Jediphile

We're at the heart of our difference here, I think. The question is whether a fallen Revan can change his/her alignment again. I would say yes, but only if s/he ended up as LS in K1. This is assuming, of course, that you're playing a new character instead of Revan in K3, as both The Architect and I have suggested. In that case, I don't want a LS/DS choice for Revan, because Revan is not the character you're playing now - you already made the LS/DS choice back in K1 (and during the set-up of the game, where you chose his/her alignment). And since I'm playing a new character in K3, I don't get to choose Revan's alignment - I just get to choose whether I want to redeem LS Revan if I'm also LS or else to kill the fallen LS Revan because I don't want him to threaten my own rise to power, if I'm DS. I want to accept the choice that was made back in K1 (and confirmed at the beginning of the game), not change it yet again - if I wanted a redeemable Revan, then I should have set him/her to LS in the beginning. Nah, the true Sith may be sneaky, but they constantly fight among themselves. For Revan it would take little more than convincing some lesser sith lords that they can become more powerful by siding with him against the ruling lords, and there you go. Sure, they would plan to betray Revan at the first chance and seize power for themselves, but then this is just the sort of strategic game that Revan is really good at. If you look at the Great Hyperspace War (as seen in Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire), you'll note that their empire fell not because they were weaker than the republic, but precisely because they fought so much among themselves that they gave the republic every chance to retaliate. If they could have just stood together, they could have run over the republic in short order without trouble, even when Sadow's initial invasion was repulsed, but he and Kressh could never overcome their differences in the pursuit of a common goal, since they were both hellbent on ruling the empire, and so it fell to pieces, as it always will for the dark siders. They are certainly powerful, but it scarcely matters when there is no sense of trust or loyalty. Those are distant worlds of the old sith empire, and with it's decline, it's not surprising that some of the outlying worlds were "forgotten". Sure, Korriban may have been the homeworld of the Sith species, but they were never ranked high in the empire until they interbred with the dark jedi and some of their offspring began learning the force. After all, they did use Korriban just as a graveyard world. What they used Malachor for I'm not sure. Besides, they might also have abandoned those worlds simply because they were discovered by the republic. For the real core worlds of the old sith empire, you have to look at worlds like Ch'hodos, Rhelg, Khar Shian/Khar Delba, and particularly Thule and Ziost. We really need to see Ziost in K3 - it's only the throneworld of the ruling dark lord of the true sith...

Well, he did hold his own in a straight fight against Naga Sadow... He may have been an idiot, but he was not weak in the force IMHO.

There is little evidence to support that theory. Don't get me wrong, it does make sense, but we just don't know, and in any event, I do believe that falls under just the sort of temptations that jedi are trained to resist in the first place. I don't think so. First, I don't think that the fact that the Exile activated the MSG has as much significance as you seem to think, and secondly, we already know that all the other jedi at Malachor V either died or fell to the dark side, so the events certainly had impact on them as well. What? Where do you get that from?? The masters saw a lot of risks down the road, and as Bastila tells us in K1, the masters would have intervened at some point, except Revan forced the issue and split the order. Given the fallout of the Mandalorian Wars, the masters' fears seem more than justified. I do agree that their choice is debatable, though. As for Malachor, what was there to explore? The planet was pretty much destroyed at the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and the masters had no idea that the Trayus academy was hidden there. Indeed, only Revan (and obviously Kreia) seems to have been aware of it. He did defy the jedi order by joining Revan, and as you point out yourself, he was the one to activate the MSG. He had already committed two serious crimes in their opinion. Who could? Not knowing about Malachor and the Sith working from the shadows, it's not surprising that they were taken by surprise. I think that's mostly down to bad storytelling. At least I think so for Kavar and, especially, Zez-Kai Ell, who seem quite understanding of the Exile's position in K2 when you meet them individually (particularly Zez-Kai Ell). Still, given the danger the Exile represented to the force, I do understand their motives. I don't agree with their decision, but I do understand their reasons. I agree more with you here. It's too bad that Zez-Kai Ell's motives were just written out of the final meeting with the masters on Dantooine, because Zez-Kai Ell has some good points: "Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead. Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside. And now, that decision has come back to us, and may carry with it, our destruction. Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council."

But he got his ass kicked by Holy grails black knight! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nah, it was merely a flesh wound...

