Jediphile

Luke doesn't need an "attack" to use his force powers. Besides, the opposite argument is just as true - force crush is useless if not used first, and that's just presuming the Exile has force crush, which is not the case by canon, since it says that the Exile is LS. Whatever... Palpatine held his own against two other jedi masters next to Mace and even had him at his mercy, so even if he lost, it speaks nothing of who was more powerful. We might just as well speculate that Mace was just lucky. He did, but that was two full decades before he became the force god of the New Jedi Order era. Read the timeline. So what? That doesn't prove their were more powerful in any way. Yeah, I've heard that too, though it never made much sense to me. I mean, the force is a mental discipline, right? So what does it matter if you don't have all your limbs? The only logical conclusion from everything said about the force is that your prowess at it depends entirely on your mental affinity for the force. I mean, isn't that why Yoda is one of the most powerful jedi ever even though he looks small and even infirm? The Exile being a wound in the force is not something he can use to his advantage during a fight. You make it sound as if it's something he can switch on and off during a fight to his advantage. But playing through K2 sure doesn't seem so - he can lose every fight he is in, so it doesn't seem to be a relevant point at all. I did it as a Sith Lord, and I didn't so much kill Sion as I did my my own fun - it was probably the most boring thing I've ever had the misfortune of playing. Just pressing the same button a gazillion number of times and then go through the futile conversations is about as fun as watching paint dry. Playing the LS side, where you actually had to care about what you did and said was far more challenging. YES!! Teh DS crush pwns all!!!

In "Knights of the Old Repubic" ? Not likely...

Yes, but that's a feat (actually several) and not a buff power (force power).

What a scary thought. Don't let Lucasarts hear that!! :ph34r: No you can't. You're a very silly person and I'm not going to interview you... (My apologies to those who are not into Monty Python )

You get one or the other after you meet with the masters in the enclave toward the end of the game.

I'd rather have the big battle at the end of the game where I can really appreciate as a part of the plot, and one that I had direct influence on.

The way the first two questions are put implies that the Architect is proposing ideas pertaining to the beginning of the game. So I asked: Well if the 'beginning' had the character more or less of what's described under option 4, then how could the Exile relate to that later on in the course of the game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I know that is not the case because the idea of having the Exile's companions lead the academy is one he uses the same way I did in my own plot suggestion. The presumption is that the Exile left his friends behind to follow Revan to the unknown regions (as K2 suggests at the end), and they then began a new academy by themselves. The Exile is not involved at all, since he/she is off in the unknown regions to aid Revan. EDIT: "You can't be on television - it's not even a real nose!"

It does have to stop somewhere, but it cannot stop now. It's a continued story at the end of K2, and we need the resolution. But yes, I want K3 to bring closure to Revan and Exile so that they will not be relevant to a K4, at least not in a manner that has direct bearing to the plot.

Exile and Revan should be killed by the new main character

Is he? How so? I sure didn't see him die - I just saw him disappear in some strange red haze...

Because Exile's gender still isn't set and wasn't even decided internally among Lucasfilm at that time. Moreover, Leland Chee said that Exile's name is unlikely to ever be revealed. So the best they can do is hint, but if Exile turns out to be female, all these hints will be worthless. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why would the Exile being either gender have any relevance to the connection to Nihilus? I know I've suggested a direct connection between Exile and Nihilus, but I did actually take the question of the Exile's gender into consideration when I made my speculations...

If you kill the masters, yes. Killing just one master seems to force the DS ending, no matter how LS you might otherwise choose to be.

Goddamit - how I loathe this bloody quotation system that won't allow me to post more than a few quotations before it decides to bollocks it all up!!!! Someone begs to be put against be put summarily before a firing squad!!!!!! :angry: Anyways... Nah, there must be some other explanation... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right. A few options: - Yes - No! - I wanted to confuse the enemy. - "To get to the other side" - "42" Yes, but there is also the possibility that those people were sith who boarded the ship. Could have been a sith boarder or a crewmember from the Harbinger trying to escape the sith assault on the Harbinger, and he was killed when the Ebon Hawk was crippled when it tried to escape. Perhaps the life-support system was hit and he suffocated, while we know that Kreia could have simply used her Force Breathing technique.

"from the last 5 years" that would be everything from the begining of KotOR until the start of KotOR II. So the question still begs, who deleted the years since Revan did leave even if Revan deleted the year previous to her/his leaving? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess those five years may be relative. We're not sure when Revan abandoned the droids, but then we're also not sure how long HK-47 has been shut down. He may simply mean the number of years he recollects having been erased, but not those during which he was shut down. So it really is difficult to say. HK-47's master is undoutbedly Revan, I think. Nothing else seems to make sense. Nobody. He's not any arms or such when you find him, he's just damaged beyond repair in some critical areas. He was likely just damaged a lot during the confrontation with the Sith warship, methinks. I see T3 displaying that hologram as an analogy to R2 displaying Leia's to Luke in episode 4. He did not intend to, but as a droid he did not have the option of denying it was there, so he showed it and then made up some silly story about it. Besides, displaying the hologram is a way of saying, "look, I'm not making this up, see? But that's all I know about it..." "If I am being mean it's because I care" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Riiiiggghht... Rule #48 "The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife."

GOTO didn't know - HK-50 says himself that it was a matter of pure luck that he stumbled across the Exile, and then followed his programming accordingly. First, the Harbinger didn't "see" the beat-up Ebon Hawk - they received a distress call from it. The Captain mentions in his logs that they received a message from a transport claiming to be under attack from a sith warship. You even get to see a cutscene, where he contacts an excited Carth/Cede who promptly orders the Harbinger to investigate and bring the Ebon Hawk back to Telos. Second, I've wondered about who all those (dead) people on the Ebon Hawk as well, but it might be that they are Sith soldiers who boarded the Ebon Hawk from the sith warship and were then killed in combat. Where 3C-FD came from is completely beyond me, though. IIRC, there is a log where the security chief talks about the droids going crazy and then mentions that he set up extra precautions around the cell (where Atton is captured) in order to prevent anything from happening there. Ironically Atton survives because they locked him down tightly...

[Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] The upper portion describing how Atris is upset by Exile holds true for either sex of Exile as the previous paragraph emphasizes. Though i'm not saying there isn't the potential for romantic subtext. Brianna asking if Exile and Atris were involved; however; when i played through as male Exile, seemed to stem from her feelings for Exile, her curiosity about him and the Jedi culture revolving around love. Brianna seems to be a very self-oriented person in the sense of she relates to things and people by how she preceives and feels about things herself rather than what others may think and feel (not meant as an insult). So her asking if Exile cared for Atris romantically those 10 years ago as Jedi doesn't necessarily prove Atris feels that way about Exile though it does add credence to that argument. Now let's examine that quote again: Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." Now, from the first bold-faced part, we know that Atris has feelings for the male Exile. You may question at this point what those feelings are, but you don't get to question that they are there, unless you're adamant about denying Brianna's observations. In the second bit I've put in bold-face, Brianna then goes on to talk about romantic love between jedi. Now, who are we talking about here? It is obvious that Brianna has "heard" of jedi who fall in love and leave the order (that's what her mother did), but she is not talking about Kae and Yusanis in this conversation. She is talking about love *between* jedi - as in both people must be jedi (and Yusanis was not). By the same logic, she is not talking about herself and the Exile either, because at this point Brianna is not a jedi herself (and it may still be doubted whether the Exile is a jedi or something else...). That leaves with only one possible conclusion. She is talking about the Exile and Atris. You have been adamant in denying that the love between is openly there in the game, but it is right here. So as long as you continue to deny it, it seems pointless to me to discuss the matter further. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] He used his ingenuity to come up with the idea of levitating C3-PO, it was a clever idea. Whereas Leia stood by and had nothing to add after her initial protest. i was agreeing Leia wasn't captured by them. Infact, that she wasn't captured and did so little to attempt to help them is the weakness i was speaking of. Calling that weakness only has meaning if Leia was helpless. I do not agree that she was. But she's a diplomat, whereas Luke is a jedi knight. Diplomacy takes time. Luke didn't give her that time, so it's unfair to mark Leia as weak because Luke couldn't be bothered to give her time to make her diplomacy work. You completely forget that Leia tells 3PO to translate, and when the Ewoks still won't listen, Luke cuts Leia off and tells 3PO to tell the Ewoks that he'll be angry and use his magic if they don't listen. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] It wouldn't matter if every single one of the those captured by the Ewoks were female and if it was Luke who was enslaved by Jabba instead. In that case Luke's predicament would have been more humiliating, moreso if he was forced to wear only a codpiece. Luke actively prevented Han from getting violent with the Ewoks so their capture was not from them being incompetent. Luke could lift the massive door into Jabba's place so certainly he could have knocked all the Ewoks on their butts if he had wanted to. It shouldn't be overly personally humiliating for them to have been captured in that way when they allowed it to happen. Being tied up and carried on a pole is humiliating, but Leia was chained around her neck, treated as a slave, and as a sexual object. That is more humiliating, especially with a crowd of unsavoury spectators to gawk and leer and her humiliation lasted longer than theirs. Han sure didn't seem to me to feel that way while the Ewoks were trying to light a fire under him... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]As far as the thong goes... it is a point of contention for me. It was not so much that it was in there as opposed to its execution. And it is a repeated theme in the SW universe i've been exposed to and i find it irksome. Fair enough, but that's your own personal opinion. I don't really disagree, I just don't think it's particularly relevant to the discussion. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i meant that KotOR II with a well writen female Exile lead would be a good story as something we agree on since we already agree on KotOR II with a well writen male Exile would be a good story. i never said a female lead just for the hell of it is a good thing either. Just look at alot of the tripe out there with female leads and it becomes quite apparent. As far as the female bias is concerned, suggesting there should be more strong female leads is not suggesting females are better. It is suggesting people are exposed to a significant imbalance in the female to male strong lead ratio. Again, to clarify, i am not suggesting there has to be and equal amount. Nor am i suggesting strong male leads should be sacrificed in the pursuit of improving representation. The already massive amounts of strong male leads will not be somehow damaged nor reduced in significance should more strong female leads be added to the roster. I'd agree that there is a definitely lack of well-written female leads in computer game plots. In fact, I don't recall any off hand, but then that may also be because gender is usually optional in a lot of games, and being male I usually play male. "The Summoner" had some decent female characters, I thought, but they were not leading characters, just companions or NPCs... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Exactly. Things are thrown in as "by the way..." and that really irks me. We would have no idea Exile taught younglings nor that Exile was to take on a padawan if it wasn't for Mical, and she didn't even recognize him!. i would say that is very significant since Exile leaving had a big impact on people in a personal way, which one would think a player should know about their own character. Exile is reduced to an oblivious and clueless character. With all these things thrown in in that fashion, it seems as if depth was attempted to be added as an afterthought. Actually, I don't think so, because the plot generally seems well thought out and compelling. It's just that it's told badly in these cases. There was a good reason for this in K1, because they made Revan amnesic, and so it was obvious why he could remember nothing of his past. In K2 they make the Exile, ahem, "not amnesic", but it doesn't matter because the player is still kept in the dark. The way to tell a story like that is to bring up all the points that will be important later early in the game, so that the player is at least given a clue as to what his own character has experienced. This can be done through flashback cut-scenes or conversation. For example, Kreia or Atton could have asked the Exile a lot of questions about his past, and the Exile could then choose to answer or dodge the question, but even if he dodged it, the player would still get to see what the answer was from the possible conversation paths and so have this information revealed to him at a point when it doesn't seem quite so significant. In K1 they actually did it more skillfully in the cutscene where Bastila and company "defeat" Revan, because it just looks like plot background thrown in there for dramatic effect, and it isn't until much later that you realize that it is really lost memories resurfacing for your main character. This would have been even easier in K2, since the context is obvious for the Exile's past, but instead it's just abandoned [Jediphile]Made as much sense to me the first time around when I was playing a male Exile... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Well, bless me for being an idiot. Never called you that. I just observed that I didn't find the plot to be imcomplete when playing the male Exile... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Since when does what Kreia has to say about anybody carry such a huge significance? Since the quote is actually from Kreia's predictions at the end of the game, where she is finally being honest with you, since there is no point in lying. And this is the LS prediction for Atton. The DS prediction is far worse... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]She states Visas cannot be trusted, Bao-Dur's thoughts are irrelevant just because she can't read them eventhough that is the first time Malachor V's impact is hinted at through his toughts, etc. Visas is loyal, Boa-Dur's thoughts are important, etc. And saying there is no love left in his heart is different than saying he loves her in an idealized way. According to Kreia, Atton doesn't love Exile at all. No, she says there is no love in his heart. She does not say there is no "love" in him at all. Which is why I say that Atton loves the female Exile on a idealized level. He admires her. But he cannot truly love her in the romantic sense. He puts her on a pedestal and worships her as an ideal. He would not accept her love, because it would lower her from that pedestal, and I don't think he could bear that. [Jediphile]Ah, but Atton has no choice but to see it that way if he is to live with himself, does he? I mean, if he's wrong, then what he has done is inexcusable, and though the Exile might - as Kreia puts it - forgive him for it, Atton would never be able to forgive himself. So he shifts the blame. It wasn't his fault - it was the jedi's fault. He lies to himself, but that is the only way he can bear to live, since he would be consumed by his own guilt if he didn't insist on keeping it at arms length like this. