Jediphile

http://team-gizka.org/wip.html <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Hekate]Subjective certainly, and arbitrally assigning worth to the female romance option characters and dismissing those same criteria entirely for the males. i'll use your own quotes to illustrate how you are discriminantly juxtaposing value of these criteria. Oh, come off it. I could make just the same accusation against you. Why is it somehow illegal for me to explain why I prefer the male Exile's story? It's a matter of opinion and not something that can be "proven" in any way. [Hekate]and how was Atris' love any different? She reacted the exact same way to all Exile incarnations. Male Exile does not find out how she came to care for him, nor what occured between them. It was just as convoluted, underexplained, and unsatisfactory as Sion's was. If an unexplained reason for loving the player character is reason enough to discount it than Atris must be discounted too. I don't agree with that. Atris actually lets it slip during your conversation with her in the Telos Academy, so even if lies beneath the surface most of the time, the Handmaiden pretty much says it out loud. Kreia comes close too. Atris: "There was much about that day that was difficult to forget - your words, your defiance - and when you stabbed your lightsaber into the center stone. I have kept it - so I would never forget.I have always kept it, as a reminder of what can happen when your passions dictate your actions.I have kept it, so I would never forget your arrogance or your insult to the Order.I suspected as much. You cared nothing for the trappings of the Jedi... and you cared nothing for the Order, even on that final day you came before us.So... you would fight me for it? You are not far removed from the monster who left the Order so long ago.Then you misunderstand its meaning while it is in my possession - and what it now represents. It is not yours. It is a symbol of something greater, which you no longer represent.Become a Jedi again? That is a thing far out of reach. But I am not unsympathetic to your feelings. Leaving the Order must have been difficult for you.Yet you gave the Council no other choice. You gave me no other choice.And you were ruled by hate and aggression! That is not the way of a Jedi!So your choice was to meet the aggression of the Mandalorians with more aggression? That is not the Jedi way!Every choice we make, whether we know it or not, sends echoes through the Force. It can awaken feelings, ignite passions, hate, anger, fear - where none existed before." Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." It's right there, if we care to look for it. [Hekate]Where did this come from? Tell me your joking. Are you honestly suggesting KotORs would have been better with only a pre-determined sex as a lead? Not only does that limit player choice, that forces the in-game story line to be even more linear. i enjoyed played both male and female incarnations of Revan and Exile. i certainly would not want to have no choice. That is just sad The more you have established a character in your plot, the more you can do with that character. Since the Exile has to remain both genders in the overall plot, that means that there are some things that are not possible. For example, the majority of NPCs must remain oblivious to the Exile's gender, because it is undetermined what it is. Instead, all romance options must be very specific and plotted carefully to match the player's choice. [Hekate]Leia didn't get captured by them, no, no. Instead she got the incredibly empowering role of standing by and watching the Ewoks attempt to bar-b-que Luke & co after her little yelp that was supposed to be a protest: "But they're my friends". I'd add an exclamation mark, but that would be misleading. Luke uses his wit to get them out of the situation. No, he had the force, which is really a big advantage. And no, Leia wasn't captured. She saved Wicket's life and then decided to go with him. Not captured at all. She was free to leave whenever she wanted. It was when she began interfering with the captives that the Ewoks objected. [Hekate]Leia was oninously silent during the attempted roast (or maybe she just had a hankering to have some Han?) More humiliating would be Leia in the 'slave girl' outfit and chains being forced to let Jabba fondle her. Worse by a long shot. You seem to read a lot into that thong, but it is pretty humiliating for the guys to be captured like that too. But feel free to disagree all you want... [Hekate]That fleeting yet blissful moment wherein we agreed that KotOR II with a well writen story with a female as the lead is a good thing. You make it sound as if there can be "progress" only if I agree with you. In that case you're in for a disappointment. Besides agreeing that KotOR II was well written and that a female lead is good are two different things. I thought K2 was well written for the male Exile, but not the female Exile. I also think that a female lead need in no way need make a game "bad". I do not agree that having a female lead will by itself be a good thing, though - that's just misplaced sexism, since it suggests female leads are by definition somehow "better" better than male leads. [Hekate]So, in the light of the above paragraph, Mical's discoveries are significant pertaining to his character development, to the overall story, and to Exile since he explains his discoveries to her. Brianna's past is relevant to her character development and to a lesser degree to the overall plot. That would be how they have previously been compared. So to explain the reasoning behind my quote in red, i was refering specifically to how Mical brought plot relevance to Exile and to the player whereas Brianna could not by the virtue of her not being privy to such information. She knew of Atris' love for the Exile and asks him about it, thereby making it clear that he is aware of it. The only way that is not relevant to the overall plot is if Atris is not an important character, and that is not the case. Atris leaked the information about the meeting on Katarr to the Sith. Atris arranged for the Exile's return so that he/she would be a target for the Sith that would make them reveal themselves. Atris is the chief manipulator staging events early in the plot. There is no way she is not essential to the evolving plot. [Hekate]Using that argument though throws the whole Atris romance option out since all of it occurs without Exile knowing. Not so. Look at the quotes above, particular the Handmaiden's. [Hekate]i concur it is difficult to pretend the character doesn't know when the player does. Some of the Exile-free scenes added some info about Exile to the plzayer that wasn't a gapping plot hole without it, such as when Atton asks Kreia why Exile is so un-Jedi-like at Telos. But then the others, where plot relevant things Exile should know but get unceremoniously dumped onto the player with no reference base... yikes. The example that comes to mind is when Atton asks Kreia about Dxun's significance and suddenly we're told Exile fought there and it was the last stronghold of the Mandalorians. Hun? That and the introduction to Bao-Dur are among some of the worst parts of the game. It's okay that things are kept from me as a player, but not if they are things that my character clearly knows, while I do not. How the heck am I supposed to identify with *my* character if I'm not allowed to know him?!? [Hekate]Sure. But that isn't Mical's fault so why hold that against him and use that as a reason to disregard his worth as a character? Not saying it is, but it still hurts his significance as a character. Because what use it that he can figure these things out if they are not allowed to impact the plot? [Hekate]You don't hold it against Mira she ran around in the Jek'Jek'Tar in the spacesuit to go visit Visquis eventhough Exile ain't got a clue what is going on, do you? Exile is unconscious at the time. Can't get much more disengaged than that.. other than through death... Not a part of the main plot, and the Exile is presumed to find out about it just afterwards anyway. You can make just the same argument for Atton's fight with the twi'lek sisters, with T3's adventures in the warehouse, with the opening of the attempt to rescue the Exile from GOTO's yacht, and with the assault on Freedon Nadd's tomb on Dxun... We never hear anyone telling the Exile about these things, but it is presumed that he/she learns of them. [Hekate]Yes Mical does. He says there is a correlation in the worlds Revan targetted and all that technical stuff and says Revan was attempting to unite the galaxy and not conquer it. In fact, he's the fisrt person in the game to make that observation. Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks." Not saying it with any certainly, just conjecture. It may be compelling, but even so, it is not stated as fact. And he certainly doesn't say that Revan saved the republic by that action. You can just as easily read into it that Revan just knew the strategic value of Onderon and chose to not attack it on that basis, so that he could use its position to his own ends later. In fact, that is probably precisely what Revan intended in the coming conflict with the true Sith. That Onderon was unharmed therefore becomes a side-effect of Revan's long-term goals, and because of any benevolent intentions on Revan's part. And why would he have such intentions anyway? He was the dark lord of the Sith at the time... [Hekate]The thread about whether Exile is a Force leech or a Force siphon. On one hand the Jedi Masters claim Exile is responsible for the Sith's leeching abilities or that they learned it from Exile, but on the other, they claim Exile is a leech therefore logic would dictate one cannot add to something when one is taking away from it. The question of how, if Exile is a wound in the Force, can Exile even use the Force... All those lovely discrepancies within the Masters' own words and also in Kreia's. With Mical, it was relaxingly clear for once. Made as much sense to me the first time around when I was playing a male Exile... [Hekate]That isn't taking in the whole picture though. He obviously thinks there is some chance since he took the risk of asking Bao-Dur about it. i also cannot see what magician's hat you pulled the notion of his loving her on an idealized and platonic level from. Kreia: "Atton is, as always, the fool. And the Force watches out for ones such as him, I feel. As it does for the old such as I. There is no love left in a heart such as that one. But he would die for you, yes." [Hekate]He has little love for Jedi, and he sees them as having their hands as stained in blood as the Sith. He also states Jedi are hypocrits, untrustworthy, and goes as far as saying they deserved what they got at Malachor V. That is pretty brutal, raw, and definitely not putting her on a pedestal of being an indomitable icon. He even confronts her with asking her how can she live with herself. He aims bellow the belt. i would hardly call that ideolizing her. Atton is a very complicated person. Ah, but Atton has no choice but to see it that way if he is to live with himself, does he? I mean, if he's wrong, then what he has done is inexcusable, and though the Exile might - as Kreia puts it - forgive him for it, Atton would never be able to forgive himself. So he shifts the blame. It wasn't his fault - it was the jedi's fault. He lies to himself, but that is the only way he can bear to live, since he would be consumed by his own guilt if he didn't insist on keeping it at arms length like this. [Hekate]i really think you're way off on the Eowyn-Aragorn comparisson there. But even the much revered Jediphile with Revan-like qualities can make mistakes from time to time Sure I can. This is not one of them, though What Atton sees in the female Exile is someone who has done something terrible (like himself), but who may atone and be redeemed in spite of her crimes. She is an ideal, because if she can be redeemed, then maybe - just maybe - he can too. But it's just a hope - he doesn't believe it himself. And I'm not sure how aware he is of it all himself. It may all well take place entirely on Atton's subconscious levels, given all the terrors of his past that he is constantly fleeing from. [Hekate]And what's this about him loving specifically because she is close to perfection? It's not as if one has a choice over whom one loves. In that case, what is your trouble with Atris' love for the male Exile [Hekate]He didn't see her and put all his bagage aside and come up with this non-sensible notion of her reflecting perfection. Brianna though, has had much time to hear Atris' thoughts on Exile, and she has had the opportunity to develop some preconceived notions about Exile based on Atris' tellings and a long time for her curiosity to grow. She knows Exile disturbs Atris, gets under her skin in a personal way that no one else can. And that she finds compelling. Like a moth to flame made irrisistable with her exisisting curiosity about and a longing for becoming a Jedi. To an extent. But what really draws Brianna to the male Exile, I think, is what she projects onto him of her lost father. [Hekate]you just wait... you'll get yours Promises, promises... "

