Jediphile

Agreed. But I think the question is whether the force has a will of its own, and what that will does if it exists? That may sound silly to us, but Qui-Gon did use that as the explanation for the jedi finding Anakin in Ep. I (that they also found Jar-Jar proves that if there is a will of the force, then it has a sick and twisted side as well... ) I don't think we can argue the force the same way we do god in real life. There is no proof of god in the real world, and the whole thing is a pure matter of faith. Star Wars is not quite the same, because while Han Solo clearly doesn't believe in the force (at least in Ep. IV), it is obvious that it does exist - Luke, Vader and Palpatine (and all other Jedi and Sith) could not possibly do the things they do, if it did not. While Solo may disbelieve, that is probably due to the fact that he grew up during the years when the jedi were "extinct", when knowledge of the force was probably banned by the empire (if you're a decent evil overlord, you don't reveal the source of your power - that would just prompt the annoying do-gooders to use it as well...) But even Solo must admit that the force is real after watching Luke destroy the Death Star without using a computer to guide his shot, after watching Vader deflect Han's blaster shots, after watching Luke levitate C-3PO with his will alone, etc... However, that does not mean that the force has a will, it just means that it is, that it exists. It might be an "energy field" that is there for anyone to use who knows how to do so. So the "will of the force" does become a bit like god in that whether you believe in it or not is an individual choice. Kreia believes, but not in the sense of it being something that she must serve. On the contrary, she hates the will of the force, and seeks to the destroy the force as a consequence.

Thanks. I bookmarked the old site, so I know I hadn't mistyped. I guess I should have paid better attention. Thanks for the link - you had me worried there for a second...

TSLRP is for that <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, but is it canon? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, it won't be. It's not something you can play in the game as it was officially released, so it can't be considered as such, even though all the material is based on unused content written by the developers. Lucasarts would have to declare it canon, and I doubt that will happen. I'd hope they do, though. The content was, at one point, approved by Lucasarts, after all, or else Obsidian could never have considered it in the first place. The M4-78 project will almost certainly not be canon, since the people working on it will have to create new plots and so that was moved to other places in K2. But for TSLRP it is at least possible, though probably highly doubtful.

Hey! What happened to the M4-78 site?!? I just wanted to check it out, and Yahoo! tells me the page cannot be found. Was it moved, and if so, where to?

yes You might also wish to look at their ongoing topic on this board

The force seems harmless to me, since most people in Star Wars seem oblivious to it or even doubtful of its existence. Han Solo sure did - "I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's some big, powerful force controlling everything. There is no mystical energy-field controlling my destiny! It's all just a load of simply tricks and nonsense!" So where's the harm? No, I haven't. I should have said 'unnatural' death, as in killing someone on purpose. Sorry.

That's a bit blunt, but I do agree essentially, yes.

That's a circular argument. You cannot imply that it is oppressive just because the manipulation cannot be detected and then use that as an argument for destroying so you can be "free". That's like saying that I don't feel God's presence, so that's just because he's manipulative, and now I must destroy him, so I can be free. That's bad logic. It also sounds like paranoia to me.

Yes, I think I'll have to revise my last statement, since I can't find them either. I probably got it mixed up from reading the dialog.tlk-file, where there is indeed dialogue by Kaah. It's true that Vash mentions that Kaah is dead during the voice-files, but if you go through them, you'll not that there are alternate voice-files, where it's implied that he's still alive, which suggests to me that you get to decide his fate yourself, probably by confronting him and then either redeeming or killing him.

I'm not sure that's entirely correct, because I know there are voice-files for Kaah, where he is all high and mighty, clearly dark sided. Also, the bond is not fatal. Vash describes at one point that Kaah assumed she was dead because he fell to the dark side and therefore could no longer sense her. Obi-Wan did not die when Darth Maul killed Qui-Gonn. In fact, during a conversation, Vash is very surprised that the Exile's bond with Kreia is so powerful that it could kill one if the other dies.

I agree that is probably what would have happened, yes. Still, that doesn't change the fact that it made an already difficult task much harder for Luke. The truth was ugly and not very kind. Of course. I never said otherwise. I just said people delude themselves, if they think the truth is always desirable. But I'd want the truth too - the alternative is not reliable.

Yes, but then they were right, too. Katarr being destroyed was not a good thing, and I do think it's reliable when they say they felt the same thing when they condemned the Exile as they did when Nihilus destroyed Katarr. It's something bad, because he has the power to hurt - maybe even kill - the force itself. So while I might not agree with how the masters decided to resolve the matter, there was certainly good reason to be afraid. Thanks, I try... :cool:

Was he a man of wealth and taste?

