Jediphile

[continued from last post] As Xard has already pointed out, there were plenty of other jedi around - the order did not suddenly crumble because there were no jedi left to teach others. Revan and Malak were fairly young jedi, and so were most of those who followed them to war, which doesn't suggest they were teachers. Sure, some undoubtedly were, but more likely the majority were students who left their masters. You need look no further than Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar to see masters who lost or missed students. So it seems unlikely nobody was there to teach Mical. No basis for that assumption (beyond presumptions based on the male Exile's story) and no impact on the story whatsoever. You're completely overlooking the Handmaiden's father, who she in no small way sees in the Exile, as evidenced by the quotes above. That's where her story with the Exile comes from, along with his significance on Malachor V, where her mother died. And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions. I might equally well ask you why it is fine for obscurity in Atton's case, but not for Visas. Besides, I do see an important distinction in those characters themselves. Atton is a fairly simple guy - the uncomplicated soundrel. "The fool" as Kreia would say. He hides a bit secret, but once you get that, Atton is pretty simple to figure out. Kreia also controls him pretty easily as a consequence by simply playing on his fears. He does not have the depth to see beyond that himself and tell her what to go do with herself. Visas, on the other hand, is complex by her very nature. The veil covers more than just her eyes. It is an indication of all the things that lie hidden within her. And she's difficult to figure out. She is often said to be totally submissive to the Exile (particularly the male Exile), yet she has no trouble refusing to wear the thong or admonish the Exile for taking risks or generally refuse that he/she confront Nihilus. You expect complexity, mystery, even potential betrayal in her. Another layer doesn't matter, because she is already pretty ambigious to begin with, unlike Atton. Good - you're learning... I'd probably agree with you if it were not for the fact that I just don't buy Sion's alleged love for the female Exile. There is no basis for it. It's just thrown in there as a gimmick in the 11th hour IMHO, and you have to accept it as such, which I don't. And therefore I think it hurts the female Exile's story in K2. Well, Bao-Dur just isn't a romance option (and shouldn't be IMHO - it ruins the warbuddy perspective, which is the significant part), so I don't see how it can be counted. Otherwise the number of relationships are the same for male/female, at least on the surface. As I've said, I'm not buying the Atton-female Exile relationship, and even if I did, I would definitely see that as weaker than those of the male Exile. Be that as it may, both Atris and Brianna herself both did see it as betrayal against Atris. No, Brianna has direct ties back to Malachor V through her parents, and that is tied directly to the Exile. Mical doesn't. He may have known the female Exile, but apparently didn't care enough to follow her. And Brianna is more than just a subplot, due to the similarities she sees between her father and the male Exile. She never names her mother herself, but interestingly Kreia does, and to the male Exile. Brianna presence makes Kreia tell you more about Arren Kae than Mical ever does. No. Kreia admits herself that she can do this. And though she claims not to control the Exile, she also admit that he/she wouldn't be able to tell the difference, if she did, so I don't think that is entirely correct. [the end - honestly! ]