So is Kreia. " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mostly you can depend on her to stick a knife in your back when you're not looking... We do believe you, but do not trust you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you're saying that after all my time on these boards, all our discussions together, you still don't entirely trust me?!? There is hope for you yet...

None is what you get. The game offers the possibility of a prestige class when you reach level 15, but since three are LS and the other three are DS, you can't take them unless you're within about 25% of mastery of either extreme. Bad grey jedi! There is no reward for indecision - so no prestige classes for you!

Best explanation so far

If you're having trouble with the campaign as it relates to the PCs, then I advice running a few simple adventures until you get a good impression of who the main characters (the PCs) are first and then contruct your campaign and plot accordingly - players can be such a valuable source of inspiration, and should never been overlooked as such, especially if they make observations what they really would not like to happen... That's an admirable goal, but don't forget that even the greatest and best epics of moral dilemma can be boiled to such a simple idea. Your problem isn't that you have a bad foundation, but that you demand to see all the details of it from the beginning, and that almost never happens. No, decide on what your underlying theme will be of the above. Once you have that, make a very basic "skeleton" of your plot. Really, as simple as it can get - the sort of plot that you can write on the back of a stamp and still have room for the list of characters is fine as a beginning. Once you have that, begin adding detail. Who are the main villains? Why are they villians? Why do they do what they do? What are their backstories and secrets? Then move onto your major helpful NPCs and other significant non-playable characters in your campaing. As the same questions for them, and then answer them. You don't have a real campaign until you've populated it with interesting characters. And make sure some of them have flaws. My players are usually fairly amused by the cranky librarians and grumpy clerks I put in my campaign. Find some well known characters in movies and steal from them. It doesn't matter if its original, since the characters will often have changed so much by the time you're done writing them that they will have become unrecognizable. For example, if you put Han Solo in there, but make him into a woman, the character already begins to become difficult to identify. Not necessarily. Han Solo was a smuggler who cared about nobody. Jack Sparrow was a similar kind of pirate captain. Yet they still made the moral choice in the end. Your space pirate can to, it's just a question of pushing him into the choice and then be willing to live with it, if he doesn't make the choice you'd prefer he do. For example, if he's a pirate, let him attack a ship and board it for loot. However, the ship is on a diplomatic mission to settle a terrible war between two worlds, and if they don't reach their destination, then millions of people will die. Will the pirate condemn them all to horrible deaths? There's no way to avoid that choice now... And that's always relevant to ask. But there are times when you just have to put them in the position and then wait and see what they do. If all else fails, you can always ask the players themselves. It really isn't a bad idea to level with the players and ask them what they want to do, you know. Apart from making them actually think about it, it also signals that their answers will have significiant impact on the campaign, which is often what players really want. Certainly, when I begin to lose that feeling as a player, that's when I begin to lose interest in the campaign, because it begins to look like my choices don't matter, and that is poison to any campaign.

So that's what's dripping out over the topic... Ewww....

Very compelling argument there

Why doesn't that surprise me... Do we also have two thursdays in a week now?