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]That adds to his complexity... And yeah, i do think he has a choice, and he opts to use it. i do not concur he places all the blame on the Jedi. What he did is inexcusable, and he knows it. He didn't say Revan made him torture Jedi, he says he enjoyed breaking them. And yes, he lies to himself, to everyone actually, but he also is honest with himself and others too, and these varrying forces being exerted on him as well as how he reacts to them are complex. i doubt very many people could look at Atton and know what he is thinking, nor could any given person know how he will respond to any given situation. He is a master at obscuring any sense of certainty people may feel they have in understanding him. That requires a multi-layered and difficult to understand thought process. He also states himself he hasn't known who he is for years. He is in constant psychological turmoil and he is trying to figure out who and what he wants to be. These are traits of complexity rather than simplicity. No, they're not. They are layers of self-loathing and self-delusion. Atton has many demons to struggle with, but that does not make him a complex person. Atton lies as much to himself as he does to others if not more so. He is in denial about his actions and his motives, because that is the only way he can tolerate himself. He is a miserable and pitiable creature. None of this makes him complex. He has a big and dark secret, and you cannot figure him out until you find that rather sizeable piece to the puzzle, but once you have it, you understand Atton's predicament. And you're supposed to. The only way Atton would be truly complex is if after learning his secret, he still had facets to him that defy explanation, and that is not the case. Nor is it supposed to be, since you're supposed to "get it" once he reveals his secret. Also, note his conversations with Kreia after revaeled his secret to the Exile. Kreia: "Why are you here? Atton: "Because I told him, told him everything." Kreia: "Ah. And now you are free?" Atton: "Yeah - so no more threats, no more of your "requests." You and me - we're done." Kreia: "Did you ever think I truly held you? You are more of a fool than I thought.What truly held you was you - and let me show you why. I once held the galaxy by the throat...And I know what lies buried within you. That you hide with your desperate thoughts, your guilt, your lusts....as you once held her by the throat, and let her die slowly. And your emotion at that point is what you fear. I can unlock that part of you anytime I wish. It is a simple thing, the human mind, once it feels something strongly, it becomes etched in the memory, the subconscious.Shall I show you? That part of you that hungered to kill Jedi, that took pleasure from it?Or perhaps you will continue to listen to my counsel and I shall ignore your pathetic attempts at freedom. Now leave me, murderer. I have nothing further to say to one such as you." Atton revealed everything, and Kreia's only remaining control of him is what powers she can threaten him with - to make him see those horrors of his past, that she knows he cannot bear to confront. Atton does not answer. He flees from her as he flees from the truth and his past. Note Kreia's comment about the subconscious, because that is fairly important. She knows that Atton is in denial, and that he lies to himself in order to live with himself. Because that is the only way he can bear to live. What Atton truly admires about the Exile - male or female - is that the Exile has killed more people (and more Jedi) than he ever did, and yet the Exile can seemingly bear to live with that weight. Atton follows because he wants to learn that trait himself, since he knows that he cannot bear to live with what he has done himself. It is not complicated. It's just repressed under layers upon layers of self-deception, because that is the only way Atton can live with his guilt. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i doubt those thoughts are solely in his sub-conscious. Never said it was solely in his subconscious, but some of it is. Kreia says so, and Atton confirms it through his silence and lack of objection. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]They are probably all that keeps him going sometimes. My point was, even with thinking these things, he still sees the other side of it. He is fully aware nothing can erase the karmic burden of either of their pasts, thus, i don't think he is looking for redemption in the Jedi sense, and especially not for redemption through her. He full well knows becoming LS and staying there will not make up for the consequences of either of their actions. He wants her to love him for who he is right now, eventhough he isn't sure of who he is nor what he is. But if she does, he will have difficulty accepting it because he has difficulty accepting himself. That isn't to say he would necessarily reject it, because through it, he could very well find the means to heal. And maybe, just maybe, he could help her to heal too. That he experiences so many inner conflicts and he thinks about them on many different levels and in many different ways makes him a complex person. Many interwoven parts interacting with eachother in different ways and all. To add to his complexity, Atton has a derserter complex to boot. No, he does not have a deserter complex, at least not in the sense that saying it suggests. Atton is not a coward when it comes to physical threat. It is not the danger of war or physical harm that he flees from. He is fleeing from himself, his guilt, and his past. He also flees from the truth. There is no complexity in the sense you suggest, since it all follows as a natural consequence from his experiences as a sith interrogator. And once you learn that, Atton can be understood. To call him complex because he has a big secret is applying a complexity to him that is not there. If it were, you should be able to understand only some of Atton's predicament from his revelation, and that is not the case, nor is it supposed to be. [Jediphile]In that case, what is your trouble with Atris' love for the male Exile [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i don't have a problem with it. What i do have a problem with is when it is given more weight than anyone elses. It is given more weight because it has heavier impact on the story. All the romance options with the companions (Atton (what little is there), Disciple, Handmaiden, and Visas) is not particularly relevant to the greater plot. You can explore it if you wish, but you don't have to. Atris' feelings for the Exile are fairly significant, however, especially in the male Exile's case. I cannot remember what was to trigger her becoming Darth Traya instead of Kreia, but I'm pretty sure her love for the Exile and Brianna's "betrayal" was probably part of it. Still, that's probably a non-issue, since it was not in the game and shouldn't be, since it didn't make sense for her to suddenly take over all of Kreia's goals. But Atris is still significant, because she is a trigger for Kreia to returning to the postition of Darth Traya. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] So Brianna has a father complex? i don't know. i'm sure it is possible, but i thought the similarity she saw between Exile and her father was the burden they carried. She is similar to her father with falling for a Jedi. But the most important thing to her about her father was to prove how she isn't a betrayer as he was. That is alot more about her than about Exile. She does, by her own words, betray Atris when she chooses to become a jedi. And she does say that she sees in the Exile something she has longed to understand all her life. That's one reason I don't like her so much as a romance option. It's like she is loving the shadow of her dead father that she sees in the Exile more than she loves the Exile himself. As Kreia puts it, she cannot help but love him, but I'm uncertain if it is truly romantic love. It's like she sees her father in the Exile, and the age difference might suggest that too. We don't know exactly how old these characters are, but Brianna seems to be about the same age as Mira, and Mira tells the male Exile that he is too old for her... That's why I like Visas better as a romance option. She seems more mature and unconflicted about her feelings. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] The point of contention with regards to Sion's feelings for Exile was they were not explained. The player has no context of why he cares for her. i said the same is true for Atris. The player has no clue why Atris cares for Exile. One certainly can assume a great many reasons why she might however, we simply do not know. We do not know if they were in close proximity to eachother when Exile was on Dantooine, we do not know if they share a Force bond, we don't even know if she loves him at all unless someone can enlighten us on that. But even if she does, it is not given context either, so given Sion actually speaks with female Exile about his feelings whereas Atris does not speak to male Exile of hers, one cannot dismiss the significance of Sion's impact as a potential romantic involvement. Whatever argument you can make about lack of knowledge about Atris' feelings for the Exile will hurt the female Exile's relationship to Atris far more, because we don't know what that is founded on either. It is far easier to accept that Atris may have secretly loved the male Exile without any details than it is to accept that Atris admired the female Exile without any details of what that was, because that makes no sense in the context of the greater plot of the KotOR games. Revan and Malak are consistently described as the most admired young jedi who left the order to fight the Mandalorian Wars. The Exile, however, was not. And to suddenly throw it in there with no explanation therefore hurts the story. Sure, you could argue that Atris admired the Exile for other reasons than Revan or Malak, but then that begs - no *demands* - the question of what that was. The story therefore becomes woefully incomplete without that informaton. Yet you're perfectly willing to accept that side of it, so that does not seem to me to judge the sides by the same conventions, as you demand that I do. Besides, even if we can rationalize things about the Exile past in Atris' case, the same is not true for Sion. Exile and Atris knew each other. Exile and Sion did not. That means that whatever relationship there is in the latter case *MUST* be there for us to see unfold in the game - there can be no unseen nuances or details, because you play the Exile from beginning to end with no interruptions in which such details might have taken place. The Exile and Sion only ever meet three times. First on Peragus, when they don't even interact. Then on Korriban, where they fight, but don't really talk. And finally on Malachor V, when the do talk, but still try to kill each other. There is no time for a relationship to build, and even there was, it still makes no sense. I mean: Sion: "Gee, I love you, but the plot still says I must kill you. No hard feelings, darling?" Exile: "No, of course not. That's fine, my dear..." It's just so idiotic that it defies belief and insults me as a player at the same time [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] And since weight is given to Atris' love by virtue of a possible lengthy time she and Exile knew eachother, than it is impossible to write off Mical's significance to Exile since his connection to her is actually revealed in-game. A padawan-Jedi relationship is a very significant one, from what i can tell. How is that not important and binding? Because even if you're right, the consequence of that observation is that if the female Exile had remained at the academy instead of running off to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, then she should be the last person in the universe to ever teach Mical. His feelings for her means that any emotions for her are doomed in any event, since Jedi may not have such feelings, especially not between master and padawan who have far stronger ties than other jedi do to each other. This would make far more sense if the Exile is male and there is no love in the picture. And so it again hurts the credibility of the plot in the case of the female Exile. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] We don't know that they are strangers any more than we know why Atris sees any of the Exile incarnations as a hero. And even if Sion develops feelings for Exile over the course of the game, that does not make it irrelevant. To have an antagonist develop an affinity for the protagonist is usually interesting, especially if the antagonist is aware s/he is going to be put into an unavoidable conflict with the protagonist. As i have said, Sion has potential. The potential I have pointed to above? Excuse me, but I need to find my bucket again... An antagonist having an affinity for the protagonist can be interesting, but only if it has relevance to the plot, and that is not the case here - it in no ways stops Sion from trying to continually kill the Exile. It has no impact or significance to the plot. The only difference is a few spoken lines about Sion's feelings, which are not very compelling, and which I do not find consistent to his character, in which case it hurts him in the plot. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]How is it there is a difference in how much respect and hero worship are feelings versus attraction? What i am hearing you say is they were at the academy together for a long time. That gave plenty of opportunity for Atris to fall for Exile. But them being together a long time at the academy is not enough reason for Atris to have come to respect and admire Exile. How can i possibly make a counter to an argument that has a bias as its basis? All i can do is say things should be kept on an equal ground in order for the debate to be able to amount to anything. i would argue if she had time to fall in love with him, she had time to come to respect Exile. You need an explanation for the relationship between Atris and the Exile. In the male Exile's case, love *is* that answer. In the female Exile's case we never know, because we're never told what the Exile did that made Atris admire her over Revan or Malak or any other jedi there. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] That wasn't the point though. The point was in an earlier post it was stated he turned to the dark side because of Padme. Please don't infer that I said that. You're ignoring that I said Anakin used Padme as a catalyst for turning to the dark side. I never said it was Padme's responsibility, and I don't think it's paritcularly polite to twist my words to suggest that I did so, and then proceeding to disagree with me on that basis. [Jediphile]When we first meet Visas, she is, in spite of her strengths, broken upon Nihilus' will. But I'm not sure if the Exile understands her, and even if the Exile does, you know I have my own speculations about why that is, which have to do with the ties between the Exile and Nihilus. Once Visas confronts the Exile, however, Nihilus' control over her is broken, and becomes far more determined and self-aware. And she becomes dedicated to the goal of destroying Nihilus, so that other worlds will not suffer the same fate as Katarr. Visas is willing to destroy herself in the pursuit of that goal, because in some ways she feels guilt over having survived when all others on Katarr died. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Yes. And that is why i thought she was easier for Exile to read and why Exile wouldn't be too worried about her betraying him. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me... I may see this side of Visas, but then I'm rationalizing after knowing the full story. I really was unsure all the way through playing the game, so I doubt the Exile was ever certain of this, because I sure wasn't. [Jediphile]Atris is strong-willed, but her convictions have been perverted as her true self has been slowly eroded under the strain the sith holocrons have subjected her to. Like Boromir, she tried to use the power of the enemy against the enemy and instead fell as a consequence of her presumption to be able to control it. The change is subtle, however, and Atris was too blind and proud to see the danger. However, what I like about the male Exile's plot is that he may inadvertently have caused her initial fall, when she was unsure of her feelings and began lying to herself in order to maintain her sense of self. In doing so she made herself proud and aloof - above such simple feelings as love. It's a lie, of course, and one that the sith holocrons then exploit to cause her fall. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Which happens to her even with female Exile. No, that doesn't add up for me, since that would suggest Atris only ever admired the Exile, and not Kavar, Vandar, Zhar, Kae, Zez-Kai Ell, Revan, or anyone else we can think of. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Admiration without explanation is not convincing enough. Love, however, is. [Jediphile]I agree that Bao-Dur is a strong and compelling character, but I would not call him complex. On the contrary, it is precisely because he tries so hard to make things simple that he can bear them and estimate them. Bao-Dur is an engineer. He likes for things to make sense and for himself to figure them out. If something confounds him, he keeps analyzing it until he gets it down to a level that he can deal with. This is true not just of his skills as an engineer, but also in how he approaches his inner demons and deal with them. It is the very quality that he refuses to let things become over-complicated that allows him to deal with them. That is how he has kept his sanity in spite of the guilt he bears. "Simple" is a good thing for Bao-Dur. It does not mean that he is dim-witted or stupid, just that he tends to uncomplicate things. It is his greatest strength that he is able to do this, since it allows him to move beyond the ghosts of his past. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Bao-Dur simplifying things, seeing things as he would a schematic so to speak, requires him to be able to see the big picture for him to simplify it. He does not only see bits and pieces, he sees the whole and how it all works, than he reduces it to a manageable size. An engineer has to consider not only the building itself, but also the soil, the weather conditions, the weight of what is being housed in the structure and well as that of those who enter it and the materials used to build it, etc. It also requires complexity of thought to be able to reduce the big into cohesive and workable small. As in math, to simplify one must first expand. So you basically accept my analysis and then just apply the exact opposite conclusion to it? Sorry, but it doesn't seem very plausible to suggest that Bao-Dur is a complex person because he simplifies things. I don't see at all how you can reach that conclusion. It seems more to me like you just throw it in there because you don't like the idea of Bao-Dur being an uncomplicated guy, but in doing so, I think you deny his greatest strength, which is his ability to bring things down to a level where he can deal with them. That ability is what makes him able to deal with his own dark past, while Atton struggles with a burden that is by comparison not so troubling as Bao-Dur's would seem to be. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Any romance would complicate things for him since those feelings cannot so easily be simplified, they cannot be controled, and alot of the time they are irrational. Which is precisely why I prefer no romance between the Exile and Bao-Dur. And that is true in the male Exile's case. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i would think though that Bao-Dur being attracted to his General would have the contradictory effects of both simplifying and complicating. It simplifies things greatly that it was she who ordered the activation of the MSG, which makes it all the more complicated at the same time. They are definitely in that mess together by virtue of their roles with regards to Malachor V. And just because them having feelings for eachother complicates things, doesn't mean it would be out of character for Bao-Dur. i would think someone who understands what he is going through would be a big relief. That does not seem to be a good argument for a female Exile, since Bao-Dur can find just the same understanding and relief from the male Exile - and without the complication of love in there, which probably makes the whole thing more honest and above board. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]It also allows him to find some measure of being able to forgive himself, as you described with Atton, if she sees enough worth in him to love him. I don't see why he would need her to love him in order to find forgiveness. In fact, if she did love him, he would then have to struggle with whether she truly forgave him for his acts or whether she just says so because she loves, takes pity on him, and wants him to not blame himself anymore. And as I've said before, that's why I prefer the male Exile here too. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i don't know if Exile isn't supposed to be repulsed by Bao-Dur though, but i don't mean it in the repulsed by his loving her way as we were discussing before, i mean in the what he represents way. That he can't forgive himself but forgives Exile so easily, that must be hard for Exile to accept. I don't think it's a question of forgiveness. In Bao-Dur's case, I think the past just is, and they have little choice but to live with it. That Bao-Dur doesn't blame the Exile is probably because he feels that he is himself more responsible for having created the MSG in the first place (sort of like Oppenheimer). He doesn't blame the Exile because the Exile did what he/she had to do, and Bao-Dur understands and accepts that. It was war, after all. The Exile, of course, sees it the other way, and does take responsibility, because he/she gave the order. Psychologically they both do the same thing - they accept the responsibility because it somehow gives them control over the situation, and that is easier to accept than that were not to blame, since that makes them apathetic and unable to alter the outcome, their choices void and meaningless. That is why they both understand each other on this level. However, I still think this trauma works better with attraction or love in the picture. That may even be why Bao-Dur was removed from being a romance option for the female Exile. It was the right decision too, I think, but the possibility of it is still there obscuring the matter. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i keep insisting on the fact we have no clue how Atris came to be attracted to male Exile nor why because it is fact. And that this very same aspect of the player not knowing why Sion cares for female Exile is enough to discount him, than that has to apply to Atris too. That was the point i was making. It is wrong to apply different standards under the same point. But apparently not where Atris' admiration for the female Exile is concerned? Be careful - standards can be double-edged swords... " [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Unless someone can bring to light Atris revealing her attraction for male Exile, it is an assumption it is there at all. Brianna revealed it, as I have already pointed out. If you refuse to accept that, then the discussion is pointless. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Mical does bring information about Exile one does not get from any other source as i have explained above. No, you have not explained it. You have postulated it. I have said before that he does not bring anything relevant to the story that you cannot learn from other sources, and you have not demonstrated anything to the contrary. Nor can you, since doing so would mean that the male Exile's story is incomplete and lacking, and I don't think you're about to suggest that. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i am not ignoring nor dismissing the fact Brianna's parents have ties to Revan and to Malahor V. Exile has a tie to Kae if she was a soldier under her/him, and if Kae was killed because of the MSG. Yusanis is tied to Revan and not Exile since he was the leader of the Echani and had his own command. We do not know if Yusanis and Exile were aquainted or not, though since it isn't mentioned, as with Kae, it is likely they were not aquainted. The original disagreement was that Brianna had no first-hand personal ties to Exile's past. She still doesn't. That her parents did means little since that would be like saying hypothetically if she knew Master Kavar that would link her and Exile. It wouldn't. That would only mean they know a person in common. For the life of me I cannot understand why Brianna must have direct relevance to the Exile's past to be considered a valid character. I really do not get why you insist that she must in order to have relevance. In fact, I think the opposite is true - if any and all characters in the game must - by whatever means - have direct relevance to the Exile's past, then the plot becomes convoluted and implausible. The Exile is not the center of the universe that everything resolves around, nor should he or she be. It is far more interesting that some of the characters have their own rich stories that add nuances to unfolding plot. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Brianna is personally tied to Atris, that is true. And Atris it tied to Exile. But until Brianna met Exile, other than Atris' obsession with him and all that is related to that, he meant nothing to her, nor she to him. And that was used to as a basis to contrast that to Mical who indeed had personal ties to Exile. It is a fair comparisson to make. Just as it is fair to make the comparisson that Brianna has a tie to Atris that Mical doesn't.Actually, he does. Substitute Mical with Atton. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] "So what?" indeed. i must admit i am at a loss as to why Brianna's connection to Exile through her parents is given so much weight when Exile's intended padawan whom she walked out on and irrevokably changed his life isn't. The master-padawan relationship is masively meaningful. And even if Exile supposing to be trained by Kavar isn't important to the plot, it is important to their relationship. No, Kavar's relationship with the Exile is immaterial. He is no more or less significant than, say, Zez-Kai Ell. So that is a non-issue. And as I've said before, the strong master-padawan relationship is precisely why the female Exile should never ever have been Mical's teacher. He loved her, and that is not premitted among the jedi, because it obscures the relationship and can lead to the dark side. The masters would never have allowed it. It's just another gaping plot-hole for poor Mical, though one that I can thankfully sidestep by simply playing a male Exile. [Hekate] IIRC, which i indeed may not be, Bastila had that super cool battle meditation which guaranteed her padawanship regardless of her lack of self-control and her haughtiness. i am not sure though whether she told Carth on Taris in KotOR her battle meditation hadn't manifested itself yet or hadn't fully manifested itself yet by the time Revan joined the Mandalorian Wars. Even if not, isn't really too