The Athenaeum - Reading updates and Literary Review from the Obsidian Elite (this means you)

[the_dog_days]

The pacing of The Wheel of Time is great if you read all the books back-to-back (even Crossroads of Twilight). If you're just reading one book every so often, they can feel disjointed and bloated.

[Sarex]

The only book/series I ever hated is Robin Hobb's. I read the first trilogy and I was so pissed off at my self for not dropping it after book 1. The main character is so unlikable for me, I was hoping that he would redeem him self by the end of it...

 

 

It was probably the reverse of Jordan losing control- his mid series books bear all the hallmarks of not having a 'proper' editing pass by an external editor, likely because of the success of his previous entries and the desire to get a(s many) book(s as possible) out to market quickly. He's pretty much the reverse Martin in that regard, while Martin needs an external editor to tell him to pull finger and stop tinkering Jordan needed one to stick a big red pen stroke through pages of his writing, or at least ask if it was all necessary.

 

Sanderson did a pretty good job of finishing up WoT, but they're the only books of his I've read.

 

Well his wife was his editor, so that could have been it. I don't know, while I do agree that the books could have been slimmer, I didn't mind slogging through mud to reach the pearls. I agree that Sanderson did a good job, Mat's POV notwithstanding, but the last battle would have been so much more epic had Jordan had the chance to write it. I still haven't come across a book/series that has battles/action scenes as...well...EPIC.

 

You should give Sanderson's Stormlight Archive a read, it's pretty good.

[Hurlshort]

Robin Hobb is my favorite fantasy author. Fitz isn't really the most likeable character, but he does some crazy cool stuff over the 9 or so books that cover his entire life. Still, her Soldier's Son trilogy is even better at making an unlikeable character that I want to know the full story behind.

 

I loved David Gemmel books back in the day too.

[JFSOCC]

The only book/series I ever hated is Robin Hobb's. I read the first trilogy and I was so pissed off at my self for not dropping it after book 1. The main character is so unlikable for me, I was hoping that he would redeem him self by the end of it...

 

I read the first trilogy as a teenager, so that will have skewed my view as it was pretty much my introduction to fantasy fiction that didn't accompany a MTG pack.

 

 

Robin Hobb is my favorite fantasy author. Fitz isn't really the most likeable character, but he does some crazy cool stuff over the 9 or so books that cover his entire life. Still, her Soldier's Son trilogy is even better at making an unlikeable character that I want to know the full story behind.

 

I loved David Gemmel books back in the day too.

I finished Fitz arc early this year and I was pleased to see it bookended, but I've come done somewhat from my love for the series. The Bingtown trader books I couldn't get through and I really tried. The Soldier son trilogy I finished but didn't like so much, the ending was too neat. the whole time you're set up to expect a bad ending and then at the end it all falls into place a little too nicely.

[Zoraptor]

The only book/series I ever hated is Robin Hobb's. I read the first trilogy and I was so pissed off at my self for not dropping it after book 1. The main character is so unlikable for me, I was hoping that he would redeem him self by the end of it...

 

 

It was probably the reverse of Jordan losing control- his mid series books bear all the hallmarks of not having a 'proper' editing pass by an external editor, likely because of the success of his previous entries and the desire to get a(s many) book(s as possible) out to market quickly. He's pretty much the reverse Martin in that regard, while Martin needs an external editor to tell him to pull finger and stop tinkering Jordan needed one to stick a big red pen stroke through pages of his writing, or at least ask if it was all necessary.

 

Sanderson did a pretty good job of finishing up WoT, but they're the only books of his I've read.

 

..but the last battle would have been so much more epic had Jordan had the chance to write it. I still haven't come across a book/series that has battles/action scenes as...well...EPIC.

 

Yeah, you could tell that Jordan was ex military and had experience with actual war. I give him a lot of credit for having incredibly complex writing/ narratives but also some of the most consistently plotted writing, there was just far too little plot progression in the middle stages for my tastes. But, in general, if he put the gun on the mantel said gun got used, and you could look back and see exactly how it was set up earlier and makes perfect sense later. Rand watching cavalry manoeuvres which turn out to be for use with Gates is probably the one that sticks most immediately in my mind because it's exactly what logically should be done with magic teleportation + conventional warfare, but you still have to think about it and set it up as the author.

 

You should give Sanderson's Stormlight Archive a read, it's pretty good.

 

 

I'll keep an eye out.

[Sarex]

I read the first trilogy as a teenager, so that will have skewed my view as it was pretty much my introduction to fantasy fiction that didn't accompany a MTG pack.

 

For me it was Wheel of Time.

 

To her credit she did mange to get a strong emotion out of me and the writing is not bad, but the protagonist was unredimable for me by the end of it.

 

The only protagonist that was worse was in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, that book I simply dropped.