And it's not the first time I pointed it out either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I sense conspiracy... I hated T3 in K1 - he was useless junk. But he's fairly useful and dependable in K2. Translation to common tongue commencing

It's Kreia, so you know she is not to be believed. All she has is the knowledge that T3 locked the navi-computer. She has no control over him whatsoever, though. There is nothing to suggest that. We are, but only if you build influence with HK-47. HK-47: "Statement: Oh yes, master. As indicated upon my reassembly, my central control cluster is damaged, making recalling my previously stored assassination protocols difficult.I hope that over time I shall eventually reach the status and skill I possessed before I was damaged.Recollection: The last thing I remember is having my core wiped from the last five years. I believe my master was responsible.Answer: Even with my memory impairment, I recall that my Master was about to embark on a dangerous journey. Conjecture: I believe there was something about my Master's destination that he did not wish me to know. Answer: I am somewhat disappointed that my Master did not choose to take me along, of course. Wherever my Master traveled, destruction and death were assured. Speculation: But I suspect I was not the only one left behind, so there is some satisfaction that the disrespect was spread through the rest of his whiny, simpering meatbag allies. Statement: Oh, yes. My master had quite the collection of tortured individuals that seemed unable to confront their basic personality conflicts. Let me cite some specific examples. Mockery: "Oh, master, I do not trust you! I cannot trust you or anyone ever again!"Mockery: "Oh, master, I love you but I hate all you stand for, but I think we should go press our slimy, mucus-covered lips together in the cargo hold!"Conclusion: Such pheromone-driven human responses never cease to decrease the charge in my capacitors and make me wish I could press a blaster pistol to my behavior core and pull the trigger. I am pleased that this does not seem to be the case with your current entourage." Sorry, but I couldn't help but quote the whole thing - that last bit is just too good not to quote... Don't forget the cutscene where HK-47 mocks T3 and muses on the "troublesome burden" placed on T3 concerning the navi-computer. HK-47 then tries to unlock the navi-computer, only to be promptly zapped by T3. When you then go and talk to HK-47, he's forgotten the whole thing and even praises T3 for all his abilities - T3 has clearly takes a few notes from Kreia... Well, I just don't believe T3 when he tells you that. He knew full well all along. Revan had just sworn him to secrecy, and T3 was programmed to remain true to that no matter how much influence you build with him. Like I said, T3 has learned from Kreia... LOL That's funny! You aren't the first to make such a comparisson <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You people are just so mean - it's all nasty rumors, I tell you... Honestly! Oh, I must have remembered it wrong. It does happen... :">

Methinks, if siding with Kreia, you have to defend her 3 times, then you're done. At least that is how i remember it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, I think it depends on which partymembers get to hurt each other. I seem to recall that if you defend Kreia (so that she may be redeemed later - LS choice) and then manage to hit each of the other crewmembers (thereby making them disappear) before any of them can hurt Kreia (and so make her disappear), then you get to replay the whole thing for another LS point each time. Only works so many times, however, since their positions relative to each other seem to depend on where they got to in the last confrontation, and so it will only be a matter of time before one of them reaches Kreia and hits her.

It would be a shame if they did not. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Besides, it might not be such a major thing to do. It just comes down to letting the options chosen have clear consequences in K3. That does not necessarily mean writing different plots for each possibility, which is unlikely in the extr... No, it's just not going to happen!

(w00t) (w00t) (w00t) (w00t) Someone voted for GOTO!!!! Hurry, someone call Satan and check if Hell has frozen over!!!!

