Jediphile

Wrong, you are. No KotOR3 for you, the Sith bunny says... " :D

if there is a k3... probabally, hopefully will be, because it will help patch up all those plot holes <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, I think some of those were intentionally left vague in K2, in which case they would not consitute plot holes as much as story building or foreshadowing.

Imagine someone telling you a story, and they filled in the details of yesterday. You keep watching the tv series, and they keep telling you minute details of the past. Now, someone else takes over the tv series, and they decide to create a prequal series. Without regards to what is allready in place, they rewrite the history that was allready established for thirty years. (Star Trek history expands to 40 years.) Star Trek: Enterprise was a really nice series; however, they rewrote a mess of history that has been established for 33 years. Everything you have accepted as Star Trek/Star Wars lore is no longer valid. Everything you came to like about the previous series becomes lost. You spent several year watching your favorite show, or reading you favorite book, and then someone else rewrites everything that you have accepted and loved. How would you the viewer feel? <_< <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd feel terrible. That's precisely the reason why I hated Enterprise (that they went back in time was bad enough, but they also did exactly what I feared - the rewrote the established, and suddenly we had Ferengi and Borg several centuries too early... Sorry, it's OT, but the wounds are still sore...). However, what you describe here is just an example of bad writing. One thing I like in Star Wars is that the writers tend to see canon as a source of inspiration instead of an obstacle. Take Lady Lumiya. She was born on the pages of the Marvels comic books in the early 80s (between Empire and Jedi). After Jedi, she was briefly used as the successor to the Sith legacy after the deaths of Vader and Palpatine, but she slipped into obscurity when the comic book went under... The writers could have left her there, but no - they have revived her and use her as a major villain the new material. That's good use of background - you already have a rich and well-established character who has been there since the movies, so it's better to use that character than to create a new and similar one. She also has long history with Luke that is right there without having to do some pseudo history rewriting/addition.

It's because they're too long - then the code begins to fail. But then you're guilty of exactly what you accuse me of - you look at the rules only through your own eyes. I do too, but I never claimed otherwise, and I did point to what the rules said as well. Soccer is a game with very specific rules. In that sense it is not that different from the chess example you mentioned earlier. But RPGs are different. You cannot let your pawn feign death in chess, because the rules won't allow it. You cannot bring a chair into the penalty field of the opposing team so you can better head the ball into the goal, because the rules do not permit it. RPGs allow you to try absolutely anything you can think of. May not work, but you are allowed to try. Even if the GM tells you your action can never ever succeed, you're still the one who decides whether you will take the action or not, the GM is not. So you're comparing apples and oranges, if you compare RPG rules to the rules of soccer or chess, where the permissible courses of action are determined beforehand. Also, I've never seen a RPG campaign (and I have seen many indeed) that did not include house rules. House rules are a proud tradition of RPGs, especially in D&D, where even the elistist comments of the author did nothing to stop the tradition. So rules are obviously not nearly as fixed in RPGs, as you seem to imply. No, because you can gain rewards and certainly will gain experience in any event. Even if you choose not to face the opposition, while the thief sneaks in and steals the treasure... As pointed out before, there is no predetermined course of action that the players *must* take to succeed. The GM must eventually decide how much experience - but not rewards, since if the players can lay their hands on it, then they can take it whether the GM likes it or not - the players should get. He could punish them for not doing things the way he planned it, but being vindictive in that way is the mark of a very bad GM. Note also that the rules prompt the GM to reward the players for being ingenuitive and finding new ways to overcome their obstacles. That means that if they can avoid fighting and reach their goals in an easier why, then they should be rewarded for good thinking. That's what bonus xps are for, after all. That gives you no basis for your position. You have said I speak only from my own views, but I can point to things in the rules that supports my position, while you cannot... Again, realism, simulation, plausability, whatever you want to call it, amounts to the same thing. Maybe "world consistency", or "world plausability" would be the best terms. And yet again, D&D is not primarly concerned with world consistency. Magical items exist to reward the players, or perhaps to give them an opposition when they're being used by someone else. If they create world consistency at the same time - great, but if they don't - big deal, that isn't what D&D was trying to do in first place. "Magical items are created by some entity with magical powers" is enough world consistency for D&D. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah, I was waiting for the god-argument, where it's implied that everything you can't explain is handled by some higher being. That's the cop-out answer, when you have no answer, but then philosophers have used it througout history, whenever someone pointed to flaws in their line of thoughts (read some philosophy, if you're interested - it's full of that sort of reasoning in many places). So you don't demand that the setting is internally consistent? Okay, so it's okay if you encounter whales in the middle of the desert or meet an elephant on a small 10 square feet plateau on the top of a mountain... That's fine, because there is magic and gods in D&D... It's also okay to have a wizard's tower filled with 500 iron golems, though the wizard would never ever have had the funds to build them all... Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with you. I cannot accept basic stupidity internally in a game setting, because that would mean I cannot use my knowledge of the world logically to my advantage. And that kills my possibility to suspend disbelief, and so my enjoyment of the game.