Kreia is manipulative and full of deceit, and lots of people don't like that. In fact, most of us probably don't like her for that reason. I know I don't. But the distinction is that while I don't much like her, I do realise that she a wonderfully written character. She also has slightly redeeming in quality in her hatred of the force being based on her own disgust at how it "controls" or "dominates" people. This does not not excuse what she does, but I do appreciate and acknowledge that she doesn't do just because she's an evil old hag. I feel about Kreia a bit like I do about Garak on Star Trek: DS9 - I love the characterization and what is written, but I don't like the character and would NEVER turn my back on him...

Luke Skywalker Anakin/Vader Darth Plagueis? Yoda Marka Ragnos Revan Mace Windu Naga Sadow Palpatine/Sidious Obi-Wan The Exile Kyp Durron Ludo Kressh Dooku Some close calls, but that would be the immediate list. I leave Leia and Mara Jade out, since they would be there only after a host of powerful jedi, and that would make for a long list indeed.

That's where I disagree, because if Revan really needed to fight the true Sith, then he would have needed the republic unharmed and prepared for war. But instead he spent his own resources of manpower and ships to attack and attempt to conquer the republic, pushing both sides (republic and his own sith forces) to exhaustion. That doesn't suggest to me that he was trying to save the republic, since it will be weaker for it, as it does that he just wanted to conquer it for power. Besides, Revan doesn't remember about the true Sith until a year after K1. It's true that Revan did not attack some targets, notably Onderon, due to it's strategic importance on the outskirts of the republic, which suggests he needed it as a base or bastion against the true Sith, but that can as easily mean "I need that world to protect my empire later" as it can "we need it to protect the republic from the true Sith". I think Revan knew about the Sith at the end of the Mandalorian Wars and converted the jedi to sith at Malachor V to create an army he could use against the true Sith. But I also think that Revan was seduced by the dark side's promise of power some time after that, and that this why he confitnued to fight the republc so hard.

Yes, that's exactly why ESB is the best of them all. The original movie is a very classic adventure-film with all the highs and lows as well as all the classic archetypes in there (the young and clueless hero with a dream, the mysterious old helper, the reluctant hero, the damsel-in-distress, the evil "black knight", etc., etc.). It was high fantasy set in space with all the climaxes it needed. But ESB went further. The problem with high fantasy is frequently the problem of "where do we go from here?". Usually they end with every problem being solved and all the bad guys being dead or defeated. But what happens the next day? Where the heroes go after that? ESB told precisely that and took the characters seriously beyond their initial high fantasy archetype. When Han and Leia become involved, they become true characters beyond their archetypes, because this is what people do in real life. When Luke - the great and pure hero - is forced to humble himself to learn from Yoda and later learns of his heritage, he grows so far beyond the simple "peasant hero" he was in the previous movie that it is just staggering - I still remember the shock it was when Vader cut his hand off and then told him he was his father. You can say what you want - I'll maintain that if someone asks which scene most readily comes to mind if someone mentions Star Wars, then it will be "No, Luke - I am your father!!" and no other! Deny it all you want - I won't believe you!

That is correct. I love lightsaber battles, just like I do battles in space (ships fighting). Not only was the battle good but the music for it was perfect. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed. That lightsaber battle was the wildest thing I ever saw, both for the actual fights (Nick Gillard ) and the excellent must (Williams ). It was incredible that they could take it all up a notch in RotS after that. And it would be an understatement to saw that I'm impressed by John Williams' ability to make Star Wars grow musically even then - he's been in this saga for so long, made so many classic themes for it, and he somehow manages to mix the old and known with new themes, that are just as classic. "The Battle of the Heroes" is wonderful music in RotS, as is the music when Anakin ponders his options...

Isard should be on this list. I think I'd vote for her...

Very nice Don't mistake me for one of the die-hard Revan fanboys, though. I certainly don't think Revan saw the whole thing coming all along, but I do think he did by the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and the reason for that is Malachor V. That is where Kreia suggests Revan learned of the true Sith, and that is the place he chose to destroy the Mandalorians and, at the same time, convert the jedi. It seems to fit rather well, I think...

