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Removing non class specific talents was a bad idea


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Hi!

 

While leveling up I get the feeling that the build options - especially for single class characters - are extremely limited compared to PoE1. Because all talents got removed (or translated to abilites) and there are only class specific abilites now. Talents that used to be pickable by every class (Quick Switch for example) are now part of a calss (in this case fighter). I don't understand this decision. Some classes share abilites (like Druid and Monk both can take Bull's Will or Bear's Fortitude), but it's a lot less than before.

 

Then, some of the best and most interesting talents that altered abilites in PoE1 (like Inspiring Radiation, Painful Interdiction and so on) got completely removed. 

 

Now you end up with very similar builds if you are using a single class.

 

Also, this feels like a totally different game. I get a vibe of Tyranny and not that of PoE. Maybe that's just me though.

I have to say after 2 hours of playing/testing I'm a bit disappointed. Maybe this will get better when I get more used to the different looks and stuff, but at the moment I'm not very hyped. At least no crashes or hefty bugs so far. :)   

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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This is what worried me the most. Your points are valid. This game is different and not entirely in a good way. (Though I'm not saying the game is bad, this is just constructive criticism) They trivialized character customizations regardless if you can multi class imo.

 

Too many penalties or restrictions on classes & subclasses that just don't make sense. No general talent pool or crossover abilities. Everything seems tight.

 

They re-invented the wheel with POE 1 enough to seperate then from baldurs gate. (Which I thought they did an awesome job) but now with a sequel aka (baldurs gate 2) type scenario they scraped what seems like the basic core mechanics they developed in POE 1. Why!? If your going to make a sequel or part two or whatever, keep it all the same.

 

These guys have some work to do. But hey it's beta.

Edited by veteran81
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Yea, it feels like the game *wants* you to pick up a second class because of how limited the options are. And why some passive skills are limited to some classes is beyond me. For example, I had do make a rogue\fighter just because weapon styles are now fighter exclusive.

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I do get a feeling that classes are far more specialised. If you want to get utilities of “the other class” you are supposed to multiclass while in PoE some of the overlap existed due to shared talents. Still need to get to combat heavy areas to see how the combat feels.

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When you're right, you're right...  and you're right. 

EDIT:  I have crashed a few times, though.  This beta is in a better state than the first, for sure.  However, I crash here and there.  It seems to freeze if I quit to the main menu.  Which I am doing a great deal trying to make a build I like. 

Edited by Ganrich
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Hi!

 

While leveling up I get the feeling that the build options - especially for single class characters - are extremely limited compared to PoE1. Because all talents got removed (or translated to abilites) and there are only class specific abilites now. Talents that used to be pickable by every class (Quick Switch for example) are now part of a calss (in this case fighter). I don't understand this decision. Some classes share abilites (like Druid and Monk both can take Bull's Will or Bear's Fortitude), but it's a lot less than before.

 

Then, some of the best and most interesting talents that altered abilites in PoE1 (like Inspiring Radiation, Painful Interdiction and so on) got completely removed. 

 

Now you end up with very similar builds if you are using a single class.

 

Also, this feels like a totally different game. I get a vibe of Tyranny and not that of PoE. Maybe that's just me though.

I have to say after 2 hours of playing/testing I'm a bit disappointed. Maybe this will get better when I get more used to the different looks and stuff, but at the moment I'm not very hyped. At least no crashes or hefty bugs so far. :)   

there is poe priest builds Gromnir cannot replicate in poe2 with a single-class priest.  there is poe priest builds which we cannot replicate... period.  however, taken as a whole, is far more poe 2 priest builds we can create than poe priests.  

 

am suspecting the more focused customization avenues for each individual class is intentional.  a few o' us on the boards were concerned 'bout how the sheer number of new customization options being announced for poe2 would result in broken mechanics. with the addition of sub classes and multiclassing, keeping all/most o' the original poe customization options likely would have resulted in a high degree of unpredictability when attempting to balance. 