Yeah, my bad... :"> Didn't notice, and now I can't change it...

I second that or something from the TotJ period. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Isn't that the same?

A big plus. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hanharr - yes. G0T0 - yes. Kreia - no. Kreia is a great character. She may be an annoying, manipulative old hag, but she's still one of them most wonderfully developed characters I've seen in a computer game in a long time.

Well (someone familiar w/ the EU was bound to mention this) Lumiya didn't (don't know who she is? [link]). And she's coming back in the new line of novels and she's rumoured to have resurrected the Sith order. The new comic series that's coming, Legacy, supposedly features that new Sith order. But that doesn't prove anything when it comes to Luke vs Revan. Luke would still win. :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, I think he would. Revan sucks [runs from the angry mob of Revan fanboys...] :ph34r: Anyway, Lumiya is actually an example of what I like in Star Wars. She was born on the pages of Marvel's comic books in the early 80s between Empire and Jedi, but instead of just forgetting her and seeing her as an obstacle, they embrace the character and bring her back with a vengeance. This is where Star Wars sees opportunity in established canon far better than Trek - that they already have a well-established character with a rich background is used as a positive rather than seen as a burden. Funny thing is that Lumiya and Mara Jade actually have pretty similar stories, only one ended up marrying Luke and the other became hellbent on killing him by whatever means necessary. Spooky...

Not Lumiya, though.

Most recent movie? Syriana. Very political, but then I like that. Wasn't really as enlightening as I thought it would have been, though. Or are we talking outside the cinema too? In that case the most recent would be the 3/4 Musketeer movies from the 70s with Michael York and Oliver Reed - still a blast. I recommend them highly

Yep, the "third antagonist" was Karl Urban, whom you've seen as Eomer in LOTR (and as the assassin in the Bourne Supremacy). I actually liked the setting of the Chronicles of Riddick - there were some cool planets to explore. Too bad they were used so horribly by the severely mediocre plot... Still there were a few good one-liners in the script: "Damn it, I hate it when I'm not the bad guys!" "I'm going to kill you with my tea cup..."

I'd like to see that too, but I fear the fact that this is already covered extensively in the EU novels means that we won't be seeing it. After all, EU is canon, even if many fans prefer not accept it as such. The movies could progress and more be made, but if not and we stick with the six we have now, then Anakin/Vader is definitely the central character - it's all about his rise, fall, and eventual redemption and all the consequences that follow from that.

I agree, but I also think that this is precisely the role Vader will have on the tv show. He'll be a dark and foreboding figure of power, and when he turns up, you know it's someone's time to die... That's how Vader (as in Vader, not Anakin) works best dramatically anyway, if you ask me. Well, I actually disagree with you there. Obi-Wan and Yoda have to stay in hiding, or else Tarkin's comment about Obi-Wan being dead and the jedi's fire having burned out will become meaningless. It seemed obvious to me in Ep. IV that Obi-Wan being alive at all was a surprise, and they seemed to be completely unaware that Yoda still existed too. True. What you can do on tv has picked up, though. You can do spectacular space battles now (just see some of the episodes of Battlestar Galactica or the "Dominion War arc" on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine), so maybe it won't be so bad. Either way, I'll wait and see what the premise of the show is before I make up my mind in any way.

Actually, I think that was specific to the Exile, who was after all unique in his ability to create powerful force bonds with others. I don't think the bond between Revan and Bastila was the same, especially since Revan basically uses it to redeem Bastila after she has fallen to the dark side... He was definitely her master in the DS ending of K1. But I digress... Besides, it wasn't your point anyway, so just ignore me - I just like splitting hairs, I guess... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hehehe... I thought they were equals. I must have missed something. Oh well, shoot me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, I guess Bastila was the stronger force user, but I also think she led a rather sheltered and insular life in the jedi order. Listening to her in K1, I get the impression she has some pretty lofty ideas and high opinions of herself (which is later exploited all too easily by Malak, which underscores her flaws). She also seemed to have not entirely realistic expectations of what life is. Note how she begins commanding people about after you "rescue" her on Taris, only to have Carth jump in and lecture her. He shouldn't need to lecture a jedi on such obvious points, which again underscores Bastila's somewhat unreaslitic perceptions and expectations. Not to mention her immaturity. Still, that was in K1. Can't say in K2 - she isn't in there much. Mara Jade on the other hand has led a tough life and faced stark reality at every second through it. While Bastila was somewhat protected by the order, Mara would have been killed in an instant if her perceptions had been as flawed as Bastila's - you don't live long in the Emperor's service if you get things wrong... She was force sensitive, but not a jedi (and never sith) until much later. But she was a tough warrior even before she became a jedi. She'd be able to improvise instantly during a fight, while Bastila would rely heavily on her lightsaber and be at a loss for what to do, if something went wrong...

