The Movie Thread Returns

[Bartimaeus]

Man, what changed? When I grew up movies like Terminator 3 or Angelina Jolie's Tomb Raider were 'mediocre blockbusters'. You guys are spoiled.

Pointless action and special effects fatigue, I guess.

[majestic]

Man, what changed? When I grew up movies like Terminator 3 or Angelina Jolie's Tomb Raider were 'mediocre blockbusters'. You guys are spoiled.

 

Comic book / superhero movie saturation* to be honest. I find myself caring less and less for every new MCU film, I even skipped some in the theatre, which I wouldn't have done five years ago. The new Ant Man is definitely going to be one that I'll catch on a stream or home release at some point. Also, there's only so much one can do when your protagonist barely has any flaw and is sometimes quite literally invincible. That's what made Iron Man so interesting. Tony is a flawed character and has no innate powers except banging sluts and being filthy rich.

 

From an objective point of view, as much as that is possible at least, the MCU is very well crafted. There's barely ever anything wrong with direction, sound effects, special effects, music, set design, etc. The worst MCU film so far for me was Iron Man 2, and that one's essentially a 6 or 7/10 movie, which is still above average.

 

*Assuming one likes the genre. Can't blame anyone for not liking superhero films.

 

edit:

 

 

 

Man, what changed? When I grew up movies like Terminator 3 or Angelina Jolie's Tomb Raider were 'mediocre blockbusters'. You guys are spoiled.

Pointless action and special effects fatigue, I guess.

 

 

There's one thing that is definitely going on: Special effects that in the past could have carried a movie are now par for the course. I doubt Avatar would be as much of a hit as it was 10 years ago if it came out now. I saw it several times in the theatre and just because I enjoyed looking at the pretty scenery - certainly not for Sam Worthington's vapid mimicry or the Pocahontas story.

 

PS:

 

Thor: Ragnarök > Black Panther. So there!

Edited April 17, 2018 by majestic

[Malcador]

 

I feel left out by not seeing any of these Marvel movies

Not even Deadpool?

 

Nope, never saw that, wasn't that interested in the trailer no matter how much DMX barking they threw in. Then again I am not a big movie watcher, I did see Logan and GotG,though

[Blarghagh]

 

Man, what changed? When I grew up movies like Terminator 3 or Angelina Jolie's Tomb Raider were 'mediocre blockbusters'. You guys are spoiled.

Comic book / superhero movie saturation* to be honest. I find myself caring less and less for every new MCU film, I even skipped some in the theatre, which I wouldn't have done five years ago.

I never saw all of them in theatres, maybe that's why I'm not sick of them. I mean, my whole point was that I feel screwed over NOT watching one in theatres.

 

Also, I find it hard to imagine and Marvel movie going forward topping Thor: Ragnarok. People who don't love Taika Waititi's ode to Jack Kirby never liked superheroes to begin with.

[Guard Dog]

I finally saw The Last Jedi last night on Blu Ray. I thought it was outstanding. There were a few logic fails in the plot but nothing you can't get past. I guess a lot of people were unhappy with what they did to Luke's character but to tell the truth this movie actually made him into a character for the first time.  It's a classic element of tragedy that by trying to prevent the thing he feared would happen he set that thing he feared in motion. Revenge of the Sith did the same thing in a more ham fisted way. I find story of the failed "chosen one" to be a compelling one. Rather than finding a hero of legend Rey finds a burned out old man living alone away from everyone. A man who realized everything he spent his whole life believing was all BS. Kind of reminds me of someone actually. 

[injurai]

TLJ certainly had some great elements. Mostly related to Rey & Luke and Rey & Kylo. Getting to see new force powers is always compelling.
 
It has some serious faults though.

The new character's that they introduced only acted to undermine the already new main cast, whose time was already being divided amongst the classic cast. As far as I recall, principle filming was done before Carrie passed away, so the way she was written I find no excuse for. She spent most of the film in a comma, and in place we got the travesty of a plot line between Poe & Holdo and subsequently the whole plot-line of Finn & Rose. Oh and to forget to even garnish off the dish, the apotheosis of Rey lifting the boulders was given the shoddiest CGI effort that I've seen since the molten gold from that Hobbit film.
 
Even Rey's plot-line could have been cleaned up a bit, the toying with that dark side cave didn't really go anywhere. Snoke turning out to be a nobody was lame, even though his demise was perfectly executed. That was honestly the sort of scene I was imagining in the 4th film.

 

[Lexx]

Don't remind me of this crap movie. Yes it does have some good elements, but most of the time I really wanted to punch a wall. There are too many stupid scenes which I just can't handwave away. Ugh, this whole "our only big ship fleeing from the other much bigger ship"-thing and "they can't hit us with their weapons, because speed" was already enough for me... This is nothing but a stupid plot armor to justify having two people move to god knows where... and they don't seem to have a problem with speed.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Lexx

[majestic]

I guess a lot of people were unhappy with what they did to Luke's character but to tell the truth this movie actually made him into a character for the first time. 