 

 

Yeah, you could tell that Jordan was ex military and had experience with actual war. I give him a lot of credit for having incredibly complex writing/ narratives but also some of the most consistently plotted writing, there was just far too little plot progression in the middle stages for my tastes. But, in general, if he put the gun on the mantel said gun got used, and you could look back and see exactly how it was set up earlier and makes perfect sense later. Rand watching cavalry manoeuvres which turn out to be for use with Gates is probably the one that sticks most immediately in my mind because it's exactly what logically should be done with magic teleportation + conventional warfare, but you still have to think about it and set it up as the author.

 

Dumai Wells battle is the most famous scene, but now that you mention gates, a scene that always gave me goose bumps is when he lost control of the power to Lews Therin and killed a Trolloc army by himself with Death Gates and Fire Blossoms.

 

I wonder if we will ever see it translated to another media. I know that there was talk about Amazon doing a TV show, but I still think animation would be a much better media for it.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Sarex

[Guard Dog]

That would be a massive undertaking. Even cutting out half of the material there is still a lot there to cover. I always thought WoT started very much like a RPG. A small story with small characters that grew into a big story with the three small character growing into the people who saved the world. ASoIaF you need to get a history lesson to understand the context of what was happening in the present tense. I liked that but I know it turned a lot of people off. The feeling that on page one you had a lot of catching up to do.

 

Let me get some opinions here. If you have read Dracula what did you think of Stoker's narrative device, presenting the story in the form of letters and journal entries? I was a little put off by it at first but the more I read the more I appreciated it. I don't think anyone else has done that. 

[Raithe]

 

 

I wonder if we will ever see it translated to another media. I know that there was talk about Amazon doing a TV show, but I still think animation would be a much better media for it.

 

 

Amazon is still proceeding with the tv adaption. The main screenwriter they have working on it keeps tweeting pictures of the scripts as he's making progress. The other week one of the things that came up was commentary on the difficulty on casting the various elements of WoT with specific ethnic groups so it's not all some blended mass, that the Sheinarans will be different from the Domani who will be different from the Andorans who will be different from the....

 

I guess we'll have to see how it all turns out in the end...

[JFSOCC]

The only protagonist that was worse was in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, that book I simply dropped.

Me too. Protagonist proceeds to rape the first person he finds in a new world, then a few pages later, horrible Vogon poetry.

Edited September 26, 2018 by JFSOCC

[Sarex]

Let me get some opinions here. If you have read Dracula what did you think of Stoker's narrative device, presenting the story in the form of letters and journal entries? I was a little put off by it at first but the more I read the more I appreciated it. I don't think anyone else has done that. 

 

I disliked it and dropped it a third of a way through. Maybe I'll give it a shot another time.

 

 

Me too. Protagonist proceeds to rape the first person he finds in a new world, then a few pages later, horrible Vogon poetry.

 

It's a horrible affair, as far as I hear she comes in to the story in the later books and he doesn't really redeem himself. Can't remember if he got her pregnant or not, but I know I was even gladder for having dropped it.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Sarex

[Raithe]

I first tried getting to grips with reading Dracula when I was about 8. The entries about Harker's descent into madness freaked me right out and I couldn't get past that. Took a couple more years before I was able to read the whole thing.

[majestic]

ASoIaF you need to get a history lesson to understand the context of what was happening in the present tense. I liked that but I know it turned a lot of people off. The feeling that on page one you had a lot of catching up to do.

 

Have you ever tried Malazan Book of the Fallen?

[Zoraptor]

Me too. Protagonist proceeds to rape the first person he finds in a new world, then a few pages later, horrible Vogon poetry.

 

It's a horrible affair, as far as I hear she comes in to the story in the later books and he doesn't really redeem himself. Can't remember if he got her pregnant or not, but I know I was even gladder for having dropped it.

 

 

Of course she got pregnant. He also got his daughter indirectly killed in the 2nd book, and the woman he raped died saving his life in the 3rd book. He does get substantial character growth and ends up saving the world twice though, so there is that.

 

I really liked the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant because he's pretty much exactly what you'd actually get dropping a random(ish) person into a fantasy land- imagine the average xbox kiddie being dropped into one, they'd make Xue from Outcast look saintly- more so when they're obligated to be constantly under control in the real world and think they're hallucinating. It's also a series very much built on allegory, and from that sense the rape was narratively essential as a parallel. The prose though certainly crosses well into over stylised territory fairly frequently.

 

It is kind of funny though, because nowadays a lot of people go far beyond tolerating a(n initially) villain protagonist and actively sympathise with the Walter Whites and Tony Sopranos.

[Sarex]

I really liked the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant because he's pretty much exactly what you'd actually get dropping a random(ish) person into a fantasy land- imagine the average xbox kiddie being dropped into one, they'd make Xue from Outcast look saintly- more so when they're obligated to be constantly under control in the real world and think they're hallucinating. It's also a series very much built on allegory, and from that sense the rape was narratively essential as a parallel. The prose though certainly crosses well into over stylised territory fairly frequently.

 

It is kind of funny though, because nowadays a lot of people go far beyond tolerating a(n initially) villain protagonist and actively sympathise with the Walter Whites and Tony Sopranos.

 

I read the story when I was fairly young, I don't know how I would feel about it now. Although I doubt I will come back to try it again.

