Jediphile

Precisely. That's what went wrong with the game in the first place - no need to repeat that pattern. My advice is to move on now, then come back once the mod is finished.

I think it only fair to warn people who are considering buying KotOR2 that the game is still in an uncomplete state, because Lucasarts pushed the deadline and so forced Obsidian to cut a lot from the game. This means that the game is excellent (barring annoying bugs) until you're about 70-80% through it, and then a disappointing turn towards the end. Even so, I still recommend it. There are more force-powers, levels and classes than in KotOR1, so when it comes to gameplay, it's still excellent - you just don't get a complete resolution to all the characters of the plot and need to ask around here or examine the clues given to figure it all out. A group is making a mod to restore the lost endings and other cut stuff, though. I'd give a link, but that would be a big spoiler.

More than just rumor. Read what Bioware's David Gaider says about it here.

Have you ever seen them use one? :D

Though I guess I should have included Wayne Palmer in this poll, both the top candidates - Audrey Raines and Aaron Pierce - were certainly in danger this time. Still, that's two episodes of 24 now, where none of the main cast have died - the writers must be slipping But it also means this poll can continue. Too bad not so many are interested in it, but oh well...

Dramatically and plotwise, yes, but that doesn't come across well the first time you see it, at least it didn't for me. Like the poster of this topic, I was more like "WTF?!?" Then I played it again. And again. And I read through the text in the dialog.tlk file. It helped a lot, and plotwise it's solid in the same way Ep. V was, but even so it still hurts the game that the ending was cut to pieces - the end result is a horribly scarred and unfinished game. I don't mind an open ending (like "Empire Strikes Back"), but I do mind an unfinished one.

Yeah, I agree. I'd much rather see Coruscant, Alderaan, Sleheyron, Myrkr, Khar Delba (and Khar Shian), Thule and Ziost (the last four (counting Khar Shian) are worlds of the ancient Sith)

We agree there. It was nice to see that Telos had grasslands as well as an icy polar region in K2, which was a nice change from the usual planetary philosophy of Star Wars, which seems to be "one terrain fits all"... In truth, I was surprised to see Alderaan in Ep. III, because we followed Organa's ship over the icecovered mountains, and I went "what? Alderaan is an ice world?!?" until he reached the port, and the scene then switched to him and his wife with the infant Leia. I had already read about what Alderaan looked like, so I was really thrown, but I suppose it just goes to show how used I've become to the "one terrain fits all"-idea when it comes to Star Wars...

That picture is of the actual capital of the entire planet, and as such it's not exactly proof that Alderaan is an urbane world. The fact that you chose that one image of all those available suggests This is actually quite obvious to anyone, who bothers to go through the admittidly demanding task of actually reading the description of the world: "Considered the "Shining Star" of the Core Worlds, wild grasslands and old mountain ranges dominated the planet's land surface. Large oceans and scattered inland seas provided the planet with ideal conditions for a large variety of flora and fauna to develop. As such, Alderaan was the homeworld of some of the galaxy's most famous animals, such as the nerf and the thranta. Alderaanian cities were often built with great care taken to protect nature. One city was built on the walls of a canyon, nearly invisible from above. Other cities were built on stilts along the shoreline or under the polar ice. The capital, Aldera, known for its university, was built on a small island in the center of a caldera." I hope you do see that your choice to include precisely that one image while omitting the others, which do not support your flawed position, can be construed that you are trying to misrepresent the facts. That does not make for the best basis for an informed discussion, I fear.

Yeah, it looks great as a background when Anakin fights Ventress in the Clone Wars cartoons. But I wouldn't want it in the games, because it would invariably screw with Exar Kun being trapped there. What the... ?!? Alderaan is not a city-planet like Coruscant or Nar Shaddaa. It looks much more like Dantooine. Maybe Rhen Var would be good - there is apparently jedi artifacts buried there (at least in the movies era), and it has relevance since Ulic Qel-Droma died and was buried there.

