Removing non class specific talents was a bad idea

[Answermancer]

Why give them more generic stuff when they could get actual unique things. That's what I mean about weapon styles, any weapon-using damage dealer clearly has lots of experience with their preferred weapon style, otherwise they wouldn't be any good at their job. So using that as something special to Fighters is weird.

 

So give Fighters stuff that is specialized to their role and class fantasy, emphasize their discipline, good morale, technical skill with many different weapons, and tactical acumen. The things that make them good soldiers, mercenaries, etc.

 

Ideas:

• I still think 1 passive that gives them all the weapon styles (or 2 for 1, Swords and Shield AND One Weapon, Two-hand AND Two-weapon) would better emphasize that they are experts with a lot of knowledge, able to switch styles as the situation demands, rather than the guy who's killed a ton of people with a 2-hander but doesn't know the first thing about a shield.
• When you wield a weapon 1-handed you get +6 accuracy or something right? Give them a talent where they get this bonus for 2-handers as well (because they've trained with many different weapons, bastard swords, etc.)
• Give them stuff to emphasize fighting together with an army, a bonus when near other characters perhaps ("Back to Back"), could be deflection and will (to show they have good morale and won't break, or just good old fashioned damage/Penetration from having someone watching their back and coordinating effectively).
• Maybe Will bonuses in general (again, good morale, won't break).
• Maybe something focused on reach weapons like pikes and polearms, again, the army/guard aspect (extra penetration with them, damage, better engagement attacks, lots of options here). Lots of unexplored possibilities with reach weapons, I think.
• They know about weapons and armor right? Give them a chance to break weapons or armor or parry enemy attacks in particularly effective ways (even if it's just a chance on hit to reduce their damage or accuracy for a while, or to reduce their armor).
• "Clean cuts", their attacks aren't sloppy and violent, they are disciplined, maybe this means they can go from a miss straight to hit, skipping graze entirely. (This is the kind of thing that it would make sense to multi-class for, now you're not just a sloppy barbarian, you're a Fighter/Barbarian, you don't flail wildly you have precision).
• Maybe they have exceptional armor and weapon maintenance. Give them a passive that gives +1 Pen AND +1 Armor, or something else that emphasizes that quality (their weapons are always tip-top shape).
• Passives focused on tactical skill and exploiting enemy opening/weaknesses, not coming up with anything here right now because I'm tired, but I bet I can if I keep thinking about it.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Answermancer

[MortyTheGobbo]

Yeah, now that Obsidian listened to people and reintroduced class-neutral talents in a fashion, they need to keep listening and do something about the classes who used to have those exclusively or semi-exclusively. New passives that make them further specialized in weapons styles would be fine, but not enough. They need proper passive and active abilities that reflect their roles.

[morhilane]

Yeah, now that Obsidian listened to people and reintroduced class-neutral talents in a fashion, they need to keep listening and do something about the classes who used to have those exclusively or semi-exclusively. New passives that make them further specialized in weapons styles would be fine, but not enough. They need proper passive and active abilities that reflect their roles.

The current classes are POE1 classes with already more abilities/passives (minus Priest/Chanter/Wizard). And people are demanding more? You're just level 5! Level 5 on 20... I'm starting to think that making the whole thing visual was a big mistake.

 

I do find it hilarious that now some vocal backers got to make Obsidian dilute some of the classes and now people who actually like the more focused classes are demanding compensation.

 

But just stop it, not only is this going to lead to crazy power creeps with all the stacking (which is already worst than what was in POE1), but in the end there won't be any identity left to the classes and multiclassing is going to be totally pointless unless it is for more power creeps. Classes are just going to use different colors for abilities at this speed.

 

I know plenty of people who do not like POE1 because class identity do not exist in that game and they feels like the class they select made no difference to how they play the character. POE2 was a step in the right direction, everything was focused. But with the latest announcement, we took a step back toward the "class but it's closer to classless with different ability icons" system that POE1 had.

Edited November 22, 2017 by morhilane

[DigitalCrack]

 

Yeah, now that Obsidian listened to people and reintroduced class-neutral talents in a fashion, they need to keep listening and do something about the classes who used to have those exclusively or semi-exclusively. New passives that make them further specialized in weapons styles would be fine, but not enough. They need proper passive and active abilities that reflect their roles.

The current classes are POE1 classes with already more abilities/passives (minus Priest/Chanter/Wizard). And people are demanding more? You're just level 5! Level 5 on 20... I'm starting to think that making the whole thing visual was a big mistake.

