they usually become good little choirboys quickly

You can do the same with AD&D Paladins.. Don't forget anti-paladins as well. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OD&D paladins were much better IMHO - you had to reach level 9 and as a fighter and then swear allegiance to a church that accepted paladins, then you got a few spells to cast on top of your warrior ability and ability to turn undead - all as a priest of one-third of your level IIRC. That was much better than the 2e or 3e paladins, where you just decide whether you want to play on or not. In OD&D it was a goal you had to sacrifice something to reach, so it was a big accomplishment when it happened. That's all down the drain in 2e and 3e, though some have considered a Defender prestige class that works similarly in 3e... And yes, OD&D had paladins who were not good - the Knight was neutral and the Avenger evil (well, chaotic, but it translated into the same thing). But it's 3e now and you can play gnomish paladin/thief/necromancers...

That can be fun, so fair enough, but I for one would appreciate it if nobody did it in this particular topic - I don't want Team Gizka to grow tired of us and drop the project because of how we behave here. They're people doing something many of us really want to see, and they're doing it all out of the kindness of their hearts, so let us not tempt them with the lure of the dark side As far as I'm concerned, the fanboys are fair game everywhere else, but please not on this topic, since it's more than just another discussion now - it's become an voice for the TSL Restoration Project, so we should probably keep the tone very serious and sincere. After all, Dashus and the others can still post on other topics, if they feel like it.

You know, the whole time I kept thinking, what if Tipoca is really a sort of Blofeld-like villain trying to bring the very melting of icecaps about that he predicts, so that he can attain world domination... And you helped him by your actions

Sure. Part 1: Coruscant opening Part 2: Alderaan, Myrkr and Sleheyron Part 3: Showdown with Nihilus/Exile Part 4: Sith Empire - Khar Delba, Khar Shian and Ziost Part 5: Endgame on Coruscant and Endings Thanks. Incidentally, if anyone wants info on Sleheyron, you can read developer David Gaider's original ideas on the Bioware forum as intended in KotOR1 (yes, they did cut a planet, and yes, I have posted this link before...) I had much more detail originally (see the part 1 link above). Basically I intend the early tone to underscore the dire situation for the jedi order (or rather lack of jedi order) and how it hurts the republic. Before you get into the big plot, I want to demonstrate that the order is falling apart due to all the jedi that have been killed in the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War, the Sith Lords war... Very few are left, and the order's "masters" are really just the Exile's companions trying to rebuild the order, so you have the PC and master out doing 'jedi business' that really should be handled by much more experienced jedi. But there aren't any, so... and the criminal elements are having a field day on Coruscant smuggling things in and doing mafia-type extortion, killing the innocent, etc. I want something like the KotOR1 murder investigation and Ep. II "Jedi business" stuff just to showcase what jedi do when they don't fight the Sith in horrible wars. We've seen that, but never really played it. I don't like the idea of setting up a quest where you look for x number of parts on y number of planets before you can progress in the plot. I'd rather have x be smaller and then have more plot developments along the way. Maybe it is too short, but it's just a skeleton where more can be added, after all. For example, I give very little details on Sleheyron or Khar Delba, which could be huge worlds. That's because I cut my description so someone might actually read the plot. Yes, there are few planets, but there is room for more. I'd rather aim low and then expand than aim high and then have to cut - they did that in both KotOR games, and the last one suffered horribly from it. Again, I shorted my description. See the part 5 link above, and you'll see I wrote a LS ending with details for the new character, Revan, and Exile specifically (and Jolee, if he's there) No, there would be confrontations with criminals on Coruscant. It just wouldn't be highly violent for level 1, but once you reach level 2 and get your lightsaber, it's off to the streets of Coruscant to do some 'jedi business' with your master. Anyway, thanks for showing interest - Influence gained

Very cute movie. Thanks for sharing it.