My approach exactly. My Exile is always a Sentinel with Int 14, so can build fairly good levels in most skills. And those I don't put priority on myself (like Stealth), I usually let the other jedi build instead (Kreia builds Stealth, for example). Thus, no need for non-jedi. Besides, you want Kreia in there for the extra xp

Yes, but the danger is also there of losing the audience you already have if you completely disregard what is already established. Just look at what happened to Star Trek (Enterprise) for a good example of what happens then... My own suggestion was to do it as part of jedi history classes on Coruscant in the beginning of the game. Not sure if that's cheesy, but discussing Revan and Exile as part of recent jedi history seems more than relevant. You cannot make Revan and Exile genderless due to their romantic attachments, especially Revan. For Revan to get any sort of closure, you must resolve the relationship with Carth or Bastila depending on gender. As for alignment, I think K2 already foreshadowed that with the visions in the tomb on Korriban. Note how you first have a scene with Malak recruiting jedi (pre-Mandalorian Wars history), then a scene with a battle on Dxun (also the past during the Mandalorian Wars). Next came a showdown between Kreia and your companions (the present), and finally you meet dark side visions of Revan and yourself, who both have dark side mastery (you can see that if you learned Force Sight from Visas)... I dare say this points to the future, so I think Revan and Exile will both be DS if you meet them again in K3 - it's already planned, as far as I can tell. Much as I hate to admit it, pc gamers are not the primary audience of KotOR, and we never were. So the real question is whether the game will come out only for the Xbox 360, and whether you can play K1 and K2 on that as well. If Xbox 360 can't do K1 and K2 or if K3 comes out for Playstation 3 as well, then I'd agree the target audience could be new people. But then, many could have moved on from the old Xbox, and even if they didn't, that doesn't mean you have to know the content of K1 and K2 by heart to make a progressive story. I have also adviced playing a new character in K3, making Revan and Exile enter the scene only towards the end of the game. That could mean that uncovering the truth of the previous games as well (and certainly more importantly) as what has happened to them since K2. Again, history is a foundation for good storytelling if used right. It does not have to be an obstacle unless you making it one by insisting on it. Not so sure I agree with that one... I'm actually disappointed to learn that Palpatine's Empire only lasted 23 years - it always seemed much older to me. And besides, don't you think Obi-Wan looked older than 57 in Ep. IV or Vader/Anakin older than 46 in Return of the Jedi? Many authors seemed to have the same impression before the prequels were made as well. As a consequence there is a notable continuity problem in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy... But that's exactly why we need a follow-up K3. K2 was a set-up for it, as Ep.5 was a set-up for Ep.6. We haven't seen KotOR's "Return of the Jedi" yet, and the plot is wide open and unresolved. It doesn't pass the torch to Luke, but the movies aren't really about Luke anymore - they'are about Anakin's rise, fall to the dark side, and his eventual redemption. Luke has become a mere means by which to tell that story. Vader is the main character of the Star Wars movies now, not Luke Skywalker. No. As you just said yourself, Ep. 4 was resolved, just as K1 was. The Death Star was not originally meant to be destroyed until in Ep. 6, but Lucas wasn't sure he'd ever get to do it, so he put it in the original movie instead. That's why we have two Death Stars. Lucas need to "reopen" his plot and build on it. He did so in Ep. 5, setting the stage for Ep. 6. K2 does the same for K3 - that's why it has an open ending that needs resolution.

While Persuade is indeed central, I find that Demolitions is very useful in K2. If you have a high Demolitions skill, you can recover ludicrous amounts of mines beneath the Jekk'Jekk Tarr and on GOTO's yacht. But you do *need* a skill above 20 for that - 20 alone is not enough. I'd say about 24 or so will do. The mines you recover can then later be used other places, sold for cash (as if you need it...), or (more likely) broken down for materials.

I guess I overlooked the vast importance of the mere NAME of an ABANDONED rebel base.........

