Jediphile

And it's not the first time I pointed it out either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I sense conspiracy... I hated T3 in K1 - he was useless junk. But he's fairly useful and dependable in K2. Translation to common tongue commencing

It's Kreia, so you know she is not to be believed. All she has is the knowledge that T3 locked the navi-computer. She has no control over him whatsoever, though. There is nothing to suggest that. We are, but only if you build influence with HK-47. HK-47: "Statement: Oh yes, master. As indicated upon my reassembly, my central control cluster is damaged, making recalling my previously stored assassination protocols difficult.I hope that over time I shall eventually reach the status and skill I possessed before I was damaged.Recollection: The last thing I remember is having my core wiped from the last five years. I believe my master was responsible.Answer: Even with my memory impairment, I recall that my Master was about to embark on a dangerous journey. Conjecture: I believe there was something about my Master's destination that he did not wish me to know. Answer: I am somewhat disappointed that my Master did not choose to take me along, of course. Wherever my Master traveled, destruction and death were assured. Speculation: But I suspect I was not the only one left behind, so there is some satisfaction that the disrespect was spread through the rest of his whiny, simpering meatbag allies. Statement: Oh, yes. My master had quite the collection of tortured individuals that seemed unable to confront their basic personality conflicts. Let me cite some specific examples. Mockery: "Oh, master, I do not trust you! I cannot trust you or anyone ever again!"Mockery: "Oh, master, I love you but I hate all you stand for, but I think we should go press our slimy, mucus-covered lips together in the cargo hold!"Conclusion: Such pheromone-driven human responses never cease to decrease the charge in my capacitors and make me wish I could press a blaster pistol to my behavior core and pull the trigger. I am pleased that this does not seem to be the case with your current entourage." Sorry, but I couldn't help but quote the whole thing - that last bit is just too good not to quote... Don't forget the cutscene where HK-47 mocks T3 and muses on the "troublesome burden" placed on T3 concerning the navi-computer. HK-47 then tries to unlock the navi-computer, only to be promptly zapped by T3. When you then go and talk to HK-47, he's forgotten the whole thing and even praises T3 for all his abilities - T3 has clearly takes a few notes from Kreia... Well, I just don't believe T3 when he tells you that. He knew full well all along. Revan had just sworn him to secrecy, and T3 was programmed to remain true to that no matter how much influence you build with him. Like I said, T3 has learned from Kreia... LOL That's funny! You aren't the first to make such a comparisson <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You people are just so mean - it's all nasty rumors, I tell you... Honestly! Oh, I must have remembered it wrong. It does happen... :">

Methinks, if siding with Kreia, you have to defend her 3 times, then you're done. At least that is how i remember it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, I think it depends on which partymembers get to hurt each other. I seem to recall that if you defend Kreia (so that she may be redeemed later - LS choice) and then manage to hit each of the other crewmembers (thereby making them disappear) before any of them can hurt Kreia (and so make her disappear), then you get to replay the whole thing for another LS point each time. Only works so many times, however, since their positions relative to each other seem to depend on where they got to in the last confrontation, and so it will only be a matter of time before one of them reaches Kreia and hits her.

It would be a shame if they did not. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Besides, it might not be such a major thing to do. It just comes down to letting the options chosen have clear consequences in K3. That does not necessarily mean writing different plots for each possibility, which is unlikely in the extr... No, it's just not going to happen!

(w00t) (w00t) (w00t) (w00t) Someone voted for GOTO!!!! Hurry, someone call Satan and check if Hell has frozen over!!!!

[Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Given that, how is female Exile found to be lacking any more than male Exile? Because I find the male Exile's story to be more compelling and consistent than the female Exile's for the reasons I have described in recent posts. Entirely subjective, of course, but then it must be. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Which is clearly not the case with KotOR II. So again, for the umpteenth time, why the difficulty with cannon female Exile? No, it is a problem in K2, because the gender is optional and yet the game tries to both options. I have little doubt that the gaming experience could have been deeper if they had chosen a fixed gender from the beginning. Not that what's there is bad, I'm just saying the plot could have been more compelling had gender been determined in advance. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] What i do know is that Leia got caught by Jabba trying to rescue Han, and she is humiliated by being made into Jabba's plaything. To add insult to injury, she has to wear that lovely thong with a modesty cover patch of which Bianna's outfit is reminiscent. She is in chains and forced to endure Jabba fondling her. She does get to strangle him though, but only at the opportunity Luke presents. Luke waltzes in using Force powers, beats a Rancor, saves the day, and again saves Leia with a conveniently placed swinging line. Which one seems more heroic and self-confident to you? Leia does... because she at least is not captured by a bunch of cuddly teddy bears who then they don't even get to take revenge against (they want to eat Han and thinks that 3PO is a god, for crying out loud!!!) and who even gets to save the day in the end (fighting and defeating stormtroopers with bows and arrows... and rocks!!!). Which do you find more humiliating? (The only worse example I can think of is when they have the beholder chasing after a thrown rock in the D&D movie - A rock, I tell you!!!!!!!!!!!) Luke didn't so much go to heroically face Vader and the emperor as flee from the obvious embarrasment that the plot had forced upon the rebels... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] (w00t) So technically you are agreeing with me. i am glad 'cause i was really startin' to worry. I agree that I have no problem playing strong female leads in CRPGs. But that doesn't mean that I agree the female Exile story was better or as good as the male Exile story in K2. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] And with that we lose the progress we had made. Which progress? [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] i am fairly certain Zez-Kai Ell never spoke of Exile being a wound in the Force. i am also fairly certain he did not imply there is a connection to all of this through Malachor V. Those revelations were left for the big "ta-da" when the Jedi Council tells Exile all that stuff. The only way to find out what the others are yappin' about is when Kreia finally stops playing with Disciple and she gets him to tell her what he has figured out. Then they discuss the echoes, how the planets involved are significant and not random, and how it has the potential to kill all life if the wound isn't healed. I don't see how you can put significance on that and yet deny at the same time that the background of Brianna has no significance because it does not relate directly to the Exile. The female Exile never heard the conversation you refer to here, so by your own logic, it should be a non-issue. Besides, it's a spoiler, and that's never good. And it's a bad spoiler in the sense of telling me, as the player, that here is something that is important, only my character is not allowed to know it yet. In that case I don't want to know it all until my character finds out. It has long been a sore point for me, particularly in tabletop RPGs that I'd rather not hear things that I'm not allowed to act on, because it makes me second-guess what I can reasonably except my character to have deduced at certain points in the plot. I have often discussed this with a GM, who wanted to give general information to the group so that he wouldn't have to repeat it all later, even though some of our characters would not have that information yet. In those cases I asked to not be told or offered to leave the room, which the GM sometimes objected to, because it would mean a lot of role-playing for that info later. But I did prefer not to know, because then I would have no problem with having my character act however I chose to while the GM objected on the basis that I was making choices on the basis of information that I had but not my character. Obviously this is less of a problem in a CPRG, where the plot is completely linear and all my possible options for action determined in advance, but I still find it annoying. I want my big surprise, dammit! KotOR is cinematic, and I accept it, so I can live with it to some degree. For example, when Kreia forces Atton in the Telos academy, I learn as a player that Atton has a big secret, but the Exile doesn't. But the Exile finds out that there is more to Atton just after, when he talks to the handmaiden sisters, just not the magnitude of the secret. He can even bring it up with Atton afterwards. The Disciple revealing things about force wounds is far more annoying, however, because it relates directly to the Exile, and yet I'm not allowed to explore it myself. It's an annoying reset-button. I mean: Disciple: "Hey, I just figured something really important and it's this... I better go and tell the Exile *right* now!!!" Kreia: "No, we can't have that..." [insert random mind-wipe here] Bloody annoying!! [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Mical also informs Exile he has figured out that Revan was not out to destroy the Republic, but rather to protect it. No, he just speculates about it, and he's not the only one - GOTO does too. Or rather, you can very clearly deduce it from GOTO's comments. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] That made things clear in a way it isn't anywhere else in the game. As has been seen in other threads, the Jedi Masters and Kreia contradict themselves in their explanations of the Force wound, the Exile, and all that. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Yet in an earlier statement you say not knowing if Visas loves Exile for him or because he can defeat Nihilus makes it better: That is not applying the same rules across the board equally. No one knows how Exile feels about any of the NPCs because Exile never gets a chance to express her/his feelings. That does not just apply to Atton. Visas is the one who begged him to let her look on him. His responses, which i was quite unimpressed with actually, were very non-commital and quite dismissive. There came no resolution to how Exile felt about anything. Thus we can question every single one of every Exile incarnation's relationships. And on top of that, whether Atton could have her or not is up to her and not up to Kreia. If one uses Kreia having said that about Atton as an argument to decide his love is unrequitted, than none of Exile's potential relationships could ever come to fruition since Kreia disapproves of them all. No, we don't know what the Exile feels, but it does seem to me that there will be no relationship between Atton and the female Exile, not because the Exile doesn't have feelings (we don't know, or rather only the player knows), but because Atton doesn't seem to believe it himself. He loves her, but he does it on a purely idealized and platonic level - he would never accept it if she returned those feelings, because it would lower her in his eyes, and so their love is doomed by its very definition. Atton idolizes the female Exile and won't accept her as anything less. She's an ideal and he loves her for that. His love for her is a bit like Eowyn's for Aragorn in "Lord of the Rings" in that he loves the potential and the perfection of her more than the person herself. Brianna's love for the male Exile is a bit similar, but she is far more unaware of it than Atton is - he knows that his love is hopeless, because he would not accept it otherwise. At least that's my take on it. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]LOL you enjoy messing with my head way too much there, Jediphile. i just may return the favour one day... I shall wait with breathless anticipation... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] It cannot be denied female Exile is important to Atris. No, but we don't know why that is for the female Exile whereas it is obvious for the male Exile, and that hurts the credibility of the female Exile's plot. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Maybe Exile saved Atris' life, maybe Exile found out a dirty little secret of Atris' but didn't hold it against her and they developed a friendship. Who knows? Why does it even matter? It matters because that is the basis for the relationship between the Exile and Atris, and if the characters are to be compelling, then we need to understand their motives and reasons for doing and acting as they do. For Atris we get that in the male Exile's story, but not in the female Exile's. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Does anyone question why Brianna out of the blue falls for Exile? No. It is just an accepted fact. I did quesiton it, but the game answered the question, and the answer made sense. I understand her motives. That makes it compelling in the narrative. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Anakin fell because he became an arrogant sod. Padme had little to do with it. The Jedi find it much easier to cast blame on his fall on love than it is for them to admit that when he came under their care he was a kind child who put others before himself. 10 years thereafter he was conceited, impatient, and had dark side tendencies. He did not slaughter the Sandpeople village because he loved Padme. Nor was he reckless and disobedient because of Padme. I agree with this except that Padma had nothing to do with his fall. Sure, he was arrogant, impatient, and lusted for power, but even then, Anakin could see the difference between right and wrong, and he needed the threat against Padme as a pretext for embrasing the dark side, because he would never admit his lust for power to himself. So while your characterization is correct, I do not agree that Padme is irrelevant - he needed her as a catalyst for turning to the dark side, even if it was just a convenient excuse he used to convince himself. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]That isn't necessarily true. i had no clue Bao-Dur was supposed to have been a romantic interest until i read it in a thread. i didn't wonder at all if there was a difference between them when i first played just by virtue of Exile being female. And i still don't get at all how with Bao-Dur if there is attraction it obscures their being connected through Malachor V, yet it is said to add to Visas' and Atris' ties to the Exile. i can't understand why. This seem illogical and biased to me. It has to do with who they are as characters. Both Visas and Atris are strong and complex characters with a lot of depth and obviously hidden secrets. A character like Bao-Dur seems rather more uncomplicated by comparison. He isn't really, but his big secret is something he already shares with the Exile, so you already know what is troubling him, you already know his motives. He is open to the Exile in ways that Atris and Visas never will be (well, maybe Visas could be, but we're not sure for a long time). [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]The fact that Bao-Dur's connection to Exile comes from them both being in a war seems to be the only basis for that statement. She was a general. Deal with it. And even if he does have a thing for her, or her for him, or them for eachother, how does that attraction take away from their having shared a traumatic and life altering experience? In situations like those, feelings tend to arise. Precisely, and that's the problem. If they reached out to each other only on a basis of a horrible experience they shared, then that is not a good foundation for a lasting relationship. Besides, it brings the question of a Bao-Dur in love with the female Exile would confide his feelings to her, since she might be horrified and repulsed. He would not have that dilemma with a male Exile. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]i honestly do get the fact you don't like Mical. Really, i do. But whether someone in particular finds him exciting or boring doesn't have much to do with the issues we are discussing. What would the reaction be if i said (not that i am, i just mean for the sake of making a point) Brianna was an immature and childish exhibitionist. Pitchforks and molotov c0cktails, i'm sure. No, more like that we don't see nearly enough of that in computer games Seriously, she is a bit, which is why I prefer Visas... But Brianna does at least have an interesting story to tell, whereas Mical is just, "none of the other jedi wanted to play with me after you left...". Well, boo-hoo for you, Mical - let get out my violin for you... It's just not interesting, and I don't see it as particularly relevant to the story. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] In the game, there was no one to teach him. Stating logical facts that would point to this not being so is interesting for discussing, but those are not the in-game facts and they cannot be used to subvert in-game goings on. I guess part of my problem is that Mical's postulate that there were nobody left to teach him just doesn't make any sense - plenty of jedi were trained at the academies (including Bastila) after Revan and Malak went to fight the Mandalorian Wars, so the claims of no teachers really is not very plausible. In fact, I think it makes so little sense that I'll dare to say that Mical is either just lying or mistaken. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] In the replay i did to prove Mical didn't have anyone to teach him, he also states he is working for the Republic. To prove this is the following quote "I am on a diplomatic mission. I am one of several tasked with attempting to contact any remaining Jedi and convince them to return to the Republic." The issue up for debate was the complexity of the character, not the relevance it held to the overarcing plot. It is significant that he is working for the Republic with regards to character complexity. It has significance to the bigger plot too BTW. How so? It never comes up again later in the story, and Mical never reports in to Carth in the female Exile's story. So I'm going to disagree with you and conclude that it really doesn't matter, which is disappointing. At least there was some fallout for Brianna when she chose to follow the Exile over her masters... I guess Carth was just glad to be rid of Mical... [Jediphile,May 10 2006, 11:54 AM]And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Riiiiiight. And Atris, a Jedi Master loving a Jedi makes so much more sense. What I meant was why he didn't question these rules if he was clearly in love. Atris was not going to give up her position in any event, but Mical had no position yet and could just have left, if his emotions went against the jedi teachings. Yet the whole matter is just brushed over and the consequences of it ignored in Mical's case, which makes for some pretty bad storytelling. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] i never said Visas' ambiguity isn't fine. i never said Visas having feelings for male Exile only is somehow bad. All i said is i personally find it more compelling for Visas to be that devoted to Exile in all of Exile's incarnations rather than to have her love male Exile. i found it more intence for her to be drawn to the commonality between hers and Exile's pain than for her to be attracted to him since i felt her being so engrossed in her devastating past and not seeing a way out (for she does expect them all to die when confronting Nihilus) was lessened by the attraction. i also didn't say that Atton's obscurity added to the romance. i asked why Visas' should but Atton's shouldn't. Visas is a complex character, and it's not going to hurt her if you add emotions on top of the rest of her complexity. Rather, it helps to explain some of her ambiguity. If she needs the Exile to confront and defeat Nihilus, then the Exile is just a tool for her, but if she also loves him, then she has a dilemma. That adds to her character IMO. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Atton was absolutely in no way simple. He was not a stereotypical scoundrel in either the evil archetype nor the good archetype. The fact he is refered to as "the fool" has historical context and meaning. The fool is actually not an idiot, the fool is clever and manipulative and cannot be held down by others. I think that's a vast overinterpretation of what the term "fool" was used to suggest. It seems more to me like you're trying to rationalize the term because you didn't like the impression its use gave you of Atton. Besides, being a simple guy does not mean that Atton is stereotypical, it just means he is not as complicated as Visas or Atris. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]The fact Atton has a secret isn't the big deal, it is what Atton did, how he did it, and how he followed his own path that are the big deal. That he took a risk by telling Exile is a big deal. His motivations and the decisions he reaches are far from simple. He isn't simply swayed by others, nor is he independant of being affected by others which makes for a complex psyche. Atton is far from easy to figure out. Kreia does hold him captive in a sense, but does she really? She later tells him he let himself be held, yet it cannot be denied she still can exert some power over him. No one knows to what extent he let Kreia feel she has power over him nor if he was playing along. You seem to contradict yourself here, because you say Atton is complex, yet Kreia can figure him out in seconds and manipulates him with relative ease. That doesn't seem to me to support your claim of Atton's alleged complexity. And I don't agree that he is complex. Male or female, what the Exile thinks of him matters to Atton (he begs Kreia not to reveal his secret, after all), and he goes to great lengths to hide it. But once you realise it, you understand Atton fully and completely and can predict his actions most of the time. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]There seemed to be no doubt about Visas' loyalty to Exile. It was Kriea who suggested there was. Well, unlike Atton, Visas *did* try to kill the Exile. Not sure about you, but I tend to doubt people's loyalties in such cases... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] you're right about it being just thrown in there. Or poorly cut out. But i cannot see how it hurts female Exile's story. Just because Sion feels for her (ie obsession from afar type of deal perhaps?) doesn't mean she cares one whit for him. i can't see how a villian finding the main character beautiful detracts from that character. There is alot of potential in Sion, so i assume if other works were to be done about KotOR II, they would do it properly. Perhaps, but as it is, it is not very convincing to me. If they want to make it work, they must at least build a reason for Sion's emotions, and that is woefully lacking, which makes for poor storytelling. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Oh, get off it! How is Atton's relationship weaker than Brianna's, Atris', or Visas'? It isn't. So there. Well... how can I possibly counter eloquent argumentation like that... [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Yes, even so, that doesn't make it more significant to Exile. Exile is the one who noticed how when Kreia repeated Brianna's vow to Atris she wouldn't be breaking her vow by becoming a Jedi. That she decided to become a Jedi is important. No question about that. The issue was how her becoming a Jedi and feeling as if she was breaking her vow impacted Exile. The Exile mentions several times that she will be breaking her vow to Atris if she accepts training, so clearly it was a signficant point to him. And it is important because of the ties to Atris, which can scarcely be said to be immaterial. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM]Brianna's parents have a direct tie to Malachor V. She had little to do with it other than the personal impact of her mother being presumed dead and her father being broken. Yusanis had nothing to do with Exile personally. No, but he sure did with Revan. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] Mical is the one who lists Revan's former masters and that whole memory block he has comes up for Revan's master after Kae. Kreia mentions them, too, and Mical doesn't remember them all. [Hekate,May 11 2006, 07:33 AM] And other than Kae having been one of Revan's masters, Kae is completely irrelevant to Exile (unless Exile is responsible for her death). Funny how earlier you state that Atton is irrelevant because he only brings insight about Revan, yet Brianna's mother is important eventhough she was only one of Revan's masters. Why is there such a bias between them? I never said that Kae was significant in this context, so you'll have to answer that assumption yourself. Nor did I say Atton was irrelevant (in fact, I said the opposite). I just said that he was not more significant than certain other characters and that his romance option with the female Exile took away from the story.