[continued from last post] The problem is that I don't believe that the female Exile loves Atton. Neither does Atton, for that matter... And I don't agree that he has more impact than anyone else. Sure, his secret is significant to Revan's corrupting influence, but you could say the same about Bao-Dur's doomsday-machine or Visas' ties to Nihilus - they're all important to the plot. In fact, among the three mentioned here, Atton's is probably the least important, since Revan is not in the game, whereas you must confront both Nihilus and Malachor V itself... Nah, I'm just messing with you - Atton is as significant, but not more so, I think. She's reduced to an info-dispenser. All she's good for is getting information from, just like 3727 other forgettable NPCs inhabiting the game. As for Atris being affected by the Exile, how do you figure that - the Exile isn't even important enough to send her lowest servant after her. Scarcely an indication of importance... Handmaiden: "Because when my father returned from the Mandalorian Wars, he walked as you do now. There was something wounded inside him. He did not speak of what had happened there. And with us, he was silent. Changed. When I look upon you, I see in you an answer to a question I have searched for all my life. And that is why I tell you this now. I do not believe you to be the monster Atris made you out to be. I believe your choice was my father's choice, and it was just as difficult. I do not claim to understand you. There are times when your actions are a mystery to me - but I do not wish my actions to be a mystery to you.Malachor V is the place where I lost my mother and my father. But it was their choice to fight the Mandalorians - and to die there, if Malachor was to be their grave." Handmaiden: "My father broke his oaths. He shamed us all. I do not wish to follow his path... I swore not to follow his path. If I were to follow a Jedi against Atris' wishes, then I would be betraying her. For you. This is a difficult thing for me to say, but I ask that you be silent as I tell you this.It is my desire to learn from you what you can teach me of battle. I have already learned much in our duels, but with every battle, I wish to know more of you.Your stance, your movements, I can sense shades of meaning, and an echo of something I have yet to experience.Atris said that you were the only Jedi to have survived the Mandalorian Wars. That you had stared into the heart of war, and only turned away because you were forced to.I do not believe her. I believe that you made a choice... as my father did. And that is important to me, more than you know.And you are important to me, more than you know. I will accept whatever you wish to teach me, though it breaks my oath to Atris. Not quite the same thing, I think, and not just her personal story either... Because it begs the question of what she admired. For the male Exile, she was in love with him. Fine, I get that. But what about the female Exile? It was clearly before the Exile left for the Mandalorian Wars, which puts it at least twelve years before K2. It could be a few years earlier, but I doubt it is more, or it would be too far back in time to be credible given the Exile's apparent age IMHO. Well, we disagree there. We saw Anakin fall because he loved Padme and couldn't bear to lose her. That Atris (cold ice-queen that she is...) should have a similar fate appeals to me Pretty strong impact in my book. Right, but the second the Exile can hear Bao-Dur's thoughts but Kreia can't, you'll begin wondering if there is a deeper connection, if the Exile is female. I think that obscures how the connection really comes from Bao-Dur being involved directly in the one defining moment of the Exile's life that altered him/her completely. Sure, other NPCs may highlight specific aspects, but Bao-Dur's presence is a reminder of the very focal point of where all the Exile's trials led both to and from. It is to me. [continued...]