Yes. IF DS Revan is not going to be redeemable, then Carth serves no purpose in the plot and can be safely ignored. If Revan is LS, however, Carth becomes important, and essential if Revan is also female. I think the only one I did kill off (or rather not use) was Juhani from K1. Not many seem to any particular affection for her (or they at least like other characters more), and I don't really either. I don't hate her - she's an okay character to me - but I do find most of the others more interesting. So I just assumed that she, too, had been killed on Kataar (assuming LS Revan). But yes, the rest of them where in there to some extent, at least in the LS Revan/LS Exile version. Actually, it was an entire year after. Revan has just had four years, but then he fought - and won - the Mandalorian Wars in less... (oh, and thanks) Yes, it would seem odd that Revan was trained by the jedi order, if he was a true Sith. Still, it could be the case, if there is a really good explanation, but I'd prefer not to. It seems too much like retconning Revan, and we already saw some of that. I didn't mind in K2, since it was done tastefully and without betraying the character, but I'd prefer it didn't go any further than that. Revan coming from a world (Deralia?) living in the shadow of the proximity of the true Sith is a valid option, though.

And that is precisely why it is a clich

Sort of. The Exile convices Sion to let go of his life, to give up the will to live. Which the game also seems to imply is the only way to kill him. "This battle was never about the flesh, it was about belief." In essence yes the Exile did kill Sion, but not with her lightsaber. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "The pen is mightier than the sword" :D Or in this case the voice...

There isn't any evidence of him dieing on M4-78... <_< <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, there isn't, and I'm not saying he was supposed to, just that I read it somewhere and wondered about it.

No, he didn't. He just mentioned it before the list, which is from Wookieepedia and seems not to have been updated yet. Which is an excellent reason.

I read somewhere that Bao-Dur was supposed to die on M4-78... It might have been on Wikipedia, but I'm not sure. And in any event, it can be no more than an evil rumor. Still wondering, though...

Basically you have to build influence with them and keep talking to them, and eventually you'll get a chance to take them as apprentices. The conditions differ a lot, though. Some you just need to build enough influence with and the option will show up no problem. In other cases it is tied to specific quests on specific worlds. Or it could be tied to your own experience level. I'm not going to be more specific than that, since it would spoil the game completely, but if you insist on spoiling your game completely, here is the link to a complete and totally spoiling Influence Guide (it's written for Xbox, but it's all good on pc too - I have a pc, and this guide has never led me astray). For more complete spoilers, look here.

She said it, but the question is what she meant by it. Kreia admires the Exile's ability to deny the will of the force. That makes him unique by any standard, but it does not mean that he's a powerful force-user. Indeed, Vandar described him as an average force-user to Vrook in the flawed holographic projection on Dantooine... Bah - that's just munchkin'ish power-nonsense. The Exile could go up to level 50 in K2. That's not normally allowed in d20 rules, so there is no basis for claiming that another character with similar experience couldn't do exactly the same. Indeed, the Exile's companions would seem to suggest otherwise. According to canon, the Exile didn't have Force Crush - he was LS. The Exile killed Sion, so clearly he wasn't immortal. As for Kreia, she *wanted* the Exile to kill her, which I would say does sort of reduce the achievement a bit... Revan didn't need to go off on a power-tantrum to kill all his enemies - it was just redundant. And Revan has had six years to grow stronger in since we last saw him by the end of K2, while the Exile has had only one measely year in which to climb to power from level 1. Who is likely to be the most powerful... " You see to place a lot of importance on what Kreia says, so maybe we should consider this as well: Kreia: "Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."

That's fine, but if I'm playing the Exile, then I must know it as a player, and I didn't. That makes it next to impossible to identify with *my* character. Agreed, but so much of the Exile's backstory becomes vital during the game, and since I'm playing him, I shouldn't have to find out about it when Kreia throws Atton a few bits of information on the subject or similar. If the Exile is my character, that's great, but then I *have* to know him - that's my right as a player! If I can't do that, then let me play someone else. Otherwise it's just false to say that he's not amnesic. He may not, but it hardly matters... I think they've both seen terrible things, but I actually consider LS Revan to be the most troubled character, since he has to live with the knowledge of having killed or corrupted so many jedi and caused so much death... I assume that's why he left to fight the true Sith alone - to atone for all the horrible things he's done.