I just meant in the context of the theory that Kreia had some sort of control of the Ebon Hawk, which never seemed to be the case (although she does suggest so herself, but then... it's Kreia). Perhaps, but I don't see how that changes anything. It always seemed to me that Revan sought out Kreia, or rather the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, after he left the republic (""He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told"). I speculate that this was to get more information about the true Sith from the Trayus Academy before he went there. He met Kreia there, which is what she refers to. However, when he left, he went to the unknown regions, taking the droids with him on the EH. I don't recall at which point he left Canderous behind, though, but it might also have been in the unknown regions, or it might have been before given the Mandalorians' fear/reverence of Malachor V. Either way, I see nothing to suggest that the EH returned to Malachor V, because there seems no reason to, and in any event, Kreia tells us herself that Revan didn't ask her to come with him, nor does she really know where he went. Moi?!? Surely not...

Kreia: Ah, with the fear... is mingled guilt... it squirms in you like a worm. And the why... ah, and there is its heart. You surprise me - I could not feel it before... your feelings are a powerful shield, indeed. Do not worry, "Atton." {Taunting at 2nd sentence, knows its not that simple}If she is Jedi, she will forgive. And if she is not, she will not care. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes. Still, the guys in Nar Shaddaa who comment on Atton's background just say that they knew him under a different name, IIRC. So it's clear that he had a different name, but not which one was the real one...