relevant. Mical has never lied at any other point. The only thing that came remotely close was his omitting telling Exile who he is until he felt more comfortable with her (which is a rational thing to do). So why would he for no reason lie to Exile about it when he is opening up to her? There is nothing in game to indicate he is lying and claiming otherwise is blatant Brianna fanboyism (3 cheers for Brianna fanboyism... and thongs!!!) rather than rational debate. And how could anyone mistake such an important thing? Really... [Jediphile]Well, excuse me for pointing out gaping plot holes... I shall endeavour not to do such heinous acts in the future [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Was that *choked with emotion* sarcasm? Et tu Jediphile, et tu. A dog tends to bite when you repeatedly step on its tail... Besides, implying that someonebiased is trolling, since you cannot in good faith expect a constructive response. And it's poison to the discussion. If I see a plothole I will point it out, and if the other side then responds with accusations, then I will be... disappointed, since I do not think it was an unfair observation to make in the first place. [Jediphile]But it's interesting that you should bring up "blatant Brianna fanboyism". Given how much thought you give to the subject, clearly it would be completely unreasonable to suspect you of "blatant Mical fangirlism"... " Methinks thou doth protest too strongly... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Perhaps too strongly but certainly not unjustified. i was getting very frustrated by the time i wrote that and i probably shouldn't have, but you did use the fanboy argument against people who defended Revan in a different thread so i thought i'd throw it in as a little touch of irony and humour, especially since the parenthesis directly preceeded my comment of rational debate. That's why i added the thong reference too, for humour. One of us did not find it amusing... I geneally don't when people basically tells me I'm biased. Calling it a plothole that Mical claims nobody was left to teach him is not the same as claiming that "Oh my DS Revan pwn everyone ever in the whole galaxy", at least it isn't to me, and therefore inferring so does not seem like a very kind thing to do. Especially when I have already pointed to things in Brianna that made me prefer Visas over her as a romance option. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] How did Carth/Cede know the Sith were on their way to Telos? i assumed Mical would have informed his superiors in his reports. If that were true, Telos should have been doomed in the male Exile's story, since Mical is not there to warn them. Besides, who says they were warned at all? The whole assumption during that part of the game is that Citadel Station will fall if the Exile does not stop Nihilus, which does not suggest to me that there was any warning, or Carth/Cede would have called in more of the republic fleet to defend Telos. And even if we suspect that they were warned, I find it just as likely that Kreia leaked this information, since she wanted the Exile to come to Telos and defeat both Atris and Nihilus. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i completely disagree with that. Atton is the only one whose motives are difficult to fathom. Even he isn't certain what they are. *He* isn't certain himself, no. But the Exile is once she has heard his story. Kreia knew ever since the Telos Academy. Kreia manipulates Atton with impunity because he is easy for her to understand. That he isn't certain while both the Exile and Kreia are is precisely why he is simple. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]And a complicated history invariably leads to a complex persona. I disagree. First, it's not a complicated story, it's a troubled story. It does not have multiple facets or factors to it. I mean, Atton can tell it all in one conversation of a few minutes, so how "complicated" can it be? Second, a lengthy story does not necessarily make a person "complex". Sam and Frodo have a huge adventure, but Sam remains a fairly uncomplicated person in spite of it, whereas Frodo does not and falls because of it. Ignorance is bliss for Sam. Why can it not be for Atton as well? [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]i didn't take you saying he is simple as an idication you thought he is uninteligent. i took it as you said early: easy to understand. i still cannot see how Atton is simple. He is easy to understand for both the people who learns of his secret (Exile and Kreia). The Exile never asks further questions once Atton's story is revealed. That does suggest that he is easy to understand. But yes, you do need to known his secret before you can understand him. Besides, neither you or I seem to have trouble understanding him. And the only reason Atton "doesn't understand" is because he dare not to - that's what Kreia's threat after the secret comes out is all about - when she can no longer intimidate him with revealing his secret to the Exile, she instead threatens him with revealing the truth of his secret to himself. And Atton seems to accept that threat without even put up a fight. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i concede your sarcasm is mightier than mine and that it doesn't subvert from the discusion, other than when quoting dictionary definitions. That was ironically stating 'Atton isn't an idiot simpleton but you are'. I have never said nor meant that. [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] i explain it by saying Kreia herself is complex and she likes leaving uncertainty and self-doubt in people. i thought she wouldn't intentionally be redundent, which she would be if she called Atton "an idiot and an imbecile". That is why i thought 'fool' is significant as a term. Might it not be a significant term for a simpler reason? [Jediphile]And how long did that take her? It was not a true struggle, no. The spider had the fly in its web. There was no escape. Yet the spider was amused by the fly's futile attempts to resist and free it self. It played with the fly for its own dark amusement for a moment, revelling in the terror of its victim. But then the delight passed, and the spider got to work on its helpless victim, which then promptly succumbed... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Kreia says to him when she is forcing her way into his mind "you are a slippery one, and your thoughts are difficult even for one such as I to read". Still didn't stop her or even slow her down. Well, it slowed her down, but only as an act of amusement and to prove her superiority. It's like Kreia taking a step back saying, "You wish to fight back? Ha - give it your best. See if I care..." She does not slow down because of Atton's abilities, however, but only to increase his terror and demonstrate her own power and superiority to him. This is one side of Kreia that I really don't like. It's one thing that she is manipulative and opressive, but that she actually enjoys it is even worse. She was Darth Traya all along... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]When Exile asks Kreia why the Jedi Masters never mentioned her it was argued that Kreia had altered their minds with those techniques and made them forget about her entirely. She did a number on Atris since Atris could not remember her being in her own academy. She remembered Atton and Bao-Dur but not Kreia. Ah, yes. I forgot about Atris... I forgot because I don't count her among the jedi masters. Why? Because she does not meet with the other masters on Dantooine (in spite of having promised the LS Exile to do so, I might add). Besides, Kreia knew since Telos that Atris had fallen, so she did not consider her one of the masters that she wanted to convince of her convictions. Kreia already knows that Atris is too far gone to ever see her side of things, and so she does whatever she wants with her and uses her as a pawn in her little game of dejarik... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM]Kreia is in the party when they meet up with Master Kavar and he doesn't react to her presence, almost as if she wasn't even there. The same goes for Master Vrook if Kreia is in the party when meeting him. Obviously she was affecting their minds since on Dantooine when the Masters are gathered, they freak out at her presence. Kreia has a way of masking her presence from those around her. Atris is, for example, completely unaware of her until one of the handmaiden sisters mentions "the old woman". Besides, in those cases, Kreia's presence is optionable and so cannot be considered as evidence of her having been there. I know that sounds stupid, but the game seems to accept these things only if there is no option in who you may take with you. It's the same when the two twi'leks on Nar Shaddaa notice Atton going with you - and therefore clearly in the party - yet when you talk to them, they say they will say nothing if Atton is present, and yet they do, even though he standing right there next to them. Go figure... [Hekate,May 13 2006, 09:31 AM] Fair enough i suppose. But he does add stuff no one else does and that's what was being questioned so i pointed it out. I still don't see that he added anything of significance. But then he cannot, since that would otherwise be lost to the male Exile's side of things, and that cannot be.