 

I do find it hilarious that now some vocal backers got to make Obsidian dilute some of the classes and now people who actually like the more focused classes are demanding compensation.

 

But just stop it, not only is this going to lead to crazy power creeps with all the stacking (which is already worst than what was in POE1), but in the end there won't be any identity left to the classes and multiclassing is going to be totally pointless unless it is for more power creeps. Classes are just going to use different colors for abilities at this speed.

 

I know plenty of people who do not like POE1 because class identity do not exist in that game and they feels like the class they select made no difference to how they play the character. POE2 was a step in the right direction, everything was focused. But with the latest announcement, we took a step back toward the "class but it's closer to classless with different ability icons" system that POE1 had.

In no way would I ever have called PoE1 classless (or even close) in feel or otherwise. To say PoE1 classes all felt the same is a pretty big stretch. That being said Deadfire, even with adding more general proficiencies is still significantly more focused class to class role wise then PoE1. Edited November 22, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[CENIC]

I know plenty of people who do not like POE1 because class identity do not exist in that game and they feels like the class they select made no difference to how they play the character. POE2 was a step in the right direction, everything was focused. But with the latest announcement, we took a step back toward the "class but it's closer to classless with different ability icons" system that POE1 had.

Some people prefer classless.

Those people scored a victory with this update.

It's okay to be upset that the game isn't what you wanted, but I think proponents of classless systems outnumber you by quite a bit.

[DigitalCrack]

 

I know plenty of people who do not like POE1 because class identity do not exist in that game and they feels like the class they select made no difference to how they play the character. POE2 was a step in the right direction, everything was focused. But with the latest announcement, we took a step back toward the "class but it's closer to classless with different ability icons" system that POE1 had.

Some people prefer classless.

Those people scored a victory with this update.

It's okay to be upset that the game isn't what you wanted, but I think proponents of classless systems outnumber you by quite a bit.

People just want a small amount flexibility and letting a wizard get a small bonus to dual wielding melee weapons does not make him play anything like a fighter or mean that Deadfire is now classless. Yes obviously always fine to be dissapointed with changes that dont match your preferrence but there is a little too much hyperbole happening from the rigid class role crowd from such a small change imo.

 

Edit: I am sure there will be plenty more changes to come that will make the rounds on dissapointing various fans. Also I actually like class based more then classless as a side note. Just a supporter of limited flexibility.

Edited November 22, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[morhilane]

 

I know plenty of people who do not like POE1 because class identity do not exist in that game and they feels like the class they select made no difference to how they play the character. POE2 was a step in the right direction, everything was focused. But with the latest announcement, we took a step back toward the "class but it's closer to classless with different ability icons" system that POE1 had.

Some people prefer classless.

Those people scored a victory with this update.

It's okay to be upset that the game isn't what you wanted, but I think proponents of classless systems outnumber you by quite a bit.

 

I personally don't give a **** between classes and classless (outside classless always leading to crazy power creeps). I said that I know people who do and they did not like POE1 because "people who like classless scored a hit" with it. They aren't going to buy POE2 now, while my first impression of the beta with the more restricted classes made them hopeful.

 

I totally believe that POE1, and now POE2 it seems, is a class system that lack class identity. In other word, Josh should do what he really wants to do and remove the classes. Even the POE PnP is going to be classless anyway.

Edited November 22, 2017 by morhilane

[theBalthazar]

Guys.

 

Classless is a lie.

 

I am a great player of Original Sin (first of the name).

 

Original Sin have class. But it is just more subtile. Attribute tends to force your orientation.

 

Without 15+ in the attribute you can't hope to be efficient on your segment.

 

Two attributes + speed is ok with optimization. tree is too much.

 

The player wants an inspiring and logical framework, AND the flexibility to be able to choose.

 

NWN1 and 2 are perfect exemple to that. The number of possible build in this game is incredible. More build than Original Sin, I think, by far. And what ? There are classes ? And yes !... So classes are not limiting.

 

The fact is NWN have a plethora of Feat, Prestige classes + conditionnal bonus to class + general conditionnal bonus + Epic level. (Who remembers of epic divine might and its +21 charisma +21 Strength etc.)

 

So much content and possibilities with storm of zehir... 

Edited November 22, 2017 by theBalthazar

[MaxQuest]

I said that I know people who do and they did not like POE1 because "people who like classless scored a hit" with it.