Force enlightenment

Yes. While I agree with your first observation here, I don't see how you reach your conclusion that it will affect opposite force powers. Charisma is not a measure of willpower - that's what Wisdom is for and why it affects force powers. If you were right, Wisdom should affect opposite force powers more than Charisma does, and that is not the case.

Well, though I'd doubt Kreia's word no matter what, I'm not about to disagree with you. I definitely don't think she was on the Ebon Hawk at the time. I think she used Stealth to sneak aboard the Harbinger and then brought the drugged Exile to the Ebon Hawk. Where she came from is uncertain, though. I've thought in the past she might have been on Sion's sith warship, but she could also have had her own ship. But I don't think she was on the Ebon Hawk before she brought the Exile aboard it to the escape Sion and his sith assassins.

Ah, but the idea was to let the choices of the previous games have impact. If LS Revan and/or Exile would have "sacrificed" themselves to the dark side to fight the true Sith, but would both be redeemable. A DS Revan or Exile would not be redeemable, however, because they already abandoned the light.

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/578/578849p1.html Charisma Bonus to Force Powers (the same as Wisdom, and they stack), improves abilities with opposite aligned force powers (reduces cost), bonus to skill (Persuasion) and probably dialogue options, but I can't prove it. Decent to have, but again, you don't need it as much as you need other things at level one. I'd take a 10 here as well. Counterpoint: Charisma also adds a significant bonus to your allies "To Hit" rating, about twice your Charisma modifier. Also it reduces the costs in casting Force Powers opposed to your own alignment. Useful if you want a Light Sided Consular who can use Force Lightning. There's your answer... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Charisma, is usually related to speach, and good speaking ect. and yes what explained I understand, but then i dont see how speaking, a good skill with speaking can help with using opposite force powers <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's a d20 thing, which means it's above making any sort of sense. Lots of those rules just have things attached to it in some attempt to make all the stats equally important, no matter how unrealistic it is. For example, the relevant ability that affects the concentration skill in d20 (not just D&D) is constitution... There is no logic, there is only the force, so just accept it. [force persuade]These are the droids you're looking for. Move along [/force persuade]