http://team-gizka.org/wip.html <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Hekate]Subjective certainly, and arbitrally assigning worth to the female romance option characters and dismissing those same criteria entirely for the males. i'll use your own quotes to illustrate how you are discriminantly juxtaposing value of these criteria. Oh, come off it. I could make just the same accusation against you. Why is it somehow illegal for me to explain why I prefer the male Exile's story? It's a matter of opinion and not something that can be "proven" in any way. [Hekate]and how was Atris' love any different? She reacted the exact same way to all Exile incarnations. Male Exile does not find out how she came to care for him, nor what occured between them. It was just as convoluted, underexplained, and unsatisfactory as Sion's was. If an unexplained reason for loving the player character is reason enough to discount it than Atris must be discounted too. I don't agree with that. Atris actually lets it slip during your conversation with her in the Telos Academy, so even if lies beneath the surface most of the time, the Handmaiden pretty much says it out loud. Kreia comes close too. Atris: "There was much about that day that was difficult to forget - your words, your defiance - and when you stabbed your lightsaber into the center stone. I have kept it - so I would never forget.I have always kept it, as a reminder of what can happen when your passions dictate your actions.I have kept it, so I would never forget your arrogance or your insult to the Order.I suspected as much. You cared nothing for the trappings of the Jedi... and you cared nothing for the Order, even on that final day you came before us.So... you would fight me for it? You are not far removed from the monster who left the Order so long ago.Then you misunderstand its meaning while it is in my possession - and what it now represents. It is not yours. It is a symbol of something greater, which you no longer represent.Become a Jedi again? That is a thing far out of reach. But I am not unsympathetic to your feelings. Leaving the Order must have been difficult for you.Yet you gave the Council no other choice. You gave me no other choice.And you were ruled by hate and aggression! That is not the way of a Jedi!So your choice was to meet the aggression of the Mandalorians with more aggression? That is not the Jedi way!Every choice we make, whether we know it or not, sends echoes through the Force. It can awaken feelings, ignite passions, hate, anger, fear - where none existed before." Handmaiden: "She speaks of you often, in anger. But her movements, the motion of her hand, her eyes, do not share the anger of her words. There are only the signs of loss. It has been almost the count of ten years, yet the thought of you burns within her still. I believe that your leaving the Jedi Order may have hurt her more than she will ever admit. It is a difficult thing to speak of, to see Atris unable to confront such strong emotion within herself. You... you did not care for her, did you? Atris is beautiful. And wise. I have heard that Jedi sometimes renounce the code by loving another, and fall from the Order. And there are others who keep such unions secret.I see. So there are such unions?Pulling a... Bindo?Very... well. Are there such unions?That is what I have heard. I was not sure if it was something you had seen - or experienced.I see." It's right there, if we care to look for it. [Hekate]Where did this come from? Tell me your joking. Are you honestly suggesting KotORs would have been better with only a pre-determined sex as a lead? Not only does that limit player choice, that forces the in-game story line to be even more linear. i enjoyed played both male and female incarnations of Revan and Exile. i certainly would not want to have no choice. That is just sad The more you have established a character in your plot, the more you can do with that character. Since the Exile has to remain both genders in the overall plot, that means that there are some things that are not possible. For example, the majority of NPCs must remain oblivious to the Exile's gender, because it is undetermined what it is. Instead, all romance options must be very specific and plotted carefully to match the player's choice. [Hekate]Leia didn't get captured by them, no, no. Instead she got the incredibly empowering role of standing by and watching the Ewoks attempt to bar-b-que Luke & co after her little yelp that was supposed to be a protest: "But they're my friends". I'd add an exclamation mark, but that would be misleading. Luke uses his wit to get them out of the situation. No, he had the force, which is really a big advantage. And no, Leia wasn't captured. She saved Wicket's life and then decided to go with him. Not captured at all. She was free to leave whenever she wanted. It was when she began interfering with the captives that the Ewoks objected. [Hekate]Leia was oninously silent during the attempted roast (or maybe she just had a hankering to have some Han?) More humiliating would be Leia in the 'slave girl' outfit and chains being forced to let Jabba fondle her. Worse by a long shot. You seem to read a lot into that thong, but it is pretty humiliating for the guys to be captured like that too. But feel free to disagree all you want... [Hekate]That fleeting yet blissful moment wherein we agreed that KotOR II with a well writen story with a female as the lead is a good thing. You make it sound as if there can be "progress" only if I agree with you. In that case you're in for a disappointment. Besides agreeing that KotOR II was well written and that a female lead is good are two different things. I thought K2 was well written for the male Exile, but not the female Exile. I also think that a female lead need in no way need make a game "bad". I do not agree that having a female lead will by itself be a good thing, though - that's just misplaced sexism, since it suggests female leads are by definition somehow "better" better than male leads. [Hekate]So, in the light of the above paragraph, Mical's discoveries are significant pertaining to his character development, to the overall story, and to Exile since he explains his discoveries to her. Brianna's past is relevant to her character development and to a lesser degree to the overall plot. That would be how they have previously been compared. So to explain the reasoning behind my quote in red, i was refering specifically to how Mical brought plot relevance to Exile and to the player whereas Brianna could not by the virtue of her not being privy to such information. She knew of Atris' love for the Exile and asks him about it, thereby making it clear that he is aware of it. The only way that is not relevant to the overall plot is if Atris is not an important character, and that is not the case. Atris leaked the information about the meeting on Katarr to the Sith. Atris arranged for the Exile's return so that he/she would be a target for the Sith that would make them reveal themselves. Atris is the chief manipulator staging events early in the plot. There is no way she is not essential to the evolving plot. [Hekate]Using that argument though throws the whole Atris romance option out since all of it occurs without Exile knowing. Not so. Look at the quotes above, particular the Handmaiden's. [Hekate]i concur it is difficult to pretend the character doesn't know when the player does. Some of the Exile-free scenes added some info about Exile to the plzayer that wasn't a gapping plot hole without it, such as when Atton asks Kreia why Exile is so un-Jedi-like at Telos. But then the others, where plot relevant things Exile should know but get unceremoniously dumped onto the player with no reference base... yikes. The example that comes to mind is when Atton asks Kreia about Dxun's significance and suddenly we're told Exile fought there and it was the last stronghold of the Mandalorians. Hun? That and the introduction to Bao-Dur are among some of the worst parts of the game. It's okay that things are kept from me as a player, but not if they are things that my character clearly knows, while I do not. How the heck am I supposed to identify with *my* character if I'm not allowed to know him?!? [Hekate]Sure. But that isn't Mical's fault so why hold that against him and use that as a reason to disregard his worth as a character? Not saying it is, but it still hurts his significance as a character. Because what use it that he can figure these things out if they are not allowed to impact the plot? [Hekate]You don't hold it against Mira she ran around in the Jek'Jek'Tar in the spacesuit to go visit Visquis eventhough Exile ain't got a clue what is going on, do you? Exile is unconscious at the time. Can't get much more disengaged than that.. other than through death... Not a part of the main plot, and the Exile is presumed to find out about it just afterwards anyway. You can make just the same argument for Atton's fight with the twi'lek sisters, with T3's adventures in the warehouse, with the opening of the attempt to rescue the Exile from GOTO's yacht, and with the assault on Freedon Nadd's tomb on Dxun... We never hear anyone telling the Exile about these things, but it is presumed that he/she learns of them. [Hekate]Yes Mical does. He says there is a correlation in the worlds Revan targetted and all that technical stuff and says Revan was attempting to unite the galaxy and not conquer it. In fact, he's the fisrt person in the game to make that observation. Disciple: "Onderon, strangely enough, was unaffected by the Jedi Civil War. It's almost as if Revan didn't want to attack it.Its position and resources on the Rim make it a vital supply line and a guardpost against Outer Rim attacks." Not saying it with any certainly, just conjecture. It may be compelling, but even so, it is not stated as fact. And he certainly doesn't say that Revan saved the republic by that action. You can just as easily read into it that Revan just knew the strategic value of Onderon and chose to not attack it on that basis, so that he could use its position to his own ends later. In fact, that is probably precisely what Revan intended in the coming conflict with the true Sith. That Onderon was unharmed therefore becomes a side-effect of Revan's long-term goals, and because of any benevolent intentions on Revan's part. And why would he have such intentions anyway? He was the dark lord of the Sith at the time... [Hekate]The thread about whether Exile is a Force leech or a Force siphon. On one hand the Jedi Masters claim Exile is responsible for the Sith's leeching abilities or that they learned it from Exile, but on the other, they claim Exile is a leech therefore logic would dictate one cannot add to something when one is taking away from it. The question of how, if Exile is a wound in the Force, can Exile even use the Force... All those lovely discrepancies within the Masters' own words and also in Kreia's. With Mical, it was relaxingly clear for once. Made as much sense to me the first time around when I was playing a male Exile... [Hekate]That isn't taking in the whole picture though. He obviously thinks there is some chance since he took the risk of asking Bao-Dur about it. i also cannot see what magician's hat you pulled the notion of his loving her on an idealized and platonic level from. Kreia: "Atton is, as always, the fool. And the Force watches out for ones such as him, I feel. As it does for the old such as I. There is no love left in a heart such as that one. But he would die for you, yes." [Hekate]He has little love for Jedi, and he sees them as having their hands as stained in blood as the Sith. He also states Jedi are hypocrits, untrustworthy, and goes as far as saying they deserved what they got at Malachor V. That is pretty brutal, raw, and definitely not putting her on a pedestal of being an indomitable icon. He even confronts her with asking her how can she live with herself. He aims bellow the belt. i would hardly call that ideolizing her. Atton is a very complicated person. Ah, but Atton has no choice but to see it that way if he is to live with himself, does he? I mean, if he's wrong, then what he has done is inexcusable, and though the Exile might - as Kreia puts it - forgive him for it, Atton would never be able to forgive himself. So he shifts the blame. It wasn't his fault - it was the jedi's fault. He lies to himself, but that is the only way he can bear to live, since he would be consumed by his own guilt if he didn't insist on keeping it at arms length like this. [Hekate]i really think you're way off on the Eowyn-Aragorn comparisson there. But even the much revered Jediphile with Revan-like qualities can make mistakes from time to time Sure I can. This is not one of them, though What Atton sees in the female Exile is someone who has done something terrible (like himself), but who may atone and be redeemed in spite of her crimes. She is an ideal, because if she can be redeemed, then maybe - just maybe - he can too. But it's just a hope - he doesn't believe it himself. And I'm not sure how aware he is of it all himself. It may all well take place entirely on Atton's subconscious levels, given all the terrors of his past that he is constantly fleeing from. [Hekate]And what's this about him loving specifically because she is close to perfection? It's not as if one has a choice over whom one loves. In that case, what is your trouble with Atris' love for the male Exile [Hekate]He didn't see her and put all his bagage aside and come up with this non-sensible notion of her reflecting perfection. Brianna though, has had much time to hear Atris' thoughts on Exile, and she has had the opportunity to develop some preconceived notions about Exile based on Atris' tellings and a long time for her curiosity to grow. She knows Exile disturbs Atris, gets under her skin in a personal way that no one else can. And that she finds compelling. Like a moth to flame made irrisistable with her exisisting curiosity about and a longing for becoming a Jedi. To an extent. But what really draws Brianna to the male Exile, I think, is what she projects onto him of her lost father. [Hekate]you just wait... you'll get yours Promises, promises... "

