Jediphile

Thank you

I get the impression that someone hasn't been looking at the M4-78 FAQ

That's doubtful. Hekate and myself can both be very verbose, but since we're both here, it's unlikely one of us will get away with anything. Besides, DAWUSS has also joined in on the long posts once or twice.

[Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Jediphile, as we delve into this deeper, it is getting more difficult to counter you. But we ain't through just yet... You shouldn't think of it as a struggle or competition. The point of the topic is not for one of us (or anyone else here) to "win", but us - collectively - to search for the truth or at least establish a concensus in some form (I find that seeing it that also has the benefit of making it far easier to accept it, when I have to concede a point to someone else ) [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] *be warned, humourous intent up ahead* Is it really fair to use the text dialogues to prove your point? *humourous threat has ended. Resume regular activities* Yup. Can't argue that. Brianna's dialogue is the same regardless, except for a "her" in place of a "him", the difference in Atris' dialogue is from the begining of your quote to the point where she speaks of judging Exile. So Atris loved male Exile. *sigh* What tangled webs we weave. ...especially when first we begin to deceive... [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Well, the point in admitting those emotions would be to let Brianna know she doesn't stand a chance, that's actually another reason for him to admit to those feelings, assuming he wants to have a chance with Brianna [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]for Exile to face reality, and for the player to have some clue what the heck is going on. Since everything the player gets to know on those subjects is through dialogues, it should be an indication of how Exile feels. *grumble* My apologies... [Jediphile]Possibly because I never played BG II and so didn't get the reference. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Blashphemer! Go rectify that right away. Choose Jaheira. Why would this surprise you - have we not already established me as one? [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]Exile cannot be compared to Regan in anyway. I was not making a direct analogy - I was just using Reagan as an example. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Ok, they are both human and have as much personality as wet noodles, but you know what i mean. Exile was a Jedi. Jedi do heroic things.It's what they are known for. Pillars of light and goodness, defenders of the Republic, and all that Jedi goodness. (i guess the US is a republic too so that doesn't count in not comparing them so shhh.) Actually, not all the jedi seem to think so highly of the Exile [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]And i wasn't suggesting hero worship just *bing!* springs into a person's heart like that. Obviously there does have to be some reason for it. What i was saying, though, is it doesn't have to have come from a massive one time event, although it could. Such things could develop over time. In a sense, friendship can be like that a little too. And i still don't think any feelings nor affections felt for others can be controlled nor artificially created. Looking up to someone may stem in logic and reasoning; however; there are people whose actions or philosophies one may look up to without feeling anything for that person. And there are people one can admire eventhough they aren't all that admirable. That is why i said hero worship, especially such a potent case of it as Atris has for Exile, is an emotion that can occur without explanation. i do understand wanting to know why and how Atris' feelings for female Exile came about. It could be that Exile is good at Force bonding and Atris isn't so she admires Exile for it. Hmmm. I don't see Atris admiring Exile for an innate ability (i.e., an ability that the Exile was born with and did nothing on his/her own to promote - Exile was, after all, completely unaware of it). Admiration usually comes from impressive things people have done willfully, I think. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] But we don't get graced with an explination, so we gotta go on what we got. Which is what I find hurts the story. If Atris loves the male Exile, okay. I don't need an explanation for that, because in most cases nobody can explain why they love someone else, but rather just know they do. But I don't think admiration works the same way, and therefore the male Exile's relationship with Atris seems more compelling to me than the female Exile's. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] We do know in the Council Chambers when Exile is being exiled, Atris is just as furious at female Exile as male Exile. And as i have stated in earlier posts, i think that is powerful for a person to react that strongly without attraction having been the catalyst. Attraction naturally increases the effect of one's emotions for the other person. Now comparing the 2, Atris freaking out at male Exile with love, and Atris freaking out at female Exile without love, it seems more viscerally impactful that she is that affected by female Exile. Her feelings for her are honest in a sense. They aren't muddled with the confusion and amplifying aspect of attraction. Obviously attraction increases feelings and their effects. But female Exile got under Atris' skin without attraction as much as male Exile did. That doesn't take away from Atris' love for male Exile though. It is just how i see it. I don't think I could disagree more. For me to ever accept that for the female Exile, I would have to hear a really good explanation for Atris' admiration of her, but the plot gives me nothing. That's not good storytelling. One thing they could have done is made Atris the Exile's old master. That would have solved the problem by explaining Atris' admiration as pride in a padawan's potential. It also seems to be a fairly convenient solution. I find it very interesting that they did not do this... [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i think if they had done it properly, that Sion has to die has quite an impact. Again, we can only go on what was in there. But i have read people state they felt Sion-Exile was powerful. Yes, as i have agreed, it sorta comes out of nowhere and implies those two were somehow feeling eachother for a long time, to which the player is left going "hun?" but the point is Exile wasn't going "hun?". The real problem is whether the player goes "huh?"... which I did. It seemed to come out of the blue, made no sense to me, and did not lead to anything revealing or worthwhile in the plot. Which in my eyes made it look too much like the devs were thinking they used the love-theme between Atris and male Exile, and so they had to do something similar between the female Exile and one of the bad guys, and then it got forced onto Sion because it was unfeasible for Nihilus. And that's how it felt to me - forced! [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] And when i thought about it, everything the player knows about Atris' feelings comes from cut-scenes that Exile isn't even involved in. So what? Brianna even comments on the male Exile's feelings for Atris, so it's not as if the Exile wasn't aware of it. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Again, i don't remember there being anything of significance in male Exile and Atris' last confrontation, so if there is, that changes things, but the player is given a bit more feel for Atris' romantic feelings than Sion's, but not all that much really. Of her anger though, in spades. You get several options for how to end story for Atris. Unless you choose to kill her, you can choose among these: Atris: "And what will you do with me now? Abandon me here on this dead world - or end my life, as I wished to end yours?" 1. "I will do nothing - except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me." 2. "I need you to see what you have become - and turn away from it." 3. "You will answer for your crimes before the Council, and then you shall return to your prison." 4. "You must return to your prison, Atris. And leave the battles to those who have the strength to fight them." [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Now Sion, his having to die, is meaningful if female Exile chooses the "You have been a presence in my mind as well" option. Especially depending on how the Atton-Sion stuff was to turn out. Why? [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]Sion becomes significant if the player accepts he is significant. i accepted he is, and i saw him as having more depth and purpose than just being the big baddie who is boss #2. How his relationship to Kreia mirrored Exile's, how he was just abandoned by her and then taken up again to fight Exile is similar to how Kreia abandoned Exile on Dantooine. And that Sion didn't want that, he didn't want Kreia to harm Exile in the way he was harmed where Exile wouldn't have anything to live for without Kreia giving her purpose, so she wouldn't turn out to be a monster as he was, Yes, but this is just as relevant to the male Exile. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]that he was even willing to kill whom he cared for to protect her, that packs a punch. I'd agree if I believed his motives. But everytime I saw him, he was this nasty, powerful bugger who just wanted to kill me. The lines for regret about the female Exile just seemed to be thrown in there as an afterthought, and were nowhere nearly powerful enough to establish true feelings. If I'm to believe that in spite of Sion's repeated and constant attempts to kill the female Exile, then I need to understand his position, which I never do. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] That Sion was a product of Malachor V makes him important since it is Exile who ordered its destruction. Sion is a physical manifestation of Malachor V, and a very acute one at that: pain. And pain is what everyone touched by Malachor V is burdened with. i see Atton and Sion as very similar in that respect; they both were affected by Malachor V, but they suffered differently, yet, they are so similar.In the cut content, Atton says to Exile once Sion messes him up severly, "Always was ugly, now the outside matches". And that, i think, is one of the important things Sion does; he shows the ugliness of Malachor V, of Exile, of the whole blood-soiled crusade. Agreed, but again, the Exile's gender has no bearing on this, since it is true for Sion regardless. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] And that this monster can actually care for something, for someone through his pain, that also is important since it shows the others affected by Malachor V just might be able to too. That is entirely dependent on whether Sion is compelling enough for the player to accept his feelings as genuine. I found that more than difficult. Especially in the female Exile's story, where he spoke of feelings for me even as he tried to kill me - that does sort of make me doubt his words, somehow... [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Wearing down his will, and that there is a difference in how that is done between male and female Exile is important, because with Sion giving up as he fights male Exile, it means something entirely different than when he lets go with female Exile. No, I don't agree, since I did not believe he was ever sincere. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] You are right though. All of what i said came from how i see things. We are told Sion is pain and such, but we really aren't given much on him, so we have to read into him what we can. i felt he was important, especially as he acted as a sort of hub where so many people's stories came together, how his path paralled others' paths, and how he was a representation of the pain Malachor V caused. He also served as a mirror to the Exile and her/his companions wherein it was shown just how tenuous their grasp on things really were. But i do understand how you feel it had no significance in the game. You also said you feel the Jedi Masters had no significance in the game. And i can understand that as well. I think I haven't explained myself well then. Sion is significant, but I don't think his emotions for the female Exile are compelling or believable in any way. The masters are significant, but they're not entirely consistent, since especially Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell appear to have changed a lot from when you first meet them and when you meet them at the council. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i'm not sure if they would have switched a youngling's or a padawan's master for her/him having some feelings of attraction. They would seem to have more likely used it as a tool to help him learn to master his feelings. i am certain as kids grow-up they would have all sorts of those feelings for a whole bunch of different people. That is only natural. i can't see why that would have been such a huge problem. Whereas a Jedi Master having such intence feelings, that would indeed have been a big problem i would think. Jedi are not like ordinary people, since their emotions can lead them astray in ways that are not relevant to normal people. Pay attention to how Bastila explains how she was removed from her parents in K1. It told me pretty clearly that the younger the jedi is, the more important the order deems it to shield them from such emotions, since they are not yet able to control them. Older and more experienced jedi would be presumed to have better control of their emotions. This is obviously not true for Atris, but the other masters would likely have expected so and not noticed the danger (which doesn't seem that unlikely to me given all the other things they chose not to face...) [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Maybe Atris was never good at controlling her feelings and that is why she never got to instruct a padawan. Conjecture, i know, but the point is, a Master who has such feelings for a Jedi is a far more serious problem that a youth or a teen having those feelings for the same Jedi. Not only is a master strong in the Force, but a Master falling to the dark side, as Atris proved, is a far worse danger than the attraction a young padawan feels. Atris was literally freaking out after Exile's trial. She did not go about hiding her feelings in a terribly effective way. And it is the stupidity of the Jedi Council in this game with regards to Atris that makes me feel it damages the plot more than Mical's attraction does. The same thing happened in KotOR. Why the Jedi Council went about sending Revan on the Star Map mission when s/he was clearly DS when s/he got there, i will never know. That just seemed an incredibly stupid thing to do. And so the Council in KotOR II suffers with the same stupidity disease. They should have done something about Atris back then. Leaving her with such intence feelings would make it too easy for her to lose control and to fall to the dark side First of all, I think it works because it underscores the very denial of the jedi council that Zez-Kai Ell speaks off. The jedi masters are - collectively - arrogant, because they think they are always right and the younger jedi wrong, and they think they are themselves above the failings of the young. That's why Zez-Kai Ell's admission of how flawed the jedi have become is so significant to me. The master did not see many things. Atris' love is just one of them. I do not agree entirely on the masters in K1, though. How was it obvious that Revan was DS?!? And in any event, they had no choice but to send him on that journey, because that was the only way to find the starmaps and so the Starforge. Remember that while Revan and Bastila knew which planets they were on, it wasn't until Revan actually went to each planet that he gained a vision of its precisely location. And as Bastila explains, sending a master along would only have made them easier for Malak to find. But otherwise I agree, the masters have been ignorant, self-delusional, and generally unwilling to accept their own responsibility. Heck, Zez-Kai Ell even says it himself, and he's one of them, so there really is no surprise there. [Jediphile]I like Sion, but not as a romance option. It doesn't seem right for his character to me. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Out of intence curiosity, and i know i'll regret asking but oh well, why doesn't it seem right for his character? Because Sion is not characterized deeply enough to warrant such an attachment, and there seems to be no reason why he would suddenly develop it out of the blue. And to throw it in there in just six to ten lines is not enough to create the depth that a romance would require, especially if there is no backstory to establish it. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i think Bao-Dur has a complex psyche and intellect. I think he can see things from many different perspectives and he can see how things are woven together in the grand tapestry of life. i also think how he can reduce things to manageable sizes is in and of itself a difficult thing to do since many get overwhelmed in seeing so much. Bao-Dur doesn't get overwhelmed, he simplifies. Which is precisely why he is not complicated. He is very intelligent, yes, but does not have a complex psyche. Not because he is not a deep character, but because he insists on not allowing things to overwhelm him. He simplifies things, and that is his greatest strength. He openly admits that he hated the mandalorians and took pleasure in their death. That's a terrible thing to admit. Does it make Bao-Dur evil? No, because looks on it as a part of himself, an experience that is part of what he is now. Like other experiences, it has led him to be the person he is now. And you can see his simplication of things in how he responds to things like influence. You can sweettalk your way to influence with Bao-Dur. No, he has to see you do good deeds to gain respect for you. Even here you can see that he is a no-nonsense kind-of-guy, who won't put up with explanations of justification, innuendo, or manipulation. He refuses to consider anything but the value of your acts. He keeps it simple. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] But it's not as if he loses sight of things, its more like he says "OK. This is too big for me to deal with all at once. I am going to group these issues together here, and these other issues here. I'll deal with these ones first, and once I've done enough work on those, I'll move on to doing these. But I won't forget everything else; I'll keep it all in mind and work on it sub-consciouly as I deal with one group of problems than the next." So eventhough he makes it simple, he still thinks about the other stuff, and he still sees the big picture. And he knows what he can handle at once, which also takes self-awareness and an understanding of the issues. Yes and no. He keeps it separated and puts the stuff he cannot deal with yet out of his mind, so that he can concentrate on it later, when the first problem is solved and no longer requires his attention. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i wasn't getting at he was in a state of denial. i was saying as a consequence of how he deals with things, by his reducing and remaining mostly calm, he has taken to supressing his feelings. I don't see that at all. He openly admits his hatred for the mandalorians and the pleasure he took in killing them. But you just know as he says it, that he regrets having those feelings. That's not denial or suppression. That's dealing with them right then and there. But he is a rather reserved person, which probably comes from his long years apart from the Exile, where he had no one he could relate those emotions to. Bao-Dur is strong in that he has faced his demons alone and come to terms with them. Exile and Atton have been utterly unable to do the same. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] The only time he shows strong emotions i can remember off hand, is when Canderous pushes him too hard and when he confronts Kreia. He isn't emotional when he was being Jedified eventhough one would logically expect it to be so. Even when he is DS and Jedifies from giving into his anger, he still isn't very passionate about it. Why is that? i think for 2 reasons. The first is how he sees Exile as sacrosanct and a person he cannot get angry with regardless of what Exile does, and because he surpresses his feelings. When he speaks of the wars, he mentions how much hate and anger he felt, and how he now feels those were bad reasons to fight. He regrets he killed out of anger, and especially made the MSG out of anger. But he doesn't really connect with those feelings in a meaningful way. He chose to be active rather than emotional. I don't see it that way at all. On the contrary, he has already dealt with those emotions and closed the book on them. But they are part of the sum that he is now, and he never forgets that. If he doesn't connect with them, then it's because they are in his past and should stay there. And I don't think he sees the Exile as sacrosanct. The Exile was just there and someone he expects can understand his emotions, in which he is not entirely correct - the Exile is far more in denial than he is. But he can certainly be dismissive of the Exile, if he/she does something he doesn't like (DS acts). [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] So what i was saying is an intimate relationship might just be exactly what he needs to allow him to begin the process of getting in touch with his supressed emotions. Not only those of rage, regret, and frustration which he does allow himself to feel on occasion, but the whole spectrum of emotions he has denied himself since entering the war, such as joy, love, and so on. That sounds like the worst basis for ever being involved with someone to me. You shouldn't be with someone as a means of healing old wounds, because that suggests the other person is just a catalyst for you to deal with your own problems, and the other person does not deserve that. That's why I'm a bit skeptical about Brianna's feelings for the male Exile, since she sees too much of her father him for it to be entirely healthy. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] Visas' backstory is the darkest of them all. And as such, it feels much more inappropriate for romantic endeavours than the others' do. There is a huge difference between being active participants in death and large scale slaughter, especially when actively instigating it and being aware of the consequences, contrasted to being an unsuspecting victim who feels all life around her die, and as if that wasn't devastating enough, to be made a slave to the one who destroyed it in the first place. i just can't agree with your assesment on the differences here. Trauma like that is extremely severe. It defies logic Visas isn't just a walking zombie or in a vegetative mental state. But she isn't, so she is in the game. But it really does feel off with Visas. But there is a major difference between Visas' background and that of Atton or Bao-Dur - Visas was not responsible for it. She has a lot of trauma to deal with, but there is no responsibility or guilt over her past for her to deal with. Nihilus destroyed her world and made her his servant. She had no choice in the matter. It's more like she was in a trance-like state until the Exile defeated her and awoke her from a nightmare. She may have great pain to deal with, but she seems quite determined in what the right course of action must be. There is no doubt or hesitation. She may seem submissive to the Exile, but I don't think she really is - to her the Exile is something that can destroy Nihilus, and she is determined to bring that about, even at the cost of her own life. She will tell nothing of Nihilus until she is convinced the Exile has the power to face him, and she can be openly dismissive the Exile's choices, if she feels it puts the Exile in danger. Since I like playing LS, that makes me prefer the male Exile, because otherwise Visas is just using the Exile as a weapon, which seems callous. If Visas also has feelings for the Exile, however, then humanizes her more, because she is in the dilemma of having to put the one she loves in harms way if Nihilus is to be defeated. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] As i said though, that interaction where she is reaching out and asks Exile to allow her to look upon him, that was a beautiful moment in the game. And it felt appropriate. However a relationship would seem to me to be entirely out of the question for a good long while, if ever. Visas doesn't even know who she is. It is only with Nihilus' death is she free of her servitude to him, but as we have seen, she already transfered that servitude onto Exile long before Nihilus died so she knew she would have a master no matter the outcome. No matter what way that is looked at, it is an unhealthy and imbalanced relationship. She puts everything in the Exile's hands, not only her life and her fate, but also her ability to hope and to feel. Surely Bao-Dur, Atton, and Sion's lives are dark and full of conflict and pain, but they have retained their individuality to a strong enough degree that they would not reshape who they are to please Exile. I disagree completely. Nobody succumbs to the Exile's will more than Atton does. Note how he sort of loses control over himself and follows the Exile into combat whether he wants to or not. That is not true for Visas. Bao-Dur is not relevant to consider in this context, since he is the same for either gender. As for Visas not knowing who she is, I never saw her doubting herself or her goals in the game. She is quite determined and certain about her priorities. And she does not put everything in the Exile's hands, except as a consequnce of her seeing the Exile as the only hope for the galaxy to survive Nihilus. It is not her own hopes she puts in the Exile's hands as much as the hope for survival for the entire galaxy. And as I've said above, her "servitude" for the Exile is not an act of submission but rather a dedication to her own greater goal. She cannot defeat Nihilus, but the Exile can, and so she does everything she can to bring that about. I find Sion irrelevant in this context, because his relationship with female Exile is forced and uncompelling. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] That is why i find the male Exile to be a weaker choice for cannon if it is based on romantic relationships, since the females are such Exile dependant characters. And the male love interests aren't? Atton feels so inferior that he dare not even admit his feelings, and if the Disciple bowed and scraped more than he does, the floor of the the Ebon Hawk would suffer a hull breach. No, I don't agree. Brianna is a bit unhealthy, as I've said, but she is strong enough that I'm wondering how long the relationship would last, once Brianna comes to terms with her past. And Visas does not submit to the Exile's will - she submits to her cause and the consequences that follows. But that is her choice and not the Exile's will. [Hekate]With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. [Jediphile]Precisely. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]Preciely what? Again my dim-wit sense is tingling... i'm the dim-wit. Not you Mical can provide normalcy in a way that Atton never can. That's where Atton feels threatened by Mical, because he seems Mical having a relationship with female Exile that Atton can never hope for himself. Hence the confrontation between them in the cut content. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] With Bao-Dur and Atton, i can see how intimacy could help them in different ways. It would be different from eachother, of course, because they are such different people. i already spoke of Bao-Dur, how intimacy with someone who does understand the ugliness of Malachor V as well as the responsibility of being the one who put it into action could be good for him. Bao-Dur doesn't need intimacy to deal with his past. He has no problems doing so in the male Exile's story, and he doesn't even need friendship - he has already dealt with it and put it behind him. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]And corollary, it would be good for Exile since she would have to face stuff we assume she hasn't judging by her lack of reacting to things and by how she spoke with Bao-Dur about the MSG and whose fault it was, or rather wasn't. According to Exile, neither of theirs. Just a wee tad ' denial there, lass. The Exile (either gender) is far more in denial about the past than Bao-Dur is. Bao-Dur is at the state that the Exile is still trying to reach. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] With Atton, the reason it matters it is Exile is because he actually loves her. We don't find out in the game but it is in the cut Malachor V content. No one else would be able to reach him because no one else matters to him enough. Atton has a way of emotionally getting into people, and he would definitely do so with her. He already did way back on Peragus and the conversation they have on the Ebon Hawk before reaching Telos is one of the conversations wherein she shows the most personality in the whole game, that they mostly dump for the rest of it other than a few disjointed places on occasion . Atton, being more raw, emotional, and passionate would evoke such in her. Exile would bring some calm and centering to him. So i think their demons, although bad, are still ones they could heal together from. Atton's attraction to the Exile is far more unhealthy than Brianna's is, because he loves her just because she is able to live with dark past, while he finds it far more difficult himself. In short, he loves her ability to deny the terrors and sins of her past more than he loves the Exile herself. Not very ideal... [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]But do they really blame themselves more than they should? i don't know. i think that is something no one could forget in a lifetime. It turns out an unexpected consequence of activating the MSG was the Force wound which bore Nihilus and ended-up destroying Katarr and goodness knows what else. That karmic burden, as Kreia spoke of when she told Exile of ripples and everything having far reaching consequences, is exactly what they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. Those ripples are the Exile's responsibility, not Bao-Dur's, since he was "just" another engineer at the time and not a jedi. He is not responsible for the consequences in the force, since he "just" created a warmachine that killed people. He was not the one who used it, however, and he was not the one who denied the force. [Jediphile,May 14 2006, 07:06 PM]Ah, but I think what she longs for is life and all the feelings that comes with it. Nihilus is death incarnate, and Visas has been breathing that death for too long. She longs desperately for all the emotions and feelings of life. Note her comments in the cutscene where we first see her and Nihilus: Visas: "I have felt it, too, my lord... a disturbance in the Force. It was difficult to make out, my lord. At first it was such a quiet thing, I did not notice it. But now I wonder if it has always been there, I merely could not hear it before.The sound built so slowly, yet when you listen for it, you can make out the strains, even over the background life of the universe. Do you feel it is a thr-{threat? Gets choked off by Nihilus crushing her windpipe with the Force}{Whispering, as if being choked}You... you are the darkness in which all life dies, milord. All life... exists to feed your power, and my life... {he releases her, she collapses - the next is quiet, subservient}my life is yours.I beg you... please... let me die.{Deferent, a little firmer, now that she has her second wind - she is answering a question}Yes... this disturbance... echoes through the Force. I can follow it to its source... and bring it to you. I will leave at once, my lord." [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM]i am confused. Where do you see her longing for emotions and life in that cut-scene? i got the opposite. She wants her torment to end. Hmm... again, it is fascinating how different perceptions can be... She is a void inside, her feelings dead. But suddenly she senses something from across the galaxy even over the oppressing presence of Nihilus. She shifts in her nightmare, taking a sudden and unexpected breath of the very life that seemed lost to the galaxy. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] 30 years ago they lost a huge slew of Jedi. However long the war lasted, they didn't immediately jump into taking on a boat-load of padawans. They had to recooperate, get things sorted, and then go about Jedi life again. Their numbers were diminished. They were limited with the numbers of padawans they could teach. Slowly they add to their numbers as those padawans age. 30 years down the road, the younglings who came to them after the Exar Kun war head off to the Mandalorian Wars, those who, like Exile, are supposed to begin teaching new padawans. The number of older Jedi who survived the Exar Kun war are low, and now they have to go and take care of the extra responsibilities the first generation Jedi who left to go the Mandalorian wars were no longer fulfilling. So there logically should be a larger number of younglings who did not get to be taught since the older Jedi would have been teaching apprentices anyway, and many of those of their preceeding generation who were supposed to teach them, left. To me, that makes sense. Makes no sense to me at all. You make it sound as if any and all jedi below the age of 30 or so left to fight with Revan and Malak, but that is not true. Revan split the jedi order. He did not destroy it, and the fact that there are jedi to fight him later in the Jedi Civil War would seem to prove that. Take a look at the jedi conclave on Dantooine in K1 - plenty of not old jedi around. I also don't see why the older jedi masters who lost their padawans to Revan's cause suddenly turned incapable of teaching younger padawans instead. As for Exar Kun leaving only few jedi left, I don't know where that came from. Many died, yes, but there was a lot of jedi on those ships above Yavin IV, and none of them seem to have died. The Mandalorian Wars were over thirty years later, which gave the order time enough time to recuperate and train several new generations of jedi. But it's not as if so much time had passed that all the old masters had just died. Sorry, but it doesn't add up, unless we suggest that the younglings are trained only by the young jedi who have just moved beyond the rank of padawan, and we know that is unlikely, since we saw Yoda train the padawans in Episode II. Were teachers lost. Sure. But I cannot see why the teachers alone left, but none of those padawans, who would have left their masters without an apprentice. Mical may suggest it, but both Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell tell us that they too lost padawans (Exile in Kavar's case) to Revan's cause. [Hekate,May 16 2006, 06:09 PM] i've been considering these criteria for a while, and i think there are many different ways to look at it. There is: the player's perspective the overarcing storyline the tie to Exile's personal history the effect/influence the character has on Exile how solid they are as characters what they bring to the group dynamic their skills and/or abilities Why is ties to the Exile's personal history relevant? It's like you're saying a character is only interesting if he or she has a direct tie to the Exile's past. I don't agree with that at all. Atton and Brianna have no ties to the Exile, and their stories are quite rich anyhow. Besides, it hurts credibility if everything in a plot has relevance to the protagonist directly, since it suggests that nothing can take place in the rest of the universe.

