Resolved to fix Resolve!

[IndiraLightfoot]

if a simple % chance for empower refund ain't deemed sexy enough, along sorta similar lines suggested by wahmann1, am thinking resolve would become much more vital to all classes if there were an encounter delay on empower use which could effective be modified by resolve, though am not immediately seeing a simple and easily understood way to implement.  reason why we hated chanters in poe so much were the largely uncontrollable delay 'tween invocations. is one reason we like the skald so much-- is a way to force a quicker inspiration opportunity. have a countdown clock for empower would be admitted maddening, but would discourage us from dumping resolve. have a built-in delay for empower would help avoid the alpha strike empower extremes as well as making resolve more desirable.  such a scheme would also be less likely to require an alteration to enemy empowers than other resolve suggestions.  

 

if the standard delay for empower use were X seconds following start o' combat, with resolve affecting the rate o' the countdown clock, am seeing how resolve dumpers would be discouraged. sub ten resolve would actual slow the countdown and high resolve would quicken?  folks seem to think casters is current getting the fuzzy end o' the lollipop, so such a scheme would have a tendency to favor casters in the current strength-based deadfire beta as 'posed to weapon users. 

 

resolve empower countdown + refund chance?  dunno if both is necessary. and again, am not certain how to make such a resolve modified countdown work so math is easily understood by players.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

All of this is well argued, but it also makes me realize how convoluted our suggestions and Josh's suggestions are getting. They are rarely simple, elegant and/or straight-forward enough. I'd rather have that choose one more Empower use-idea or something that clear and tangible.

Edited March 1, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Enduin]

For the countdown to Empower idea why not make it a two factor calculation. Start with a baseline of 25 seconds from start of combat at Power Level 1, Resolve 10. 

 

For each point of Resolve under/over 10 you add/subtract from the baseline by a flat .5 seconds and then for each Power Level over 1 you apply a further 5% reduction.

 

So ((25 - RES) x (1-PL%)) = Final Countdown. This way even at 40 RES and PL 9 you'd still have 6 seconds between the start of combat and gaining your first Empower, at baseline 30 it would be 9 seconds. 

 

Heck even at a baseline of 20 seconds there would still be a 3 second countdown with max stats, and so for most players being in the 10-25 range at best for RES most of the time they would be looking at a 12-7.5 seconds for Single Class characters, while Multi Class would be looking at 14-8.75 seconds with the starting baseline of 20. At Baseline 25 it would 15-10.5 for SC and 17.5-12.25 seconds for MC. And at Baseline 30 it would be 18-13.5 for SC and 21-15.75 seconds for MC.

 

What baseline you choose though this setup also helps to give Single Class characters a small, but welcomed, boost.

 

Only real issue I see here is that early days could mean Empower is a lot more rare in combat if you don't have a high RES, which may or may not be a bad thing, as you level and gain PLs you get more powerful and gain faster access to Empower. So in that sense it will clearly reflect that progression helping to further highlight the PL mechanic. But really it all depends on the average length of combat and also how powerful Empower is. If many encounters last over 30 seconds in the early days it won't be a big deal. Might also be worthwhile to have Empower fully replenish your Power Source and maybe provide more than 10 additional PLs to abilities.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Enduin

[Gromnir]

it is indeed the path o' prudence to keep changes as simple and straightforward as possible.  there will be unforeseen, but predictable, consequences for even the most well conceived fix.  we recent noted elsewhere on these boards how many spells, weapons and weapon modals were balanced with the harsh deadfire build #1 in mind, and the softening o' the penetration mechanic led to the emasculation o' a number o' such features, with apparent no effort to rebalance such anytime soon.  major overhauls to attributes will necessarily affect spells and consumables and gear and cutscene interactions. stuff which appeared balance before the overhaul will be broken afterwards.  furthermore, bugs also is drawn to complex the same way flies is to $&%@.  

 

am thinking we need accept how most such suggestions made here and now will, even if adopted, be tempered more than a little. is more thought experiment fodder than anything else, but perhaps something resonates with a developer.  can't hurt save for leaving a handful o' overinvested beta folks a bit disappointed.

 

more important, good suggestions made now, and for the next year or so, is gonna no doubt be considered when making a poe 3.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[dunehunter]

So if we keep a weak enemy from dying in combat, we can refill our empower pool to full every combat and don’t need to rest?

 

@maxquest have u think about this issue ?

[Gromnir]

So if we keep a weak enemy from dying in combat, we can refill our empower pool to full every combat and don’t need to rest?

