Jediphile

Ah, but there is an important distinction here, which you don't seem to consider. We can argue about how extensive D&D 3e should be, depending on what we expect from our various games, but the same is not true of d20. WotC intended d20 to be a base that served as a foundation for whatever games you wanted to do. That's why there is d20 Star Wars, d20 Cthulhu, etc. Those games are not the same as d20 D&D (3e) - they will not attract the same players and will not have the same agenda. D20 is meant to be an extensive foundation to build on. You can read WotC's own intentions to make d20 the industry standard, if you doubt that. My problem is that for an industry-wide standard for RPGs, d20 is about the worst foundation I can think of, since it's horrible limited and inflexible to me. I find that I cannot write or play the sort of games I like with d20, and so I don't think it, or any of its offsprings, can be called "intuitive". That goes without saying to me - every campaign is different. I also don't see that as a bad thing. However, that should not be taken to mean that this makes the question of well-designed rules an non-issue. You have to look at why the GM decided to add houserules to his campaign. If he did so simply to perfect his own game-style, then things are okay, and he's on the right track with his game IMHO. But if he made houserules because he felt the core rules were flawed, then we have a design-flaw instead of a simple matter of personal taste and preference. Those two are not the same. No, not always. You say you prefer a "gamist" approach, but there is a question of how far that goes. As an example I will take random loot. In most CRPGs, loot is exceedingly random indeed. There is little or no reason why I should find "Bindo's Band" in Visquis's lair beneath the Jekk' Jekk Tarr in KotOR2, but it did happen once. Similarly, it there is no reason why I should expect a swarm of mosquitos (or whatever they were) to randomly drop a suit of heavy plate armor when I kill them in Diablo 2, but that has also happened for me. Is this logical? (hint: this is a rhetorical question... ) Of course not, but you might accept it in a "gamist" environment, so if I understand you correctly, you would have no problem with this. I, however, do, since I find that it doesn't suspend disbelief. In fact, I find it blantantly annoying to the point of obvious stupidity thrown right in face. It tells me what the designers/programmers think of me, if I accept this, and what they think is not something positive... And I know I would never allow it in my own campaign, nor would my players. In tabletop RPGs, most treasure is conquered from fallen enemies, not stored away somewhere. I mean, if that orc chieftain had a bastard sword +3 frost brand, then why didn't he use it during the fight? That's basic stupidity too. The same is true if you can see enemies using certain items during a fight, only to then have it magically disappear once you kill them. As an old GM of mine once said, "all good role-playing is based on the moral principle of grave-robbery" I find this annoying in KotOR2 as well. If those Sith soldiers used blasters against me and wore armor, then I should bloody find those items once they're defeated. I can accept that some of their gear might be broken or similar during the fight, but not all of it. And why did Sith soldiers run around with a green lightsaber crystal or whatever? Basic stupidity. In KotOR2 the random loot generator was a bit too random (=d20), whereas it was better in KotOR1. I might not have found all the lightsabers and robes the dark jedi I fought used during the fight, but I did find some of them.

Yeah, but "we have a stiff in the morgue that seems to have died twice..."

Yeah, but there's this other thing that annoys in K2, which concerns the Exile. He's supposed to my character - the one I'm to identify with - yet I don't get to know half of his background or what he's thinking. For example, what has his motive to return to the republic? I don't know and I'm never told. That makes it pretty hard to associate with the character right from the beginning. And then when I'm just getting into the character, I crash on Dxun and talk about the landing, but it isn't until my own character leaves, that I learned from Kreia (talking to Atton) that the Exile - me - was on Dxun during the Mandalorian Wars. Very annoying! Obsidian really botched the job on the main character identification for the player. That needs - no, *must* - be remedied for the next game. At least they had an excuse in K1, because Revan lost his memories...

I really need to stop reading this topic, since it's nothing but one long slash-fest of GL and the prequels by a bunch of Statler and Waldorf types behaving like crybabies... Honestly, if someone cannot find *anything* positive to say about the prequels, then it's clearly because they're biased and have already *decided* to hate them with a vengeance in any event. And people are so quick to praise the originals. My, how people forget. "Empire Strikes Back" was a great movie - by far the best of the films IMHO, but "Return of the Jedi" was a very mediocre rehash of all the plots that had already been used in the two previous films - another Death Star, another fight between Luke and Vader, another walk by R2 and 3PO across the Tatooine desert, another Rebel Attack on the empire's superweapon... The movies didn't get *that* bad - people just all older and now remember the original trilogy with a good dose of nostalgia. That's okay, but spare us the crap about how GL sold out and messed up - he really didn't change his storytelling that much from RotJ, which anyone can note if they go back and dare to look at that movie with *critical* eyes. The only thing that truly worked for RotJ was the impressive ability to have an evolving finale that lasted 40+ minutes, which is not an easy feat. On the other hand, I don't exactly hear people praising the prequels for its lightsaber battles, which were clearly far more intense and spectacular than in the original trilogy. As for the dialogue - it's bloody Star Wars! It's not a shakespearean play. If I want excellent and clever dialogue, then I read or watch Richard III or Hamlet again, not Star Wars. Besides, not all the dialogue was awful. I liked Padme's comment about the republic's fall: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause". That's not exactly bad. That people don't see this just tells me that they're biased against the prequels. They may not have been great art (and were never supposed to be), but they weren't that awful either. I hate JarJar too, but he's not exactly a major character, no matter how annoying he is. People who can only slash and moan about the prequels are just behaving like a bunch of spoiled kiddies who are whining because GL stole your favorite toy and broke it. Well, build a bridge and get over it!