Except for the opening theme, that is unlikely to happen. I think there are copyright issues involved. Lucasarts may own Star Wars, but John Williams owns the music. Not sure what the legal issues are there...

and how many times have you added the exiles gameplay aspects into these arguments lmao yeah, im gona just spectate, and whoever says something wrong, im gona correct <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Let's play nice, guys. Yes, I've played around with OPG myself, but I decided after my previous post here that it wasn't worth it - it would neither prove nor result in anything worthwhile, and continuing in tormenting him just for my own amusement could only lead to a flamefest at some point. I know the danger-signs for that, and my warning-signals are blinking red at the moment...

Thanks... so do I

All enemies are scaled to your own level throughout the game. That's probably why they suddenly seem rather tough, when they were fairly easy to dispatch on the Harbinger. EDIT: If you're fairly high level, you may note that the spawning Sith assassins fighting primarily the Mandalorians are rather tough, whereas the fixed six or so Sith assassins in front of Mandalore's controlcenter are pushovers by comparison. That was obvious to me, because I was using the infinitely spawning assassins to boost my xp, and thought they were a challenge, but when I decided to move on, I dispatched the six hidden ones cutting me off from Mandalore with surprising ease...

Actually it's all over. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Where? The Exile has been dead for millennia by Luke's time, so claiming that the Exile would win any fight can never be anything but a claim. You're welcome to your opinion, of course, and by continuing to do so, you do not so much support your position as try to place yourself in a position where you get to be get to be judge and jury on the subject, especially when you then accuse others of fanboyism when they dare to question your lordly rulings... Um no that's storywise. You here Kreia explaining it to him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah, so when I use the principle of experiences making characters more powerful (which would seem to be a fairly obvious way to explain growth even in real life), then it's gameplay, but when you say that the Exile can "OMG - pwn any power/force ever instantly!!!" just because the game doesn't go through the detail of how he spends a week learning it, then it's plot and gameplay... Yes, our illustrious judge and jury has handed down his mighty verdict - all rise! KotOR2 has no passage of time assigned to it, so it is pointless to say that learning some these skills was an instant process, and if you examine the timeline, you'll note that the events of the game begin in 3951 BBY, but don't actually end until the year after 3950 BBY. About a year or more? Wow, I wonder what the Exile and co. did with all the time they *obviously* didn't spend learning skills, since the Exile can do that instantly..