I do agree that the Exile was fairly weakly characterized, but given your call for strong female leads, that actually sounds like more of an argument for a male Exile, I think... Because any narrative plot, whether in movies, books, tv-shows, or even computer games should be founded on good writing and not trying cater to a basis of equality. I have no problem playing a female character, not even if it is forced on me, as long as it is done well and purposefully in the plot. But most gamers seem to be male, and they are apparently either too daft to accept leading female characters, or else the developers think they are (I'm not to pass jugdment on which is more likely), and so we get mostly male character leads in our games because the devs target their demographics specifically. I don't think the Tomb Raider games count in this context (though I have played several of them), because Lara Croft is not a particularly deep characters - her primary advantage, as I see it, seems to lie in her rather large... ahem... ratings! So, yes, I'd be hard pressed to point to a game where I played the female lead and liked it. However, this is more because such games are rare (to say the least) and often try to sell themselves on that aspect alone rather than being good plot That's not a fair basis of comparison, because at that point Luke had trained for years for that confrontation alone, and even then he admits to Obi-Wan that he cannot face Vader. Leia just had it dropped in her lap in two seconds and had to deal with it all at the same time, "yes, I'm your brother, oh, and Vader's our father - so what do you think?" Is a strong reaction unjustified in this case? I think not. Besides, Luke himself did indeed flee when he learned the truth, so how can you blame Leia for it? And you're misinterpreting Leia's motives too, I think. She wasn't trying to flee because she feared Vader, she was trying to make Luke flee, because she was afraid of what would happen to him if he faced Vader. Her concerns were never for herself. Leia: "No, Luke. Run away. Run far away. If he can feel his presence, then leave this place! I wish I could go with you...". Luke: "No, you don't. You've always been strong." No, Leia is clearly stronger in her convictions than Luke, and Luke knows it too. Sure, at this point Luke has become fairly strong and self-confident, but it took this long for him to get anywhere close to the point where Leia already was. She never doubts her skills or duties, and she never thinks of her own safety as she pursues them. As for Luke becoming the most powerful jedi, well he *did* have a few years "head start" on Leia. Leia is no weakling, though. If you count the "Dark Empire" comic books, she has to face not only the reborn Emperor, but also Luke who has fallen to the dark side, and she is not only victorious, standing up to Luke in lightsaber-battle along the way, but also manages to redeem him. Nope, definitely not weak. Padme is a pretty strong character. She doesn't have force powers, of course, but she don't need to in order to be a strong character. I could mention Mara Jade or Nomi Sunrider, but then people always get miffed when we bring up characters from the books or comics or other bits of the EU. Funny, really, given that KotOR is EU... Of course not, but then I think I've already answered that question above... No problem for me. Just write appropriately strong plot for it. K2 is simply stronger plot with the LSM Exile IMHO. The conversations with Disciple never had that impact on me. Mostly they were just boring rehash of what I'd already heard from Kreia or one of the masters. I learned far more of the Exile's powers and bond from talking to Zez-Kai Ell than I did from listening to Disciple. And I hate when I'm given information that I'm allowed to know as a player, but which my character is not allowed to know or act on. It's not quite as terrible here as in a real tabletop RPG, but it's still pretty frustrating... As for the other characters being "extraneous": Mira is the "kid sister" in K2. She serves a bit of the same function that Mission did in K1, but she's also the hard kid who has to have her eyes opened to a different world than the harsh one she lived in, so that she can evolve to something better. That's what the whole "jedify Mira" scene is about IMHO. Mandalore is there to serve as a connection back to Revan. I would agree, though, that he does not need to be a party member to serve that function, and he's pretty boring as a companion, if you ask me. I never used him much... Hanharr I do consider a rather failed character. I hear he was originally intended to also become a jedi (or rather sith), but then LA told the devs that they weren't allowed to do that. Hanharr is nasty and has little interest. Once he's "broken upon my will" and gives me the bonus you can unlock as a DS'er, I never use him again. Most DS-players seem to prefer "falling" to the LS a little in Nar Shaddaa just so they can get Mira in the group and then corrupt her completely. But then that might just be because she can be jedified, and they want that for the "uber-army of sith that completely pwn everyone else ever!!!!" or whatever testosterone drivel they tell themselves It would be interesting to see if they still took Mira even if they could turn Hanharr into a sith... Because I wouldn't know if the female Exile loved him or just pitied him, or even if Atton loves her simply because he knows he can never have her. Either way, is it really love? For the Exile it could just be pity, and for Atton it could just be fantasy. Atton seems to think so... Atton: "Oh, yeah, one other thing - don't think I haven't noticed the way you've been sparring with our ex-Jedi friend. This isn't some pleasure yacht, so if I did know all the Echani movements, I might know more than just the first tier, including the etiquette rituals. So keep your hands where I can see them." Fair enough, but there is still no romance in that. [continued...]

Every stat turns into modifiers according to this formula: modifier = (stat -10)/2 Thus, if you have intelligence 16, you get a +3 modifier (16-10 = 6, 6/2 = 3), and therefore you get 3 bonus skill points every time your advance in a new level (in addition to those you already get from your chosen class). I find skills to be significant in both games, though certainly more so in K2 than in K1. Also, the skill point awards for the jedi guardian is corrupted in K1. Even though I had Int 14, I still got only those two bonus skill points from my Int and nothing from actually advancing. K2 seems to do it right, though. And you want high Int because you can build massive skills (and actually use them for something) as well as gain extra conversation paths at times. All stats/ability scores max out (initially) at 18. I don't recommend going that high, though, as you it costs two "points" during character creation instead of one to raise an ability score above 14. Besides, you can always max them out later, when you raise your ability scores by one point every four levels, as these increases have no "double-cost for high stats"-rule associated with them.