 

one o' the major mistakes o' pnp games such as d&d is the practical need to produce new material. chess is a complete game. adding a half-dozen new pieces to chess, along with unique moves, would not improve chess.  unfortunate, once you sell a person a chess set, it is pretty much game over for the game seller.  d&d splat books, filled with new spells and feats and prestige classes is one o' the reasons each edition eventual, and inevitably, collapses under its own weight. unforeseen combinations o' spells and items and whatnot make a mockery o' the initial edition mechanics. unfortunate, build a complete d&d or poe or whatever may be a goal o' game design, but is not good business.  need to keep producing new content if you wanna sell new products. 

 

am suspecting josh, in particular, is aware o' the dangers o' game design bloat.  could give folks exact what they expect: more.  more talents. more spells. more weapons. etc.  instead, obsidian showed restraint. overall, when subclass, multi class, and skill options is factored into a game mechanics comparison, poe2 levels 1-9 appear to have more customization options than poe 1-9.  however, folks understandably is surprised to find so many new restrictions as well as new options. is not a typical approach to handling game mechanics o' a successful title.  most obvious thing for developers to do in a sequel is give folks more o' what they enjoyed in the original title.  however, while it may initial seem counter-intuitive, rare does more improve game mechanics. 

 

am looking forward to experimenting with the beta.  have barely scratched the surface, but am intrigued, and moderate relieved, to see how obsidian showed restraint rather than caving to convention when creating mechanics for their sequel.  'course Gromnir also still enjoys a good game o' chess.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I personally don't find it more limited than POE1, although there is more class specialization here. It was clear that when Josh said there was too many bonuses in POE1 and the addition of multiclassing/sub-classes that some stuff had to be moved around or be removed.

 

Although, my point of view might also be influenced by how I never bothered with the general talents outside offensive and the weapon&shield one and I have no issues using the weapon proficiency in Deadfire to get that back (and my weapon&shield character was always a fighter...). I usually stayed with the class talents, which are all pretty much still there for everyone (except Wizard/Chanter/Priest).

 

I do think that the Priest lack something. They got a tiny pool of spells, that gets smaller based on their god and all their features were turned into a spell, even the god's favored weapon (instead of being a passive like in POE1).

 

Wizard have lots of spells to pick from and their sub-class passives are pretty strong, aka base Wizard sucks without passives, the few more spells you get access to doesn't compensate.

 

Chanter have their chant as passive which is kinda weird, especially when I remember Josh saying selection was not limited per level.???

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Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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Personally I miss the option for general talents, it feels like a strange omission. As Gromnir said, it's probably an issue of ability bloat. I also remember plenty of complains about Pillars 1's classes not feeling distinctive enough(though I never really felt that myself) so maybe the idea to tighten up each classes' unique strengths was a motivation. With multi classes(and to an extent subclasses), you have a lot of tools at your disposal to build in many different ways, which of course makes up for some of the loss.

 

My concern is that because there is no general talent pool any more, it won't feel all that great to pick a base class. As of right now, I don't see it. But it's also way too early to tell. I will say that I really hope picking a base class turns out to be just as enjoyable as a multiclass(or even a subclass for that matter), because it really is a shame if it turns out that being a "pure" class is just rendered boring and obsolete by everything else. There's something to be said about wanting a character who is dedicated to a single discipline, but still have variety in the way that is expressed, especially for roleplaying purposes.

 

With all that said, I think the custom titles for each combination of multiclass does help with that last point, because while mechanically you're playing two classes, from a character idea or roleplay perspective, it feels like its own unique thing. We shall just have to see how much diversity we see in build types mechanically as we continue tinkering however.

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a lot of subclasses feel unfinished imo and a lot basically make no difference from the base class. Ranger is a great example of this.

Edit: Impossible to make a melee Ranger without multiclassing and even then you are intentionally disadvantaging yourself by doing so cause nothing from the ranger is even useable in melee...

Edited by DigitalCrack
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Agreed. This is just like the early P1 betas where the fighter was railroaded into a specific role (tank). Bring back the possibility to skew builds within a single class using talents.

we gotta link the class intro threads again? 