Precisely Wisdom is essential to a jedi, which is what we're playing. I like Intelligence for the extra skill points, but Wisdom must be top. Dex and Str are important only to combat (either to do damage or to avoid attacks), but you can set them low and still be fine. Charisma is significant, but not essential. Con is only important for vitality, which you already have lots of.

if you meant to type 'neither LS or DS pts.' it's news to me; is that really possible? I thought the game just forces you into extremes (well sw being the simple moralistic tale that it is; it needs to be like that); so the only way to stay 'grey' is to artificially keep your points balanced by doing good and bad stuff alternately. That surely spoils the role playing experience altogether. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In some cases you do have a "balanced" way out that would suit the grey jedi, but it's usually only when you get LS or DS points for saying good or nasty things. In those cases where you must make a choice, you will invariably be forced to take either LS or DS points, yes.

[continued from last post] As Xard has already pointed out, there were plenty of other jedi around - the order did not suddenly crumble because there were no jedi left to teach others. Revan and Malak were fairly young jedi, and so were most of those who followed them to war, which doesn't suggest they were teachers. Sure, some undoubtedly were, but more likely the majority were students who left their masters. You need look no further than Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar to see masters who lost or missed students. So it seems unlikely nobody was there to teach Mical. No basis for that assumption (beyond presumptions based on the male Exile's story) and no impact on the story whatsoever. You're completely overlooking the Handmaiden's father, who she in no small way sees in the Exile, as evidenced by the quotes above. That's where her story with the Exile comes from, along with his significance on Malachor V, where her mother died. And I don't think Mical's love for the female Exile makes so much sense, when he was training to be a jedi, who are not allowed to have such emotions. I might equally well ask you why it is fine for obscurity in Atton's case, but not for Visas. Besides, I do see an important distinction in those characters themselves. Atton is a fairly simple guy - the uncomplicated soundrel. "The fool" as Kreia would say. He hides a bit secret, but once you get that, Atton is pretty simple to figure out. Kreia also controls him pretty easily as a consequence by simply playing on his fears. He does not have the depth to see beyond that himself and tell her what to go do with herself. Visas, on the other hand, is complex by her very nature. The veil covers more than just her eyes. It is an indication of all the things that lie hidden within her. And she's difficult to figure out. She is often said to be totally submissive to the Exile (particularly the male Exile), yet she has no trouble refusing to wear the thong or admonish the Exile for taking risks or generally refuse that he/she confront Nihilus. You expect complexity, mystery, even potential betrayal in her. Another layer doesn't matter, because she is already pretty ambigious to begin with, unlike Atton. Good - you're learning... I'd probably agree with you if it were not for the fact that I just don't buy Sion's alleged love for the female Exile. There is no basis for it. It's just thrown in there as a gimmick in the 11th hour IMHO, and you have to accept it as such, which I don't. And therefore I think it hurts the female Exile's story in K2. Well, Bao-Dur just isn't a romance option (and shouldn't be IMHO - it ruins the warbuddy perspective, which is the significant part), so I don't see how it can be counted. Otherwise the number of relationships are the same for male/female, at least on the surface. As I've said, I'm not buying the Atton-female Exile relationship, and even if I did, I would definitely see that as weaker than those of the male Exile. Be that as it may, both Atris and Brianna herself both did see it as betrayal against Atris. No, Brianna has direct ties back to Malachor V through her parents, and that is tied directly to the Exile. Mical doesn't. He may have known the female Exile, but apparently didn't care enough to follow her. And Brianna is more than just a subplot, due to the similarities she sees between her father and the male Exile. She never names her mother herself, but interestingly Kreia does, and to the male Exile. Brianna presence makes Kreia tell you more about Arren Kae than Mical ever does. No. Kreia admits herself that she can do this. And though she claims not to control the Exile, she also admit that he/she wouldn't be able to tell the difference, if she did, so I don't think that is entirely correct. [the end - honestly! ]