Because neither Kreia nor the jedi masters thought so, and if anyone should know, it should be they. No, I don't agree with that, because that sounds like what happened to the Exile was an instinctual reaction that anyone else would have made under the same circumstances, and we know that is not the case, since the Exile alone among all the jedi at Malachor V did not either die or fall to the dark side. I'm not saying the Exile made a conscious decision, but I don't think it was an entirely instinctual reaction either. The way I see it, the jedi (and sith) are used to "give their will over to the force", since that is how they can react so quickly - it is not conscious when they deflect lightsaber or blaster shots. As Obi-Wan explains to Luke: Obi-Wan: "A Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him." Luke: "You mean it controls your actions?" Obi-Wan: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands." They way I see it, the jedi (or sith) sort of decides beforehand what he will do, or rather have the force do, when certain conditions arise. In a way, it's sort of like he makes a simple computer-program, which the force then follows, when the preset conditions for its activation are met. In that sense, the jedi do make a choice, it is just not one that is consciously made during the actual situation. In this context Kreia's comments become interesting. Kreia: "But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force." Now, from that it seems clear to me that the Exile did not merely have an instinctual reaction. His choice was unique, but the big question is whether that choice is open to all jedi, or whether he was also unique in his ability to actually cut himself off from the force. That is unanswered, and that may be a contributing factor to what the masters fear. I don't think so. If that were the case, then the masters really didn't have to care about it. Besides, the Exile does use force powers. And we should also remember that other jedi have been cut off from the force without the ability to just sort of "turn it on" again as the Exile did. Ulic Qel-Droma spent a decade trying to rediscover his lost connection to the force and never succeeded. I don't agree entirely with the masters' decision either, but I think you're wrong about their motives. You seem to be overlooking the connection between the Exile and the "new Sith" (=Nihilus), which is the major concern of the masters. "There was a gathering of Jedi on the planet - when we realized that something was attacking us, we resolved to meet secretly to attempt to find this threat.Then... Katarr was no more.When we felt Katarr die, there is something we felt, something we'd felt once before. An echo in the Force.We'd felt it before when you stood before us. Whatever this threat, whatever this hunger is, it is something tied to you, something you have experienced directly. This echo travels in the places where death has walked, where planets have died. Massacres fuel its power, the death of life fuels it." "The Sith are a threat, it is true. But the threat they present... it is tied to you in some way. The echo we have felt on the worlds we have walked - we have encountered it only once before, when you stood before us at your trial.We believe that somehow, you are creating this - or that the Sith have learned this technique from you." This last bit is fairly important, because it points very directly to a connection between the Exile and the threat of the Sith that the masters fear so much. That threat is Nihilus, but then the masters don't know that. What I find interesting is that they say quite bluntly that somehow the Exile is responsible for creating this danger, meaning Nihilus. Kreia never disputes that, and naturally no one else mentions it, since they have no knowledge of it. But note what Kreia said earlier about Nihilus and his power. Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." Now, is it just me or this *EXACTLY* what the Exile himself experienced at Malachor V? We know that Nihilus was born from the events of Malachor V from the description of his mask... "You have taken this trophy from the remains of Darth Nihilus - it is the last surviving piece of the beast who died and was reborn in the shattered world of Malachor V. By taking it from him, you have gained a stronger tie to the Force." That is a lot of conveniently coinciding factors to me, and suggests that the masters were absolutely right to suspect a connection between the Exile and "this new Sith threat" (which was Nihilus).

pity qui gon saved him, weak jedi and their helping of the weak imagine that as a kotor scenario: [Help Jar Jar] [Run into the forrest, letting Jar Jar get run over] <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Obi wasn't happy to Qui-Gon after that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Trust me - yes he was!

It's not that he can't be in league with Jabba, but I think Boba is so tough a bounty hunter than he has better things to do just hang around with Jabba's posse just waiting for a job - he should be out there wiping the floor with other bounties instead. I mean, Fett is the hardest, toughest, and meanest bounty hunter around (or should be), so his services should be in high demand. He has much better things to do than hanging around Jabba's posse or hunting for a jedi who has been lost for two decades and is presumed dead. There are plenty of deadbeats he should be chasing down instead. I don't think Boba's presence in the scene is a major problem, but it doesn't exactly make much sense either...

I actually found the original song to be even worse, so I favor the lesser of two evils... No, that was already in the special edition from 1996