 

@maxquest have u think about this issue ?

why assume a change to max empowers per rest?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Enduin]

So if we keep a weak enemy from dying in combat, we can refill our empower pool to full every combat and don’t need to rest?

 

@maxquest have u think about this issue ?

Ideally it would balanced so that there is no standing Empower pool that is per rest. It would simply reset at end of every engagement and start over at the start of the next.

 

If they were to keep the current Empower system in some form in addition to a bonus Empower that charges up in combat then that should be a separate resource to prevent that kind of gaming the system. 

 

Simplest way would be to just embed the timer in the current Empower slot, have a background color that slowly fills up the frame and when fully charged changes the color of the Empower star to something else, maybe even pulse a little, and then show the number of Per Rest Empowers with a + sign or something next to it to further denote the Bonus Empower. Then when that Bonus Empower is used the timer resets, the Empower Star returns to standard white yellow color and the counter number stays the same but with no + next to it. That way you can't accidentally use your Per Rest Empower instead of the Bonus Empower.

 

That or limit the number of Per Rest Empowers you can restock to just one per combat and then any additional Empowers you charge up disappear once engagement ends.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Enduin

[Wormerine]

in a hypothetical situation where empower would not be “per-rest” - why have it at all? It’s only role is to echo per-rest mechanic of previous games. Once that element is taken away, I don’t think “empower” has much reason to exist anymore.

[MaxQuest]

So if we keep a weak enemy from dying in combat, we can refill our empower pool to full every combat and don’t need to rest?

 

@maxquest have u think about this issue ?

I did)

 

And see 3 possible approaches to it:

A) Use something similar to Josh's approach. Per-rest empower is persistent, while resolve-based empower are volatile and can be used during this very combat only, such that they won't carry on to the next one. Visually this could be done like that: for example you have 2 per-rest empower charges; and at the start of combat our empower star glows red; if we use one such empower, the star turns gray - meaning we are out of usable charges (since there is a limit of one per-rest charge per encounter); now we generated one "volatile" empower charge from resolve -> and the star turns green, meaning we can use empower again. Number of these volatile charges can be limited at having most 2 at a time. But in any case be lost on combat end.

 

B) Per-rest and generated empower charges are considered same thing and treated in the same way. But you can have at most 1 usable empower charge during combat at a time. Meaning that there are several scenarios possible:

- you use 1 empower at the start of combat. You get another one after 15s (@20RES). And if combat ends without you waisting it - it carries over.

- you use 1 empower at the start of combat. You get another one after 15s (@20RES). You use that one too and combat ends. Basically you have lost one (per-rest) charge.

- you didn't use your starting empower charge. At 15s (@20RES) your empower charge counter is not getting incremented, since it is limited at 1.

- you used your starting empower charge before 15th second. At 15s (@20RES) you get one empower charge and your counter is at 1. You don't use it. At 30s (@20RES) you would get another charge - but don't, since the counter is limited at 1.

 

C) If per-rest empower is ditched -> there is no problem altogether.

Edited March 1, 2018 by MaxQuest

[theBalthazar]

why not a regeneration by kill.

 

Resolve

3 - Kill 27 ennemies to gain +1 empower.

20 - Kill 10 ennemies to gain +1 empower.

 

No rest, only on a count of kill to re-use empower. Or per a count of battle. A good way to avoid to reward resolve and avoid over-rest attitude.

Edited March 1, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MaxQuest]

^ There are a few weak points with empower-per-kill:

- thematic problem: does a character get more.. steadfast on kill?

- mechanic problem: this approach would favor heavy dps'ers and "kill-stealers". Debilitators and supporters would have a harder time with gaining empower charges. And if you place all other members on hold, while letting a 2-MIG control-freak slowly finish the last and weak foes... it gonna feel strange.

- gameplay vs rp problem: a player might want to build a resolved paladin leader, focused on heals and buffs; how does this approach makes investing in RES worthy for him?.

- possible shenanigans: 1). summons (in PoE1 phantoms would summon a shade every 25-30s) 2). enemies with charm/dominate - find a group of spores, let them take control of your summons/figurines/teammates, kill them and repeat.

Edited March 1, 2018 by MaxQuest

[gGeorg]

Requirement of sleep&rest should stay. Alhou heroes, they are still live forms not mechanical robots. eating, getting tired, looking for comfort theese things gives game feeling of real persons. Luxury food, cosy hotel rooms, baths. Remove it you are removing human touch.

