Jediphile

Clearly Vandar and Zhar were not on the jedi council on Coruscant at the time. Looking at the KotOR comic books, it seems that Vandar was on the "council" at the enclave on Dantooine, though, and perhaps Zhar was too. This suggests that Vrook left the council on Coruscant to teach at the enclave. Hmm, that actually redeems the masters a little in my eyes, since it means they finally realised his charming personality and kicked him out

Actually, it needs to be better than K2, since it needs to bring closure to several characters (not least Revan and Exile) as well as have a huge climactic ending that ties in with the other two games. But killing off characters is essential to underscore the danger of the main characters and the point that no great victory can be achieved without sacrifice. That said, I did something along the lines of what you suggest in my own plot... Albeit with a few bitter consequences, particularly for Revan

And how reasonable is it to exile her for having a child, especially when considering that Jolee trained his wife against the council's wishes, watched her fall to the dark side, failed to kill her when she tried to murder him, then went on to kill other jedi? Jolee was forgiven, but his crime was far greater than Kae's. Unless, of course, the reason we hear for Kae's exile is not what the real reason she was exiled. And given that it is Kreia who tells us that (Disciple tells us Kae was exiled as well, but not why), that can certainly suggest something else. Arren Kae was a female Jedi Master before the Mandalorian Wars. She was one of the many masters to train Revan, and she later followed him to war against the Mandalorians. You're right in your speculation, but not the conclusion, because Kae is indeed exiled just before the Mandalorian Wars, which is very close to 10 years before K2. Clearly Brianna had already long since been born by then. She wasn't long gone. Just like Kae, Kreia was exiled for her teachings just before the Mandalorian Wars. Convenient, isn't it? Not really. People just have to accept that we just don't know. The timeline does fit remarkably well for the purpose of having Kae be Kreia. Still, that does not mean that she is Kae. We don't and can't know that Kae is Kreia. We also don't know and can't know that Kae is not Kreia.

We have no idea where Exile is from. Revan says he is from Deralia (or at least has the option to), though he does that under the assumption that he is the personality that the jedi have programmed onto him. I do not see much reason for the jedi to lie, however, since a lie looking a lot like the truth is more convincing than one that doesn't, and Deralia is unknown anyway. That is, unless Revan came from some place that it was really dangerous for him to realise. Given that Kreia suggests he came from the outer rim and has sort of tie to the ancient Sith that might seem relevant to at least consider. Still, I'll go along with Revan being from Deralia until there is reason to think otherwise (reasons other than fanboy-dreams of Revan's background of ultimate power, that is). Deralia is just a name, so there is no reason to dismiss it as Revan's homeworld yet, I think.

I can't remember Kreia saying ANYTHING LIKE THAT. Is there any cut dialogue from Kreia like that? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's incorrect. There seems to be this popular theory among some fans that there is some all-powerful Sith somewhere that nobody ever heard about because they're oh-so-secretive and powerful. Some also tie these with the original Sith species, as if they were somehow great and powerful DS-users, when they were really just simplistic humanoids on Korriban enslaved by the dark jedi exiled by the jedi order during the Second Great Schism. Sadly popular theories would seem to have far more lives than cats...

What good third-party 3e stuff is there? I haven't seen or heard of any that grows beyond the realm of straight dungeon crawl or pure hack 'n slash or both... I'll stick with the classic OD&D adventure modules if I want quality, thank you very much - "Night's Dark Terror", "The Veiled Society", "Saga of the Shadow Lord", "Skarda's Mirror", or "Castle Amber" are all much better than the stuff being pushed today... (Hmm, those are all Mystara...)