All the more reason to give it some character, so that it's not just some random name we don't have to care about. I still think Episode I should have been set on Alderaan instead of Naboo. That would also have happily gotten those awful Gungans out of the films

Agreed. Plot is and always should be central. If not, there is no way I will ever play. I don't think I could possibly disagree more. In fact, I think I disagree with just about everything you say here. First of all, the stories of Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd are scarcely untold. Check out the Tales of the Jedi comic books (Golden Age of the Sith for Ragnos, Freedon Nadd Uprising and Dark Lords of the Sith for Freedon Nadd) if you have interest in this. They are now part of history set in stone and cannot be altered, which makes them unsuitable for games except as background history (which is how the KotOR games used them). Second, I disagree vehemently that you cannot continue the story. On the contrary, K2 seemed to go out of its way to set the stage for a possible K3 exactly because K1 did not leave much room for a sequel - that's why we see the Exile and not Revan in K2. I also think you're completely overlooking that K2 ended with a promise from Kreia that there was more on the horizon... Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark. Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. It would have helped had he made her understand. But she was always strong-willed, that one, and did not understand war as Revan did. Because I did not know where he had gone. If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know.But he will need warriors, Sith and Jedi, any who can be sent after him into the depths of space, any who know the way.Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things." Especially the last bit here says very clearly that neither the Exile's nor Revan's story is finished yet, and I disagree in the strongest terms that the Exile's story has been resolved in any way, though this goes back to theories that we have discussed on these boards before. I don't understand why you can insist that there are "limits and boundaries" just because a K3 must build on what has happened in K2 and K3. On the contrary, that is less limiting, because anything can happen in that time period - we have virtually no knowledge of what happens in the galaxy during the time between K2 and the time of Darth Ruin's Sith order almost 2000 years later, so K3 can go in whatever direction it pleases. If your problem lies with reconciling where Revan and Exile ended up in K1 and K2 respectively, then I fail to see why that must be considered a "problem". Writers of Star Trek have frequently considered establised facts a "problem", but that's just because they're unimaginative and failed completely to realise just what an advantage a rich history can be for plot development. Several people here have already proposed plots that reconcile these things, among those both Hawk and myself (though we don't agree on how to do so). I thought there were clues in K2 that foreshadowed how we would meet both Revan and the Exile in K3, so I dare say the devs have already taken this into account.

1. In ancient times or in the KotOR era? In ancient times they didn't - it was their graveyard world, where the greatest sith lords were buried. In Revan's age, it was one of the few known worlds of the ancient Sith, and so Revan and Malak's Sith placed their academy there (since Malachor was practically destroyed, or else Revan wanted to keep it's secrets to himself). 2. Don't know. Even in the KotOR era, this seems to be hazy. Andur Sunrider had a wife and child while he was a jedi. Even Jolee had a wife, so it seems that rule came about some time before K1, but after the Great Sith War of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. 3. I don't think even GL has settled that bit, and since it's important to the movies, everyone else working with Star Wars creatively is probably not permitted or even willing to touch it with a ten-foot pole. 4. 3963 Before the Battle of Yavin, which is about four years before K1. 5. This. It's pretty uneventful, jedi vs. sith-wise, since he's already dead before the jedi even learn of the Sith Empire (or vice versa). 6. The story of Exar Kun has been told and finished. Check out the Tales of the Jedi comic books The Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War, if you want to know. This is all history set in stone now. 7. The best estimate is probably around 25.000 years Before the Battle of Yavin when the Galactic Constitution was signed. 8. Beginning at low levels and watching your character grow to power is the most fun aspect of the d20 system. Still, I'd go for a skill-based system myself in a second, but as long as we're stuck with d20, it would be utter stupidity to throw away the progressive element, which is one of its few redeeming qualities, silly and illogical though it may be. 9. Dooku (=Darth Tyranus) had left the order by the time we meet him in Episode II. Jedi who still belong to the order are supposed to follow the code and report in for new orders now and then, though they can be given those through transmission or even the force, I guess. Jolee left the order too, of course, and so doesn't answer to the council, even though he did not turn to the dark side. 10. The KotOR system comes from D&D's simplistic d20 system. I guess it really shows here.