 

Regeneration of Empover is nice mechanic, especially from point of view suppress initial spell blast. In the beta it just minor issue but higher level higher mass destruction potential. I would not like to see a game heroes in hide, then cast spells of mass destruction then refill per-encouter spell, repeat until end of game screen. Empower mechanic is probably a last chance narrow that.

 

Some notes:

1. Empower per rest, Empower per encounter (reset on combat ends, limit max number of these to 1 or 2) both should have same effects

2. Empower per rest are available only after first Empover per encounter is used. ---> you need to get AND use Empower per encounter first. e.g. no empower in the combat begining.

3. Mechanic to suppress poison play "start combat, runing around a pillar to get empower" required.

-- an idea: Empower time counter starts by first enemy blood spill by the character.

Edited March 1, 2018 by gGeorg

[JFutral]

 

What I disagree with is the notion that just because our PCs have this that the enemies will, by default, have this as well. I think the only argument that _could_ be made for is other kith, but doesn't _have_to. I'd like to think my hero is special in at least SOME way, not just like any other kith who happened to find some shiny gear along the way.

 

Joe

Strongly disagree. There is a ruleset. game should follow its own rules.

 

 

Except we already have a world where some creatures have abilities and effects PCs don't. Some creatures have resistances and immunities we don't. So the ruleset already has exceptions. That's what adds variety to each encounter. There is no reason to think a low level Xaurip would have empower or Dragon's breath.

 

Joe

Edited March 1, 2018 by JFutral

[Insidous]

 

 

What I disagree with is the notion that just because our PCs have this that the enemies will, by default, have this as well. I think the only argument that _could_ be made for is other kith, but doesn't _have_to. I'd like to think my hero is special in at least SOME way, not just like any other kith who happened to find some shiny gear along the way.

 

Joe

Strongly disagree. There is a ruleset. game should follow its own rules.

 

 

Except we already have a world where some creatures have abilities and effects PCs don't. Some creatures have resistances and immunities we don't. So the ruleset already has exceptions. That's what adds variety to each encounter. There is no reason to think a low level Xaurip would have empower or Dragon's breath.

 

Joe

 

 

Even a little Xaurip can be a hero sometimes!

 

That some creatures have unique features doesn't mean that basic game mechanics like attribute shouldn't apply to them. Also if I debuff the enemy's resolve it should have a reliable effect, the same effect a debuff would have on my characters 

[dunehunter]

 

 

What I disagree with is the notion that just because our PCs have this that the enemies will, by default, have this as well. I think the only argument that _could_ be made for is other kith, but doesn't _have_to. I'd like to think my hero is special in at least SOME way, not just like any other kith who happened to find some shiny gear along the way.

 

Joe

Strongly disagree. There is a ruleset. game should follow its own rules.

 

 

Except we already have a world where some creatures have abilities and effects PCs don't. Some creatures have resistances and immunities we don't. So the ruleset already has exceptions. That's what adds variety to each encounter. There is no reason to think a low level Xaurip would have empower or Dragon's breath.

 

Joe

 

 

A Fury can spiritshift into a Blight form and get electric immune too, some creature has resistance and immunities, that is their race feature, which is also in the ruleset.

[JFutral]

 

A Fury can spiritshift into a Blight form and get electric immune too, some creature has resistance and immunities, that is their race feature, which is also in the ruleset.

 

 

My point exactly. The "ruleset" argument is a red herring. So there is no reason to think whatever abilities and such our PCs have need to automatically apply to enemies, like Empower. Just like not all kith are "Watchers".

 

If all rules apply universally, why does the trap I disarm that one shots my PC, not do the same damage when I set that same trap?

 

Joe

Edited March 1, 2018 by JFutral

[Insidous]

 

My point exactly. The "ruleset" argument is a red herring. So there is no reason to think whatever abilities and such our PCs have need to automatically apply to enemies, like Empower. Just like not all kith are "Watchers".

 

If all rules apply universally, why does the trap I disarm that one shots my PC, not do the same damage when I set that same trap?

 

Joe

 

 

But when empower is tied to resolve it should apply to all creatures that have resolve (literally everyone). Traps have the same effect for characters and creatures too: Both will get an injury.