Nor do I. HK-50 (masquerading over the comm as one of the crew) has a conversation with Coorta about the planned transport for the Exile. That always gave me the impression the ship had not arrived yet, while Atton had already been locked up before the droids started going crazy.

Ouch, that hurt... :">

[Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] In my last post i stated Brianna asked Atris why Exile (regardless of which sex) has such and effect on her. She also states she has never seen Atris that disturbed before. Atris's own answer is the same regardless of Exile's sex, the whole cut-scene is the same regardless of Exile's sex. Atris says: "We all have our heroes and when we watch them fall we die inside." That is the reason Atris is affected by Exile so deeply. That applies even if Exile is male. I think I've found the source of our troubles now. Since there is no easy way of putting it, I think I'll just be blunt and break it to you and say that you're mistaken about the above. You have cited the passage of what Atris says correctly, but only with regards to the female Exile. For the male Exile, however, the same cutscene goes like this: Atris: "The exile reminded me of something... I had forgotten." Handmaiden sister: "Forgive me, mistress... but I must ask. The exile... I have never seen another effect you so strongly. Did you care for him once?" Atris: {Slight bitterness, doesn't want to admit she loved the player}"The Jedi have no such attachments.As always, he will do as he wills, and the galaxy... and the feelings of others... can burn for all he cares. The day we judged him, I stood in the chamber, and he was... he was so right. He was so certain of it, I doubted myself. He chose Revan over the Jedi, over the Council... over...{unspoken "me" at end}" Since you clearly believe your above statement to be true for both male and female Exile, I shall drop the issue of Atris' love for the male Exile in the rest of my reply here (except where it relates to other issues), since it would only serve to point to arguments from a basis of misinformation, and doing so would only serve to point fingers and antagonize on my part. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Now, for Brianna's questions: "...You... you did not care for her, did you?..." It would seem Exile's answer to that question is what is important here. And in every possible answer, IIRC, it is a 'no'. To be totally honest, I do not recall what the Exile's options are, but even if they are all "no" in some form or at least evasive, I don't think that needs to mean that no such emotions were ever there. Given how Atris has treated him and continues to, it is not difficult for me to believe that he might have denied his feelings for Atris as well, if indeed he ever had any. And seeing as how she treats him now, and what she has become, there is little point in admitting to those emotions. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] *Hekate puts up a warning sign: caution: joke ahead* i thought Han was pretty busy thinking "Put it out! Put it out!!" *Hekate removes warning sign* It was pretty amusing to watch Han trying to put out the torches by *blowing* at them... How much more desperate can you get? Still, it did turn the film into slapstick - we knew they were never going to let that happen, and so you cannot take it seriously on a dramatic level. It really does make me dislike the Ewoks... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] It was a joke. Trying to lighten the mood. A character in BGII says "Well, bless me for being an idiot" so i thought i'd follow suit by taking a jab at myself since i did not understand the whole wound in the Force and echoes plots with all the contradictions inherent in the game the first time around, and i sitll don't past the 7th time around. My humour attempt was foiled again, i see Possibly because I never played BG II and so didn't get the reference. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] While it is true no one can control whom they love, it's also true no one can control whom they admire nor feel a kinship to. Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree again. Admiration doesn't come from random and inexplicable feelings like love frequently does. Maybe you feel it differently, I don't know, but for me to admire someone, there would have to be some specific reason for me to do so. To say that I admire Ed Murrow and Ghandi is pointless unless you already know what I would admire those people for (and in these cases that would admittedly seem fairly obvious). However, if I said I admired someone you didn't know anything about, it would immediately prompt the question of what I admired about that person. For example, if I said I admired Ronald Reagan, that would probably raise a few eyebrows here and there, because someone might immediately wonder why, and there are indeed both reasons why one might or might not admire him. If, however, I then elaborated and said that I admired him for the role he played in ending the Cold War with the Soviet Union, then that casts my admiration in an entirely different light and would seem far more reasonable to most people (or so I think). But you would need to have that piece of information to understand it, and you would be wondering why I admired Reagan if I did not give it. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Oi. i never said it is the most cohesive story plot on the planet. Nor did i say it fits in with any romantic ideal. Sion's a mess. Both in his body and head. Some people will be put off by it, and some people will find it compelling. Just as some people will find Atris' romance plot repulsive, and others compelling. By your own admission, love and attraction are not feelings one can control. Actually no, but I have accepted that you think so and proceeded to argue on that basis. Perhaps not a particularly important point to make, but I do wish to mark that distinction. Anyways... [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]So Sion feels love for female Exile because he just does. i do not understand why if Sion developed those feelings throughout the game, we must have been shown it unfold. Technically though, they do in a way with him letting her go on Korriban saying she deserves at least that, and then on Malachor V he tells her why he cares about. He has had a long time to think things over and to think about her. She is more important to Kreia than he is. That draws him to her. They don't show that in cut-scenes throughout the game, but they do have him state it in-game. It is possible it was cut content and they intended to add alot more with their backstory. My problem with the Sion romance (apart from that it makes no sense to me and does not fit his characters as I see him) is that it has no significance in the game. None. You still have to fight Sion and, in the end, kill Sion regardless of it. The same is not true of Atris, however - you get the choice of whether to kill her for her crimes or spare her life and grant her redemption. What you decide for Atris will depend on how you perceive Atris and think and how you - yes - *FEEL* about her (including whether you're DS or LS obviously), but the point is that you have the choice. You have no choice for Sion - he must die. So the romance thing is pointless - there is no impact or relevance to it at all. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i see it as a bit of a stretch to go as far as saying it hurts the credibility of the plot if Mical loves her. The same plot hurting potential holds true for Atris. I do not think it is insignificant whether the feelings between jedi is between a master and some other student or whether it is between a young jedi and her even younger padawan. I do believe that it would have been much easier for the masters to notice Mical's feelings and therefore assign him to another master. Atris is a master, however, and is undoubtedly much, much better at hiding her feelings, and even if they were discovered, what would the masters do? They can't kick her out just for having them - that would require acting on them first, which does not seem to me to have happened - and even so, the masters probably go through these emotions on a regular basis (they can't old by uncaring buggers like our admirable and dear old Vrook, after all) and are expected to be much better at controlling their emotions than a mere youngling and a very young jedi. So I don't accept that this is as true for Atris as it is for Mical. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] *Warning: humourous intent ahead* So, i take it you don't like Sion then? *Humourous attempt complete* I like Sion, but not as a romance option. It doesn't seem right for his character to me. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Again, back to the multitude of other occurences which turn out the same regardless of the choices the protagonist makes. The first large one that comes to mind: all the Jedi Masters get killed no matter what Exile does. Next one: Kreia dies no matter what Exile does even if in the LS rendition she just does so seemingly without cause. Next: Peragus gets blown up regardless of what Exile does. There are more, as i'm sure you are well aware of. And a few spoken lines is more than Atris gets with regards to her loving Exile. In the cut content, Sion becomes very relevant to the plot, but until Team Gizka finishes the restoration, we simply won't know. I find it very interesting how you carefully avoid the question of whether the player will kill or redeem Atris in this list of events. Given how significant she is the plot, her final fate would seem fairly relevant to mention here. I wonder why you did not... [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Since she is dedicated to stopping Nihilus, there would be no reason for her to betray Exile since they share the same goal. But is she? I was uncertain about that all the way until the confrontation with Nihilus... [Jediphile]I may see this side of Visas, but then I'm rationalizing after knowing the full story. I really was unsure all the way through playing the game, so I doubt the Exile was ever certain of this, because I sure wasn't. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]i find that interesting, because as i stated before, i had no doubt whatsoever of her dedication to Exile in the first run through. i guess in part that is because with Visas, the more Exile spoke with her, the more she opened-up about herself and she spoke more of why she is loyal to Exile. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that's precisely why I doubted her - she said all the right things a little to quickly and came around to my side far too easily. Not because what she said was unconvincing, but precisely because it was. And because I *wanted* to believe her. I kept thinking about this scene from the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode "Rocks and Shoals". Let me explain: Nog, a young ferengi Starfleet cadet, and Garak, a cardassian working for Starfleet, are exploring a planet the crew has crashed on. Garak notices that Nog keeps taking a step backwards whenever Garak does... He confronts Nog about it, who initially tries to be evasive about it and feign ignorance. Garak: "You know precisely what I mean - you're deliberately staying behind me, and I want to know why! Does this have anything to do with that unfortunate business between you and me last year?" [note: this is a reference to the events of the episode "Empok Nor", where Garak was infected with psychotropic drug that made him murder several Starfleet officers and nearly kill Nog as well] Nog: "You tied me up and threatened to kill me." Garak: "There were extenuating circumstances..." Nog: "It happened! So you can either stay in front of me or walk beside me - but I won't turn my back on you again!" Garak: "Cadet, there may be hope for you yet..." Now, this kept playing over and over in my head. "Yes, Visas I trust you... erm, would you go through that door first", while I thought to myself, "I like Visas and I *want* to trust her, but she *did* try to kill me! So I'm not turning my back on her!" It all made the game a lot more fun [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] LOL Yes, actually, that is exactly what i am doing. i found how you explained it very interesting and appropriate for Bao-Dur. He himself says he sees things as parts. The only area we diverge on is the conclusion. i think one has to have complex thought processes to see things in webs to be able to understand how things interact, rather than a linear thought process of simple reduction. So you think Bao-Dur is complex because he uncomplicates things WARNING: Danger of humor detected on current course! Sorry, but seem I detect a logic-circuit overloa... [brrzzzttt] - does not compute... does not compute... does not compute... [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i reach that conclusion because as stated above, he can see the big picture, how things connect, and how to manipulate the big into manageable and cohesive small parts. And it is exactly what you say about him breaking things down to where he can manage them that i think requires alot of awareness and understanding to be able to do. Taking apart a machine, for instance, to keep track of the parts to be able te re-assemble it, one has to understand how to group the parts together. To be able to do that properly, one has to be able to see how the machine works, what each part's function is, and how they relate to all the others. Alot of people have tunnel vision, and when they look at that metaphorical machine, they get lost because they cannot fathom the complexity of the machine. Bao-Dur not only sees it, he can manipulate it so he can better handle it. He thinks on many different levels and sees things from many different perspectives. It is a shame he is given so little dialogue in the game. But he, moreso than the rest of the cast, really understands himself, i think. And to be able to do that, he has to be able to see clearly and to be able to take all these various factors into consideration and see how they intreact with eachother. But that is just how i see it. Sorry, but that still... [brrzzttt] Damn, not again! *** System malfunction *** "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave..." [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i don't get why complicating things for him is bad. i think it might just be the stimulous he needs to shake him out of his veneer of calm and deal with things he hasn't been able to since some of those have to do with how others perceive him and his feeling he cannot be loved by another. No, I don't agree. That would require that Bao-Dur has not been dealing with his past, and that is not the case. He struggles with his past continually, of course, as any person with his past would do on a continued basis, but he has not been in in a state of denial for all these years that now needs to be countered. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i think the exact opposite would be true. That he isn't being shaken by attraction allows him to keep himself removed, almost emotionally and psychologically sterilized if you will, and that ultimately is worse for him. But once attraction is thrown in, by the very nature of that depth of intimacy, it would force him out of his comfort zone and he would certainly be challenged by it, but he would also grow. And growth is good And the fact he would be intimate with someone who understands his terrible karmic burden would be soulagent (sorry, slipped into French...) a mix of soothing and unburdening, which makes for less resistance to his being able to become intimate at all. So that means that for Bao-Dur to feel comfortable with others, he would not to get out of his comfort zon... [brrzzzzzttttt]. Oh no!!! *** Warning: Damage to logic core - subject will be erased from memory *** [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i don't get it why nor how with female's Exile's romance options, they all are in doubt and that love between them would compromise the integrity of the characters and the plot. Atton and Bao-Dur both wouldn't believe she loves them and it would be detrimental if she did, and Mical was to be her padawan so that is wrong, and Sion doesn't have enough grounds to love her so that also is not acceptable. i am saddened by this i find Atton, Bao-Dur, and Sion have very dark and disturbing histories and connections to Exile, with alot of potential for very powerful interactions and meaningful storytelling. Yes, but those dark backstories is precisely why they're not so appropriate for romantic relationships. It makes more sense for Mical, except he's just too boring in my opinion and does not seem to be enough of an equal to the Exile (nor does Atton for that matter...) [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] With Mical it is different, his is more in the sweet category. The closest to 'normal' any of them could ever get. It makes sense Atton takes such exception to Mical because of how free he is, and how if Mical and Exile were to come together, Atton wouldn't stand a chance. He could never provide that aspect of normalcy, of security Mical could. Precisely. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]i don't think Atton so much idealizes Exile and sees her as perfection, although i do agree he sees she is dealing with her karmic burden better than he is dealing with his and he is a bit jealous of that, but he also sees her as a bit of a monster as he sees himself. It is a less personal and intimate type of monster, but that distance from it, that sterility of sorts (which Exile shares a bit with Bao-Dur), is the difference between them too. His is more raw, but also more honest. She has the calming effect of the Force and having had her lifetime being trained in it. Atton is disconnected and seeking to be connected. But he is terrified of it even in his being drawn to it. i thought the romantic/intimate interactions and possibilities among the guys were quite significant, moving, complex, and deep. My problem is that they all, except for Mical, have some many demons to fight with that a romance option seems to burden the characters beyond what they can take. They just don't seem to be able to handle it on top of all the other ghosts they must also deal with. Whereas Brianna has no such ghosts and is just unhealthily curious, and Visas is from the dead "hole in the force" (Nihilus) to the live "hole in the force" (Exile). Visas sees the life that Nihilus denied to her in the Exile, in spite of his problems, because he is the opposite to Nihilus - the "positive" hole in the force. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] But i think his not blaming Exile at all and rather blaming himself entirely is a little delusional. Both Exile and Bao-Dur are a bit delusional about their guilt, in that they accept more responsibility than either of them should. And the Exile is far more in denial that Bao-Dur is. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i feel the same way you do about Bao-Dur and Exile as i do about Visas and Exile. i think her trauma is far too severe for her to be able to really be able to cope with intimacy. i think it might have a chance down the road, after she has had a while to sort things out after she had partially been able to make peace with herself on the Ravager. Ah, but I think what she longs for is life and all the feelings that comes with it. Nihilus is death incarnate, and Visas has been breathing that death for too long. She longs desperately for all the emotions and feelings of life. Note her comments in the cutscene where we first see her and Nihilus: Visas: "I have felt it, too, my lord... a disturbance in the Force. It was difficult to make out, my lord. At first it was such a quiet thing, I did not notice it. But now I wonder if it has always been there, I merely could not hear it before.The sound built so slowly, yet when you listen for it, you can make out the strains, even over the background life of the universe. Do you feel it is a thr-{threat? Gets choked off by Nihilus crushing her windpipe with the Force}{Whispering, as if being choked}You... you are the darkness in which all life dies, milord. All life... exists to feed your power, and my life... {he releases her, she collapses - the next is quiet, subservient}my life is yours.I beg you... please... let me die.{Deferent, a little firmer, now that she has her second wind - she is answering a question}Yes... this disturbance... echoes through the Force. I can follow it to its source... and bring it to you. I will leave at once, my lord." [Jediphile]No, you have not explained it. You have postulated it. I have said before that he does not bring anything relevant to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. Nor can you, since doing so would mean that the male Exile's story is incomplete and lacking, and I don't think you're about to suggest that. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] He brings background history to Exile. He brings Jedi history to the story. He ties the Republic in directly to the Jedi and the search for them which is directly related to what Exile is doing. He states the worlds the Jedi Masters are hidden on are connected and they together resonate the echoes amplifying their effect and that will lead to the death of the Force. Kreia tells him directly Exile is the cause of this effect and that she must die to which Mical tells her he will not let her harm Exile. He states Revan was attempting to unify the galaxy which then adds context to Kreia's comment on how Revan knew the difference between a sacrifice and a fall. Yes, but I maintain that he does not bring anything to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and that you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. None of what you mention here is missing in the male Exile's story. The only difference is that the male Exile does not get the relevantion that Mical was to be his padawan and that is not significant to the story. And in fact, I do seem to recall the male Exile having an option of remembering Mical from the academy, so even then he might recall that piece of information, even if it is never said in his plot. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] "...it is important to their relationship" Them being tied in that way, and that he refers to Exile as 'friend' indicates they have a different type of relationship than Exile has with the other Masters. Is it earth shattering? No. But does it cary meaning? Yes. He is the only Jedi Master to be on closer terms to Exile therefore his death would cary more weight than the others'. Actually, I felt a lot closer to Zez-Kai Ell, since he seemed to care far more about the Exile's situation and regret the masters decision than Kavar did, so I fear I'm going to have to doubt that greater meaning that you seem to think that Kavar carries in the game. Sorry. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] i do maintain Mical would know if there were teachers or not as far as his credibility as a character goes. The notion there were not enough Masters to go around also is easy for me to believe. Many went to war and those who did not had to pick-up the slack doing their Jedi things across the galaxy left with the others' abcenses. Seems perfectly plausible to me. The time frame we're talking about is during the Mandalorian Wars, years before the Jedi Civil War. This was at a time when the jedi order had apparently been recovering from Exar Kun's Great Sith War for well over 30 years without particular incident. And we know that when Revan and Malak split the order, it was mostly the young jedi who heeded the call and went with them to war. Did this cost teachers? Yes, but given the context it makes no sense to me to suggest that it cost more teachers than young jedi students, since it consistently described as being all the young hotheads who rushed off the war, while the older and more experienced teachers generally stayed behind. Therefore Mical's statement of there being no teachers left makes no sense to me - if anything, there should have been more than before, since it was mostly the students who need teachers who had left. Any particular flaws with that logic? [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] However, i do feel there is a bias in some of the arguments you make, just as you feel there is a bias in mine. For instance, the comparisson between Mical's and Brianna's personal ties to Exile. i do keep restating it is only a comparisson basis of one aspect of the characters though, and it is certainly not the only factor. i have stated numerous times how i find evaluating a character's worth on what they bring to the overarching plot to be dubious. But i do debate those terms since they were presented. Then by what what standards would you evaluate significance of the characters? To me it would probably be something along the lines of: - Their impact on the game's greater plot. - How well written and characterized they are. - How consistently and logically - and dramatically - they act during the course of the plot. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM] Again i feel as though what i wrote wasn't read. i stated Carth thanks Exile regardless of Exile's sex therefore he must have found out some other way with male Exile. But that still doesn't mean Mical isn't doing his duty to the Republic while travelling with Exile & co. which is important to the overarcing storyline. Fair enough, but that's still just presumption, since there is nothing to suggest Mical was ever in contact with Carth (or Cede) during the female Exile's plot. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]Jediphile, i would like you to know i am enjoying debating this with you, i respect your opinions, and that i have no intent of trolling nor doing any other nasty stuff. i do regret there has been this much misunderstanding, but looking on the bright side, it killed a few potentially monotonous hours I'm just glad we survived the "bumps" on the road... And obviously I would not still be here if I had a low opinion of you or your views. [Hekate,May 14 2006, 08:20 PM]And i am glad others have joined in as well And we finally agree on something...

