Jediphile

No, one part of the rules says something specific, only you don't agree with it. The other part implies something else to you. You are welcome to your interpretations, but bear in mind that that is indeed what they are. Except the rest of the rules do not support your interpretation per se. Your interpretation is not impossible, but it's still your's and not what the rules dictate. I don't agree with your interpretation, and you have not been able to prove me wrong on that point, nor are you about to, since my interpretation remains just as valid as your's. That's fine, except I argue from a position of what my own preferences and experiences as a player and GM tell me, whereas you try to "prove" your position and "disprove" mine, which is futile. I don't play "wrong" D&D just because I play it differently than you like to. Your preference is not the "correct" one by definition. Only now you're overlooking my point for mentioning house rules in the first place, which was that their constant presence in every campaign I know of says something definite about RPGs. House rules are not impossible in soccer, chess or monopoly, but they are fairly rare, because they create doubt about what the rules really are. But there always seem to be house rules in RPG campaigns (that I know of, at least), which tells me that the rules themselves are secondary to the greater purpose of improving the role-playing experience. It also means that the final rules are settled to a large degree by the players and not the designers. Gygax tried to go against this by implying in 1e that those who embraced house rules were not playing AD&D, but something else. The players didn't care though, which left TSR with the choice of either embracing the practice of house rules or else be ignored by the players, who were going to apply them whether TSR liked it or not. AD&D 2e tried to cater to house rules for a reason...

[Force persuade]You don't wan't to report death threats... there are no dead-threats in this thread. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So certain you are... Always with you the thought is to manipulate.. Now report you I shall, don't you think? Also: Lots of Luke-slashing at the moment [sigh] - I see the Revan fanboys are out in force... [the poor deluded foo... oops, cease typing I shall!] :D

No, "Shrunk and shrunker..."

Holding back on levels causes weird problems according to what I read on the Bioware boards a while ago. I suppose not. But since the alternative is to have no say in the creation at all (like autolevel up) it's understandable why it works that way. Technically it makes no sense that you have any say in anyones creation but your own. But it's one of those gameplay tradeoffs. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The real problem is that d20 game balance demands that all the characters are the same level, or else you get some really odd combinations, where one character is far stronger than the others. The reason for that is how d20 assigns power by levels only, so Jolee has got to be the same level as everybody else no matter how silly that is. It would not have been a problem in a skill-based game, since you could just have given him lots of levels in various skills, but not in lightsaber combat. But that distinction is not possible in d20, which leads to has some really idiotic consequences. For example, the PnP rulebook lists Vader at the beginning of RotJ as Fringer 1/Jedi Guardian 11/Sith Lord 6 for a total 18 levels. Very powerful. However, the book also lists Luke a little later than that (end of RotJ) as Fringer 2/Jedi Guardian 7, leaving him as a 9th-level character. Yet we seen in the film how Luke defeats Vader with relative easy, despite Vader having twice as many levels. The chances of that under d20 rules are astronomical, especially when Vader has more Jedi Guardian levels than Luke does... Nope, I don't like d20.

No, I don't think so. You're certainly above level 3 (or at least has xp for that) by the time you get Bastila in the party, and given how much Jolee has experienced, it makes no sense IMHO that you have as much say in his "creation" as you do in Juhani's.

Exile and Nihilus are similar according the masters. "The Sith are a threat, it is true. But the threat they present... it is tied to you in some way. The echo we have felt on the worlds we have walked - we have encountered it only once before, when you stood before us at your trial.We believe that somehow, you are creating this - or that the Sith have learned this technique from you." But the Exile and Nihilus are not identical. The Exile can exist just fine without leeching force from others - he did so for years during his exile, when he thought he had just lost his connection to the force. Nihilus does that have that option - he must drain force from others to sustain himself and continue to exist, since that is the only way he can stave of his own destruction. This unending hunger has also made him far more powerful, though, since while the Exile has been ignoring his own unique skills, Nihilus has had little choice but to let them grow more powerful and dangerous over time. Also, note Kreia's comments on Nihilus: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." {Quietly}"Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts." {Chiding}"Power? Do you think so?{Shakes head}You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

You don't seem to distinguish between power levels dictated by the rules and strength of character. Sure, Revan wasn't so tough in K1, since he had to take several levels as a non-jedi (minimum of 2, but usually it's around 8 or 9), while he was allowed to take jedi levels only up to 20. That doesn't mean he's a weakling, though. You did finish the game with what you had, even though you had less jedi levels than Bastila, Juhani, or Jolee. That he could do that is one reason why Revan is powerful. Another is that he was able to "learn" (which meant redicsover, but he didn't know that at the time) the jedi ways in a few weeks only. He was also able to resist the dark side far better than Bastila - if Revan goes DS in K1, then it's because he chooses to, not because he fails to resist. But a big problem in all this is still the way d20 experience levels translates into power and character growth in the game, which is not always pretty. I mean, just look at the other jedi - they are all supposed to be jedi of many years of training, yet Bastila was only 3rd level, Juhani 6th, and Jolee also 6th when they join the party. Why is young, inexperienced Juhani as experienced by the rules as old Jolee, who has certainly seen and experienced a lot in his time? Simple - because game balance demanded it... No, I don't think it's very satisfying either, but that what's what you're stuck with if you use d20 rules (which is one reason why I dislike them).