 

I'd agree if that was the only issue with the movie. I'd still disagree with Rian Johnson's choices for Luke (and so does Mark Hamill) because Luke would never attempt to murder his sleeping nephew but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker. As it is it's just one more piece of the puzzle. It also doesn't help that the movie is an overlong mess.

 

The little things just kept piling up. It also doesn't help that the only good scenes in the film are essentially taken verbatim from an The Empire Strikes Back / Return of the Jedi mashup. Everything that didn't rely on copying what came before fell flat.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Slowest space chase in the history of cinema. Seriously, I'm thinking they're not going to have Finn and Rose go to another planet, pick up some guy, come back and the Rebels haven't been caught. And the First Order's ships / fleet is still crawling after them? Yep, that's what happened.

[Malcador]

They should have never bothered with the chase and just have Finn and Rose start out on a mission and then incidentally run into Dj. The chase is nonsense in universe and just hustles stuff up.

 

I still wish Rey did join Kylo, that would have been great

[Blarghagh]

I'd still disagree with Rian Johnson's choices for Luke (and so does Mark Hamill)

This keeps popping up as gospel when it's not. His only statement was that he said he disagreed (past tense) upon reading the script. This is what followed that statement:

 

 

Now, *I* don't agree with some choices for Luke myself. But that "even Mark Hamill hates it" stuff that keeps popping up online is just blatant lies.

[Sarex]

Anyone seen super troopers 2?

[majestic]

This keeps popping up as gospel when it's not. His only statement was that he said he disagreed (past tense) upon reading the script. This is what followed that statement:

Now, *I* don't agree with some choices for Luke myself. But that "even Mark Hamill hates it" stuff that keeps popping up online is just blatant lies.

 

The original statement and Hamill's reneging on it (and regretting) were half a year apart. Mark Hamill sees The Last Jedi in the theatre and suddenly becomes a fan of the new trilogy after disagreeing on his part in TFA and TLJ, saying he regrets voicing his insecurities in public. While he is of course free to change his opinion after seeing the movie the cynic in me simply assumes that the change of mind was external, not internal.

 

I mean, if he were just another benevolent Jedi training a Padawan we'd have seen it. Because the old hermit shtick is completely original and wasn't at all used in movies like... uhm, The Empire Strikes Back.

Edited April 18, 2018 by majestic

[Lexx]

I don't mind this at all, tbh. In the end it's like what.. a 30 seconds scene vs 3 hours of extended facepalming? I really wish this would have been the only issue.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Lexx

[213374U]

Luke would never attempt to murder his sleeping nephew

And he didn't. He just had the one moment of weakness, of hesitation, which makes him human—unlike a certain other protagonist. ROTJ Luke showed that he can be one angry mofo, all because pops teased him about his sister a little. That's the only part of the movie I actually liked, tbh.

 

Other than that, it's trash, and I'm feeling pretty smug right now that I saw it coming after TFA and avoided giving Disney money.

 

And of course I'm 100% certain that nobody connected to no entertainment giants whatsoever called Mark Hamill and suggested he reconsider his somewhat less-than-rapturous public feelings about these steaming turds. No siree.

[Blarghagh]

Eh, if he'd recanted said statement before the theatrical run? I'd have dismissed it. But he did so way after the premiere, specifically because he said he hated how the internet used his misgivings as a bludgeon. And he didn't even really recant, he mostly just said he understood why the story went this way and that he regretted complaining IN PUBLIC.

 

I'm inclined to trust Hamill, he's usually honest about his experience and has lamented the internet somehow giving him authority before. That, and I agree with his second sentiment that just another benevolent Jedi to go to for training has been done - Yoda never doubted the Force or the Light even once. Adding the fact that I've always found Luke Skywalker to be an incredibly boring character, I feel like they made mostly right choices.

 

As for "just the one moment of weakness", it wasn't even that. It's heavily implied that Snoke "planted" or "triggered" those emotions and visions of Kylo Ren killing everyone, as he'd been doing throughout the entire film.

 

No, my issues with the handling of Luke is that he only had a single scene of being a badass. Han got to shine all through Force Awakens, I feel like Luke got the short end of the stick and his fate was entirely uneccesary. Nothing in the film suggested that his trick was so difficult it would be the end of him - in fact, Kylo and Rey seemed to be projecting themselves (and even the matter around them) to each other over the same distance without any real difficulty.