Die, gungans, die! I may be LS, but I make a special exception for gungans (and perhaps ewoks)... I'm a nice guy otherwise. Honestly! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I like ewoks Let them make fish-soup of gungans <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey, I like ewoks too... Preferably roasted <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yub-Yub! :'( <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah, I see dinner is served... "I see dead ewoks..." You'll excuse me - I'm having a few old friends for dinner...

A few points to clarify... 1. You can gain in DS or LS by the good/evil choices throughout the game and jump back and forth as often as you like. You must be 75% toward one of the extremes to switch to one of the prestige classes at level 15, though. Your final choice that decides whether you play the LS or DS ending is ultimately made when you meet the jedi masters on Dantooine. You can take the DS ending by killing them one by one during that meeting or earlier by killing them as you find them on the various planets. The LS choice is to let them cut you off from the force, which will make Kreia interfere and kill the masters. You get a special power after this encounter. If you chose DS, then you get Force Choke. If you chose LS, then you get Force Enlightment (which lets you activate Speed, Valor, and Armor simultaneously in one ability). 2. I've had several colors, but it shouldn't be a problem to find them. I can't remember if you can make the color crystals yourself, but you can certainly buy several of them on Dantooine. Oh, and I do have a picture... (see below) 3. You create your initial saber only. You can't actually build more (yeah, you should be able to, I agree), but you can find them. I hear you can even cheat yourself to more by using Visas to spawn more, though I've never tried it myself. 4. Jump back and forth between LS and DS as you like. Just be aware that you need to be fairly toward either for the Nihilus/Visas cutscene to trigger and to be able to take prestige classes once you reach level 15. 5. I really don't think your LS/DS ending is decided by anything but what you choose to do at the meeting with the jedi masters on Dantooine.

Yeah... half twi'lek, half zeltron female...

Die, gungans, die! I may be LS, but I make a special exception for gungans (and perhaps ewoks)... I'm a nice guy otherwise. Honestly! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I like ewoks Let them make fish-soup of gungans <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey, I like ewoks too... Preferably roasted

Yes, that's pretty much my take as well. Still, I tend to play anything with a powerful story that grabs my attention, no matter what type of game it is. I played both Star Trek: Armada 1 and 2 for that reason alone. Same with Diablo 1 + 2 - loved the dark story, but didn't like the game system so much, so once I had seen all the movies, me interested plummetted. Same thing with Starcraft btw - play through to see how story turns out, then drop it completely.

Actually, I think that was specific to the Exile, who was after all unique in his ability to create powerful force bonds with others. I don't think the bond between Revan and Bastila was the same, especially since Revan basically uses it to redeem Bastila after she has fallen to the dark side... He was definitely her master in the DS ending of K1. But I digress... Besides, it wasn't your point anyway, so just ignore me - I just like splitting hairs, I guess...

hmmmm, well that does look like it will be quite an undertaking. but, since it focuses entirely on minor characters, it would still leave plenty of room for movies focusing on Vader. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, what would be the point? I mean, of course the tv series is going to focus on minor characters, since we already know that there is not going to be much (or indeed any) character development for Vader until Ep. IV. But that doesn't mean he can turn up ominously and slash a few jedi or other folk, then disappear back into the shadows. Besides, if there is to be a tv-show in that era, then I'd prefer to have no movies set there, since they would likely clash with each other. And what would see Vader do anyway? As I just pointed out, there is no character development for him, so it would be pretty boring... I'd have liked to see him hunt down a few more jedi in Ep. III, but it doesn't seem to have the material to build an entire movie over, let alone several. If there are to be more movies (which I doubt), I'd prefer to see Luke as a jedi master. I think Hamill has the age for too, btw. Lucas originally planned nine movies, but I really doubt we'll ever see Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, since the EU has covered all the areas it would likely take place in by now. I'd actually like a movie version of the "Dark Empire" comic. But it'll never happen, so it doesn't matter...

Actually the tv series seems to be a virtual certainty, if we are to trust Wookieepedia, which I do. And it's apparently set right in the time of the jedi purge between episodes III and IV. So we might see Vader again on tv, I guess.

Well, you can't walk there, and a starship is a starship is a starship... My point was that Gandalf is an assistant. He is never a primal protagonist. He is never the central character of the story. He can be as powerful as he wants to - he's still not the hero of the story, Frodo is. Or if Frodo isn't, then it's Aragorn. It's certainly not Gandalf. That actually underscores the other point, too - Revan could take the Gandalf role (Exile as Aragorn?), while the new pc is in the position of Frodo/Sam. Yes, but the point is still that it was Frodo and Sam who had to go and destroy the ring, not Gandalf or Aragorn or any of the others. If they had not taken that journey, then it wouldn't have mattered what the more powerful characters did - "Even the smallest person can change the course of history..."

A bit of general info on the game, including the planets.

Die, gungans, die! I may be LS, but I make a special exception for gungans (and perhaps ewoks)... I'm a nice guy otherwise. Honestly!