[Gromnir]

am knowing some folks don't care 'bout balance, but would caution folks who appear to be making suggestions which not only make resolve more appealing, but also empower empower and/or make the characters more powerful.  should be trying to avoid such, no?  find a scheme which would allow multiple empowers per encounter or numerous more powers per rest w/o serious reducing empower efficacy might just mess with game balance.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[JFutral]

 

 

My point exactly. The "ruleset" argument is a red herring. So there is no reason to think whatever abilities and such our PCs have need to automatically apply to enemies, like Empower. Just like not all kith are "Watchers".

 

If all rules apply universally, why does the trap I disarm that one shots my PC, not do the same damage when I set that same trap?

 

Joe

 

 

But when empower is tied to resolve it should apply to all creatures that have resolve (literally everyone). Traps have the same effect for characters and creatures too: Both will get an injury.

 

 

Sort of. I have yet to find a trap that I can set that does the same amount of damage as it is capable of before I disarm it to use for myself. That is just the way PoE works.

 

There is no reason to think that just because our PC have empower tied to resolve that automatically means ALL creatures are capable of empower. Why wouldn't this be, at most, a kith trait? What exactly empower is (it's nature and where the power comes form to begin with, even if resolve has an effect) hasn't really been explained yet.

 

As for the spirit shift example, earlier, when I change into a blight do I automatically shift in stats as well? Does my resolve, etc, change to the default stats of the blight? (Serious question. I don't know the answer. I've never checked. And right now I'm gun shy of druid shifting with the current bug that claim my game.)

 

While this is related, still OT and drifting more so. So this probably the last I'll say on this topic. As for the suggestions. All great, but I think too complicated to really add value to the game. But then I am a simpler is better kind of guy.

 

Joe

[Enduin]

am knowing some folks don't care 'bout balance, but would caution folks who appear to be making suggestions which not only make resolve more appealing, but also empower empower and/or make the characters more powerful.  should be trying to avoid such, no?  find a scheme which would allow multiple empowers per encounter or numerous more powers per rest w/o serious reducing empower efficacy might just mess with game balance.

 

HA! Good Fun!

A good point, but I think this also entirely depends on the approach that is taken. Depending on that Empower could need a boost or a nerf. Right now players will have what 5 or 6 Per-Rest Empowers by end game. If you can balance it so that the average player by end game gets 1-2 Combat Generated Empowers per average encounter and then power gamers who really build a character around RES getting maybe 3 or 4, if they're lucky, that's not a huge difference as right now all it takes is a simple rest to get back to max Empowers. Same for stocking rules, do you put a cap on Combat Generated Empowers or do you just let them accumulate, or even have a weight system so the 2nd takes longer to generate once the 1st is used.

 

Now if they keep some amount of Per-rest Empowers on top of Combat Generated then that would probably into the realm of requiring a nerf and re-balancing of things. Personally I don't want any Per-Rest or stored Empowers. I think the intention is to keep the relative availability the same or lower, while changing how they generate to make them feel more meaningful and thematically tied to combat and the overall combat system which is focused around per-encounter, not per-rest. 

[hilfazer]

Resolve to influence Affliction/debuff duration no, not duration... graze range!

Affliction/debuff graze = half duration.

Restore Might and move magic damage there. But not healing. Multiplicative mod to all damage is plenty good already.

I don't know if buffs can miss. If they can then RES can influence their graze range as well.

Casters have a reason to take it.

 

If it's not possible then affliction/debuff miss->graze chance.

Edited March 2, 2018 by hilfazer

[wahmann1]

 

if a simple % chance for empower refund ain't deemed sexy enough, along sorta similar lines suggested by wahmann1, am thinking resolve would become much more vital to all classes if there were an encounter delay on empower use which could effective be modified by resolve, though am not immediately seeing a simple and easily understood way to implement.  reason why we hated chanters in poe so much were the largely uncontrollable delay 'tween invocations. is one reason we like the skald so much-- is a way to force a quicker inspiration opportunity. have a countdown clock for empower would be admitted maddening, but would discourage us from dumping resolve. have a built-in delay for empower would help avoid the alpha strike empower extremes as well as making resolve more desirable.  such a scheme would also be less likely to require an alteration to enemy empowers than other resolve suggestions.  

 

if the standard delay for empower use were X seconds following start o' combat, with resolve affecting the rate o' the countdown clock, am seeing how resolve dumpers would be discouraged. sub ten resolve would actual slow the countdown and high resolve would quicken?  folks seem to think casters is current getting the fuzzy end o' the lollipop, so such a scheme would have a tendency to favor casters in the current strength-based deadfire beta as 'posed to weapon users. 