Not sure why Korriban was split into two options here, since pretty much unchanged between the games. Still, I consider it creepier in K2 due to the tomb and the mysterious visions. K1 only had some caves and an unspooky academy, where K2 had an empty academy that was foreboding to explore, because you were always wondering what would jump in your face next. Malachor wasn't creepy. It was far too clich

Clearly I can't be away for long without the board going crazy - I cannot believe people have allowed this misconception to slip through the radar. 1. Yes, the Handmaiden Sisters honour the face of their mother. 2. BUT: They do not have the same mother as Brianna does - that's why Brianna is the "last of the Handmaidens", looks a bit different than her sisters, and is generally looked down upon by them, since they sense their father's "betrayal" in her. So the claim that the sisters would have looked like Kreia is a nonissue - there is no suggestion that she was ever their mother. There is, however, basis for speculating that Kreia and Arren Kae might be the same person and so Brianna's mother. But no, there is no conclusive evidence to support OR reject the idea. We just don't know. No one can prove that Kreia is Arren Kae and so Brianna's mothers, but nobody can prove that she isn't either.

Not sure if it counts, but you just have to love the clipping errors, especially how you can see the inside of Bastila's mouth in her hologram, or when a character has a vibroblade or similar and is standing behind another seated character during a cutscene and repeatedly pokes the bloody thing through the other characters chair and body... Not sure I ever managed to freeze upon entering a new area myself, though the game has crashed inexplicably on occasion. But then all games seem to, so I don't count that. Didn't happen more often than in some games either...

But that's just the problem - there are few good 2e products, because most of the available material is, to be blunt, crap - it's just shameless hack 'n slash or dungeon crawling with little or no interesting plots or characters. 3e is geared towards that, but 2e has the potential for more. Heck, even the 2e stuff released for Mystara is pretty bad. It never ceases to amaze me that WotC said they viewed their customers as adult people and not as children like TSR did, but what they release still suggests that they they have a pretty low opinion of their customers, if you ask me... Fate of Istus or Five Shall Be One are decent adventures in (2e) Greyhawk campaign. Night's Dark Terror or Wrath of the Immortals are excellent adventures for the OD&D (Mystara) game. But they just don't make them like they used to...

I'd be curious to see how you respond to my own theory of Nihilus' origin... EDIT: Oh, and do read the topic on from that point on - my discussion with Metadigital filled in a lot of the blanks. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> YOUR THEORY? YOUR THEORY!? I had that idea... 2 posts before yours! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You posted something before I explained my theory, yes, but if you go back to post 6 of that topic, you'll note that I strongly hint at my speculations and is then promptly asked about it by Sinbreaker in the very next post. So while you may have said it first, I did have my idea before you said it. Then again, you would have to take my word that I did not change my theory in the meantime, which I do realise is asking a lot...

Exile can learn force powers instantly without training? Wow! I must have missed that as I tried to learn Force Storm, Force Wave, and whatnot... I'd like to know where you picked those up instantly, since I must have missed that part of the game...

I'd be curious to see how you respond to my own theory of Nihilus' origin... EDIT: Oh, and do read the topic on from that point on - my discussion with Metadigital filled in a lot of the blanks.

Yeah, i can see that perspective applying. The issue i have with that though is to allow for the possibility for Kreia to be redeemed, the others have to be killed. Since apathy is death thus Exile must chose between the two (pertaining to Kreia's potential redemption vs companions' lives), that then is placing the chance for Kreia's redemption ahead of the lives of Exile's companions. Which doesn't seem particularily LS to me. Especially when considered in the bigger picture. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess it depends on the perspective. If the companions are as hellbent on killing her no matter what as they are in that vision, then they are scarcely being LS. Basically what the Exile does if s/he defends Kreia is to say that they should all calm down and consider the matter, but the other companions force the issue and insist on murdering Kreia no matter what. That's DS behaviour.

True enough. Just follow the following link if you want a complete spoiler of all that Wookieepedia has to say about Kreia.