So is Kreia. " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mostly you can depend on her to stick a knife in your back when you're not looking... We do believe you, but do not trust you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you're saying that after all my time on these boards, all our discussions together, you still don't entirely trust me?!? There is hope for you yet...

None is what you get. The game offers the possibility of a prestige class when you reach level 15, but since three are LS and the other three are DS, you can't take them unless you're within about 25% of mastery of either extreme. Bad grey jedi! There is no reward for indecision - so no prestige classes for you!

Best explanation so far

If you're having trouble with the campaign as it relates to the PCs, then I advice running a few simple adventures until you get a good impression of who the main characters (the PCs) are first and then contruct your campaign and plot accordingly - players can be such a valuable source of inspiration, and should never been overlooked as such, especially if they make observations what they really would not like to happen... That's an admirable goal, but don't forget that even the greatest and best epics of moral dilemma can be boiled to such a simple idea. Your problem isn't that you have a bad foundation, but that you demand to see all the details of it from the beginning, and that almost never happens. No, decide on what your underlying theme will be of the above. Once you have that, make a very basic "skeleton" of your plot. Really, as simple as it can get - the sort of plot that you can write on the back of a stamp and still have room for the list of characters is fine as a beginning. Once you have that, begin adding detail. Who are the main villains? Why are they villians? Why do they do what they do? What are their backstories and secrets? Then move onto your major helpful NPCs and other significant non-playable characters in your campaing. As the same questions for them, and then answer them. You don't have a real campaign until you've populated it with interesting characters. And make sure some of them have flaws. My players are usually fairly amused by the cranky librarians and grumpy clerks I put in my campaign. Find some well known characters in movies and steal from them. It doesn't matter if its original, since the characters will often have changed so much by the time you're done writing them that they will have become unrecognizable. For example, if you put Han Solo in there, but make him into a woman, the character already begins to become difficult to identify. Not necessarily. Han Solo was a smuggler who cared about nobody. Jack Sparrow was a similar kind of pirate captain. Yet they still made the moral choice in the end. Your space pirate can to, it's just a question of pushing him into the choice and then be willing to live with it, if he doesn't make the choice you'd prefer he do. For example, if he's a pirate, let him attack a ship and board it for loot. However, the ship is on a diplomatic mission to settle a terrible war between two worlds, and if they don't reach their destination, then millions of people will die. Will the pirate condemn them all to horrible deaths? There's no way to avoid that choice now... And that's always relevant to ask. But there are times when you just have to put them in the position and then wait and see what they do. If all else fails, you can always ask the players themselves. It really isn't a bad idea to level with the players and ask them what they want to do, you know. Apart from making them actually think about it, it also signals that their answers will have significiant impact on the campaign, which is often what players really want. Certainly, when I begin to lose that feeling as a player, that's when I begin to lose interest in the campaign, because it begins to look like my choices don't matter, and that is poison to any campaign.

So that's what's dripping out over the topic... Ewww....

Very compelling argument there

Why doesn't that surprise me... Do we also have two thursdays in a week now?