I have never heard of an orc, dwarven or elven (or whatever) paladin. Last time I checked all paladins I've ever heard about in fantasy are human. EDIT: It is nonsense like being able to have dwarven paladins that makes 3E too silly for me. AD&D is da sh!t. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 3e allows dwarven wizards... Better not get me started on that one... Or those awful sorcerors

That was a low blow Besides, I don't recall you complaining when I posted pages upon pages of Nihilus/Exile speculation. But fine, I'll give it a try. Basically I would have the character begin as young padawan training on Coruscant. It all begins a year or so after KotOR2, and a few jedi are trying to rebuild the order by training new younglings to become padawans. The PC is one of them. You set alignment/gender of Revan and Exile during history classes. If Exile is LS, then the major jedi on Coruscant are the Exile's companions - Atton teaching mental resistance, Handmaiden history, etc. Upon reaching level 2 you make your lightsaber (with the help of master Bao-Dur) and go to learn the ropes with your own master. This boils down to fairly generic 'jedi business' on Coruscant - solving murders, catching smugglers, breaking up brawls, etc. The plot begins in earnest all the 'masters' and the PC feel a "disturbance" in the force. Visas is then found unconscious, and upon awakening explains that she has felt something that she only felt once on Katarr, when Nihilus destroyed her world. Nihilus has returned, and he is still draining worlds of life. Fearing another attack on the few jedi trying to rebuild the order, they decide to separate and go into hiding. The PC and his or her master take a several younglings to safety on Alderaan (perhaps on the Ebon Hawk, not sure...). There are Sith assassins on Alderaan, however, and while investigating them the jedi get help from the mysterious Tawyn, a shady but knowledgable character (scoundrel), but you're never sure which side Tawyn is really on. Eventually this leads to a confrontation with the Sith, where the PC's master is killed, but instead the PC meets Bastila. Whether good or evil (as per Revan's alignment), Bastila is still looking for Revan. Either way, the PC must work with Bastila to discover Revan's fate. They discover that the Sith assassins reveals that they infiltrated Alderaan with the help of smugglers working on Myrkr, though their ship came from Sleheyron. The group must now go both these worlds to find more clues (order irrelevant). On Myrkr the group will be forced into the jungles immediately, when Czerka confiscates their ship to keep their base here secret. In the jungle Bastila and the PC will find that their force powers no longer work. A chance for non-jedi to shine at last Captured wookies are used as slaves on Myrkr, but many have escaped over the years and live in the forests, where they clash with the native Neti (a plant-like species). Two people are trying to change that - Mission and Zaalbar. They want the wookies to unite into a tribe with Zaalbar as their leader and then side with the native Neti (a plant-like species) and stop Czerka. Another wookie challenges that, though, and want the wookies to just kill the Neti. He is a mercenary secretly hired by Czerka, who want the wayward wookies to clear the forests for them. Obviously this wookie is Hanharr (yes, I'm assuming Mira would have refused to kill him). Pretty obvious light/dark side choice here. Mission/Zaalbar or Hanharr will join the group depending on the choice, but only until the group leaves Myrkr. Either way, after resolving all this, the group can find the info they need from the smugglers' ship's computer. It is corrupted, however, and only partial, so the info from Sleheyron is also required. Sleheyron is a world mercilessly ruled for profit and power by competing Hutts. It's a place with lots of powergames, though none of the Hutts are nice people. There is a LS choice in the form of an undergroup trying to improve the situation. If Revan is LS, this group is led by an again jedi called Jolee Bindo. Basically this is a place to play the Hutts against each other or side with Jolee and work against them, so the PC can work for the Hutts to get the info they need, or they can side with Jolee to slice the Hutts' computers. The data is complete, but encrypted. However, with the data from Myrkr, this will let the group find the location of the location where Darth Nihilus' advance fleet is waiting on the edge of the Republic. This leads to a big space battle, where most of the Sith advance fleet is destroyed, and where all the jedi from Coruscant gather with the PC and Bastila to confront Nihilus. They defeat Nihilus, but are shocked when they remove the mask. Nihilus is the Exile. It turns out that the Exile follow Revan to the unknown regions. He found Revan, but Revan had turned DS again and challenged the current dark lords for the rule of the true Sith Empire and so started a civil war among the true Sith. Revan had few followers, but trained more on the old hidden fortress of Naga Sadow on Khar Shian, the moon of Khar Delba. When the Exile found Revan, Revan revealed the Exile's true nature to him by making him see that Nihilus had always been his own dark side that he had cut off from himself on Malachor V during the Mandalorian Wars. The Exile has a unique gift to cut himself off from the will of the Force, but in doing so he separated himself from the true nature of what his actions had made him into. He had cut off the part of himself much as a person can cut off an arm or leg infected with gangrene, except that this was a mental separation, and so the Exile had created a sort of 'force neurosis', which had manifested itself in Nihilus and then taken the body of a dead jedi as a host. When the Exile had 'killed' Nihilus, he had simply reconnected with his own dark half, though he had not admitted as much to himself at the time (this is why he took Nihilus' mask). Doing so also cut his force bond with Kreia, though he had also failed to realize that. The PC must now use his empathic powers to sense all this and either turn the Exile LS again or use this information to ally with the Exile (DS). The Exile then joins the group, and they leave for Khar Shian in the true Sith Empire. Entering Sith space will get them shot down, though (yes, you knew it would happen), and they crash on Khar Delba. Now they must find a way to reach the moon of Khar Shian (similar to the Dxun/Onderon situation in KotOR2). Lots of hiding and fighting the Sith here. Also, good opportunities for demonstrating how harsh a Sith world would really be - that would be a must! Khar Shian is overrun by Revan's dark apprentices/padawans, who are not exactly happy to see them. Lots of battles, but eventually the group finds holovids of Revan's battles with the Sith and learn that the Sith would have already assaulted the Republic with huge fleets, had it been for Revan's civil war against them. They also learn that Revan is now held captive on the central Sith world of Ziost, though. The Sith can be stopped only by challenging the ruling dark lord, and since only Revan can do that, the group must now infiltrate Ziost and free him. They can do so after lengthy challenges only to find that Revan has been told that his old jedi "friends" are coming to kill him before he can become a threat to them. Being thoroughly DS Revan believes this, so when the group finds him, they must fight him while Bastila uses her bond to inspire trust in Revan while the PC uses his empathic abilities to sense his motives. The DS/LS choice comes when determining what to do next. The DS choice is to betray Bastial and the Exile and help Revan kill them, then become Revan's apprentice (until he too can be killed). If that happens, the PC and Revan go off to Coruscant, which is now under attack by the fleets of the Sith. Together they then confront and kill the dark lord on his flagship, overthrow the republic and then rule both it and the Sith Empire. The LS choice is longer. Revan and Bastila must lead a group to fight the dark lord by boarding his flagship during the space battle over Coruscant, while the Exile joins with Mandalore to lead the Mandalorians in battles against the group troops of Sith that have landed on Coruscant. The PC leads a third group, which must reach the jedi temple and help save the younglings (returned after the threat of Nihius was over) from being killed or captured by the Sith.