Hmmm, should online death-threats be reported to the mods, I wonder...

1. The Exile's "choice" to cut himself off from the force goes right back to some things that Kreia and HK-47 echo throughout the game. Remember HK's comment about Revan "cleaning house" at Malachor V and Kreia's comment about Revan using Malachor as a means by which to convert the jedi to sith. Revan had engineered the confrontation at Malachor V to be so horrible that no jedi could bear it - they would all either die or fall to the dark side, and they all die... except the Exile. When the Mass Shadow Generator was activated, all the jedi died or fell to the dark side, but the Exile realised the danger intuitively and instead of dying or falling to the dark side, he subconsciously cut himself off from the force rather than embrace the fate the Force had fated for him. 2. He's leeching it from the people around him throughout the game - he cut himself off from the force on Malachor V, and he still hasn't reconnected to it. Whether he ever will or did at the end of KotOR2 is something we don't know yet, but which I think we might see in KotOR3. 3. Yes, I think I might actually have been one of the people to propose that. We don't know it, though. All we know is that there must be some sort of connection between the Exile and Nihilus due to their similar powers and due to the masters pointing out that their abilities are the same and that Nihilus has learned his power from the Exile somehow. Hope that helps, but you're right that a lot is left hanging, and not just because of allt he cut content. It seems obvious that KotOR2 was always intended to have a sort of "open" ending that would not be explained entirely until the subsequent KotOR3. Meanwhile we can speculate here.

Kreia: "Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others." You got your answer right there. And what was under that surface is what you get to decide in KotOR1.

People do grow and change. But they dont flip flop from one extreme to the other and back again. Why ? Seems perfectly reasonable given who her father is. How about if she put on Dads armour and tried to take over the Galaxy, thats a bit out of character for her isnt it ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, there were those who called her "Lady Vader" in those books...

So if another writer got their hands on Star Wars and rewrote the characters that would be ok would it ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If he jumps five years into the future, then I would expect the characters to grow and change. They should be recognizable as the characters we knew and any inconsistencies should be explained, but apart from that I would expect it. People change over the course of five years. The way you describe it, it almost makes me think you objected to Han and Leia being married and having children in the Thrawn trilogy five years after RotJ. Or more to the point, Leia had become aware of enough of her force sensitivity to feel the babies growing in her womb. By your logic that is inconsistent or what?

That's just because they cannot bring themselves to believe that Jack is being serious... Must admit that I have trouble with it myself :cool:

The genius of Dracula is that the entire thing is written as diary entries by the various characters. From the very beginning they talk about how they've compared notes, and they can't really believe all that they have written, but just chosen present it as is. It's a very compelling literary trick by Stoker to make his own characters doubt the events of the story just as much or more so than than the reader will. I know everybody's seen the films and nobody's read the book, but I do advice it. Dracula is a classic for a reason, and it's not just because it's a good excuse for gory horror. Heck, Dracula didn't even have fangs until Christopher Lee put them on. Try watching Browning's 1933 version of Dracula with (in my opinion the best Dracula) Bela Lugosi. There are no fangs anywhere.

I don't agree that Hawk invalidates Revan's choice in K1 because she gives him a fixed alignment in her K3 plot. K1 spanned less than one year. Revan left the republic a year after that. Since then four years have passed before we even begin K2. A lot could have happened in that time, which means that Revan could have changed yet again. In my plot I made both Revan and Exile DS. Does that invalidate their choices in K1 and K2 respectively? No, because the Star Forge and Malachor will still be destroyed or not depending on what choices they made at that point. And there are good reasons why they both fell to the dark side. Revan was your character in K1. He was not in K2. Exile was your character in K2, but neither he nor Revan will be in K3 (or so I think). You only get to make choices for them and decide their alignments during the time when you actually play them. Revan was DS before K1 began, whether you liked it or not. Exile used the Mass Shadow Generator and cut himself off from the force, whether you like it or not. Just as it is unreasonable to demand control over these characters before you began playing them, it is similarly unreasonable to demand that they remain static in the alignments you chose for them for posterity after you stopped playing them.