If I avoid it it's probably most because I cannot discuss the force itself, since I have no idea what it is. So it's not that I like it as such, but probably more because there are some characters that care about whom I do like. To quote Shakespeare: "... And makes us bear rather those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not off? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all..." (Hamlet, Act III, Scene I) Or put simply: We know what we have, but we don't know what we'll get. Free of what? I may not know what the force is, but I don't get the impression that it is somehow oppressive to people, so that doesn't make much sense to me. And I don't like the idea of just casually accepting that some will die in "can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs"-kind of philosophy. That's just cruel.

Yes, but that doesn't make the masters' conclusions untrue. Remember that the masters also say: "When we felt Katarr die, there is something we felt, something we'd felt once before. An echo in the Force.We'd felt it before when you stood before us. Whatever this threat, whatever this hunger is, it is something tied to you, something you have experienced directly. This echo travels in the places where death has walked, where planets have died. Massacres fuel its power, the death of life fuels it." It's true that the Exile cut himself off from the force, but it was the act of doing so that created the force wound in the first place. Remember that the Exile went back to the council afterwards, so that is what they experienced at that point. On the contrary. The Exile admits himself that his connection to others is only throug the force that he can "drain" off others through his force bonds with them. That's pure speculation. I happen to agree with it, but there is no basis for concluding it as a matter of fact. It is never said or even implied in the game.

Maybe so, but I think it's more appropriate to say that they feared the Exile or at least his ability to wound the force. I also think the quotation above (from the meeting with the masters on Dantooine) ties in with something Kreia says, when you ask her about the Sith Lords and get to Nihilus: Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." Now, isn't this *exactly* what happened to the Exile on Malachor V? Kreia: "Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts. {Chiding}"Power? Do you think so?{Shakes head}You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls." Again, feeding of others and "devouring" them... Isn't that *precisely* what the Exile can do?

We can post ideas that might just make it into a version of K2? (w00t) You can count on me to provide a few, as I think of them. Though naturally they should be appropriate, given that the entire planet is poisoned. I suppose the best would be associated with things that the droids cannot do themselves... I can't recall if it's ever revealed whether the Sith were the original settlers of M4-78, but if they were not, that begs the question of what became of the settlers? Maybe there is a crashed scout ship from those settlers somewhere with a wounded crewmember who is trapped because he cannot repair his ship, since he cannot move outside it due to the poison and his wounds. Hmm, maybe that's too complex. A few areas that are inaccessible because the droids don't know about environmental controls we also be good. Maybe a malfunctioning food/water supply that the droids ignore, since they don't need it. I'll be post more ideas, if I think of any that are good. I bet you wish you hadn't made a call for them now... :D Well, it's just that if a topic on which CRPGs are in production is good enough to be stickified, then I think this topic should be too. After all, the TSL Restoration Project (and thus Team Gizka) grew out of a topic about the cut content, which was later stickified, until the group decided to replace it by an entirely new topic. So I think this topic is just as deserving. The Restoration Project may make more of an impact, since it brings the cut stuff back across the entire game, but you guys actually intend to write original material yourselves, and that's no small ambition in my book.

There are several problems with this idea, the least of which is that I wouldn't like to see K3 based on it. First, why would Revan go and look for the mask if he ended up as LS in K1? If the mask is all there is, then there is really is no danger to the republic that he needs to go and confront. Second, you seem to assume that the original Sith species is somehow powerful in the force. That is not the case. Indeed, the outcast dark jedi became the Sith masters because they were far more powerful than the Sith species and enslaved them. If anyone had such ancient mystical secrets, it would be the original dark jedi outcasts, not the original sith species. Third, the jedi masters on Dantooine tells the Exile that somehow the new sith (meaning Nihilus) learned his abilities from the Exile. There is a connection there that cannot be ignored. Nihilus' origin is tied to the Exile, not to some Sith artifact. "The Sith are a threat, it is true. But the threat they present... it is tied to you in some way. The echo we have felt on the worlds we have walked - we have encountered it only once before, when you stood before us at your trial.We believe that somehow, you are creating this - or that the Sith have learned this technique from you."