Anything's possible. There could be an announcement by the time I write this for all I know. We just don't know. So I'm not holding my breath. I'd just get disappointed (and probably dead) if I did

Pardon me, but you're the one who keeps arguing powerlevels, crystal powers, and so on. Those are all stats, and stats are gameplay, not story. And the stats are silly compared to the plot no matter how you look at it. Consider the saber battle in "Return of the Jedi". According to the d20 RPG rulebook (which is what the KotOR stats are based on), Darth Vader was at least an 18th level character (Fringer 1/Jedi Guardian 11/Sith Lord 6, stats from beginning of Episode IV), while The Emperor was a level 20 character (Noble 4, Dark Side Devotee 6, Sith Lord 10 - stats as per Episode VI). Luke, however, is described as being (at the end of the film) a 9th level character (Fringer 2/Jedi Guardian 7). Now how the heck did Luke *ever* win that fight?!? Even the Star Wars writers say that the stats should be taken with several grains of salt. If the creators want to do a story where Mace Windu, Revan, Exar Kun, Exile, Palpatine and whomever else join together and fight a lone Luke Skywalker, then Luke will win if that's what the writers want to happen in the plot. Period. That's funny... Because I could have sworn I saw Yoda fight some pretty serious saber battles in the two most recent movies... But then I must be remembering it wrong...

Explaining Kreia's philosophy would be a major spoiler of the game, and since we're in the general forum, I don't think we should get into it. Suffice it to say that she respects those who can live without being dependent on using the force. Hence her comment to Atton while the Exile is sleeping (on Telos) about how helpless many jedi are without the force, because they lack the skills that other people have.

I prefer two lightsabers. Because I can put more stat-modifying crystals in two than in one :cool:

If Lucas wants the game made, then it will be made, yes. Period. However, LA seems to have a policy of producing only a set number of Star Wars games per year (not sure how many), and they seem to stick fairly close to that policy on the basis that there will otherwise be too many Star Wars games that compete with each other, and so hurt sales figures. Yes, I'd agree that Lego Star Wars 2 does not target the same demographic as KotOR3 would, but whatever LA says goes, so... Obsidian really doesn't have much choice here. They've said they'd take on the challenge of KotOR3 in a second, which is about as much as they can say, since it really is not up to them. LA owns Star Wars and gets to call all the shots. Obsidian gets to accept it or not do further Star Wars games...

That would be lame, Lame, LAME, and not Obsidian-ish. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If it means coming back as a clone in the sense that Palpatine did, then yes, it would be boring and unoriginal. I don't think it was inappropriate for Palpatine (it actually answered a few questions that didn't make sense to me before), but I do think it's not appropriate for Nihilus, who was very close to being a force ghost to begin with. However, that does not preclude the possibility that he might "return" in some other form, I think.

You defend her with the line, "I will protect you, Kreia, so that you may be redeemed later." That's clearly LS in my book, and it's then up to your other companions, whether they agree that Kreia can be redeemed, or whether they insist on destroying her even if the Exile vows to protect her.

Definitely the Galactic Civil War - it decided whether the jedi would return or whether the Sith would finally win once and for all, plunging the galaxy into darkness from which there would seem to be no hope of escape.

Definitely Jedi Sentinel/Jedi Master in my experience. Lots of skills, uber-force powers, and still very good lightsaber potential.

[Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] [snip Sion quotes] So, it does explain alot about Sion, why he does what he does, why he wants to kill female Exile even with him falling for her. It does not specifically state why he sees her as beautiful nor why she in particular has that effect on him, but i think it is safe to assume part of it is they can feel eachothers' presences within eachother, and she was able to deny the Force and was thus free of the strangle hold the Malachor V wound has on him. And those are good reasons. But does the quality lie in the romance or in Sion's complexity? Because the latter you certainly get in the male version of the game as well - you still have to convince Sion that the existence he has lived has not been worthwhile and that Kreia chose the Exile over him, because the Exile was able to give up the force, and that there is strength in that. I agree that this works plotwise, but you don't have to play the female Exile to experience it. The male version is just the same, except the early lines are different, because Sion sees the male Exile as a hated competitor for Kreia's affections and nothing else. But you still have to make Sion examine the value of his own existence and make him see that it is not worthwhile, which erodes his will. The last lines you quote are just the same for the male Exile, so in the end, Sion accepts the value in giving up the force from the male Exile just as much as he did from the female Exile. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Mical was over the top voice acted and his character was writen as very soft spoken and gentle. He is seen as submissive and spineless because of it. But he isn't spineless nor submissive as i pointed out before. i personally don't like how he was voice acted either. It felt disingenuous and even a little, well, creepy. But when i look beyond that into what he actually says and does throughout the game, i see there is more to his character. As far as his love story goes, well, it certainly isn't the most passionate piece of buring love in history, and it doesn't have a frantic nor longing filled drive behind it. Mical is more serene and Jedi-like in that sense unlike the others, especially Atris and Brianna. Just look at how calm he is when he and Kreia finally do get into it eventhough he figures out she has been messing with him and Exile the whole time etc. Some feel that is boring. That is ok. Jedi generally would be boring in that sense since their behaviour and way of life is intentionally passionless. But he does make a contrast to the other cast in that he isn't pushing down his feelings nor is he letting them control him. He is a pretty centred fellow. I'm not really about to disagree with any of this. I don't particularly hate Mical, I just don't think that he is very interesting. But do I think he has value in the game? Sure, I do. But given that we can only choose either him or Brianna to be in the game (by our choice of gender), the question simply becomes which character I find to be more interesting, and here Brianna wins hands down. She is a far more interesting character than Mical to me, and her "betrayal" of Atris adds depth to the plot as I see it. When I played male, I thought after speaking with Mical (in the jedi enclave), "gee, what a paperpusher...". But then he contacted Carth (or Cede) and gave a secret report, and I thought, "well, maybe there's more to this guy than meets the eye...". After that playing a female Exile, however, was disappointing, because my conclusion was "no, there isn't - he just isn't that interesting..." So that makes an argument in favor of the male Exile in my book. You don't like Brianna sparring in, well, the nude or close to it. Fair enough, you have every right to your opinion, but I do not think that all women feel the same way as you do, so while you might see it as demeaning, I do not concur that Brianna does. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] But if Atton died there, it was "game over". Same with Mira when Hanhaar fights her. i thought it is in the engine that if all the controllable party members die, even if there is only one to control at the time, it ends the game. So if that is true, then Atton can't die fighting Sion if it is player controlled since the game would end. Unless it goes to a cut-scene before his hit points reach 0, sorta like they do with Sion and Kreia. But i don't think so 'cause that doesn't happen with player controlled characters. It did in Brianna's fight against Atris. She could win, then Atris would zap her to the ground in the next cutscene, and then the Exile arrives in time to save her. Or she could lose, then cut to cutscene with Brianna at Atris' mercy, then the Exile arrives to save her. That battle could be won or lost and still have the same outcome. [Jediphile] Still don't see how that applies to Atris... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]From what i have read, the general concensus is she is attractive, or otherwise refered to as "hot Jedi chick". She's not bad-looking, but I wouldn't go further in that. Any other attraction would, as I see it, come more from the challenge of melting the ice-queen than anything else... (sort of like Han Solo does with Leia in ESB) [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Sion: "I hate you because you crawl in my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken." Exile: "Sion, we need not battle - you have been a presence in my mind as well." i do not feel Sion's and Exile's dialogue leaves much room for interpretation on the point of whether they mean "on their minds" as in thinking about (self directed), vs "presence in my mind" as in feeling the other within eachother (not self-directed). Sion clearly states having feeling for the female Exile, yes. I don't think that it makes much sense (which is why I say that I think it hurts the plot and his character), but he does say it. But I don't see the Exile returning those feelings with the statement you make here. "You've been a presence in my mind" can mean a lot of things. It can just as well be the Exile trying to avoid the confrontation because she is afraid of Sion as anything else, and so she placates him by accepting his comments of affection. I do not see that this statement *must* be a confirmation that the Exile has feelings for Sion as well in any way - it can just as well mean that she is afraid of him. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] This is where i say "i am not sure about this since i can't remember that well, but i think Atris doesn't admit her feelings of love to male Exile nor vice-versa in the last confrontation between them", then you can go look it up in the dialogue text files and can prove/disprove my recollection of it. The option Exile has of saying: "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." sounds to me as if Exile is uncomfortable with the whole caring thing. And I see the similar toward Sion in the female Exile's "you've been a presence in my mind"-comment. But though the Exile may be uncomfortable about it, I do think that the line to Atris is more sincere than the female Exile's line to Sion is. The reason behind that is probably that the male Exile no longer has true feelings for Atris, if indeed he ever did, but that when he says this, he has already chosen to spare Atris' life. You do not have that choice with Sion, however, and therefore you can lie or be sincere with him regardless, since he must die in any event. For that reason I do not see the two as completely comparable. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]Exile is emotionally dense as it is, and is a rather dismissive person, so the fact Exile is so focused on her/himself when s/he is speaking about Atris' intence feelings ("I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me") to me suggests Exile is put off by the whole thing and does not realize the strength of Atris' feelings. Or worse, does, but has chosen to be cold and sterile about them. So, bringing this back to the issue of how much the NPCs personally affect Exile, i would argue Atris does not affect Exile deeply, nor does Exile care too much about her pain. Disagree at will... That doesn't make sense to me, because at the point where you say that line to Atris, you've already decided to spare her life. Then it would be truly cruel to lie right to her face, and letting Atris live is not the DS choice. It's true that the male Exile doesn't exactly reciprocate Atris' feelings here, but then how can he? If he doesn't feel that way about her, then it would be very wrong to do, and even if he did feel the same way, those feelings are the very thing that caused Atris' fall in the first place. Atris needs to distance herself from them before she can heal and become whole again, and the feelings she has would hinder that or even make it impossible. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] Trite and irrelevant, eh? Hmm... You would just have to read their dialogue options to agree that Sion has feelings for Exile, and that Exile potentially has feelings for Sion, and if not feelings for him in the attraction to and/or love for ways, than that he, at the very least, affects her. As i recall, i was defending my position that Sion is relevant when i pointed out the universal truth that if Exile feels Sion and/or thinks about him, that he is important to Exile. That Sion is important to Exile was being refuted. So why now am i being metaphorically spanked for having been put into the position of having to defend what is a universally applicable concept? Even if I accept that the principle you describe is true in general that does not mean that I must also accept that it is relevant to Sion and Exile. And I don't. Whatever Sion feels for the Exile, I see no evidence that Exile returns those feelings, and therefore your principle does not apply IMHO. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] As i recall, going back in the conversation thread, it was argued Sion and Atton's fight bears no significance because Sion has no personal history with Exile. Thus, your position was personal history is significant. i pointed out the faliciy in that line of thinking by showing how the personal history argument is being unequally applied as a term of point making since to lay claim to Mical's personal history with Exile not mattering, the whole value of using personal history with Exile as an argument basis is faulty. The view should be either; a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter. i asked if you were recinding your position on it because it is important for me to know where you stand on the issue. It is a point of contention afterall. i didn't mean to sound offensive by asking, it was a simple question, but it boils down to tone not being able to come across very well in