Exactly. Whatever you chose had no meaning. Never really going to know because of the cut content. Thats why death works really well. Because you solve the problems having them around causes. But you also keep intact their purpose for fighting the Sith (whether it be DS or LS). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, that's precisely why there is no problem - all of K2 was scripted toward this outcome. If they were going to kill of Revan and Exile, then there would be no point. They could have just left Revan out of it completely and let Exile end up wherever we wanted him to - it wouldn't have mattered either way, because they would both be killed in time for the next game anyway. The fact that this is not how it turned is the exact reason why the inclusion of Revan and the Exile won't be a problem - they were always meant to be in K3 as far as I can tell, and *that* is why the story was stage to fit a specific outcome. Doesn't mean that there it is irrelevant what you choose - the StarForge does live or die depending on your choices in K1, and Malachor V is destroyed or not depending on your choices in K2. If neither the Star Forge nor Malachor V will be deciding factors in K3, then this is fine and fits the intentions of the devs either way, which I think is what is the case here. Fighting Revan and Exile while needing them to be persuaded to join your side should be in K3 IMHO. It should also be a major part of your quest. This is part of what will make K3 great, I think, so I don't see the downside.

Depends on how you look at it. Dracula is doing what is natural for him, to survive, what is bad about that? Van Helsing antagonizes Dracula because of his faulty belief that Dracula is evil, even though Dracula is only doing what comes natureal to him. Van Helsing is the protagonist here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> On the basis that the protagonist of a story is always the one who goes through dramatic events that changes the character's life, I would disagree with both of you. The protagonist of Dracula (Stoker's novel) is Mina. She's one who ends up being a very different person than she started out as, while neither van Helsing nor Dracula changed their perspectives much and ended up as the characters they began as (except for Dracula being really dead instead of undead...). van Helsing is more like Gandalf in LOTR - he is a powerful and knowledgable helper, but not the protagonist. Dracula is the villain and a device for evil. We don't know, but it doesn't matter - he does evil things, and so he's evil. Besides, I find Dracula to be more effective as a villain if he remains beyond our comprehension (and yes, that means I hated Coppola's flick )

Still set in the same era of Star Wars history. Besides, the paperback collection of the original Tales of the Jedi comic books was actually named "Knights of the Old Republic"... - Hairsplitting R Us...

Over the course of the game I'd say Jolee. I used Bastila until she was captured by Malak, and then I used Juhani instead. At times Mission made it into the group because I needed her skills. The others I didn't use much, unless the game demanded it (like on the Leviathan) or if certain group members were unavailable (like Bastila being banned from the party on Dantooine).

It's not like it's a difficult thing to do if your just writing a story. It's quite another matter when it's part of a game where your choices are supposed to be meaningful. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They were for mine (at least in my own head...), and I think they were in the other two cases as well... Even so, that's still an example of unprofessional writers being able to do it. I think we can expect at least as much from the professional writers, especially given how K2 seemed engineered toward it from its very inception. I mean, Revan goes to face the true Sith no mater what his alignment was in K1, and the Exile ends up following him regardless. That sounds like they were already setting the stage for K3 to me.

She's much the same as Bastila in KOTOR , although much better written of course. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You have a peculiar take on love interests...

Yes, it seems this was asked in the wrong forum. This is the PnP forum, and though we probably all play CRPGs (we're here because of K2, after all, so presumably we all played it...), you'll get much better response in the Computer and Console forum.

Well, I managed to outline a plot for K3 that took the final LS/DS choices in K1 and K2 into account. If I can do it, then certainly professional game designers can, and I dare say that's probably the reason why the LS/DS endings are nowhere nearly as different in K2, as they were in K1.

For totals spoilers on the game, look here - absolutely everything you ever wanted to know (except cheats and mods and so). This si the best guide I've found for the game. For how to influence your teammates (also spoiler), look here - written for the Xbox, but it works just as well for the pc version IMHO (and by the same guy as the above).

Yes, and that's exactly the one thing I ever used him for. I bought him at the droid shop, took him the short distance over to the Sith base, had him open the door, then dropped him from the party immediately before entering and never used him again. Well, I did bring him when I bought HK-47 - there are a few, ahem, humerous responses there that I like. But as a character in the active group? Nope, never. Totally useless. True. Even as useless as G0T0 is, he did make it into the K2 party more often than T3 did in K1... Not to mention that the droids were to be the only ones who could (initially, at least) exit the ship on M4-78. But then that was cut, so... Don't agree there. Mission was one of the characters I used most frequently in K1, particularly when facing areas with lots of mines and enemies. I let her sneak in and disarm all the mines, then brought in the jedi cavalry - CHARGE! :D