[continued from last post] The problem is that I don't believe that the female Exile loves Atton. Neither does Atton, for that matter... And I don't agree that he has more impact than anyone else. Sure, his secret is significant to Revan's corrupting influence, but you could say the same about Bao-Dur's doomsday-machine or Visas' ties to Nihilus - they're all important to the plot. In fact, among the three mentioned here, Atton's is probably the least important, since Revan is not in the game, whereas you must confront both Nihilus and Malachor V itself... Nah, I'm just messing with you - Atton is as significant, but not more so, I think. She's reduced to an info-dispenser. All she's good for is getting information from, just like 3727 other forgettable NPCs inhabiting the game. As for Atris being affected by the Exile, how do you figure that - the Exile isn't even important enough to send her lowest servant after her. Scarcely an indication of importance... Handmaiden: "Because when my father returned from the Mandalorian Wars, he walked as you do now. There was something wounded inside him. He did not speak of what had happened there. And with us, he was silent. Changed. When I look upon you, I see in you an answer to a question I have searched for all my life. And that is why I tell you this now. I do not believe you to be the monster Atris made you out to be. I believe your choice was my father's choice, and it was just as difficult. I do not claim to understand you. There are times when your actions are a mystery to me - but I do not wish my actions to be a mystery to you.Malachor V is the place where I lost my mother and my father. But it was their choice to fight the Mandalorians - and to die there, if Malachor was to be their grave." Handmaiden: "My father broke his oaths. He shamed us all. I do not wish to follow his path... I swore not to follow his path. If I were to follow a Jedi against Atris' wishes, then I would be betraying her. For you. This is a difficult thing for me to say, but I ask that you be silent as I tell you this.It is my desire to learn from you what you can teach me of battle. I have already learned much in our duels, but with every battle, I wish to know more of you.Your stance, your movements, I can sense shades of meaning, and an echo of something I have yet to experience.Atris said that you were the only Jedi to have survived the Mandalorian Wars. That you had stared into the heart of war, and only turned away because you were forced to.I do not believe her. I believe that you made a choice... as my father did. And that is important to me, more than you know.And you are important to me, more than you know. I will accept whatever you wish to teach me, though it breaks my oath to Atris. Not quite the same thing, I think, and not just her personal story either... Because it begs the question of what she admired. For the male Exile, she was in love with him. Fine, I get that. But what about the female Exile? It was clearly before the Exile left for the Mandalorian Wars, which puts it at least twelve years before K2. It could be a few years earlier, but I doubt it is more, or it would be too far back in time to be credible given the Exile's apparent age IMHO. Well, we disagree there. We saw Anakin fall because he loved Padme and couldn't bear to lose her. That Atris (cold ice-queen that she is...) should have a similar fate appeals to me Pretty strong impact in my book. Right, but the second the Exile can hear Bao-Dur's thoughts but Kreia can't, you'll begin wondering if there is a deeper connection, if the Exile is female. I think that obscures how the connection really comes from Bao-Dur being involved directly in the one defining moment of the Exile's life that altered him/her completely. Sure, other NPCs may highlight specific aspects, but Bao-Dur's presence is a reminder of the very focal point of where all the Exile's trials led both to and from. It is to me. [continued...]