Kreia as often as possible, agreed. The game is about getting experience, and she provides a handy bonus, even if she is an evil old hag - you can't be too choosy about where your xps come from... Next to her is whatever jedi character is most convenient, which meant I used Visas a lot early on. Disciple was useful as a jedi, though, because I could replenish force points with him, even if he can be annoying to listen to.

Yes, some people have pointed out that you can get this response even if you set Revan to DS, though I've never encountered it myself (or else I just wasn't paying attention). But naturally it's a mistake - if Revan was DS, then Vandar died at the Star Forge. If Revan was LS, Vandar died on Katarr instead.

Tough call, but I'd probably go for K1, since they actually got to finish the game... K2 had great story with excellent characters (especially Kreia), but the game was slashed to pieces by the cut content

Actually, Vader was a tough opponent even after that. He faced eight jedi who set a trap for him at the Conclave on Kessel and he killed the lot of them! Not exactly pathetic...

That's the idea I'm using for my story. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I still prefer a yound padawan who was youngling until shortly before the game begins.

Why would you close it down? It may not be KotOR3 we just talked about, but on the other hand, at least we didn't slash at each others ideas and preferences for once. I must confess that I find discussing K3 a bit peculiar at times - you can only listen to people's call for customizable lightsabers and hooded robes so many times before it becomes repetitive... And nobody seems to read or care about each other's plot suggestions, which means that they either get slashed for their length and content or else (and worse) just sit there uncommented... But fine, I'll try something else. As people no doubt realise if they've read any of my many rants on the subject before, I don't much care for the d20 system. KotOR has been very tied to d20 so far, and it might be impossible to separate the two. However, I might prefer the devs take that chance and try another system. Anyone else feel that way?

How do you build a life support suit for a cauterised head ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Probably the same way they did with Simus in The Golden Age of the Sith comic books... Not that I voice support for the idea, mind you - that was pretty silly

Well obviously the scene was written to allow a certain outcome. In the WEG book they have Anakin hanging onto the bridge with his one remaining hand and Obi Wan trying to pull him up. Then Anakin falls into the lava below and Obi Wan never see's him land. Obi Wan dosnt cut his legs off . They burn up because he lands on a platform but his legs go over the side into the lava. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What I missed in that scene was Obi-Wan overcoming his own sense of compassion and trying to force-push Anakin into the lava to prevent the Sith from growing more poweful from Anakin's strength. Anakin should then have prevented that by pushing back, leaving Obi-Wan no choice but to simply leave - Anakin may have lost his arm and legs, but not his force powers. I mean, Obi-Wan set out to destroy Anakin, to kill him. Basically he slipped up. A scene like the above would have settled that, while also underscoring Anakin's powers even in such a condition.

Oh, how brave and foolish you are... Eat you alive the Bastila-fanboys will! :D

Wrong! The Exile cut himself off from the Force when everybody that he was bonded to, died in horrible agony. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exactly. The Exile just thought the masters were to blame, since he lost his connection around the same time. In short, he blameshifted because he didn't want to face the truth, which is indeed at the very heart of the matter in KotOR2.

Sorry. I can be verbose at times, I know. That was actually a short post on my part, though. Note that most of it was quotes - you have to blame Obsidian for those He was cast out of the order, which is the only life he had ever known. That he went back to face the council tells us a lot about how much the order meant to him. But cast out and thinking himself cut off from the force, he went where no one knew his shame and disgrace... or so I think. We really don't know, actually. I agree with that. I think she staged the whole thing because she knew what the Exile was and how she could use his unique abilties to fight and destroy the Force.

Actually no. You could not take a stat below 8 in K1, which is only just below average. So a turnip is out of the question :D Okay, I'll take another example. How were any of the following measure in K1? - Carth's piloting abilities. - Canderous' ruthlessness. - T3's computer-hacking skills (Mission wasn't allowed to open the door to the Sith base on Taris) - Zaalbar's sense of loyaty to his life debt. - Mission's friendship with Zaalbar (she left her home to go with him). - HK-47's desire to kill "meatbags" - Bastila's immaturity. - Juhani's volatile nature. You think the state he left Anakin in was merciful compared to death?

