rogues do not suck

[Gromnir]

am admitted surprised by the admission, but after having played through the beta yet again at veteran difficulty with a vanilla human rogue and a non-optimized party o' deadfire companion analogs, am confident 'bout concluding rogues do not suck... in fact, they are pretty darn effective. 

 

our testing rogue were purposeful designed for rp instead o' exploitation o' the rules.  as such, we created a human rogue with the deadfire culture and raider background focusing on mechanics and stealth skills.  weapon proficiencies were pistols, belaying pins (clubs) and cutlass (sabre) to maximize pirate cliché.  no min-max o' attributes: m 15, c9, d 15, p15, i 10, r 14. had the following abilities at level 6: escape, debilitating strike, backstab, dirty fighting, two weapon style, smoke veil, and finishing blow.   

 

the pirate rogue were part o' a similar non-optimized party meant to mimic deadfire companions.  had a human tank fighter (edér) a nature godlike herald (pallegina) a human priestess o' eothas (xoti) and a wood elf wizard (aloth). no min-max attribute scores. only subclass options were xoti's necessary deity choice and our herald having kind wayfarer as part o' her herald kit, 'cause chances are she will be kind wayfarer in most o' our deadfire runs.  we clear weren't playing with a party o' optimized superheroes, eh?

 

we did numerous runs with the bb mercs previous to beta 4 and were not impressed with the single-class rogue. too limited.  however, the additional talents make a big difference in overall  beta 4 rogue efficacy as am now having a nice balance o' defensive and offensive talents.  as such, we were the clear winner o' our party's damage and kill totals and we only died once, but the death were anomalous and kinda misleading as it were during the blight battle which is part o' the current titan encounter-- we twice misjudged the radius o' a scirocco.

 

sure, the rogue woulda' been more potent with better weapon choices and if we had replaced mechanics with alchemy or somesuch, and am admitted disconcerted by how little use we got for any armour save for the heaviest offerings, so we ran in clothes rather than armour, nevertheless, we didn't do anything particular quirky and we still chunked most foes with startling quickness.  outfitted with a combo o' pistols, clubs and sabres, we had basic damage types covered, and the modal for clubs were particular useful in a few battles as it helped soften up the will defense o' a few tougher foes... though freighted affliction seems to be bugged at the moment.  

 

regardless, have seen many complaints 'bout rogues other than assassin/_______ builds.  however, having actual played through the recent beta with a vanilla rogue and a mediocre party, we can say with confidence that on difficulties less than potd, the rogue is currently a potent dps machine. the class doesn't need a general power up and it sure don't deserve the general criticism it is garnering from more than a few folks.  

 

...

 

in fact, if we we hadn't decided to make our first deadfire character either a contemplative or templar, we would likely choose a vanilla rogue.  am not a big fan o' rogues, but our buccaneer were seeming ideal suited for deadfire, both in terms o' gameplay contribution and role play value.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the hold-shift bug am experiencing is more than a little annoying as am only able to get a small portion o' combat feedback.  

[SonicMage117]

Indeed.

[Mack]

...our testing rogue were purposeful designed...

 

...we did numerous runs...

 

... our buccaneer were seeming ideal...

 

 

In my head, Gromnir is the director of a lavishly funded lab of lovably eccentric roleplaying gamers, and nobody will convince me otherwise

Edited April 9, 2018 by Mack

[Messier-31]

As a rogue character I salute You.

[ManifestedISO]

not greedy just curious how it's possible to measure twice and cut once on Veteran against developer-acknowledged mistakenly over-powered Greater Blights with a milktoast sneak-thief ...

 

we failed multiple times with a max Party of Five led by a shapeshifting shock druid

[Aramintai]

I wish I could agree with that, op, but after seeing what other classes and rogue multiclass are able to do I simply can't. Everything is relative. And right now, relative to others single class rogue sucks. Sure, you can play with it and complete the game even, but you won't feel as powerful as you could be.