I do agree that the Exile was fairly weakly characterized, but given your call for strong female leads, that actually sounds like more of an argument for a male Exile, I think... Because any narrative plot, whether in movies, books, tv-shows, or even computer games should be founded on good writing and not trying cater to a basis of equality. I have no problem playing a female character, not even if it is forced on me, as long as it is done well and purposefully in the plot. But most gamers seem to be male, and they are apparently either too daft to accept leading female characters, or else the developers think they are (I'm not to pass jugdment on which is more likely), and so we get mostly male character leads in our games because the devs target their demographics specifically. I don't think the Tomb Raider games count in this context (though I have played several of them), because Lara Croft is not a particularly deep characters - her primary advantage, as I see it, seems to lie in her rather large... ahem... ratings! So, yes, I'd be hard pressed to point to a game where I played the female lead and liked it. However, this is more because such games are rare (to say the least) and often try to sell themselves on that aspect alone rather than being good plot That's not a fair basis of comparison, because at that point Luke had trained for years for that confrontation alone, and even then he admits to Obi-Wan that he cannot face Vader. Leia just had it dropped in her lap in two seconds and had to deal with it all at the same time, "yes, I'm your brother, oh, and Vader's our father - so what do you think?" Is a strong reaction unjustified in this case? I think not. Besides, Luke himself did indeed flee when he learned the truth, so how can you blame Leia for it? And you're misinterpreting Leia's motives too, I think. She wasn't trying to flee because she feared Vader, she was trying to make Luke flee, because she was afraid of what would happen to him if he faced Vader. Her concerns were never for herself. Leia: "No, Luke. Run away. Run far away. If he can feel his presence, then leave this place! I wish I could go with you...". Luke: "No, you don't. You've always been strong." No, Leia is clearly stronger in her convictions than Luke, and Luke knows it too. Sure, at this point Luke has become fairly strong and self-confident, but it took this long for him to get anywhere close to the point where Leia already was. She never doubts her skills or duties, and she never thinks of her own safety as she pursues them. As for Luke becoming the most powerful jedi, well he *did* have a few years "head start" on Leia. Leia is no weakling, though. If you count the "Dark Empire" comic books, she has to face not only the reborn Emperor, but also Luke who has fallen to the dark side, and she is not only victorious, standing up to Luke in lightsaber-battle along the way, but also manages to redeem him. Nope, definitely not weak. Padme is a pretty strong character. She doesn't have force powers, of course, but she don't need to in order to be a strong character. I could mention Mara Jade or Nomi Sunrider, but then people always get miffed when we bring up characters from the books or comics or other bits of the EU. Funny, really, given that KotOR is EU... Of course not, but then I think I've already answered that question above... No problem for me. Just write appropriately strong plot for it. K2 is simply stronger plot with the LSM Exile IMHO. The conversations with Disciple never had that impact on me. Mostly they were just boring rehash of what I'd already heard from Kreia or one of the masters. I learned far more of the Exile's powers and bond from talking to Zez-Kai Ell than I did from listening to Disciple. And I hate when I'm given information that I'm allowed to know as a player, but which my character is not allowed to know or act on. It's not quite as terrible here as in a real tabletop RPG, but it's still pretty frustrating... As for the other characters being "extraneous": Mira is the "kid sister" in K2. She serves a bit of the same function that Mission did in K1, but she's also the hard kid who has to have her eyes opened to a different world than the harsh one she lived in, so that she can evolve to something better. That's what the whole "jedify Mira" scene is about IMHO. Mandalore is there to serve as a connection back to Revan. I would agree, though, that he does not need to be a party member to serve that function, and he's pretty boring as a companion, if you ask me. I never used him much... Hanharr I do consider a rather failed character. I hear he was originally intended to also become a jedi (or rather sith), but then LA told the devs that they weren't allowed to do that. Hanharr is nasty and has little interest. Once he's "broken upon my will" and gives me the bonus you can unlock as a DS'er, I never use him again. Most DS-players seem to prefer "falling" to the LS a little in Nar Shaddaa just so they can get Mira in the group and then corrupt her completely. But then that might just be because she can be jedified, and they want that for the "uber-army of sith that completely pwn everyone else ever!!!!" or whatever testosterone drivel they tell themselves It would be interesting to see if they still took Mira even if they could turn Hanharr into a sith... Because I wouldn't know if the female Exile loved him or just pitied him, or even if Atton loves her simply because he knows he can never have her. Either way, is it really love? For the Exile it could just be pity, and for Atton it could just be fantasy. Atton seems to think so... Atton: "Oh, yeah, one other thing - don't think I haven't noticed the way you've been sparring with our ex-Jedi friend. This isn't some pleasure yacht, so if I did know all the Echani movements, I might know more than just the first tier, including the etiquette rituals. So keep your hands where I can see them." Fair enough, but there is still no romance in that. [continued...]

Every stat turns into modifiers according to this formula: modifier = (stat -10)/2 Thus, if you have intelligence 16, you get a +3 modifier (16-10 = 6, 6/2 = 3), and therefore you get 3 bonus skill points every time your advance in a new level (in addition to those you already get from your chosen class). I find skills to be significant in both games, though certainly more so in K2 than in K1. Also, the skill point awards for the jedi guardian is corrupted in K1. Even though I had Int 14, I still got only those two bonus skill points from my Int and nothing from actually advancing. K2 seems to do it right, though. And you want high Int because you can build massive skills (and actually use them for something) as well as gain extra conversation paths at times. All stats/ability scores max out (initially) at 18. I don't recommend going that high, though, as you it costs two "points" during character creation instead of one to raise an ability score above 14. Besides, you can always max them out later, when you raise your ability scores by one point every four levels, as these increases have no "double-cost for high stats"-rule associated with them.

We're not touching it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm glad to hear that. I don't think this scene presents a problem. It's called "Death of the Ebon Hawk" because we see the Hawk fall to its death... We do not see it die, however, which allows for whatever outcome is desired. If Bao-Dur and T3 (both notably absent in the endings, even in the cut content) were aboard repairing the Hawk, then there is basis for saying that it fell, but managed to restart its engines before it was smashed. In the LS ending this was significant, because the Hawk is necessary to save the Exile, when Malachor V is destroyed. In the DS ending it doesn't matter, though, because Malachor V remains unharmed. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

That's the way to do it, yes. EDIT: Oh, and you can go for the neutral choices instead of the extreme ones (which gives either LS or DS points).

Probably more than one... But really, how can you blame us - even Luke used Choke on the gamorreans in RotJ. He did never use Force Storm, though, did he... :">

Yes, that would be it. You have to either listen to his sob-story and then buy the charges or else just take them from his cold, dead hands...

For a DSF Revan, Carth should be dead and not appear in the game at all... In fact, Carth should be gone for a DS Revan, regardless of gender.