 

Funnily enough I never liked either of those and that was when I was actively watching TV. Nowadays I don't like TV altogether.

[kirottu]

The Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula LeGuin is still my favourite fantasy novel. It was one the first books I ever read by myself. I still re-read it every few years. 

[Maedhros]

Sanderson, Lynch, Abercrombie, Rothfuss. I've read most of their books up until a couple of years ago, but I think that's actually what turned me away from fantasy fiction. They're all talented in their own way, but I feel they lack the "gravitas" of the best writers in the genre. In a way they remind me of the Marvel films, they're good fun to watch, offer cheap laughs but not much beyond that. Of course, you can also get too much "gravitas", like the Malazan series where everything has to be meaningful and every character has profound reflections on the world or themselves.

 

A fantasy writer I really like is Guy Gavriel Kay. I always try to buy his newest novels. GRRM is great, but frustratingly slow and wrote himself into a corner. Other than that, Tolkien is still the Grandmaster.

[Guard Dog]

 

ASoIaF you need to get a history lesson to understand the context of what was happening in the present tense. I liked that but I know it turned a lot of people off. The feeling that on page one you had a lot of catching up to do.

 

Have you ever tried Malazan Book of the Fallen?

 

I read the first one, Gardens of the Moon I think. I didn't like it. It's a mess. A book of subplots with no real central story. I've heard it gets better as it goes but it really wasn't my thing. 

[SonicMage117]

 

One to contemplate...

 

*pic snip*

Spiderman and a lot of other Marvel superheroes say: "Hi."

 

Just to make things absolutely clear I think the guy is full of ****. He thinks because he likes certain kind of fantasy it makes him superior to other guys who like different kind of fantasy. It's a **** statement on its own even if his timeline wasn't wrong. Marvel guys didn't invent someone suddenly getting superpowers. That kind of fantasy has always been around.

I agree but DC Comics is far ahead of the rest.

 

CW and DC Comics already included Bisexual, Homosexual heroes in their shows/movies (Marvel hasn't, someone correct me if I'm wrong, if Marvel has, I'd like to see it for comparison reasons and ethical studies) and DC toted this past SDCC that Supergirl (tv show with beautiful Melissa Beenmoist) will be featuring the first transgender hero. LGBT support seems to be a crucial and integral part to them.

 

To add to that, DC has always been ahead of Marvel in the agenda of inclusion of all nationality's being equally spread across and throughout script but everyone sees Marvel's Black Panther and Spider-Man: Homecoming as the leading participate for whatever reason.

 

We see now, superhero shows and movies striving to be more like Star Trek than Staw Wars in terms of political correctness and inclusion + ticket to deiversity and embracing of the modern culture.

[Tale]

I finally finished Welcome to Nightvale. Very fun and silly book. Now I'm back to my weeb crap with Konosuba 6. When I'm done with that, I'll probably be reading Cormac McCarthy's the Road as inspiration for my current writing project.

[Guard Dog]

I finally finished Welcome to Nightvale. Very fun and silly book. Now I'm back to my weeb crap with Konosuba 6. When I'm done with that, I'll probably be reading Cormac McCarthy's the Road as inspiration for my current writing project.

I'm a big fan of McCarthy. The Road was his second best work.

[Raithe]

How many of you have tried reading the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander?   Disney based on animated film on The Black Cauldron back in the 80's... 

 

Sure, it followed a few of the tropes of the high fantasy genre, but it based itself more on Welsh mythology rather than pure Tolkien. I always felt it was a very good look at that one persons growth and journey from childhood to adult responsibility as told in a fantasy series.

[Hurlshort]

I read everything Lloyd Alexander growing up. Always preferred him to CS Lewis. Black Cauldron was also the first game I fell in love with. I played the game first, then read the books.

[JFSOCC]

I finally finished Welcome to Nightvale. Very fun and silly book. Now I'm back to my weeb crap with Konosuba 6. When I'm done with that, I'll probably be reading Cormac McCarthy's the Road as inspiration for my current writing project.

I read welcome to nightvale, ironically because patrick rothfuss recommended it on his blog. I thought it was OK, but I feel I missed out on some in-jokes because I don't follow the podcast.

[injurai]

I'm reading Dune at the moment and really loving it. Not sure if I'll continue afterwards or not... part of me thinks not, but I see some people really love the later books. I've been warned not to read past 6 (Frank's last books), and that 4 is a better stopping point since 5&6 are an unfinished arc. Then some people argue just 1&2, 1-3, or stop after the 4th.

 

The thing about Paul being a mary sue, it's really more about perception because every fiber of his being has been prepared to fill a very particular role. He's also not entirely without flaw and he's not exactly someone you'd want to step into the shoes of.

[the_dog_days]

How many of you have tried reading the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander?   Disney based on animated film on The Black Cauldron back in the 80's... 

 

Sure, it followed a few of the tropes of the high fantasy genre, but it based itself more on Welsh mythology rather than pure Tolkien. I always felt it was a very good look at that one persons growth and journey from childhood to adult responsibility as told in a fantasy series.

 

Awesome series.