Kind of weird reason to like/not, buy/not a game.

 

Imho, there can be:

- a good game with classes

- a good game with classless system

- a bad game with classes

- a bad game with classless system

 

So why deprive yourself from the first option? =)

 

As for classes vs classless in general... I want to believe there can be someday a classless system, deep and balanced, where classes (or rather archetypes) are emerging by themselves because of power-building sweet spots. As for which one the player will choose - will depend not on character creation or favorite-of-the-month, but his own preference and playstyle. But until we are there - I'm perfectly fine with having classes.

 

NWN1 and 2 are perfect exemple to that. The number of possible build in this game is incredible. [...]

So much content and possibilities with storm of zehir...

And even more with Kaedrin pack)

Loved the amount of builds you can come up with in NWN2. I liked many things about NWN2... except the Isaac's Greater Missile Storm and AB being king though.

Edited November 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[CENIC]

NWN1 and 2 are perfect exemple to that. The number of possible build in this game is incredible. More build than Original Sin, I think, by far. And what ? There are classes ? And yes !... So classes are not limiting.

Loved the amount of builds you can come up with in NWN2. I liked many things about NWN2... except the Isaac's Greater Missile Storm and AB being king though.

NWN2 is my favorite CRPG of all time.

[DigitalCrack]

I just dont understand how by the current reasoning that class identity has been gutted because of a few general proficiencies being added in. does it literally have to be Wizards can only cast spells, wear robes, and use implements unless they multiclass to even be acceptable as a "defined" role?

Edited November 22, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[mostundesired]

Finally caught up with this thread. I like the suggestion of giving fighters further, different weapon bonuses as a replacement (like turning grazes to misses for sword and shield, adding penetration to two-handed, etc.) But what about other classes? What replaces the Rogue's Deep Pockets? The Ranger's Gunner and Marksman? Mostly asking as a thinking exercise so that devs might consider it if they chance upon it.

[bonarbill]

 

NWN1 and 2 are perfect exemple to that. The number of possible build in this game is incredible. More build than Original Sin, I think, by far. And what ? There are classes ? And yes !... So classes are not limiting.

Loved the amount of builds you can come up with in NWN2. I liked many things about NWN2... except the Isaac's Greater Missile Storm and AB being king though.

NWN2 is my favorite CRPG of all time.

The sheer number of options and flexibility is definitely a reason why.

 

 

That's why I was looking foward to PoE2.  With multiclassing, subclasses, and a lot of skills to choose from, it would make the game as flexible as NWN2 for me.  Glad they're bring general skills back.

Edited November 22, 2017 by bonarbill

[kanisatha]

Yeah, now that Obsidian listened to people and reintroduced class-neutral talents in a fashion, they need to keep listening and do something about the classes who used to have those exclusively or semi-exclusively. New passives that make them further specialized in weapons styles would be fine, but not enough. They need proper passive and active abilities that reflect their roles.

Agreed. But also, in that general talents pool/tree, there need to be talents drawn from classes other than the martial classes, for example spellcasting equivalent talents. If the wizard can now take a sword & board general talent, the fighter should be able to take a healing/buffing general talent.

[Juodas Varnas]

 

Yeah, now that Obsidian listened to people and reintroduced class-neutral talents in a fashion, they need to keep listening and do something about the classes who used to have those exclusively or semi-exclusively. New passives that make them further specialized in weapons styles would be fine, but not enough. They need proper passive and active abilities that reflect their roles.

Agreed. But also, in that general talents pool/tree, there need to be talents drawn from classes other than the martial classes, for example spellcasting equivalent talents. If the wizard can now take a sword & board general talent, the fighter should be able to take a healing/buffing general talent.

 

Self-buffing is already something they have.

 

For healing... Well... How about that Field Triage talent we used to have in PoE 1?

[mostundesired]

Self-buffing is already something they have.

 

 

 

 

 

For healing... Well... How about that Field Triage talent we used to have in PoE 1?

 

 

That was rather sly phrasing you used just now. kanisatha said buffing, not self-buffing. Those aren't quite the same thing. Although, I think buffing the party is a priest and chanter thing, not a wizard thing, but at that point it's just being nitpicky. The point being made was that if other classes can have qualities that were defined as "For the Fighter." If those qualities are now being given to everyone, then it should be that qualities that are "For the Wizard" or "For the Priest" or what have you are available to fighters.