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Given that, how is female Exile found to be lacking any more than male Exile? Because I find the male Exile's story to be more compelling and consistent than the female Exile's for the reasons I have described in recent posts. Entirely subjective, of course, but then it must be. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Which is clearly not the case with KotOR II. So again, for the umpteenth time, why the difficulty with cannon female Exile? No, it is a problem in K2, because the gender is optional and yet the game tries to both options. I have little doubt that the gaming experience could have been deeper if they had chosen a fixed gender from the beginning. Not that what's there is bad, I'm just saying the plot could have been more compelling had gender been determined in advance. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] What i do know is that Leia got caught by Jabba trying to rescue Han, and she is humiliated by being made into Jabba's plaything. To add insult to injury, she has to wear that lovely thong with a modesty cover patch of which Bianna's outfit is reminiscent. She is in chains and forced to endure Jabba fondling her. She does get to strangle him though, but only at the opportunity Luke presents. Luke waltzes in using Force powers, beats a Rancor, saves the day, and again saves Leia with a conveniently placed swinging line. Which one seems more heroic and self-confident to you? Leia does... because she at least is not captured by a bunch of cuddly teddy bears who then they don't even get to take revenge against (they want to eat Han and thinks that 3PO is a god, for crying out loud!!!) and who even gets to save the day in the end (fighting and defeating stormtroopers with bows and arrows... and rocks!!!). Which do you find more humiliating? (The only worse example I can think of is when they have the beholder chasing after a thrown rock in the D&D movie - A rock, I tell you!!!!!!!!!!!) Luke didn't so much go to heroically face Vader and the emperor as flee from the obvious embarrasment that the plot had forced upon the rebels... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] (w00t) So technically you are agreeing with me. i am glad 'cause i was really startin' to worry. I agree that I have no problem playing strong female leads in CRPGs. But that doesn't mean that I agree the female Exile story was better or as good as the male Exile story in K2. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] And with that we lose the progress we had made. Which progress? [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] i am fairly certain Zez-Kai Ell never spoke of Exile being a wound in the Force. i am also fairly certain he did not imply there is a connection to all of this through Malachor V. Those revelations were left for the big "ta-da" when the Jedi Council tells Exile all that stuff. The only way to find out what the others are yappin' about is when Kreia finally stops playing with Disciple and she gets him to tell her what he has figured out. Then they discuss the echoes, how the planets involved are significant and not random, and how it has the potential to kill all life if the wound isn't healed. I don't see how you can put significance on that and yet deny at the same time that the background of Brianna has no significance because it does not relate directly to the Exile. The female Exile never heard the conversation you refer to here, so by your own logic, it should be a non-issue. Besides, it's a spoiler, and that's never good. And it's a bad spoiler in the sense of telling me, as the player, that here is something that is important, only my character is not allowed to know it yet. In that case I don't want to know it all until my character finds out. It has long been a sore point for me, particularly in tabletop RPGs that I'd rather not hear things that I'm not allowed to act on, because it makes me second-guess what I can reasonably except my character to have deduced at certain points in the plot. I have often discussed this with a GM, who wanted to give general information to the group so that he wouldn't have to repeat it all later, even though some of our characters would not have that information yet. In those cases I asked to not be told or offered to leave the room, which the GM sometimes objected to, because it would mean a lot of role-playing for that info later. But I did prefer not to know, because then I would have no problem with having my character act however I chose to while the GM objected on the basis that I was making choices on the basis of information that I had but not my character. Obviously this is less of a problem in a CPRG, where the plot is completely linear and all my possible options for action determined in advance, but I still find it annoying. I want my big surprise, dammit! KotOR is cinematic, and I accept it, so I can live with it to some degree. For example, when Kreia forces Atton in the Telos academy, I learn as a player that Atton has a big secret, but the Exile doesn't. But the Exile finds out that there is more to Atton just after, when he talks to the handmaiden sisters, just not the magnitude of the secret. He can even bring it up with Atton afterwards. The Disciple revealing things about force wounds is far more annoying, however, because it relates directly to the Exile, and yet I'm not allowed to explore it myself. It's an annoying reset-button. I mean: Disciple: "Hey, I just figured something really important and it's this... I better go and tell the Exile *right* now!!!" Kreia: "No, we can't have that..." [insert random mind-wipe here] Bloody annoying!! [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Mical also informs Exile he has figured out that Revan was not out to destroy the Republic, but rather to protect it. No, he just speculates about it, and he's not the only one - GOTO does too. Or rather, you can very clearly deduce it from GOTO's comments. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] That made things clear in a way it isn't anywhere else in the game. As has been seen in other threads, the Jedi Masters and Kreia contradict themselves in their explanations of the Force wound, the Exile, and all that. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Yet in an earlier statement you say not knowing if Visas loves Exile for him or because he can defeat Nihilus makes it better: That is not applying the same rules across the board equally. No one knows how Exile feels about any of the NPCs because Exile never gets a chance to express her/his feelings. That does not just apply to Atton. Visas is the one who begged him to let her look on him. His responses, which i was quite unimpressed with actually, were very non-commital and quite dismissive. There came no resolution to how Exile felt about anything. Thus we can question every single one of every Exile incarnation's relationships. And on top of that, whether Atton could have her or not is up to her and not up to Kreia. If one uses Kreia having said that about Atton as an argument to decide his love is unrequitted, than none of Exile's potential relationships could ever come to fruition since Kreia disapproves of them all. No, we don't know what the Exile feels, but it does seem to me that there will be no relationship between Atton and the female Exile, not because the Exile doesn't have feelings (we don't know, or rather only the player knows), but because Atton doesn't seem to believe it himself. He loves her, but he does it on a purely idealized and platonic level - he would never accept it if she returned those feelings, because it would lower her in his eyes, and so their love is doomed by its very definition. Atton idolizes the female Exile and won't accept her as anything less. She's an ideal and he loves her for that. His love for her is a bit like Eowyn's for Aragorn in "Lord of the Rings" in that he loves the potential and the perfection of her more than the person herself. Brianna's love for the male Exile is a bit similar, but she is far more unaware of it than Atton is - he knows that his love is hopeless, because he would not accept it otherwise. At least that's my take on it. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]LOL you enjoy messing with my head way too much there, Jediphile. i just may return the favour one day... I shall wait with breathless anticipation... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] It cannot be denied female Exile is important to Atris. No, but we don't know why that is for the female Exile whereas it is obvious for the male Exile, and that hurts the credibility of the female Exile's plot. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Maybe Exile saved Atris' life, maybe Exile found out a dirty little secret of Atris' but didn't hold it against her and they developed a friendship. Who knows? Why does it even matter? It matters because that is the basis for the relationship between the Exile and Atris, and if the characters are to be compelling, then we need to understand their motives and reasons for doing and acting as they do. For Atris we get that in the male Exile's story, but not in the female Exile's. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Does anyone question why Brianna out of the blue falls for Exile? No. It is just an accepted fact. I did quesiton it, but the game answered the question, and the answer made sense. I understand her motives. That makes it compelling in the narrative. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Anakin fell because he became an arrogant sod. Padme had little to do with it. The Jedi find it much easier to cast blame on his fall on love than it is for them to admit that when he came under their care he was a kind child who put others before himself. 10 years thereafter he was conceited, impatient, and had dark side tendencies. He did not slaughter the Sandpeople village because he loved Padme. Nor was he reckless and disobedient because of Padme. I agree with this except that Padma had nothing to do with his fall. Sure, he was arrogant, impatient, and lusted for power, but even then, Anakin could see the difference between right and wrong, and he needed the threat against Padme as a pretext for embrasing the dark side, because he would never admit his lust for power to himself. So while your characterization is correct, I do not agree that Padme is irrelevant - he needed her as a catalyst for turning to the dark side, even if it was just a convenient excuse he used to convince himself. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]That isn't necessarily true. i had no clue Bao-Dur was supposed to have been a romantic interest until i read it in a thread. i didn't wonder at all if there was a difference between them when i first played just by virtue of Exile being female. And i still don't get at all how with Bao-Dur if there is attraction it obscures their being connected through Malachor V, yet it is said to add to Visas' and Atris' ties to the Exile. i can't understand why. This seem illogical and biased to me. It has to do with who they are as characters. Both Visas and Atris are strong and complex characters with a lot of depth and obviously hidden secrets. A character like Bao-Dur seems rather more uncomplicated by comparison. He isn't really, but his big secret is something he already shares with the Exile, so you already know what is troubling him, you already know his motives. He is open to the Exile in ways that Atris and Visas never will be (well, maybe Visas could be, but we're not sure for a long time). [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]The fact that Bao-Dur's connection to Exile comes from them both being in a war seems to be the only basis for that statement. She was a general. Deal with it. And even if he does have a thing for her, or her for him, or them for eachother, how does that attraction take away from their having shared a traumatic and life altering experience? In situations like those, feelings tend to arise. Precisely, and that's the problem. If they reached out to each other only on a basis of a horrible experience they shared, then that is not a good foundation for a lasting relationship. Besides, it brings the question of a Bao-Dur in love with the female Exile would confide his feelings to her, since she might be horrified and repulsed. He would not have that dilemma with a male Exile. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]i honestly do get the fact you don't like Mical. Really, i do. But whether someone in particular finds him exciting or boring doesn't have much to do with the issues we are discussing. What would the reaction be if i said (not that i am, i just mean for the sake of making a point) Brianna was an immature and childish exhibitionist. Pitchforks and molotov c0cktails, i'm sure. No, more like that we don't see nearly enough of that in computer games Seriously, she is a bit, which is why I prefer Visas... But Brianna does at least have an interesting story to tell, whereas Mical is just, "none of the other jedi wanted to play with me after you left...". Well, boo-hoo for you, Mical - let get out my violin for you... It's just not interesting, and I don't see it as particularly relevant to the story. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] In the game, there was no one to teach him. Stating logical facts that would point to this not being so is interesting for discussing, but those are not the in-game facts and they cannot be used to subvert in-game goings on. I guess part of my problem is that Mical's postulate that there were nobody left to teach him just doesn't make any sense - plenty of jedi were trained at the academies (including Bastila) after Revan and Malak went to fight the Mandalorian Wars, so the claims of no teachers really is not very plausible. In fact, I think it makes so little sense that I'll dare to say that Mical is either just lying or mistaken. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] In the replay i did to prove Mical didn't have anyone to teach him, he also states he is working for the Republic. To prove this is the following quote "I am on a diplomatic mission. I am one of several tasked with attempting to contact any remaining Jedi and convince them to return to the Republic." The issue up for debate was the complexity of the character, not the relevance it held to the overarcing plot. It is significant that he is working for the Republic with regards to character complexity. It has significance to the bigger plot too BTW. How so? It never comes up again later in the story, and Mical never reports in to Carth in the female Exile's story. So I'm going to disagree with you and conclude that it really doesn't matter, which is disappointing. At least there was some fallout for Brianna when she chose to follow the Exile over her masters... I guess Carth was just glad to be rid of Mical... [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Riiiiiight. And Atris, a Jedi Master loving a Jedi makes so much more sense. What I meant was why he didn't question these rules if he was clearly in love. Atris was not going to give up her position in any event, but Mical had no position yet and could just have left, if his emotions went against the jedi teachings. Yet the whole matter is just brushed over and the consequences of it ignored in Mical's case, which makes for some pretty bad storytelling. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] i never said Visas' ambiguity isn't fine. i never said Visas having feelings for male Exile only is somehow bad. All i said is i personally find it more compelling for Visas to be that devoted to Exile in all of Exile's incarnations rather than to have her love male Exile. i found it more intence for her to be drawn to the commonality between hers and Exile's pain than for her to be attracted to him since i felt her being so engrossed in her devastating past and not seeing a way out (for she does expect them all to die when confronting Nihilus) was lessened by the attraction. i also didn't say that Atton's obscurity added to the romance. i asked why Visas' should but Atton's shouldn't. Visas is a complex character, and it's not going to hurt her if you add emotions on top of the rest of her complexity. Rather, it helps to explain some of her ambiguity. If she needs the Exile to confront and defeat Nihilus, then the Exile is just a tool for her, but if she also loves him, then she has a dilemma. That adds to her character IMO. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Atton was absolutely in no way simple. He was not a stereotypical scoundrel in either the evil archetype nor the good archetype. The fact he is refered to as "the fool" has historical context and meaning. The fool is actually not an idiot, the fool is clever and manipulative and cannot be held down by others. I think that's a vast overinterpretation of what the term "fool" was used to suggest. It seems more to me like you're trying to rationalize the term because you didn't like the impression its use gave you of Atton. Besides, being a simple guy does not mean that Atton is stereotypical, it just means he is not as complicated as Visas or Atris. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]The fact Atton has a secret isn't the big deal, it is what Atton did, how he did it, and how he followed his own path that are the big deal. That he took a risk by telling Exile is a big deal. His motivations and the decisions he reaches are far from simple. He isn't simply swayed by others, nor is he independant of being affected by others which makes for a complex psyche. Atton is far from easy to figure out. Kreia does hold him captive in a sense, but does she really? She later tells him he let himself be held, yet it cannot be denied she still can exert some power over him. No one knows to what extent he let Kreia feel she has power over him nor if he was playing along. You seem to contradict yourself here, because you say Atton is complex, yet Kreia can figure him out in seconds and manipulates him with relative ease. That doesn't seem to me to support your claim of Atton's alleged complexity. And I don't agree that he is complex. Male or female, what the Exile thinks of him matters to Atton (he begs Kreia not to reveal his secret, after all), and he goes to great lengths to hide it. But once you realise it, you understand Atton fully and completely and can predict his actions most of the time. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]There seemed to be no doubt about Visas' loyalty to Exile. It was Kriea who suggested there was. Well, unlike Atton, Visas *did* try to kill the Exile. Not sure about you, but I tend to doubt people's loyalties in such cases... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] you're right about it being just thrown in there. Or poorly cut out. But i cannot see how it hurts female Exile's story. Just because Sion feels for her (ie obsession from afar type of deal perhaps?) doesn't mean she cares one whit for him. i can't see how a villian finding the main character beautiful detracts from that character. There is alot of potential in Sion, so i assume if other works were to be done about KotOR II, they would do it properly. Perhaps, but as it is, it is not very convincing to me. If they want to make it work, they must at least build a reason for Sion's emotions, and that is woefully lacking, which makes for poor storytelling. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Oh, get off it! How is Atton's relationship weaker than Brianna's, Atris', or Visas'? It isn't. So there. Well... how can I possibly counter eloquent argumentation like that... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Yes, even so, that doesn't make it more significant to Exile. Exile is the one who noticed how when Kreia repeated Brianna's vow to Atris she wouldn't be breaking her vow by becoming a Jedi. That she decided to become a Jedi is important. No question about that. The issue was how her becoming a Jedi and feeling as if she was breaking her vow impacted Exile. The Exile mentions several times that she will be breaking her vow to Atris if she accepts training, so clearly it was a signficant point to him. And it is important because of the ties to Atris, which can scarcely be said to be immaterial. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Brianna's parents have a direct tie to Malachor V. She had little to do with it other than the personal impact of her mother being presumed dead and her father being broken. Yusanis had nothing to do with Exile personally. No, but he sure did with Revan. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Mical is the one who lists Revan's former masters and that whole memory block he has comes up for Revan's master after Kae. Kreia mentions them, too, and Mical doesn't remember them all. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] And other than Kae having been one of Revan's masters, Kae is completely irrelevant to Exile (unless Exile is responsible for her death). Funny how earlier you state that Atton is irrelevant because he only brings insight about Revan, yet Brianna's mother is important eventhough she was only one of Revan's masters. Why is there such a bias between them? I never said that Kae was significant in this context, so you'll have to answer that assumption yourself. Nor did I say Atton was irrelevant (in fact, I said the opposite). I just said that he was not more significant than certain other characters and that his romance option with the female Exile took away from the story.