We're not touching it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm glad to hear that. I don't think this scene presents a problem. It's called "Death of the Ebon Hawk" because we see the Hawk fall to its death... We do not see it die, however, which allows for whatever outcome is desired. If Bao-Dur and T3 (both notably absent in the endings, even in the cut content) were aboard repairing the Hawk, then there is basis for saying that it fell, but managed to restart its engines before it was smashed. In the LS ending this was significant, because the Hawk is necessary to save the Exile, when Malachor V is destroyed. In the DS ending it doesn't matter, though, because Malachor V remains unharmed. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

That's the way to do it, yes. EDIT: Oh, and you can go for the neutral choices instead of the extreme ones (which gives either LS or DS points).

Probably more than one... But really, how can you blame us - even Luke used Choke on the gamorreans in RotJ. He did never use Force Storm, though, did he... :">

Yes, that would be it. You have to either listen to his sob-story and then buy the charges or else just take them from his cold, dead hands...

For a DSF Revan, Carth should be dead and not appear in the game at all... In fact, Carth should be gone for a DS Revan, regardless of gender.

Hmrph. I don't agree with all those people liking HK-47 so much. Sure, he makes fun comments, but he's a nasty piece of work and no mistake. Well, at least a lot of people have also voted for T3. Quite telling really that - as of the time of writing this post - out of 56 votes, nobody has voted for GOTO "

Well, I'd redeem them both back to the light side, of course

Actually, I think that's putting it a little low A friend of mine keeps insisting that stupidity is a public disease. Not that I disagree with him - I just tell him that we shouldn't presume to be immune ourselves... In the case of drink vs. drugs, I'd say it depends. The kid in the example is, as far as I can tell, obviously completely indoctrinated by social taboos and conventions. The difference is that drinking in moderation is acceptable and generally does not cause permanent damage to your health. Drugs are a different matter, because their effects can be permanent and lethal. Watch the movie "Trainspotting" for a good description - it makes no presumptions and clearly states that taking drugs can be a wonderful experience (instead of all the lecturing and morality, which IMHO is more sickining than the drugs themselves), but also that there is a price to be paid for that experience. But of course, excessive drinking can be just as devastating and harmful as drugs. You just have to drink awful amounts of alcohol to reach the same effect. But just ask any AA member if that can't be just as dangerous as drugs...

Actually, I'd rather accept fixed voices for Revan and Exile than have them be mute, because otherwise it seems like a severe limitation on what you can use them for plotwise. Sure, some people may be put off by that, especially in the Exile's case who had no voice before (whereas Revan had some 'ready'-comments). I might even be one of them myself. But I'd rather overcome that than have them be silent and not significant in the plot. They are significant characters - that's why I want them in K3.

Erm, Vader turned back - that's why he killed the Emperor... Luke did too in the Dark Empire comic books. Revan went from being dark lord to being at least neutral, and by canon he returned tot he light side. Juhani was dark side and abandoned it. Ulic fell to the dark side and eventually renounced it, at least to some degree. Visas was a Sith, but turned to light side. The same could be true for Yuthura Ban. Lots of examples to suggest your position is not entirely correct, I fear...

K1: Scout/Jedi Guardian Str: 10 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 14 Cha: 14 Raising stats above 14 costs double, so I wanted the most out of my assignable points. Since Dex modifies to-hit for lightsabers as well as Str, I did not find a high Str necessary and preferred the extra vitality points from Con. I have decent Int because I want to build skills - this character could do complete repairs to HK-47 and also "free" the Mandalorian prisoner on Korriban. K2: Jedi Sentinel/Jedi Master Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 14 Cha: 14 Str and Dex are reversed, because Dex doesn't affect lightsaber to-hit anymore. I need decent Int for some conversation paths, and I raise it to 16 as soon as possible (for more skill points). I also increase Con for better implant use, though that can wait till later. Dex may be low, but can be upgraded be loads of items, whereas few things modify Int.