Well, after searching through the .TLK file we found that there wasn't actually any more planned voicing for Vash (So far as we know...). There is, however, enough to suit the planet's "Endgame." The original reason for not revoicing Vash was that revoicing her for the sake of adding those new lines in would have moved this further away from being a restoration. Believe me, you wont be dissapointed with the ending we have planned for Vash! I hope... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, great - now I really can't wait to see how this turns out - stop teasing! Hmmm, does this mean that Vash won't be at the restored jedi enclave on Dantooine when Kreia reveals herself? I guess time will tell... Anyway, it looks like you guys are off to a good start EDIT: Hey mods - why hasn't this topic been "stickified" yet?

Yes, it's Peragus, but I don't agree that T3 was ever in her "care". He was on the Ebon Hawk and flew it back to the Republic - Kreia was not. T3 came looking for the Exile in an attempt to have him help save the republic as per Bastila's orders (see the hologram for male Revan). Kreia never had any control over T3 as far as I can tell. Well, I do admire Kreia for her defiance, but while I do so, that does not excuse the actions she takes in her struggle against the force itself. Defying the will of the force? Fine. Sacrificing other people to reach that goal? Unacceptable. I may also like Milton's 'satanic hero' in "Paradise Lost" for his daring attempts at defiance, but that does not mean I think he's a nice person. Prometheus would be a much better example, since he defies the gods for the sake of humanity But Kreia's motives are not nearly as benevolent. She may hate the force for good reasons, but she still thinks of like dirt and sees them only as a means to be used so that she can achieve her own goals. That's not so cool. Kreia is a great character, but that doesn't mean I like her as a person. The only problem I have with that is that it infers that the jedi simply embrace the code out of fear of the dark side. That may be true in some or even many cases, but I definitely don't think it's true for all. Agreed, but my point is also that the code is hollow if that is all you have to cling to as Atris did. And as Obi-Wan would say, only a Sith deals in absolutes. That prhase certainly spelled doom for Atris. Isn't that what dark jedi are all about? A problem here is that the all tend to fall to the dark side and become Sith, so we don't really have any good examples, though Asajj Ventress might be one of the best. Someone suggested a cool character for K3 who was a dark jedi who hated the Sith and wanted to kill them. I could see a character like that working beautifully (at least until he too embraced the dark side so much that he becomes a Sith as well). But yes, I'd agree that Star Wars generally have a rigid perspective of only jedi and sith (representing good and evil). But the jedi order and the Sith are still the extremes, while the gray and dark jedi represent those who are closer to the middle. They must still choose side, though.

I think this is more likely to be the fate of K4 than K3. It seems obvious to me that K2 needs a K3 to finish off the ongoing plot development, so there really is no reason to delay storywise, since the current plot needs resolution and closure. But KotOR is likely to go on, and where a K4 game would go really is anyone's guess.

I second that... on both counts. A sticky on this topic, please. And the working on restoring M4-78 is indeed cool. I very much look forward to actually meeting Master Vash instead just finding her in a pool of her own blood on the floor. She also seemed to be one of the nicest jedi masters (next to Zez-Kai Ell). Keep up the good work!

Hate is the mark of the dark side and of the Sith. Kreia, in KotOR2, was a Sith. That she hated the other Sith and did not seek power for her own sake as they did is immaterial - she tried to force her own convictions and desires upon the rest of the galaxy, regardless of the consequences or wishes of others. That's evil. Besides, I can think of few people who make for a more brutal force-wielder than Kreia - she uses it indiscriminately and without restraint whenever it suits her purposes. Just because she is smart and sly like Sidious and unlike most other Sith lords does not mean that she is not evil or not a Sith. She was a Sith and acted like one. Her motives don't matter - she did what she did, and good and evil is decided by what you do, what actions you take, not what excuses you can make for them.

I actually agree with that. But even so, the dark side will always lose. Why? Because there is and can be no trust or friendship among those who follow the dark side - they are all out to get each other, so there can never be any true strength in numbers. Unlike the light side. Therefore the light side will always be victorious, since evil feeds even upon itself.

The real question is what exactly means when Kreia says the Exile is her greatest student ever. Note that the Exile has an exceptional power to defy the force that Revan does not (at least as far as we know, and Kreia probably knows better than most), and that power is one that Kreia truly admires, because it allows him to deny the force, which is desirable to her given how much she hates the force. That makes the Exile "great" in Kreia's eyes, but I don't think it's the same as saying that the Exile is stronger than Revan. I consider Revan more powerful, though the Exile has powers that Revan lacks. Don't forget, the Exile denied the dark side, whereas Revan gave in to it. The Exile is very powerful at the end of K2, yes, but Revan was also pretty powerful by the end of K1, which was set five years before. No way of knowing how powerful he was by K2... As for Revan being a cooler sith lord than Vader... yeah, sure... and maybe pigs will fly...