Yes, I'd agree there, which is one reason why I went for even more attributes in my own system instead of fewer. That said, I didn't like all the WoD stats. Do you really need a separate attribute for manipulation? I think that should rely on both high charisma and high intellect as well as high values in certain skills (persuasion?). GURPS works fine, but it only has four attributes, which is a tad low IMHO. D&D has six, but their use don't exactly make much sense. Why Strength affects to-hit probability is something I'll never understand, unless it is purely for purposes of balance - it makes no sense, and the only stat that would is Dexterity. However, if you let Dex affect to-hit in D&D (just as it does for ranged attacks), then Dex will affect both to-hit, initiative rolls, surprise rolls, and even AC, and that's just a bit too useful for just one stat. I guess that's why they put the melee to-hit modifier on Strength instead, even though it makes no sense at all. I would have just split Dexterity instead. In my own system I thought about having both Dexterity (which was straight agility and ability to dodge), Reaction (which was a mental and not physical stat), and Precision (straight hand-eye coordination).

If I can make someone's day, then I try to. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> - Light Side Point gained - :D

Sure, but don't forget that Malak's attack on Dantooine was centered on the Jedi enclave and the starforge map. He really couldn't care whether any of the other rabble lived or died and wouldn't waste laser fire on them. Taris was a different matter, however, because the point was to kill the entire planet just so that he could be certain to get rid of Bastila. Even then I don't think it's a planetwide destruction, but since we did see the attack being centered right on the area where Revan and Bastila were active, I doubt the Undercity could have survived, seeing as how it was directly underneath. And as for Dantooine, just how many survivors from KotOR1's Dantooine did we meet in KotOR2's Dantooine?