 

Not that I agree with that. I'm much more looking forward to defining "For the Fighter" with more interesting passives, like the ones mentioned prior.

[morhilane]

I just dont understand how by the current reasoning that class identity has been gutted because of a few general proficiencies being added in. does it literally have to be Wizards can only cast spells, wear robes, and use implements unless they multiclass to even be acceptable as a "defined" role?

A Wizard is a spellcaster, not a Battlemage, not an Eldritch Knight. If your Wizard is proficient with martial weapons like a Fighter is without multiclassing, the Wizard identity is now homogenized with the Fighter. It's not a Wizard anymore, it's a martial class that can cast spells.

 

In POE2, people who wanted a Battlemage were supposed to multiclass with a Fighter. Going by this thread, multiclassing was a waste of time and effort form Obsidian. The "my flexibility fans" here don't want to multiclass to make a Battlemage, they want to pick a Wizard and give it Fighter's talents.

 

There is already people asking that Fighters get access to spells because their weapon styles are now "universal", jeez.

 

People here keep on bringing up NWN/NWN2. 3.Xe doesn't allow a Wizards to use martial weapons or armor without them wasting their precious few feats on those proficiencies to not suck with them, losing their casting abilities when wearing armor and their to-hit will never catch up to a martial class even if multiclassed.

 

In POE2, a Wizard can wear all armor types without penalty others don't have, their to-hit with weapons was homogenized with all the other classes. The per-encounter changes turned their spells to just be actives abilities. Their only class identity was "I got more actives than martial classes and can't pick martial talents"...half of that was just removed. Now they just have more actives which will probably be gone soon, because people in this thread keep on asking for more actives for the martial classes.

 

I call that a color-coded class system: all the classes are the same, minus the colors of their actives abilities.

Edited November 22, 2017 by morhilane

[AndreaColombo]

The way casters are right now, you'd better multiclass them with a Fighter regardless if you want them to contribute anything to a fight. Game gets a lot easier the moment you remove casters and only keep a Fighter/Priest for the occasional healing spell or Suppress Affliction.

[DigitalCrack]

 

I just dont understand how by the current reasoning that class identity has been gutted because of a few general proficiencies being added in. does it literally have to be Wizards can only cast spells, wear robes, and use implements unless they multiclass to even be acceptable as a "defined" role?

A Wizard is a spellcaster, not a Battlemage, not an Eldritch Knight. If your Wizard is proficient with martial weapons like a Fighter is without multiclassing, the Wizard identity is now homogenized with the Fighter. It's not a Wizard anymore, it's a martial class that can cast spells.

 

In POE2, people who wanted a Battlemage were supposed to multiclass with a Fighter. Going by this thread, multiclassing was a waste of time and effort form Obsidian. The "my flexibility fans" here don't want to multiclass to make a Battlemage, they want to pick a Wizard and give it Fighter's talents.

 

There is already people asking that Fighters get access to spells because their weapon styles are now "universal", jeez.

 

People here keep on bringing up NWN/NWN2. 3.Xe doesn't allow a Wizards to use martial weapons or armor without them wasting their precious few feats on those proficiencies to not suck with them, losing their casting abilities when wearing armor and their to-hit will never catch up to a martial class even if multiclassed.

 

In POE2, a Wizard can wear all armor types without penalty others don't have, their to-hit with weapons was homogenized with all the other classes. The per-encounter changes turned their spells to just be actives abilities. Their only class identity was "I got more actives than martial classes and can't pick martial talents"...half of that was just removed. Now they just have more actives which will probably be gone soon, because people in this thread keep on asking for more actives for the martial classes.

 

I call that a color-coded class system: all the classes are the same, minus the colors of their actives abilities.

Because a wizard can get a dual wield talent doesnt mean that he can utilize it anywhere close to the level of a pure fighter or even a a multiclass fighter/wizard. fighter is way more melee capable with stances also exclusively gets armored grace allowing him to negate some of the speed penalty and extra weapon specializations and extra style specializations.. but totally a wizard with a dual wield talent basically negates all of that.. Edited November 22, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[Archaven]

The way casters are right now, you'd better multiclass them with a Fighter regardless if you want them to contribute anything to a fight. Game gets a lot easier the moment you remove casters and only keep a Fighter/Priest for the occasional healing spell or Suppress Affliction.

 

If this is true then is really bad. How can be the game designer became so bad at game designing out of a sudden?