Obsidian has already expressed interest in doing K3. So there would be little point in petitioning them for it. No, the matter is on Lucasarts' table, and since they own Star Wars, whatever they say goes. But they seem to have some policy about not bringing out too many Star Wars games over a set period of time, so it'll probably be some time before we see K3. Still, I do think they could at least announce it. It'd still be ages before the game comes out...

Revan being male by canon is no argument for the Exile being female. This is not a case of affirmative action in popular entertainment, nor should it be. Let me ask you this, if Revan had been canonically female, would you cast your vote for a male Exile simply on a basis of equality between the sexes? And just so you know, I'll doubt your answer if you answer that with a "yes" I disagree completely. Leia was far more self-confident than Luke, who constantly doubted his abilities, and Han, who constantly wrestled with his morality, in the original trilogy. Leia was utterly firm in her convictions, however, and only became weak when it came to her feelings for Han, and that was only because she felt it would reflect poorly on her as a leader of the rebellion. SW lacking in strong female leads a fact? I think not... Again, that's affirmative action policy, which should have no place in a consistent narrative. I must confess that some of your presumptions irk me the wrong way... A fresh storyline? How? I have played the female Exile, and I found the story to be not nearly as deep as the male story was. You lose the Handmaiden, who has a complex story of betrayal and background, and instead you get, well, the Disciple... I don't hate him as much as some people do, but he is rather boring and only tells you stuff that you can really learn from Kreia as well (though you'll probably doubt her word). But fine, let's examine some of the changes: Atton: Secretly in love with female Exile. However, he can neither admit nor pursue his love, and thus the whole thing remains on the platonic level. The female Exile liking Atton is in for long, lonely nights in the cargo hold... He swears eternal (and blind) loyalty to her, which is just as unflattering in a male as in a female and does not make for much romance IMHO. For the male Exile, Atton is just another crewmember, and his primary function in the story becomes the burden of his secret and how the Exile reacts to it. I find that without all the emotional entanglements, that works better plotwise, because your reaction is based solely on whether you can find any empathy for him in spite of his crimes with no romantic notions interfering. Handmaiden: A complete non-entity in the female Exile story, and she is completely abandoned once you leave Telos. Nothing of her background, her fight to be accepted, or even what became of her when Atris killed the handmaiden sisters. She just hangs around until you Telos, and then she doesn't exist anymore. Yuck! For the male Exile she has profound impact on the story. Her love for him (such as it is), her betrayal of Atris when she becomes a jedi, and particularly her parentage are all siginificant points that underscore the Exile's own trials. She is complex too, because she sees her lost father in the Exile, so is her love for the Exile really a daughter's love for her father that she is somehow trying to project? And that's not even taking the whole matter of her mother into consideration, which is a big can of worms by itself. Very compelling and important in the overall story with relation to the other significant females, Kreia and Atris. Atris: For the female Exile, Atris is said to have admired her. I don't find that to be very compelling, when we know that Vandar and Vrook did not think so highly of the Exile's abilities, and we're not told anything beyond that. That's disappointing to me. Lots of jedi joined Revan and Malak, and Atris probably "respected" more than just the Exile. But we don't get to know this - it's just thrown in there, and we have to accept it as true. Not very good storytelling IMHO. For the male Exile it's a whole different matter, though, because Atris secretly had feelings for the Exile. And though she had to dismiss him for his actions, she could not reconcile that with her feelings, which then turned to anger and hatred, and probably eroded her to such a degree that she began her long road to the dark