 

resolve empower countdown + refund chance?  dunno if both is necessary. and again, am not certain how to make such a resolve modified countdown work so math is easily understood by players.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

All of this is well argued, but it also makes me realize how convoluted our suggestions and Josh's suggestions are getting. They are rarely simple, elegant and/or straight-forward enough. I'd rather have that choose one more Empower use-idea or something that clear and tangible.

 

Good point. The solution should be no more complicated than empower is now. I'm going to make a couple of assumptions:

1) RNG empower isn't really good for players because monsters get them, too (with the exception of alpha attack-from-stealth)

2) Empower is not used to balance classes (it is said empower is better for casters right now, but I am going to assume it doesn't matter if that changes)

 

First, simplify Empower so it only is used when you assign it to a power (not to a character to recover spent slots).

Second, assume it is more like a generalized power source (like discipline) that can do a couple of other things.

Third, when you click on a character portrait, the empower value should be the empower points for that character, starting at 0 and working up to 10 (or some other value) at a rate that depends upon RES.

Fourth, make empower replenish power source as follows:

    Click on empower then power points (e.g., discipline) to convert an empower point to a power point. (Allowing you to replenish, e.g., discipline.)  Alternatively or in addition, just click on empower and then on the power that cannot be used due to insufficient power points and use empower points instead.

    If a power is available because you have sufficient power points, and you have at least 5 empower, click on empower then the power to use at +5 power levels and reduce empower by 5 (or whatever value empower was going to be nerfed to from 10 anyway).  

    Optional (slightly more complex): Click on a power that is currently on cooldown to reduce cooldown (maybe on a second/empower point basis).

 

This will not increase complexity because you always just click empower and then the power (and any that are greyed out or on cooldown can be un-greyed out when you click the empower icon if you have sufficient empower to use them).

 

A little OT, but you could also add an alpha-strike capability selectable by rogues that gives an empower-like effect without empower, such as +5 power level to an attack made from stealth. That way those who are saddened by the nerfing of the alpha strike could compensate.

[Doxy]

Would be nice to hear what OBS thinks of this.

[lunattic]

Alternatively or next to this, could we perhaps add a certain percentage to healing taken per point to constitution (or resolve instead of the duration decrease)? In the case of constitution, that would this second-most dumped stat also more attractive as it would now double as an actual defensive force multiplier instead of being just your max HP. The reason con was dumped so much in pillars 1, next to resilience, is that either of those didn't actively add to your damage dealt/ability duration and only very minimally reduced your damage taken (res, and then only vs 1 specific type of attacks). Having one of those stats buff your amount of healing taken like the survival buff seems more valuable to actual survival than a minor amount of deflection. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by lunattic

[thelee]

After reading the thread I'd like to add a +1 for the idea of reduced affliction time by a certain percentage per point of resilience (with 10 being 0%, I suppose). 

 

For anyone who doesn't follow JE Sawyer's tumblr, he already commented on why he doesn't like the idea of reduced affliction time for resolve: https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/171380084061/one-resolve-suggestion-i-think-you

 

(Sorry if this has already been linked to, haven't read entire thread)

Edited March 5, 2018 by thelee

[lunattic]

 

After reading the thread I'd like to add a +1 for the idea of reduced affliction time by a certain percentage per point of resilience (with 10 being 0%, I suppose). 

 

For anyone who doesn't follow JE Sawyer's tumblr, he already commented on why he doesn't like the idea of reduced affliction time for resolve: https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/171380084061/one-resolve-suggestion-i-think-you

 

(Sorry if this has already been linked to, haven't read entire thread)

 

 

Thanks, I didn't know he had one. That was a nice read. 

 

One other simple idea I had: change resilience to give all defenses +1 per point in addition to +2 will per point. That would make it a better defensive stat that should be universally desirable (basically, the anti-perception). It would be better defensively than the other stats and would fill the role of a damage reduction attritbute that can synergize with constitution in making a character more tanky. Old resilience tried to do this but was underpowered since it only increased deflection. Even if you buffed it to +1 all defenses instead, the other stats all have offensive uses that would probably still make them comparably or more powerful and you can still follow the manthra of each attribute adding + 2 to a non deflection defense, resilience would just be unique in that it slightly increases everything as well.  

 

That aside, I'd personally be ok with the pillars 1 variants of might and resilience. That would be a freepass to dump resilience again to spend on more useful things, which sort of appeals to the power gamer in me. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by lunattic