[Breckmoney]

 

The way casters are right now, you'd better multiclass them with a Fighter regardless if you want them to contribute anything to a fight. Game gets a lot easier the moment you remove casters and only keep a Fighter/Priest for the occasional healing spell or Suppress Affliction.

If this is true then is really bad. How can be the game designer became so bad at game designing out of a sudden?

This is silly. The game is months away, this is the first week of beta testing. Lots of stuff is broken, unbalanced and unfinished, just like it always is. Many melee classes are currently attacking about 3x faster than they should do to a bug.

[Archaven]

 

 

The way casters are right now, you'd better multiclass them with a Fighter regardless if you want them to contribute anything to a fight. Game gets a lot easier the moment you remove casters and only keep a Fighter/Priest for the occasional healing spell or Suppress Affliction.

If this is true then is really bad. How can be the game designer became so bad at game designing out of a sudden?

This is silly. The game is months away, this is the first week of beta testing. Lots of stuff is broken, unbalanced and unfinished, just like it always is. Many melee classes are currently attacking about 3x faster than they should do to a bug.

 

 

Yeah i agree. I think it's really hard to balance stuff especially with multi-classing. I guess it will take months for them to fine-tune and balance it.

[AndreaColombo]

Agreed. New systems require testing and polishing. Obsidian have a pretty good track record of listening to testers' feedback, as proven recently by Josh's tweets about changes to talents, armor penetration, and even the walk toggle. Let's have some faith in them

Edited November 22, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Gromnir]

The way casters are right now, you'd better multiclass them with a Fighter regardless if you want them to contribute anything to a fight. Game gets a lot easier the moment you remove casters and only keep a Fighter/Priest for the occasional healing spell or Suppress Affliction.

in our opinion, the overall caster gimpage appears to be a function of penetration and not related to the absence o' universal talents. with dire blessing in effect, debuffs from casters at least graze frequent enough to make casters highly useful.  unfortunately, other than lightning bolts with 9 penetration, most non empowered damage spells from casters is shrugged off by all but the most vulnerable o' adversaries.  is a penetration issue.

 

'course your observation is unexpected reasonable in this swamp o' a thread.  is neither reasonable nor rational to demand talents which does not actual improve customization or increase functionality o' a character.  nevertheless, in spite o' the fact you has recognized by implication how weapon damage potential for classes 'cross the board is already effective in the beta, such weapon focused talents is what obsidian is giving... 'cause such is what folks want... and folks cheered the addition o' such talents. for reasons stated already, making such weapon focused talents available will actual reduce customization as they will be no-brainer choices. 

 

none o' this makes sense.

 

we have seen numerous appeals for making weapon and shield talent available so paladins may get the talent as they did in poe.  this need is expressed in spite o' a complete absence o' even the suggestion a deadfire paladin who does not have weapon and shield is particular squishy or ineffective as a tank.  our personal experience having played as a single-class paladin more than a few hours suggests a deadfire paladin tank is highly effective, but we ain't actual seen any folks demanding weapon and shield for their paladins claiming the absence is current a problem requiring a solution. folks want weapon and shield for deadfire paladins 'cause they had it in poe. feel diminished by the absence. is very definition o' entitlement.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps as an aside, tanks are a bit op at the moment.  with non magical brigandine armour and a mundane medium heater shield, we rare need concern our self with paladin or fighter tank survivability. will make a chanter tank and see how it plays, but am thinking the tanks is a bit too resilient at the moment.  

[theBalthazar]

Sometimes when I play to the beta... I think I miss a little too often.

 

I like the idea of "no graze" or graze in option (like what said gromir about dire blessing), so perhaps two options for that :

 

1) Increase Accuracy / Decrease defenses of ennemies.

 

2) Decrease a little the span of "Miss" (better option).

 

It is obvious there is class better than others. (like weapons with accuracy + capable switch in grazes) but overall, I still have this feeling sometimes, even after 30h.

 

------

 

Unrelated to that, Josh gave the reason (which I suspected)

 

of "why this change" for talents.

 

When we read between the lines, there are two reasons :

 

1) To avoid useless talents. (but for me the argument is bad, because when it is class specific, it is not better. Less overall choice for all classes-1 + ...a bad choice for the class in question)

 

2)  True reason (in my opinion) : Allow the player not to spend necessarily on the talents (give more choice and possibilities). Witch give the shared ressources we know in beta.

 

Source :

https://twitter.com/jesawyer

Edited November 22, 2017 by theBalthazar