The rules can be imperfect whether you or I like them or not. If obvious flaws can be pointed out in the rules, doesn't that mean that they should be fixed? Besides, there is also the question of what D&D we're talking about. I liked 2e player option rules. I didn't like 3e and onwards, because I thought the system regressed instead of growing. I can excuse 2e, but the core is all the way back from the late 80s, and so its age shows. 3e is brand new, however, and is a very different game, so there is little excuse fo the rules being mind-numbingly simplistic and rigid (at least to me). D20 might not be bad for some very simple hack'n slash games, but that also means that is a very superficial and inflexible system. It's an old but functional gamecube or PS1, not a slick anc advanced PC with fancy graphics and able to handle whatever you want it to. I just think it could have been a far more playable game without too much trouble. I don't much see the distinction, but I suppose you could say that. However, while rules a secondary to the role-playing experience, you still use them to set the foundation that your game will be built on. Therefore they are important, even if secondary. For example, I'm not planning to score low grades on my exams, but I'd still like to know what the passing grade is in case my own is pretty bad. In the same way the rules, though of lesser priority, are significant because they decide matters, when they come into play. As a player, I prefer to have knowledge of the rules, if I can. The reason for that are a few bad experiences with GMs who made the house rules up spontaneously, so that I never knew what his rulings would be. I don't mind that he changed the rules from the book. I do mind that he did so without telling me what they were instead, because that meant I created my character and played how I would play on a faulty foundation. And if you overrule the rules as a GM, that ruling should be consistent - it should work the same way next time, which it didn't always do. We had a very positive thing happen to one character after a specific situation. However, when the exact same thing happened to my own character, the outcome was not the same. Very annoying. Consequently I made a note to always write my own house rules down and make them available to the players so that they could always find out what to expect. I don't agree with that, since if the rulesystem is extensive and perfect, I will have no need to write house rules to make up for rules that I find to be flawed. And even if I do write house rules to suit my own preferences in my campaign, they will be few and therefore comprehensible to my players.

1. Agreed, but it needs to be implemented better than in K2. It made no sense that Handmaiden still lost influence when you did evil things after you had both become Sith, for example. Similarly, HK-47 still wanted to kill every meatbag in sight after I had given him LS mastery. Not good... But still a good idea, it just broken in some areas and needs to be fixed. 2. We all seem to want Coruscant. At least, I cannot remember anyone saying that they didn't want to see Coruscant in K3. 3. Obviously. I would prefer the number of companions to be smaller, though - you don't need half of them anyway. At least, I never used T3 in K1 or GOTO in K2... 4. Finally someone who sees it the same way I do. We seem to be in the minority, though. 5. The problem with the old characters is that they might have ended up in different places depending on your final LS/DS choice in the game. For example, Atton could be a Sith or a Jedi by the end of K2, and Mission is dead if Revan was DS. That makes it pretty difficult write a story that takes it into account. That said, I have voiced support for both of those in my own preferred plot, though Atton was not playable, and Mission was only playable for at short time. 6. If Revan is in there, then the love interest in K1 is more than likely to be touched upon, I think. 7. Yes. I wanted them both to be playable at the climax/finale of the game. 8. I think you should be able to choose both gender, alignment, appearance and jedi class for both Revan and Exile. Welcome to the forum.

The prophecy of the jedi says that he would destroy the sith and bring balance to the force. And he did in RotJ by destroying the emperor and himself. As all prophecies, it just didn't come about in the way many had thought. No, thanks.

Revan is consistently described as a strategic mastermind. How was that measured in K1? He was also said to have resolute leadership abilities and was famous or at least notorious. How was this measured? BG at least had a reputation stat... Anakin was more powerful than Obi-Wan, but he didn't have as much hands-on experience, and he was acting out of anger and hatred, which makes people do stupid things. If he hadn't tried that jump just to prove his own superiority, things might have turned out quite different. It's scarcely as if Obi-Wan was toying with him.

Gray jedi are not "in between". They are not dark jedi and they are not Sith. You could call them "good", but only after a fashion. Unlike the "proper" jedi, the gray jedi are simply jedi who have left the order and no longer feel compelled to follow the code. That's it. That's all there is to it. At least as far as I can tell... But I don't agree that Jolee is a "do-gooder". Jolee went into seclusion not caring what happened in the galaxy around him (Mandalorian Wars, for example). He also does not feel compelled to reveal Revan's identity to him, though not because he heeds the council's wishes in the matter. Jolee simply does what he thinks is right and nothing else. If he behaves in a "benign" manner towards Revan, then it's only because he feel like doing so. He also doesn't scold Revan for using the force to his own advantage in a few situations. If you Force Persuade your way around paying the docking fee on Manaan, Jolee is not going to tell you off for it - on the contrary, he'll tell you that the council wouldn't agree, but that sometimes you need to do what you need to do.

Difficult to say... But they would deserve it in my book.

Damn, so close <{POST_SNAPBACK}> [Force Domination] You don't want it to be a surprise, Dashus...

Necroposting detected I have... Necroposting leads to derailment... Derailment leads to lockdown... Lockdown... leads to suffering... The way of the dark side it is.

Yup