writing... So, how do you feel about the personal history wtih Exile thing mattering vs not mattering now? (No sarcasm, offence, agitating, etc, intended) First of all, the point of whether a personal tie has relevance was made in the context of Mical having one vs. Brianna not having one - I did not not mention it in relation to the Sion/Atton fight (and I don't see how it applies there anyway...) Second, no, I'm not going to step into this trap either. "a) having a personal history with Exile doesn't matter, or b) having a personal history with Exile does matter." I do not accept your authority to make this a black-and-white issue, and it is a trap, since the true answer IMHO is the unspoken option c. What I said before was that it hurt the plot if *all* characters had to have a personal tie to the Exile past. Now, that clearly rules out option b. However, I did *not* say, "none of the character may have a personal tie to the exile's past", just that it would hurt the plot if *all* did. The logical conclusion is therefore that while *all* are not relevant, then *some* might. Therefore the correct answer is option c: "having a personal history with the Exile *can* matter, but doesn't have to". You get still get no brownie points, but I'm going to penalize you with demerit points for continual attempts to obscure the discussion. You don't need to see my identification - move along! [Jediphile] Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone. It is quite obvious that Atris is disappointed and disapproving of the Exile in this scene. Sure, you and I know that there are other emotions at work, but the masters wouldn't. I see Vash, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell getting the same disapproval and frustration from Atris as they undoubtedly do from grumply old Vrook. I do not see Atris revealing her emotions of love or admiration for the exile in that scene, or rather, I don't see that they are in any way obvious to the other masters. She just seems disappointed, disapproving of the exile's actions. I also see her being angry and vengeful, which is why Zez-Kai Ell steps in and tells her to mind her feelings. Her love/admiration for the exile, however, is not displayed in an obvious manner IMHO. So I fear you'll have to look for your plothole elsewhere. These are not the droids you're looking for... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] In this context, it doesn't matter if Atris' feelings for Exile are love or hero worship. What her feelings are at all, whether love, hate, anger, whatever, isn't what is important. It is the intencity of her emotions that is the problem. Her feelings are just too strong. That is the pertinent difficulty. Vrook did not go to the extent of saying Exile should have died on Malachor V, he doesn't get emtional, nor does he show open anger. He was rather calm as the rest of the Jedi Council members were. Master Kavar was once Exile's master, yet he was passionless. So the point i was getting at is Atris' feelings were quite an obvious problem. Plot hole reintroduced. Stormtrooper resisted the infamous Jedi mind trick. What will Obi-Wan do now?... Now, I know you read what you quote me for above, so why do you ignore the opening statement: "Having feelings is not the same as having feelings for someone." ? I'm having trouble with this, since it seems to me that that you're willfully ignoring which emotions are at work here. You accuse Atris of openly revealing her feelings *for* (meaning either love or admiration) the Exile here, yet when I point out that those precise emotions are not unveiled in this scene, you ignore my point and proceed to claim plothole, because Atris demonstrates *any* feelings at all. YES, SHE DOES, BUT WHICH FEELINGS? It is not irrelevant in this case, because jedi are allowed to have feelings, it's just a question of which ones. Feelings present in Atris in council scene: Disapproval, disappointment, anger, disgust. Feelings *not* overtly present in Atris in council scene: Love or admiration. Attempt to maintain flawed plothole accusation rejected. Yes, there are droids here, but *THESE* are not the droids you're looking for. Move along! [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] This is another discrepancy in the plot, though. i thought those who were taken to be converted were those who were LS and/or not loyal to Revan. i can't see why someone who is on Revan's side and loyal to Revan would need to be made loyal... *confusion* It would be a discrepancy only if Atton was a LS jedi. He was not. He was just an assassin/torturer working for the Sith, who found out that he was force sensitive. He explains how he had heard the stories of those who were found to be force sensitive among the Sith ranks and who were then forcibly removed from service for how knows what reasons (to be turned into dark jedi). It was only when Atton realised that he was himself force sensitive that he had to flee in order to avoid that fate. [Jediphile] Yes, they're both responsible, but neither of them can afford to see it that way. Well, at least Bao-Dur cannot, I'm still not certain about the Exile, who seems to be far more in denial. [moved for better chi:] Yes, that's precisely what he would do, because that means it was the Exile's choice and not his, and that is worse than accepting that he had no choice himself. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]i don't agree with that assessment (big surprise, eh?) i can understand what you are saying: he needs to feel he was solely responsible in order to keep his part in it "real", and for him not to feel as if he didn't have control in the MSG's use. Which, as a cheeky add in to another point of debate, makes Bao-Dur have a complex mind " *cough* Moving on... But i don't think that is why he refuses to let Exile be responsible for it. i think his part in it is much bigger than anyone else's. And his General could have been replaced by any other general, it wouldn't change the events. But without Bao-Dur, there would not have been a MSG. i don't think he is deluding himself on that point at all. i think the purpose is twofold. One: he does so to protect his General. He is aware s/he cannot face it nor handle it, and has taken it upon himself to protect her/him to the point he is willing to suppress his own feelings about Exile's reponsibility (and in this case, i do mean suppress. He does not allow himself to feel that at all). Two: it serves as a counter balance to how he feels about both the attrocity and himself. He sees, knows, feels the horror of Malachor V. He isn't at all deluded about that. The Jedi Civil War was a direct effect of the MSG activation. Those 2 put together are a helluva psychological and karmic burden to deal with. In allowing Exile to be free of the responsibility of those attrocities, it allows a wedge of that for himself as well. Anyway, that is how i see it at the moment. This does go against my theory he sees Exile as sacrosanct though... Hmm... They could work in conjunction though... I agree that Bao-Dur does suppress his insights regarding the Exile's responsibility, because that's the only way he can accept all the responsibility for himself. In a sense, Bao-Dur - in this context - is like Oppenheimer who was terrified by what his invention was used for, because while Oppenheimer saw the miracle of of his own ingenuity, the generals saw only its destructive potential and how it could be used strategically against the enemy. Bao-Dur has the same kind of experience, I think, only he still blames only himself and not the general. Bao-Dur accepts that as the inventor, the moral responsibility of his creation is also his, no matter what his creation is used for. Is he right? Ask a philospher - that's one for the ages, and one that we struggle with still in the real world. Like Malachor, that one echoes still... [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] i don't know. It was his job to make the MSG once the brass ordered it be made. I'm not certain about that. Are we ever told this? I do not recall a comment about Revan, Malak, or even the Exile ordering such a thing created and then commanded the engineers to figure out how, so I would assume this was something Bao-Dur thought up on his own volition. But I'm not sure... [Jediphile] To the male Exile? How is that any different for the female Exile? [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM]Because from what i've read, i don't think she can self-sacrifice for female Exile. It wasn't an option when i played female Exile. She can ask Visas if she could use the bond she and Nihilus share to weaken him, but the option for her to kill herself isn't given. i may have chosen the wrong dialogue options though. You're wrong there. I just checked the game to be certain and had no problem sacrificing Visas playing the female Exile. It's true that the option does not always present itself, but that has to do with a bug and not your choice of gender. Put standard clothes on Visas and equip her only with a vibroblade or lightsaber, and you'll get the option to sacrifice her every time, regardless of the Exile's gender. [Hekate,May 21 2006, 05:38 AM] i am not certain of what you are specifically refering to with your question of where i get that from. If you mean the population pyramid annalogy, i learned that in school, and i mentioned it so, how i saw how it was possible for there to be a lack of teaching age Jedi, could be understood. But if you mean my idea the Exar Kun Wars killed alot of Jedi; i am quite certain Jolee said so... Well, a lot of jedi did die in the Great Sith War, but I don't get the sensation that their ranks were depleted or close to it judging from how it all ends in the "Sith War" comic books, which is, after all, the original source of that information. The jedi assemble a fleet full of jedi vessels and fly to Yavin IV to confront Exar Kun. It even says, "thousands upon thousands of force wielders converge upon the small jungle moon" (yes, it just says "force wielders", but it does mean jedi, I think). At this point Exar Kun realises that Ulic has betrayed his location to the jedi. He then begins a ritual, which requires the sacrifice of all the Massassi warriors he has left. "Even as the jedi approach, Exar KUn prepares himself to unleash his powerful spirit... To shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos!" However, "The wall of light generation by many jedi becomes a crushing blow for the light side of the force... A flood that sweeps down to extinghuish the corrupted power of the Sith... and to stop Exar Kun." After that the jungles around the temple burst into flame, Exar Kun's forces are destroyed, and Exar Kun himself is trapped in his spiritform. No jedi are killed. So while many have been killed during the war, none of those "thousands upon thousands" are killed at the end of it.