HK-47: "Recitation: Yes, as I said, I am an assassin droid. It is my primary function to burn holes through meatbags that you wish removed from the galaxy... Master. Oh, how I hate that term." Exile: "What term? Meatbag?" HK-47: "Answer: No, Master. Ah, I said it again."

I agree. There are plenty of MMORPGs out there, even for Star Wars. Go play them - leave KotOR alone. It's not broken (except the clipping errors and cut content in K2), so don't fix it.

Storywise all the powers and abilities in the universe will not matter, because the outcome will be whatever the heck the author wants it to be. Good only shows more of your fanboyism. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, you've discovered my bias!!!!! No evidence to suggest that. Lucas is just a man like everyone else, and just as fallible as such. I wager he'd be the first to say so himself. He wanted to call Episode VI "Revenge of the Jedi", but people doubted it, and guess what - he changed the title. Though Lucas has the authority in Star Wars, he is no God, nor would he claim to be. That's gameplay, not story Whatever. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Snappy comeback I'd retort, but then I could never hope to match your eloquence

Allow me to second your again...

Oh, sorry then. Just seemed that way, given that mine was the last post. Mea culpa.

It seems to me that Nihilus was once one of the human jedi who fought at Malachor V. Just consider the description of the Nihilus Mask: "You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V. By taking it from him, you have gained a stronger tie to the Force."

Did I say otherwise?

We don't, but then what does that tell us? Not much, I'd say... So it could mean anything.