Edited April 18, 2018 by TrueNeutral

[Guard Dog]

Oh I agree with everyone on the absurdity of the "great space race" and the circumstances of Finn & Rose's little field trip. Poe's "mutiny" also fell flat. But visually it was a pleasure to watch. If you are looking to tight scripting, story & plot you've come to the wrong shop with a star wars movie. Or any sci-fi movie in recent memory except maybe the last bladerunner movie.

 

But since Star Wars is the Skywalker story that part at least worked for me.  And that was the important part. The visual of the sunken X-Wing and Luke throwing the lightsaber off the cliff were perfect. All the things he once found indispensable he's turned his back on. That is compelling IMO. It invests me in his story. I got through seven movies without doing that already. 

 

I don't really like Ren as a character. He is absolutely without any depth. Darth Vader did not set out to become Darth Vader. Ben Solo DID set out to be Kylo Ren. He's evil because he's evil? Nah, that doesn't work.

 

As far as copying Empire Strikes Back this whole new trilogy is a all-but-in-name remake of the original three so that ship had already sailed. And really, pretend you've never seen the original three movies and go back and watch them with the eyes of the educated adult you've grown into since you saw them the first time and you'll realize they were pretty flawed in plot and story as well.

[Amentep]

 

Luke would never attempt to murder his sleeping nephew

And he didn't. He just had the one moment of weakness, of hesitation, which makes him human—unlike a certain other protagonist. ROTJ Luke showed that he can be one angry mofo, all because pops teased him about his sister a little. That's the only part of the movie I actually liked, tbh.

 

 

Impatience, insecurity and a proneness to rash action is pretty much Luke's MO in the original films. He feels left behind by his friends so wants to join the rebellion, he doesn't want to help his family because he wants to get on with his life, he hides that R2 is missing because he knows he'll get blamed so his solution is to search for them himself, he argues he's a better pilot than Han despite never actually piloted a ship in hyperspace, he overlooks Yoda because he isn't "jedi mastery" enough and gets mad when he doesn't get the training he expects, he leaves his training despite being warned not to and loses a hand because he's not trained enough to beat Vader, conceitedly faces off with Jabba assuming because he's a Jedi he'll win and when that fails, has to improvise and not learning from that lesson he does the exact same thing in facing the Emperor.

 

Regardless of how Luke got the vision (Snoke induced or otherwise) that Luke would do something rash AND impatient (jump to the conclusion that killing Ben was the only solution rather than trying to connect with and train him) and that he'd then become insecure over his ability to train anyone again seems pretty in keeping with the character.  Yoda even calls him on it a bit - saying he's always looking for the next horizon is an indicator he never really got past his impatience and rashness.  Not really where I expected the story to go for Luke, but I never felt it didn't fit the character.

 

 

 

I don't really like Ren as a character. He is absolutely without any depth. Darth Vader did not set out to become Darth Vader. Ben Solo DID set out to be Kylo Ren. He's evil because he's evil? Nah, that doesn't work.

 

I think Ben set out to be Kylo, but its a mask (literally) through all of TFA and most of TLJ.  Its something he wears because he felt rejected by his family and pushed into; then he tries to use it to please Snoke by becoming someone he isn't (Vader).  I think the idea in The Last Jedi is that by the end, Ben actually finally has an internal goal of his own rather than doing things as part of a reaction to external events and people.

[Lexx]

I'm just pissy because we had the potential for something really good here. Instead we got... whatever it is we now have. Disney should have tried to break some cliches and risk a bit, imo. You know, like others have said before, why not turn Kylo Ren into the good guy and Ray(?) into the bad one. Stuff like that.

 

Also, is that black guy really the ONLY storm trooper to ever flee the army or what's up with that huge TRAITOR!!1 focus for two movies already.. Come on, how about at least a tiny bit of reality in my space fantasy?

Edited April 18, 2018 by Lexx

[Hurlshort]

The slow motion space chase was silly, but Star Wars has always been pretty silly. 

 

 

 

I actually really like the Kylo and Ren dynamic. There were basically three movies happening in TLJ, and the Luke-Ren-Kylo relationship was easily the most interesting and had the best acting. But really, it's space fantasy. I've said it before, take it way less seriously people.

[majestic]

 

Luke would never attempt to murder his sleeping nephew

And he didn't. He just had the one moment of weakness, of hesitation, which makes him human—unlike a certain other protagonist. ROTJ Luke showed that he can be one angry mofo, all because pops teased him about his sister a little. That's the only part of the movie I actually liked, tbh.

 

Other than that, it's trash, and I'm feeling pretty smug right now that I saw it coming after TFA and avoided giving Disney money.

 

And of course I'm 100% certain that nobody connected to no entertainment giants whatsoever called Mark Hamill and suggested he reconsider his somewhat less-than-rapturous public feelings about these steaming turds. No siree.

