Jediphile

Given that Myrkr was the homeworld of the Neti, and there was a Neti jedi master (Odd Bnar, though he was from the neti colony on Ryyk) during the Sith War (against Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma), it seems unlikely that the knowledge of the Ysalamiri and their powers would be unknown to the jedi order. The jedi could have forgotten about the Ysalamiri specifically after the Sith War and then the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil War, where many jedi and much of their lore was lost, but they certainly have had access to the knowledge and probably studied its effects on the force, I'd say. Yes. What I really didn't like about that was how it was completely reversal of Zez-Kai Ell's position, as he describes it on Nar Shaddaa. He seemed by far the most likable of the masters in K2 (except perhaps for the lost Master Vash...) Yes, that's a good explanation. I hate the midi-cholorians, but that does make sense

Coruscant at the end of RotJ was actually added to the theatrical remake from 1996. But Naboo and Hayden Christensen (along with Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine in ESB and replacement of Jeremy Bullock's original voice for Boba Fett) were not added until the DVD release (from 2004), as you correctly point out. I agree that they messed up a bit regarding Obi-Wan's age. They should either have made him a little older in the prequels, or else they should have let the prequels begin further back in time. Anakin sure looking more than his early forties to me when Sebastian Shaw played him at the end of RotJ. Though I am definitely "old school" (and saw the original movie in the cinema), I generally don't mind the changes that have been made and feel that many of them enhance the movies more than anything. Lots of people hate the Solo and Jabba scene in ANH, but I've actually been waiting to see it since I saw the scene recreated in the original comic book version of ANH when the movie came out (though Jabba looked *quite* different back then...) There is one particular change that I find to be unforgivable, though! It's the changed Greedo scene, where Greedo now suddenly shoots before Han does. Taking aside the ludicrous notion of just how Greedo was able to miss at point-blank range, the change is inexcusable because it changes Han Solo's character. The whole scene was defining for Solo, depicting him as a hardened scoundrel who wouldn't refrain from cold-blooded acts when it was necessary for his survival. That's the definition of Han Solo. Whatever Lucas decides to change him into later, that's where he began. That's where he had to begin. But with this change, Han is reduced in his conviction and resolve, because he is now far more guided by his ethics and moral compass, even if it's going to get him killed. And the whole point was to demonstrate, that Han Solo wouldn't shy back from hard choices due to moral scrouples if the need arose. How else would he survive in the harsh world of a smuggler? There is no answer to that now... :angry:

Well, let's listen to the wisdom (!) of HK-47 of all people... HK-47: "That is why Revan felt that Malachor V was so important. It was intended to be a conversion tool. Assessment: When faced with a continuous series of hard-fought battles, I detected a significant statistical increase in Jedi following Revan over the Jedi Code - a compromise in principles brought about by battlefield conditions.The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army. But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion. Surely the loss of your troops and the Jedi who served under you at Malachor V, had a detrimental effect upon you and your ties to the Force - and I suspect, your desire to be around others ever again." HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic." From these comments it seems clear that Revan purposefully manipulated events to suit his/her plans and knew exactly what the consequences would be for the jedi - s/he knew what the will of the force would be. Still, that doesn't rule out your own explanation, but bear in mind what Kreia tells the LS Exile after the meeting with the masters. Kriea: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid." Here it becomes clear, at least to me, that the Exile did walk away from the "destiny" that was thrust upon him/her by the force, especially when you compare it to something Kreia says at the end of the game. Kreia: "In times past and in times future, there are Jedi who will stop listening to the Force, those that will try to forget it, but maintain unconscious ties. And those, as in the past just as I, who have had the force stripped from them.But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force." And a little later... Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it." Well, the force isn't exactly the same as lifeforce per se, it seems, though they seem to be connected. The easiest way to understand that is by listening to Qui-Gon's explanation of the midi-cholorians. Note that he tells Anakin that the jedi would have no knowledge of the force without them, not that all life would cease to exist. Now, I hate that explanation myself, but either way, we know that the force and life are not the same, because if it were, then the ability of the Ysalamiri (from Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy novels) to "push back the force" would be deadly, and clearly it is not. Luke doesn't die when they push the force back, he just loses his connection to the force for a while. Now, whether that means Kreia can kill the force without destroying all life I'm not sure, but clearly they are not exactly the same. It might just as well be that the Ysalamiri can just make the force "dormant" somehow. Kreia manipulates people as always, yes. Should the Exile have noticed the lost connection? Perhaps, but the Exile was very traumatized at the time, and there is a lot the character has somehow "forgotten". I think there is even more that remains unrevealed so far. The Exile is, according to the recording we see of Vandar and Vrook on Dantooine, actually a mediocre jedi. But s/he has a powerful gift for creating force bonds. So though the direct connection to the force was cut, those bonds were at lot more powerful. Besides, the Exile wasn't consciously aware of what had happened. I think the important thing to notice here is that he has the ability (unlike other jedi/sith it seems), yet lacks any conscious control over it...