Agreed. For the initial class, Sentinel is better than the alternatives in K2, not least because building skills is really useful (unlike K1). For the prestige class, the jedi master class has some nice advantages to the alternatives. The jedi weapon master swims in feats, but you really don't need them. I find them totally redundant next to the extra force powers of the jedi master. The watchman is worth if only if you're into sneaking around, which I'm not. I prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around... Oh, and the sith classes are just for power-hungry little munchkins...

Huh?!? Where? Dantooine wasn't even in the movies. We just heard Leia "betray" a rebel base there to Vader and Tarkin in order to save Alderaan from the Death Star in the original movie (Episode IV). But we later hear that the base had long since been abandoned. That's it - that's all we ever hear of Dantooine in the movies. I agree with Benfea that I'd like to see Alderaan in KotOR. It seems just a valid a place to have in the either story as planets like Nar Shaddaa or Taris to me. I want to see both Alderaan and Coruscant in K3, if it's ever done.

1) That's just an opinion, and even though I tend to share it with you, that doesn't mean we're right. Other people like the Disciple, and their desire to have him be canonical (i.e., female Exile) is just as valid as yours and mine for the Handmaiden to be so. 2) Well, I agree a bit there. She's still there, but she sort of slips out of the story once you leave the Telos academy. Disciple, on the other hand, clearly has a major connection to Carth (or Cede) in the male Exile version. 3) This is Star Wars, so it's just as likely to have a female general as a male. Just look at Dodonna in K1, for example. 4) Maybe so, but I hear someone at Lucasarts is still calling for a canonically female Exile... 5) I do think, however, that there are other and better reasons for a male Exile. For one thing, while the Disciple has a connection to the female Exile, I find that the Handmaiden's story is much more interesting. One point here is particularly about the relationship to Atris, who clearly had history with the male Exile, but little or none with the female Exile. That means her fall to the dark side is told far deeper in the male version of the game, and the betrayal of the Handmaiden, when you train her as a jedi is very compelling - I loved the "Betrayal!" bit that Atris and Kreia did at that point. Also, without the Handmaiden, we know very little about Arren Kae...

IIRC, Ludo Kressh and the rest of his fleet/army disappeared after the war with Naga Sadow. They could be the remnants that still rule somewhere in the outer regions. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Two, things. First of all the Great Hyperspace War was set 1000 years before the KotOR era - all the characters in those stories have long since died of old age. Second, Ludo Kressh didn't escape - Naga Sadow killed him and destroyed his fleet, but lost most of his own during the fight, which made his forces defenseless when the Republic fleet tracked him back the Sith Empire. That's why the story was called "Fall of the Sith Empire". Naga Sadow escaped to establish his temple on Yavin IV until he was betrayed and apparently killed by his apprentice, Freedon Nadd (what actually happened there is still a bit hazy).

Attack her!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Yes, Visas is cool - I like Visas My only point was that you could kill her if you wanted to. That I only *ever* did it twice myself and then reloaded immediately after says a lot.

Not all people - I don't like evil either. It's easy being evil and treating people like dirt. And even if I didn't find it objectionable on a moral basis, it's just too easy being evil and behaving like a jerk. Besides, being evil is always ultimately self-defeating. Anyone who ever read Richard III knows this... Not sure if I'd embrace the jedi life of eternal servitude, though. I'd probably lean more toward Jolee's approach...

Yes, I should probably have noted this myself. The reason I mention Blake's 7 is because I decided to watch it again about a year ago in a fit og nostalgia, and I was amazed at how well it had managed the test of time, if you overlook the props/make-up and visual effects, which are so ancient it's laughable by contemporary standards. But plotwise Blake's 7 is as solid as anything I've seen in recent years. So are the characters. I don't quite agree with you on Red Dwarf, though. It began damn funny, and has remained so since IMHO. Even losing Rimmer from the crew didn't stop this show being funny, and he was probably the most amusing of the lot. Of course, the visual effects on Red Dwarf aren't exactly impressive either - you watch it only because it's hilarious.