I just meant in the context of the theory that Kreia had some sort of control of the Ebon Hawk, which never seemed to be the case (although she does suggest so herself, but then... it's Kreia). Perhaps, but I don't see how that changes anything. It always seemed to me that Revan sought out Kreia, or rather the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, after he left the republic (""He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told"). I speculate that this was to get more information about the true Sith from the Trayus Academy before he went there. He met Kreia there, which is what she refers to. However, when he left, he went to the unknown regions, taking the droids with him on the EH. I don't recall at which point he left Canderous behind, though, but it might also have been in the unknown regions, or it might have been before given the Mandalorians' fear/reverence of Malachor V. Either way, I see nothing to suggest that the EH returned to Malachor V, because there seems no reason to, and in any event, Kreia tells us herself that Revan didn't ask her to come with him, nor does she really know where he went. Moi?!? Surely not...

Kreia: Ah, with the fear... is mingled guilt... it squirms in you like a worm. And the why... ah, and there is its heart. You surprise me - I could not feel it before... your feelings are a powerful shield, indeed. Do not worry, "Atton." {Taunting at 2nd sentence, knows its not that simple}If she is Jedi, she will forgive. And if she is not, she will not care. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes. Still, the guys in Nar Shaddaa who comment on Atton's background just say that they knew him under a different name, IIRC. So it's clear that he had a different name, but not which one was the real one...