No, it's not, but then I don't think that's what The Architect is suggesting (judging from my previous talks with him). It seems to be that he is merely suggesting that Revan be DS for whatever reason, because that makes writing K3 much easier. In my own plot suggestion, there was another reason. Because you do meet Revan in K2 (after a fashion). And you meet yourself (the Exile)! It was in the cave on Korriban, where you have visions. First you had two visions of the past (Malak recruiting jedi at the academy and the Exile leading troops against the Mandalorians on Dxun). Then you had an encounter from the present (Kreia being confronted by several of your other companions). And finally you meet Revan and yourself. Isn't that the future? And note that if you force sight at that point, you can see that both Revan and the Exile have DS mastery. Revan's already been at it for four years when K2 begins. Add however long K3 takes place after K2 to that... Several things here... Palpatine was very subtle, longsighted, and patient. Revan is far more hands-on, decisive, and "cut to the chase"... Also, there is a big difference between subveriting the rule of the republic, where jedi and others are constantly looking for corruption in the system, and doing it among the sith, where powergames and corrupting is expected as a fact of life Actually I think that comment was just put in K2 to signal that the Exile will have followed in K3 no matter if he turned LS or DS... That's what I think Revan is planning, yes. If DS he does it for the power. If LS he does it save the republic. It depends. In my own plot speculation, I made the third person the one who either orchestrates Revan's redemption or else has to kill him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But how would that person be significant in a personal way to either Revan or the story? I think that is what JohnZ117 is driving at. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't give that character a personal way to Revan. I did, however, give that person a special empathic ability to sense the motivations of others, so that s/he could determine Revan's (and Exile's) hidden feelings. And I brought Bastila in as a major companion fairly early in my plot, so that Revan would have a personal connection to her, and she would have one to the new character.

That's not the impression I get from reading the dialog.tlk file...

Yes, if you make Anakin about five years older and cut any and all gungans from the movie completely, then Ep. I doesn't seem so bad anymore. I'd have replaced Naboo with Alderaan as well... The biggest problem with the actual plot is that it's just a bit boring. A big part of the problem is that you just don't buy sweet little Ani in Ep. I as the boy who will be Darth Vader one day... And Hayden Christensen's acting is just awful I got the distinct impression that he had already fallen by the time Ep. II began, and I hadn't been allowed to see it. He just hadn't fallen very far yet. Yes, but I never found the plots to be that problematic. It's the other things that surround the plot that was annoying to me. Why, oh why, did we have to have JarJar in there? :angry: The Exile has the power to the deny the will of the force. He was destined by the will of the force to fall to the dark side at the battle of Malachor V. But he didn't. He resisted that will, and he did so by severing himself completely from the force. That's why he lost his contact to it, not because (as he mistakenly thinks) the masters cut him off from the force, but because he did so himself. We never see him regain his ties during the game. He has access to the force only through the force bonds he can form with others and then siphon to himself through that connection - his own connection is lost and remains so throughout K2 (or so it seems). That's his similarity to Nihilus - they can both drain force from other force sensitives, and particularly jedi of course. Would she? I don't know, and I'm not sure Kreia does either. But I do agree that she hates the force enough to take that risk. That is probably precisely what she intended with Nihilus, but he rebelled against her. And Nihilus does not seem to have the same sort of control over his power as the Exile does. Note how Kreia describes Nihilus - and especially his ability to devour worlds - to the Exile.... Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." {Quietly}"Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts." {Chiding}"Power? Do you think so?{Shakes head}You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls." He is a bit of both, but probably more the former, if you ask me. Note that if the Exile is DS, he still cannot simply kill the masters by draining them (until after they're dead, at least...) As for Kreia's motives, she's a vengeful old bat! She may have cast down the mantle of the Sith herself at one point, but that doesn't mean she likes being thrown out by her apprentices. She doesn't like the jedi, but she still wants them to accept the truth of her own teachings. Note that it's only when they refuse to see the truth she brings them that she steps in to bring them down, though she could clearly have killed them at any point. Much as she hates the jedi code, she clearly respects the jedi more than the sith in some ways, because she at least has some hope that the jedi might see her side of things, whereas Nihilus and Sion are clearly just to be punished for their unbecoming insolence...