 

See, I can understand where it is coming from, I don't really agree with it - sames goes for Amentep's argument. I'm also not suggesting that Luke wouldn't have failed training Ben, or anyone else. He would have. Because failure is a part of life, unless one is a young Jedi hopeful from Jakku. Yoda even calls him out on it.

 

This is the guy who refused to destroy his father, the most evil and reviled man in the galaxy because he was family. He wouldn't contemplate killing Ben in a moment of weakness. Luke would have went directly to confront Snoke and prevent him from corrupting Ben or end his influence over him. Ben could have felt abandoned over this, imagine your master leaving over night without any real explaination. Luke would fail, come back and realize that he just made things worse. Proceed to exile from there.

 

Oh boy, does anyone else feel the Star Wars nerdness level rising?

 

edit: In the Legends books (formerly Expanded Universe) Luke all but ignored the fall of his nephew until such a time it threw the galaxy into another costly civil war. Yeah, I know the EU should not be used to argue the movies but it's really hard to untangle everything.

 

Oh I agree with everyone on the absurdity of the "great space race" and the circumstances of Finn & Rose's little field trip. Poe's "mutiny" also fell flat. But visually it was a pleasure to watch. If you are looking to tight scripting, story & plot you've come to the wrong shop with a star wars movie. Or any sci-fi movie in recent memory except maybe the last bladerunner movie.

 

The originals aren't at all meandering like The Last Jedi is. They do feature a very simple premise and character archetypes but that doesn't mean the narrative can't be tight and compelling and structually the original trilogy are good movies, and TLJ just... isn't.

 

The slow motion space chase was silly, but Star Wars has always been pretty silly. 

 

 

 

I actually really like the Kylo and Ren dynamic. There were basically three movies happening in TLJ, and the Luke-Ren-Kylo relationship was easily the most interesting and had the best acting. But really, it's space fantasy. I've said it before, take it way less seriously people.

 

That's also a part. Star Wars always had a little comic relief but it was used appropriately. It's all over The Last Jedi and falls flat most of the time.

Edited April 18, 2018 by majestic

[Amentep]

IMO, that he didn't go through with it is because he's the guy who wouldn't kill Vader. But we know he did plan to kill Vader once (prior to knowing their relationship, admittedly) and later thought better of it. I don't see why, under pressure and possibly being semi-manipulated by Snoke, Luke - already prone to rashness - couldn't make a rash decision which was stopped by the better part of his self. The part of him that thought it better to try to bring Vader back from the darkside than give up on him.

[Blarghagh]

 

He came really, really close to killing Vader and all he needed was a little bit of verbal "I'll get yer sister next, boy!" - He spent a good minute chopping off hands and bashing in skulls after that. This time he was filled with visions of his family dying and everything he worked for destroyed and all he did was turn on his lightsaber for 3 seconds. He's a better man now than he ever was?

[injurai]

Personally I think Hamill is just a very charitable guy who wants to see the best in everything. I don't think he is as enthralled by the movie as he sometimes comes across, but I also think he doesn't let himself dwell the negatives too hard. He was under contract to promote the film anyways so it makes sense he'd try to gravitate towards positive notes. He also owes so much to the franchise and you can tell in the behavior of the cast that they don't **** where they eat. So my point here is that Rian Johnson's vision isn't really as justified as many of the defender's make it out to be.

 

Also the slow-mo race was way different than other SW silliness, because it was the cornerstone of the really the entire plot. Everything had to be justified in relationship to it. The more I look at it, the more all the writing around it feels contrived. I'm also annoyed how they handled the issue of Rey's parents. Far too many loose threads established in the first film where tied off in the most flippant way. Some of the best parts of TFA that where original, got shelved because Rian Johnson had to shape the film in his vision. JJ really is our only hope.

[213374U]

This is the guy who refused to destroy his father, the most evil and reviled man in the galaxy because he was family. He wouldn't contemplate killing Ben in a moment of weakness. Luke would have went directly to confront Snoke and prevent him from corrupting Ben or end his influence over him. Ben could have felt abandoned over this, imagine your master leaving over night without any real explaination. Luke would fail, come back and realize that he just made things worse. Proceed to exile from there.

I might be misremembering how it's presented, but I don't think at that point it's stated that Luke knows anything about Snoke—he only talks about "darkness growing" in Ben. The Snoke angle seemed more a reflection in hindsight to me. So at the time, Luke had no one to confront but Ben. He goes to his hut to do just that, gets some ominous visions about Padmé dying Death & Destruction, chits a brick, and by the time he can collect himself, Ben already has the excuse he's long been looking for to express his inner edgy teenager.

 

I was amused by Luke's rant about how useless Jedi really are. Straight out of reddit material.

 

 

JJ really is our only hope.