side here. It is bitter irony that Atris falls to just the same feelings that she condemns otehrs for having. It does make for good storytelling IMHO, though, and when she sends Brianna to spy on the Exile (there are sound files from a deleted cut scene in the game directories), she begins the very betrayal that she eventually falls victim to herself. I still remember fondly how Kreia says, "Betrayal!", and it echoes all the way back to Atris on Telos, when the Exile turns Brianna into a jedi. For a female exile this chilling moment is lost. Bao-Dur: For both male and female Exile, the relationship is the "old war buddy"-thing. Is that more believable with a male Exile? Perhaps... But it shouldn't be in Star Wars, where female jedi generals are probably just as numerous and capable as males. However, with a female Exile, the sex thing also enters the picture and obscures the "war buddy" relationship a bit by suggesting feelings that are just not present in the game. Therefore I prefer the male Exile, where there is no sex thing to obscure the content of the relationship. Disciple: Well, he's the only real romance option for the female Exile, which is utterly disappointing, especially given how boring I think he is. His "good manners" do not make for a very interesting character in my book. Sure, he knows a lot and you can learn much from him, but you can learn most of it from Kreia as well (if you believe her), and his relationship with the female Exile is not nearly as interesting as that of Visas or Handmaiden IMHO. I also think it weakens him as a character that he left the order when the Exile joined Revan, and yet did not follow her to war in spite of his feelings for her. So he, what, just decided to sit the whole thing out and see what happens? Some hero... Mical is hardly in the male Exile's game, but I actually thought he had more character here. He's working for Carth (or Cede) exploring the jedi. That means he at least has a mission instead of just hanging around for the Exile to give him something to do. It also makes more sense that he did not follow the male Exile during Mandalorian Wars, I think, because there were no emotional ties, and he simply just lost his belief in the jedi ways and left. Visas: She serves somewhat the same function for an Exile of either gender, though there is also emotions for the male Exile. Does she love the male Exile because she loves him or because of the danger he presents to Nihilus? In the female Exile's case, the latter is clearly the case, but for the male Exile there can be doubt. Still, I find that ambiguity to add to the story rather than obscuring it. It makes Visas more complex and Visas is supposed to be very mysterious to the point where you're not quite certain whether she is still loyal to the Exile. It works doubly so for the male Exile IMHO, because you're wondering about her emotions as well as her loyalty. And she and the male Exile gets to "see" each other through the force instead of some dumb speech by Disciple... Sion: Sion just hates the male Exile, who replaced him as Kreia's apprentice, but he seems to have feelings for the female Exile. Those are, however, of no significance in the game and only relevant for a few comments, which I frankly find more unsettling than anything else. For the male Exile I flee Sion on Korriban because I can't defeat him, but my female Exile fled because the thought of her and Sion was just scary - he's welcome to sleep with vibroblades, but I don't want to be there with him!!! " :D I don't actually think that the Exile's gender matters so much for the rest of the characters (albeit Mira has a few comments about the Exile's age, but without being a romance option), except for Kreia disapproving of a relationship between male Exile and Visas. So I'll skip the differences here. I must confess that I don't understand how you keep score here. You admit that the female Exile and Bao-Dur romance was cut, yet you still award the female Exile points for it, but give none to the male Exile for his relationship with the Handmaiden. Is it just me or does that look more like you stage your points than giving them on the basis of a fair analysis? And as I have said before, the female Exile/Disciple relationship is hurt by the fact that he did not follow her to war, even though he's supposed to love her oh-so-much and follow her to whatever end... For those keeping score: Female Exile:

Yes, that would be mine, among others. It's one reason why I think both Revan and Exile will be DS in K3, regardless of previous LS/DS choices.

Why not? The latter actually fits rather well, considering the obvious connection between the Exile and Nihilus that the masters refer to...

Well, a few facts. In the LS Revan version of the game, Carth tells you that wherever Revan went, the Ebon Hawk was there as well. T3 (and HK-47) were clearly there as well. T3 was told by either Bastila or Carth to protect the republic if it got into trouble by finding a jedi. This turns out to be the Exile, as T3 admits, if you build influence with him and watch his holograms. Kreia, however, did not go with Revan. She admits in the end that she does not know where Revan went. Now, I do think Revan went to see Kreia on Malachor V, but the only time that would make sense is before she was cast out by Nihilus and Sion. Since this is some time before K2 begins, this cuts Kreia's connection the Ebon Hawk. Revan shut off HK-47 on the Ebon Hawk. Revan apparently trusted T3 to follow orders, but not HK (good call, Revan ) HK-50 drugged the Exile on the Harbinger in order to bring the Exile to GOTO. The Ebon Hawk was attacked by a Sith warship. It was apparently badly damaged during the attack. The harbinger found both the Sith warship and the Ebon Hawk (from which it received a distress call and was ordered to investigate by Carth/Cede). The Sith camouflaged and snuck aboard the Harbinger (except Sion who just played dead). The Ebon Hawk was under the control of T3, who was looking for a jedi to save the republic (i.e., the Exile). Now, the real question is where Kreia entered into the plot. Nothing suggests she was on the Ebon Hawk before it escaped from the captured Harbinger. Indeed, it would make more sense, if she was not. Revan visited her on Malachor V, so she would know the Ebon Hawk, but she did not go with Revan to the unknown regions, and T3 would have no reason to seek her out later. Certainly we never hear anything to that effect. Clearly Kreia was on the Ebon Hawk playing dead during the prologue, but how and when she came aboard is uncertain. Personally I think she was either on the Sith warship or else on a fourth ship that we did not hear about before. Nothing suggests that she was on the Harbinger before the Sith attack. She says that she has the only means by which to control the Ebon Hawk, but that is not entirely true. All she has in knowledge of how the Hawk was locked, but no control of it. T3 locked the navi-computer and has overall control of the Ebon Hawk throughout the game. It is only in the LS ending that he unlocks it and takes the Exile to wherever Revan went.

No, the original sith species never had an empire. They were just primitive humanoids living on Korriban until the dark jedi cast out by the jedi order during the Great Schism enslaved them and and then absorbed them into their new empire. The true Sith are probably the descendants of the old Sith Empire shattered in the conflict between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh and the defeat at the republic's hands. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, I ment exactly that. Was I unclear or what... :S <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry. Sounded to me like you were suggesting the sith species formed the "original" sith empire, which would be incorrect. I see now I was mistaken. Mea culpa.

No, the original sith species never had an empire. They were just primitive humanoids living on Korriban until the dark jedi cast out by the jedi order during the Great Schism enslaved them and and then absorbed them into their new empire. The true Sith are probably the descendants of the old Sith Empire shattered in the conflict between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh and the defeat at the republic's hands.

I would be not at all surprised, but I would be disappointed. To kill of Revan and/or the Exile in the background is just bad storytelling. If Revan is to die off-screen, then they should have done it in K2. In fact, live or dead, it would be better if Kreia had told The Exile so at the end of K2, because they would could wonder, and the devs would have the option of whether Kreia was right or not in a K3. You don't leave the fate of character in suspence for an entire game/novel/movie/plot without payoff later, so it would be pretty disappointing if we kept hearing about Revan in K2 only to find out that he is long dead in K3.

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agreed <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree and I think if they looked at the fight scenes in Episode 3, IE Yoda and Palpatine, Mace and Palpatine, Anakin and Obi-Wan, they could apply those types of fights into a game. Being able to block Force Lightning with a hand or lightsaber would be way sweet. Too have actual FIGHTING AND NOT STUPID HACK AND SLASH is another. Different fighting styles and lightsaber forms clashing in a beautiful flurry of light and sound are my Knights 3 dreams. Say someone uses a fencing style against someone who focuses on power hits, the fencer is going to mess him up in real life (Dooku and Anakin) so why not in the game?! One other thing...hoods. In the movies the Jedi and Sith always would put up their hoods whilst wearing their robes, to me that is a must option for any charcter in a Star Wars game. I have to admit that Knights 2 improved on this but the robes blowing in the wind in the same way got really old. Why not use the modern game physics of X Box 360 or a graphics card to make them move with the environment? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is all because KotOR is based on WotC's d20 RPG system. And yes, I would agree that it sucks. It may be that the games are tied to that system and may not be altered too far away from it. Don't know... All I do know is that I'm fine with changes, but I want it to remain turn-based or at least "semi-turn-based" - I don't want real-time fighting. If I wanted that, I would play another game and not a CRPG. KotOR fighting *must* be based on the stats of my character and *not* on my own ability to sit here and press buttons, because then it stops being a CRPG, and that is unacceptable! Then it is no longer KotOR!