Where did this forum come from? And why was the KotOR3 topic moved here? Surely K3 is as much "Computer and Console" as Oblivion, CoC, or any other computer game we can think of...

Don't forget that the sith have been hunting the jedi from the shadows, so the masters know nothing about who these sith are. The most they know is that they attacked Katarr and destroyed all life there (but one). Naturally this was Nihilus, but the masters don't know that - they only know that the power that destroyed Katarr was somehow related to the Exile, since they felt the same thing in the force when they judged him/her. That's the connection between the exile and the "Sith" - a connection between the exile and Nihilus, which still hasn't been fully revealed, and which I suspect may be unveiled in K3. Kreia doesn't equal the force with all life. Note how she respects the skills of common people and berate the jedi (when she speaks with Atton while the Exile is sleeping on Citadel Station over Telos) for being helpless without the force. Is she correct? We don't know, but she hates the force enough to want to kill it even it has consequences for all life. Personally, I think her relation with the Sith was in no small part due to Nihilus' ability to wound the force, which Kreia probably also intended to control. When Nihilus and Sion then cast her out, she instead found the only other person who could wound the force - the Exile - and then used him both to harm the force and to take revenge on her enemies (the jedi masters and her defiant sith apprentices).

"Be mindful of the living force, young padawan" "There is no civility, only politics." "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." "Mmm. Lost a planet, Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing. How embarrassing..." "Don't forget, she's a politician, and they're *not* to be trusted." "The day we stop believing democracy can work is the day we lose it." "I love democracy... I love the republic..." "Twice the pride, double the fall." "What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?" "Hmm. To a dark place this line of thought will take us. Great care we must take." "Not to worry. We're still flying half a ship..." "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." "At an end your rule is. And not short enough it was. If so powerful you are, why leave? " "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." "So this is how liberty dies - with thunderous applause..." "Into exile I must go. Failed, I have..." "You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy." "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Sorry, but no. Popular though it may be to slash the prequels, they are not quite that useless IMHO.

Why would DS Revan fight for years to become the greatest and most powerful Sith of all time and then suddenly decide to kill himself?!?

I think you're forgotting another famous Star Wars quote by another famous jedi master: "Many of the truths that we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view..." In short, don't forget that Kreia has a very different perspective on things, and she *hates* the force with a vengeance! So it's quite natural that she is not going to be spouting the same pro-force "propaganda" that Yoda or Obi-Wan do. That does not mean that the devs are making fun of Lucas' ideas, however. It just means that they are expanding upon them, exploring the depths of the force, which is more than relevant in a game about jedi knights. And Kreia is a different character, because while she is as sly and manipulative as Palpatine, she has an entirely different goal. Palpatine/Sidious merely wanted to take over power in the galaxy, rule the republic, and destroy the jedi - your basic power-hungry megalomaniac and evil overlord. Kreia, however, is at war with god just as Ahab was - note her comments about how she hates the will of the force that seems to dictate a destiny for everyone - and she wants to destroy the force as a consequence, even at the cost of her own life (which she does sacrifice at the end, because the exile can harm the force itself where she cannot). Palpatine would *never* have done that!

Could you please tell me more details about this? I played as a female 3 times and nothing like this ever came up... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well...they didn't exactly get into a "dogfight" (which isn't a fight between two males but rather a fight in the air). There was simply friction between the two. Atton would constantly shove Disciple off, etc. They were supposed to get into an actual fight at Malachor but I don't want to have to go into what happened there... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They were... and they will once the Restoration Project is finished... spoiler!