Force enlightenment

Yes. While I agree with your first observation here, I don't see how you reach your conclusion that it will affect opposite force powers. Charisma is not a measure of willpower - that's what Wisdom is for and why it affects force powers. If you were right, Wisdom should affect opposite force powers more than Charisma does, and that is not the case.

Well, though I'd doubt Kreia's word no matter what, I'm not about to disagree with you. I definitely don't think she was on the Ebon Hawk at the time. I think she used Stealth to sneak aboard the Harbinger and then brought the drugged Exile to the Ebon Hawk. Where she came from is uncertain, though. I've thought in the past she might have been on Sion's sith warship, but she could also have had her own ship. But I don't think she was on the Ebon Hawk before she brought the Exile aboard it to the escape Sion and his sith assassins.

Ah, but the idea was to let the choices of the previous games have impact. If LS Revan and/or Exile would have "sacrificed" themselves to the dark side to fight the true Sith, but would both be redeemable. A DS Revan or Exile would not be redeemable, however, because they already abandoned the light.

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/578/578849p1.html Charisma Bonus to Force Powers (the same as Wisdom, and they stack), improves abilities with opposite aligned force powers (reduces cost), bonus to skill (Persuasion) and probably dialogue options, but I can't prove it. Decent to have, but again, you don't need it as much as you need other things at level one. I'd take a 10 here as well. Counterpoint: Charisma also adds a significant bonus to your allies "To Hit" rating, about twice your Charisma modifier. Also it reduces the costs in casting Force Powers opposed to your own alignment. Useful if you want a Light Sided Consular who can use Force Lightning. There's your answer... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Charisma, is usually related to speach, and good speaking ect. and yes what explained I understand, but then i dont see how speaking, a good skill with speaking can help with using opposite force powers <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's a d20 thing, which means it's above making any sort of sense. Lots of those rules just have things attached to it in some attempt to make all the stats equally important, no matter how unrealistic it is. For example, the relevant ability that affects the concentration skill in d20 (not just D&D) is constitution... There is no logic, there is only the force, so just accept it. [force persuade]These are the droids you're looking for. Move along [/force persuade]

Precisely Wisdom is essential to a jedi, which is what we're playing. I like Intelligence for the extra skill points, but Wisdom must be top. Dex and Str are important only to combat (either to do damage or to avoid attacks), but you can set them low and still be fine. Charisma is significant, but not essential. Con is only important for vitality, which you already have lots of.

if you meant to type 'neither LS or DS pts.' it's news to me; is that really possible? I thought the game just forces you into extremes (well sw being the simple moralistic tale that it is; it needs to be like that); so the only way to stay 'grey' is to artificially keep your points balanced by doing good and bad stuff alternately. That surely spoils the role playing experience altogether. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In some cases you do have a "balanced" way out that would suit the grey jedi, but it's usually only when you get LS or DS points for saying good or nasty things. In those cases where you must make a choice, you will invariably be forced to take either LS or DS points, yes.