 

Personally, if nothing changes for single class rogue (my main in POE1, btw) that beefs it up I'm gonna play as fighter/rogue multiclass.

[JerekKruger]

Well I'm glad that that is settled.

[bonarbill]

Agreed, especially the street fighter sub class rogue.  IMO, it's probably one of the most dangerous front line subclasses in the game.  I certainly don't think they need any buffs right now.

Edited April 9, 2018 by bonarbill

[geala]

Sounds good. And who should care for armor as rogue?

 

The most important question however: can you run around barefoot? My pirate rogue has to.

[dunehunter]

Any judgement is based on comparison, when you compare your rogue to your unoptimized figter wizard or support classs like herald, yeah it looks pretty good. But if u compare it with some class or combo for example devoted/shattered pillars and pure monk, it will be far behind.

[Gregorovitch]

Speaking of rogues, this vid demonstrates the power of the Swashbuckler:

 

 

Guy tried this with two or three other classes but hadn a lot more trouble. Intereting little group of vidsl. Eder can be a Swashbuckler. Seems like pretty legit way to go to me.

[Heijoushin]

Hey, I never doubted them. How about a doing a vanilla wizard experiment next to see if they truly suck as much as everyone says?

[Aramintai]

Speaking of rogues, this vid demonstrates the power of the Swashbuckler

Swashbuckler=fighter/rogue multiclass. Multiclass rogues are very good, no doubt. Single class rogue - sucks.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Aramintai

[mrmonocle]

holy slayer is better than swashbuckler.

[dunehunter]

Speaking of rogues, this vid demonstrates the power of the Swashbuckler:

 

 

Guy tried this with two or three other classes but hadn a lot more trouble. Intereting little group of vidsl. Eder can be a Swashbuckler. Seems like pretty legit way to go to me.

 

Sorry but I don't see why that video shows rogue is powerful  

[Bill Gates' Son]

lol, seems like rogue haters are getting triggered

Edited April 9, 2018 by Bill Gates' Son

[Boeroer]

I don't think that people who want to see single class rogues getting buffed qualify as rogue haters.

[Karkarov]

I was planning on making Eder a swashbuckler just because it seems to suit him, also it means I don't need to make room for some other rogue

[Gromnir]

not greedy just curious how it's possible to measure twice and cut once on Veteran against developer-acknowledged mistakenly over-powered Greater Blights with a milktoast sneak-thief ...

 

we failed multiple times with a max Party of Five led by a shapeshifting shock druid

 

answer: cheat.

 

well, not really cheat, but definite cheese.  fight the titan around corner o' ruins near the campsite or in the small ravine just to the south east o' the campsite in the far north west corner o' the map.  the titan is a pushover if fought by his lonesome.  fight the titan firstest w/o the blights.  is cheese, but is the only way we can manage at the moment.  the blights are a bit more complicated, but not overmuch... after a few ugly initial fails-- we face planted three or four times with other parties 'fore we developed a scheme.  "fight in a doorway" is almost always win, no?  well, we do something similar... but the range on scirocco and ill-defined radius is what makes 'em most difficult for Gromnir to circumvent at the moment.  is also no ideal doorways on the map as the narrow ravine we mentioned earlier dog legs a bit so ranged party mates need be closer to the fight than is healthy.  

 

after fight of titan, drag the blights to the "corner" o' the ruins with your tank.  the blights will bunch up behind him/her and attack the tank to the exclusion o' your party.  wish we actual had a shock druid in our party as the blights is weak to lightning, but an empowered fireball dropped on the bunched up blights puts a significant cramp in their style.  also lay a trap o' some sort, though an empowered warding seal from our priest is keen too.  traps work well as blights is bunched and will be in a predictable location.  also, as the duration o' chill fog is nice, we have already dropped a chill fog on the battle location-- will not blind the blights as they is immune, but they will count as flanked, which is nice for our thief.  