Hmmm, I don't know... It's not impossible, but implausible IMHO. It would be like a sudden revival of Master Vandar narrowly escaping Malak's forces during the Starforge battle or leaving Katarr just before Nihilus struck - not impossible, but a very convenient and disappointing revival of a character we were told was dead...

Well, I suggested an Initiate who turned out to have empathic force powers that were vital to how the plot evolved, but nobody bothered to comment on that idea... As for the Outcast, I think the idea is okay, but it does have one big problem - it's totally dependent on Revan making the light side choice for the the outcasts of the Undercity in KotOR1. If you chose the dark side ending, then they were all crushed under the rubble of Taris' destruction. Now, I don't really mind the game making assumptions for the choices. If you set Revan to light side in KotOR2, then Kreia will comment that Revan converted the spirit of Ajunta Pall back to the light side on Korriban, but although that was indeed an option in KotOR1, it was actually really hard to do - you needed very good Persuasion indeed to pull that off, so chances were really against it ever happening. I don't mind they did that, though. But I don't want the game to assume something that is contrary to the alignment I set for my previous characters. If I set Revan to dark side, then the people of the Undercity should all be dead. KotOR games seem to rationalize these things to avoid conflict for the choices. Note how Master Vandar was killed in battle if Revan was dark sided in KotOR1, but said to have been killed with the other masters by Nihilus on Katarr if you set Revan to light side, just so that he is dead and gone either way and won't ever cause a conflict or inconsistency in the game.

Thanks for the link. Interesting. Although the site doesn't seem to have been updated for a year (which is rarely a good sign...), it still has some good information on it. Don't like the d6 so much, since it also has the D&D to make building stats far more attractive than skills, but even then it might be a good basis for some ideas.

The problem with that is that we all have different ideas for storylines that we would like to see. I do try to make a point of commenting when I see one, since nobody could be bothered to comment on mine, and I didn't much like that. But Vagrant and I are scarcely the only ones to suggest plots for KotOR3. Trouble is that if people here aren't interested in reading story proposals, how can we expect Obsidian or whomever to read them? So after you've tried a couple of times, you just stop, and then it's all down to people suggesting hooded robes and black-colored lightsabers or whatever...

All those systems are better than GURPS.. Lemme add one more.. Savage Worlds looks pretty nifty too. EDIT: I am not too sure that d20 is better than GURPS though :darque: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And I'm pretty sure they're all worse than GURPS... I certainly think that both d20 and d6 are.

I have both editions of GURPS, and though I haven't studied the whole thing down to the letter, they look very much the same, so I think you sourcebooks are just as relevant in GURPS 4rd Ed. as in 3rd Ed. It's nowhere near like the D&D 2e to 3e switch, which was a totally different game.

Sure, but I tend to see something like that as a tool in case the GM and players are not going to be bothered to role-play a situation - role-playing the party's visits to 10 shops in a town can drain your incentive to play like crazy. Besides, any good GM will take PC behavior into consideration - of course they're not going to get a favorable response if they persist in telling everybody they meet just how stupid and ugly they are

Already?!? Isn't GURPS 3rd edition almost 15 years old or so? Besides, 4th edition looks a lot like 3rd edtion as far as I can tell... I guess they didn't want to alienate any of the fanbase...

Well, I'd recommend Call of Cthulhu, especially 5th edition (pre d20) if you can get it. I've played some of World of Darkness, a bit of Exalted (which is not horror) and a good deal of Vampire, but Vampire never seemed much like a horror game to me - it's much more about keeping the truce between the vampires and humans and other beings than it is about being scared or scaring others. Cthulhu, however, is definitely horror. It's the only game I know of to have extensive rules for sanity that are used constantly, because facing the unspeakable monsters from beyond can clearly leave quite insane if you're not careful (and frequently even if you are...). Be warned, though, that characters die by the dozen in Cthulhu, so it's not for the faint of heart. And death is often violent and nasty in Cthulhu.