I think most of us didn't like how K2 began (prologue or Peragus), so I doubt will see anything like that again in a potential K3. Goto was Agreed. I'm sick of being this "chosen uber-jedi". I want to be the smart, young jedi. Not sure what you mean by how it should take place "later" in order to have an Order reborn. My own proposal was to have the Exile's companions be the teachers of a new "order" that was really just trying to pick the pieces of the old one by training the younglings that were left on Coruscant. The new PC would then be one of the oldest who was just about to become a padawan. But I still had the jedi order in shambles. We need to see that the jedi order really have been hurt by recent history before we allow the order to grow strong again, I think. That doesn't seem particularly relevant, since there is plenty of time in which to let whatever take place. Still, I too want K3 to be the last part of a trilogy, and I want closure of the characters of Revan and Exile. That doesn't preclude a K4, but it should then be the first chapter of a new trilogy, I think.

Only way to stay gray is to shift between LS and DS choices, and sometimes maybe take the neutral choices when they're there. Where to find Jolee's band (are his robes in there too?) cannot be answered. These are among the randomly distributed items of the game, which I think are just way, way, *WAY* too random. Finding requires the relevant experience level (since random items are granted with that as a basis) and pure, boring *LUCK* Seriously, you can play the game several times without ever finding the Bindo band.

You really need to read the rules again. Seriously! Not that it matters much... If you want to insist that Flurry is a force power, then be my guest - see if I care. Still doesn't make it true, though.

[DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]In reading the bold text of Handmaiden's quote, it looks more like she's the one who's trying to start something between Atris and the Exile than Atris herself. How do you figure that? All she does is tell Exile about her observations regarding Atris. There is even a programmer's note that she doesn't want there to be anything between Atris and the Exile when she asks if they were ever close, which clearly points to her being jealous of Atris. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]I never did any sort of love or hurt feelings from Atris, just jealousy and anger. (I guess another reason why I'm not seeing it is because I'm reading it in terms of a female Exile [one I usually see the Exile as] but that's just how I see that) I tend to think that's because Atris has fallen so far that she cannot feel real love anymore. She is total denial, and all her true feelings are perverted into something horrible in her own mind. But Brianna can still see it with ease apparently. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]Yeah they could have drawn a bit as to what the Exile's past was, but I guess they decided to let you create your Exile's past in your imagination. Heck, my Exile was born on Corellia... Yes, but that actually makes it worse, since your own choices of what the Exile's past was can be "overruled" by the game. That's not particularly fun to play. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]I thought that Atton was supposed to be the lead romance for the (female) Exile, given all his (and Kreia's comments) about her. I don't see Mical's being all that explored. I thought his was more of an admiration on a Padawan-Master level. Nothing ever happens between female Exile and Atton, whereas Mical can talk to female Exile about some of his feelings. That's without the cut content, though... And Mical cannot be said to be there only as a consequence of the padawan-master relationship, because if that were the case, then he would have followed the male Exile as well. So gender is clearly relevant in that case. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]I fail to see how Atris's "love" for the Exile was relevant to the plot. I see it (if it was there) to be equally as important as Sion's, which I think determined his behavior on Malachor V... It's relevant because Atris is essential to the evolving plot. She if she loved the Exile, then it becomes important. And how did Sion's love for the female Exile change anything. He said some different things on Korriban and Malachor V, but otherwise there was no change in how it all unfolded - there was no change to the plot because of his presumed feelings. You could make the same argument for Atris, of course, but that is not the case, since she sent the Handmaiden with the male Exile. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]I really didn't see Atris's role in the plot take much of a backstep because the Exile is female. Atris was still relatively central to the plot, and IMO she was still a developed character. True, but we knew less of her motives and feelings in the female Exile's story. I sorely lacked answer to the question of what the Exile did to make a master like Atris admire her. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM] Sion would have let the Exile go had she not insisted on seeing Kreia. He knew what Kreia was going to do to her (turn her into a female Sion), and seeing how she was he didn't wan't her to become that. I see that as something similar to what Darth Vader did, when he realized who he really was, and didn't want to be that anymore, however neither one could go back to what they were (both were brutally scarred beyond healing), and like Vader, Sion then wants to become one with the Force upon that realization. It's one of those moments you just don't get with a male Exile. Well, I didn't see it having any impact on the story at all - it all turns out the same way in any event, and the only difference lies in the spoken dialogue. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM] I really didn't get ANY sort of notion that Bao-Dur was in any way, in love with the Exile. I think it was more of a soldier-commander relationship, and one of those old buddies relationship, but nothing romantic. Agreed. But in the female Exile's case, it is still likely to be considered by the player. But I do agree with you that there isn't and shouldn't be any romance between the female Exile and Bao-Dur. It's just not that sort of relationship. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]Kreia on one hand knows Atton better than Atton knows Atton, but on the other hand, she knows very little about him. Sure, Atton tries to live a lie, but given his painful past I'm sure anyone would want to do that. It's obvious she doesn't like Atton at all, something that could have many reasons, including Atton's lack of wisdom and his dislike for Kreia's "cryptic answers". Yes, I'd agree with most of that. Kreia only bothers to learn what she needs to control Atton. She doesn't care about the rest. She could find out easily, but she just doesn't care. And as you say, Atton lives a life of denial because the alternative is too painful. He does not do it because he's an idiot who doesn't understand himself. [DAWUSS,May 13 2006, 11:32 PM]Kreia does have power over Atton (despite what she says to him), and a good example is the landing on Dxun, when Kreia tells him when the ship is to be fully repaired. Plus, if Atton was the one enslaving Atton, then I'm sure he would have allowed himself to leave the group after leaving Atris and her Handmaidens I guess the presumption is that by that time he had been so strongly force-bonded to the Exile that it was no longer his own choice. And note how Atton seems to lose control of himself when the Exile attacks someone innocent. But yes, Kreia does try to enslave and impress her power over Atton. How she manipulates and uses him as her pawn is one thing I really don't like about Kreia.

Everybody else also gets more powerful from the enemies they defeat and the experiences they have, so that's a moot point - it's just as relevant to everyone else. That's why they call them experience points. He was killed by two... That's a fact, so your attempt at evidence would seem fairly self-defeating. Again he still didn't master ancient powers that other jedi could. Where is force storm? Where is force crush (the baddest move of all time)? Where is his Sith Muarader rage? When did he master vapaad? Some ancient Sith lords would most likley kill him and same with the Exile and Mace Windu. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Didn't need any of it... First, by Luke's time Kreia has been dead for close to 4000 years, so what does she know of his abilities? She can speak only to the skills of the jedi and sith of her own age. Second, Luke confrontation with Exar Kun was 19 years before the New Jedi Order era. But that probably makes no difference, right? I wonder how powerful Anakin was 19 years before he becames Vader... Oh, yes, he was an little boy... Well that wa quoted by Lucas. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Did I claim otherwise? Just because Lucas says doesn't mean I can't say that it doesn't make much sense. Or is he going to sent his enforcer patrol of sith assassins with force crush after me now?!? :ph34r: Still doesn't change that fact that this is not how the Exile's "power" works. He could use that (without even knowing it) to his advantage *ONLY* against Nihilus, and that was just for a very specific reason. For the rest of the game it had no relevance to the battles he fought. Yes, let's kill the fun of all games with superpowers... Well, at least the DS fanboys liked it... Conclusion: Most game-killing munchkin power ever invented. Not something to be proud of.