We did get the Goto and remote cutscene. It's the ensuing scenes with HK-47 and the HK-50/HK-51 units that are missing.

It depends. In my own plot speculation, I made the third person the one who either orchestrates Revan's redemption or else has to kill him.

Only if you play LS

I don't know... I always thought that was a bit fishy... I mean, it's *supposedly* the HK-50 unit that controls that remote, yet where did the HK-50s come from? Telos. And who do we just *happen* to run into on Telos as well? Bao-Dur... Something seems all too convenient there...

3) Kotor 2 was incomplete " 4) Peragus sucks! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. It might have been if Bioware hadn't done the same basic plot in BG before. And as a plot twist, it's scarcely original. I was actually slightly disappointed, because it impressed me that they put so much background about Revan in there. Then I learned I was Revan, and it was just "oh well - so much for building a rich background rooted in history..." <_< 2. K1 robes K2 robes merely 3. As certainly as water being, 2+2=4, and me checking to see if the aforementioned is true if told so by Kreia... 4. Such a hard term... though fitting

So do I, though my hopes are not high... Still, I have to hand it to the writers of the show - the scene between William Devane (Heller) and Gregory Itzin (Logan) was great. Here you have two greatly underrated character-actors facing off in an atmosphere so thick you could cut it with a knife. It's nice to see they can give screentime to that, since they could never have put Jack in such a scene, as he just isn't the right sort of character for it - he's an agent, not a politician. Besides, I'm not quite sure Kiefer could have pulled that off as well as Devane and Itzin

That gives me flashbacks to Ghostbusters: Sigourney Weaver: "I want you inside me!" Bill Murray: "I can't. It sounds like there are at least two people in there already - it might be crowded..." Well, if we want female Sith, we need look no further than Lady Lumiya, who was never possessed by some ancient spirit or some such (that we know of...). And she is a much greater enemy of Luke Skywalker than Tavion could ever be.

You might think so, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to agree, and I'm actually fairly certain that the developers (whoever they will be) won't either, since they'd like to sell K3 to more people than just those of us who played the last two games. If K3 is for the pc and Xbox 360, that becomes even more relevant, not less. I'd prefer to avoid the "uber-powergaming/munchkin"-hackfest, but that's just me - it would kill the progressive element of the game, where you watch your character rise to power...

Agreed. I'd prefer Revan to be DS in K3 so that if he was LS in K1, then there is something you can appeal and redeem him with, whereas if he turned DS, then he killed his friends and cannot come back to the light side. That way the choice of K1 remains, even if it means you have kill Revan yourself. If it was "just" some huge alien army, then they would have attacked a long time ago. As K2 reveals, they manipulated the Mandalorian Wars in order to cripple the republic. It worked, yet they still didn't attack. Why? Surely there's a reason for that. The most obvious problem among the Sith is probably their internal strife - everybody wants the throne, and so everybody is looking to stab everyone else in the back. Perhaps some sneaky Sith is using the fall of their empire to paint the republic as a shared enemy, so that he can gain the throne that way. That would mirror Naga Sadow's rise to power btw...

If the post gets to be too long, the quotation bit stops working. I advice less text or else to cut it into more posts. Yes and no... IMHO it's just Kreia sees it all from her own perspective. You know: "Many of the truths that we cling to, depend greatly on our own point of view." Hmm, that's actually rather profound. Good points. And I agree that Revan was sort of "raised" again with his companions as his "family". And Jolee is definitely the father, though Jolee would never admit that. Sorry, but that doesn't add up for me, since at the time Revan makes his LS/DS choice, he has no recollection of the threat of the true Sith - whether LS or DS, K2 consistently puts Revan's recollection of that threat a year after the events of K1, so that cannot be why he turned evil again. If you're right, it'll be interesting to see. But I think it's more likely we'll see a a game that ends in a great conflict where the true Sith try to conquer the republic. Just my two credits...

In jedi academy?!? The main villain of jedi academy was the ghost of Marka Ragnos, who certainly was never a woman. Speaking of KotOR, he was one of the dark lord of the Sith Empire, which are the ancestors of the "true" Sith...

Damn... Still, it seems all those who voted for Aaron Pierce won this round...