 

*shrug*

 

'tween the empowered fireball, empowered warding seal and empowered paralyze from our herald (try bestest to paralyze before fireball and rogue sneak attack) the blights is almost wiped out before the battle actual effective starts.  clean up o' the remaining almost-dead two or three blights is troublesome, but fight 'em at ranged in a large area.  wizard should be able to interrupt a couple scirocco, but chances are the blights get off one or two such before you kill all remaining blights.  however, pull camera back and you can see scirocco, so spread out party so no more than one member initial gets hit, and then run from scirocco aoe.  

 

other than the tank, fight 'em ranged.

 

is not a pretty battle.  am needing to resort to cheese tactics, which is wrong.  even so, have not had a party wipe since we figured out a scheme.

 

 

Any judgement is based on comparison, when you compare your rogue to your unoptimized figter wizard or support classs like herald, yeah it looks pretty good. But if u compare it with some class or combo for example devoted/shattered pillars and pure monk, it will be far behind.

 

which is a good argument that a few such op multiclasses need a nerf, 'cause compared to the actual game challenges o' deadfire on veteran, rogues is powerful indeed.  rogues are not only viable, but is potent.. wickedly potent.  

 

we keep having this discussion. somebody compares casters to a handful o' multiclass combos and decides caster need a generalized buff 'cause they is weak compared to assassin/_______, berserker/________, paladin/_________.  we are told swift inspiration sucks 'cause compared to admitted op intuitive it is weak.  

 

 

is al topsy-turvy in the beta boards mirror universe.

 

so yeah, compared to our recent helwalker/priest o' wael contemplative, the single class rogue we played were less powerful...but not nearly to the degree we expected. compared to a few optimized multiclass combos, we expect most single class builds to lag at least until later portions o' the game.  however, to use obvious op builds as the benchmark to find rogues lacking is bas$ ackwards. 

 

our buccaneer were fun and felt powerful in comparison to the challenges o' deadfire at veteran difficulty.  no doubt the developers see such as a win.  is the way folks in non mirror universe is likely to see things.  compare deadfire rogues to a few op combos and find rogues need an additional power-up makes no sense to us whatsoever as such inevitable is gonna result in a further empowering o' any multiclass which includes rogues.  make problem worse, not better.

 

regardless, for any folks who were discouraged by the anti rogue propaganda, am surprised to find our self as a voice for an alternative pov.  rogues is not suck and they is surprising strong.  and yes, rogues is ideal for a buccaneer role-play run o' deadfire.  is no genuine downside.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps as an aside, the last couple times we did the blight fight, we actual had our wizard use an empowered pull of eora instead o' empowered fireball.  keeping the blights confined is o' prime importance.  also, an initial empowered warding seal from our priest is not counting against the per encounter empowering limit as we cast pre combat-- is a nice freebie.  am not sure if it makes a difference, but our parties is at 7th level when fighting the titan.  am knowing some folks level-up their characters and am not certain how scaling affects the battle, if at all.  

Edited April 9, 2018 by Gromnir

[CottonWolf]

E: Completely misread.

Edited April 9, 2018 by CottonWolf

[mostundesired]

Leaning towards agreeing. Not fully, but leaning. Survivability is still a problem, which I blame entirely on the relative cost of abilities to how useful and/or critical they are.

 

Say I want burst damage at level 7. Sneak up, attack with an ability for big damage and (likely) status effect, that's 1-2 guile. Shadow veil to do it again, that's another 3-4 guile. At best, I'm down to 2 guile. Could possibly burst again, could apply status, could save it for escape if I need it.

 

If that works, great! But my experience with it has been 50/50. Would be fine, except for with every failed attempt I'm doing less damage and spending more time risking death. No big deal, I have a party (presumably), but I'm investing a lot of micromanagement into something that MIGHT work, at the cost of being horrifically less potent for the rest of the fight.

 

Sustained DPS, then? Rely on guile more for defense, focus on flanking. Not terrible, but melee targets like hitting me more than the other guy. Eventually, I run out of escapes, gonna have to risk dying again.

 

Ranged sustained, then? Spending all my guile to MAYBE get sneak attack. Otherwise, just pewing away from a distance. Effective enough, but lacking in that special rogue flavor. Also, enemies might still like me more.

 

Mind you, this assumes classic idea of rogue. Overall, not terrible, but those unreliable-yet-not-quite-gamechanging abilities hurt to the point of urging one to make a character who focuses just on auto attacks even if that excludes actively trying to use the signature sneak attack. Effective. Squishy. Disappointing.

[Gromnir]

after functional finishing the beta on veteran difficulty, our 8th level rogue had inflicted 6547.7 damage while killing 49 enemies and sustained a mere 329 damage.  

 

no ship combat.

 

we did skip a couple encounters such as extra sand blights on poko map, and we ate the mushroom from the plant lady as 'posed to fighting... and we didn't bother with the captain angwhatsits encounter in the far north portion o' the available world map.

 

no wiping out the village for bigger damage/kill totals.

 

no potions.  not even heal potions.

 

*shrug*

 

sustained ranged? is not complicated.  don't need spend guile to get sneak attack bonuses neither as wizards are darn good at adding afflictions... or use explosives.  regardless, rare did we fight an enemy who weren't already afflicted due to our aloth analog's wizardly interference. 

 

the titan encounter we did need cheese, so we died once even though our character record don't show such as we replayed the encounter to "get it right."  were our only survivability fail and as manifested notes, the developers has admitted the encounter is broken.

 

saints?  with two fast weapons, we interrupted 'em into impotence and killed 'em within seconds.

 

yeah, there were a couple battles wherein we needed rely more 'pon our pistols than cutlass and belaying pin, but only a couple.  for the most part we were a melee rogue dual wielding sabres, clubs or a combo o' the two.  

 

beyond the more generalized complaint 'bout armour pointlessness, we will observe how by 8th level we saw the terrible reality o' customization for a single class rogue in the beta 4 world-- there wasn't much from which to choose.  with the additional talents provided, Gromnir were functional running out o' talents we genuine wanted and were kinda deciding which previous overlooked talents were worth taking with our surfeit o' points.  

 

am genuine wondering how many rogue pundits bothered to play a rogue in beta 4?  obsidian telemetry suggest few actual is doing so, yes? oh sure, potd might be a different challenge, but developers has repeated stated the game ain't balanced for potd.  perhaps folks played a rogue in the midst o' a party o' op multiclass built nonsense? 'course am suspecting most folks will actual play the game (at least their first time) with the provided obsidian companions, so why not test beta with similar characters, eh?  

 

with a plausible deadfire party, our non-min-maxed, human, deadfire raider rogue, were a dps dynamo who were able to almost complete mitigate his armourless squishiness. we don't see a need for generalized improvements o' the rogue, particular as doing so will necessarily result in the multiplication o' rogue multiclass combo power. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps other complaint: we didn't get keen pirate clothing 'til late in the beta... and it looks better on female characters anyways.  obsidian must need make certain the cliché pirate garb is available before one makes their way to the poko kohara ruins.  

[Blades of Vanatar]

Thanks for the insights Gromnir. A Very enjoyable read as always. Single class Rogue or one of its subclasses will be my initial choice upon release.

[dunehunter]

6k damage for the entire beta playthrough is...... really low imo.

[InsaneCommander]

This is very interesting. I've been considering not using my Druid for my first Deadfire playthrough and choose a more pirate-like character. A rogue looks like a good alternate choice, so I'm glad to hear that the single class is not bad, although I'd probably prefer a swashbuckler (streetfighter/unbroken).

 

Maybe I could turn my third character into one. She is a priestess/rogue* but she's been gradually rejecting the Skaen cult. Maybe she will lose her powers at the end of PoE, just like some people believe happens with Durance. And she is from Deadfire, despite no evidence of a human royal family that I know.

 

*See this cool Boeroer's build to understand why I already have a "multiclass":

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83225-class-build-schemers-needler-roguelike-skaen-priest/