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66380-update-81-the-front-line-fighters-and-barbarians/

 

when announced, the community were mighty pleased with the low-maintenance and durable poe fighter.  am not kidding when we yet again observe how karkarov were the sole poster to express concerns 'bout the limited role o' the poe fighter.  pj were barely able to contain his glee at the prospect of playing a low-maintenance and durable fighter.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66380-update-81-the-front-line-fighters-and-barbarians/?p=1461245

 

where poe class mechanics went off the rails is the point at which the developers abandoned the initial class roles.  how to make the fighter better? give fighter dps on par with a poe rogue and the squishy rogue predictable becomes far less appealing. no surprise. any number o' similar design mistakes were made at the point pj identifies. sure, more choice is having obvious appeal in a crpg. less limits is good, no?  no. not always. you want a class-based system, then you is necessarily accepting limits or the classes is just a waste o' developer effort. with so many unique classes being offered by obsidian in poe, 'course the poe class roles were gonna be narrow. nevertheless, the irrational community butthurt, inspite o' earlier enthusiasm for classes which played in the beta exact as they were described, led to multiple classes getting much expanded roles, and those expanded roles marginalized other classes and abilities.

 

'course with deadfire we now got a vast increase in customization options. subclasses and multiclasses offer extreme scope o' character development choice. the reintroduction o' more limited class roles makes the subclass and multiclass options much more vital than they would be if the full range of 3.06 poe customization were also available. why play a rogue/fighter if a single class fighter can achieve same (or superior) results? the deadfire role reduction for many classes makes sense, but am admitting surprise at the courage obsidian has shown in actual implementing such limits in a sequel.

 

regardless, am kinda glad pj brought up an old argument.  illustrative on multiple levels. old posts never die, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Of course you will have more combinations now because of multiclassing. But as I said: single class character development seems to be very limited now. What's the point of introducing multiclassing if you then take away all the other stuff that made character development interesting?

 

It just feels to much streamlined. I had a similar impression when I compared Diablo III (hate it) to Diablo II (loved it) or when looking at Dragon Age Origins and it's following sequels.

 

Some of you might know that I only played PoE for such a long time because the build options where so plentyful and fun - especially once you discovered stuff that might not be intended - like retaliation giving you focus or combining a Island Aumaua with Quick Switch + 4 blunderbusses + Combusting Wounds. Even after several years and 4K+ hours in the game I can come up with something new that works and is fun because you can play around with the general talents, especially the cross class talents. What's Wrath of the Five Suns without Penetrating Shot? What's my two handed Bleak Walker without his Two Handed Style and his Savage Attack? What's my boar druid without Veteran's Recovery? Am I supposed to multiclass just in order to get Two Handed Style? Or Bear's Fortitude?

 

Maybe it's too early, but I already loathe this. Maybe I'm too much emotionally involved with PoE or something...

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I couldn't stop myself from making a multiclass character first, so I haven't felt the pain yet, but I have sort of suspected it.

If there's anyway to bring back at least half of PoE1's global talent build diversity, please do so.

 

I know that Josh feels strongly about no trap builds, etc, and now all interesting builds will most likely be multiclass, so it would be very welcome if this change gets reverted in part.

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Of course you will have more combinations now because of multiclassing. But as I said: single class character development seems to be very limited now. What's the point of introducing multiclassing if you then take away all the other stuff that made character development interesting?

 

It just feels to much streamlined. I had a similar impression when I compared Diablo III (hate it) to Diablo II (loved it) or when looking at Dragon Age Origins and it's following sequels.

 

Some of you might know that I only played PoE for such a long time because the build options where so plentyful and fun - especially once you discovered stuff that might not be intended - like retaliation giving you focus or combining a Island Aumaua with Quick Switch + 4 blunderbusses + Combusting Wounds. Even after several years and 4K+ hours in the game I can come up with something new that works and is fun because you can play around with the general talents, especially the cross class talents. What's Wrath of the Five Suns without Penetrating Shot? What's my two handed Bleak Walker without his Two Handed Style and his Savage Attack? What's my boar druid without Veteran's Recovery? Am I supposed to multiclass just in order to get Two Handed Style? Or Bear's Fortitude?

 

Maybe it's too early, but I already loathe this. Maybe I'm too much emotionally involved with PoE or something...

Obsidian, please listen to this guy. He, alone, has more playtime on the game than your Q&A team, hehe.

No, but seriously, I have enjoyed immensely reading his new builds and strategies and tips on the forums.

Please, make PoE2, just as diverse - I loved that sense of "Life's like a box of chocolate. You never know what you gonna get." I want PoE 2 to be an assorted build collection of creativity and fun for hours, months, decades... 

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Even after several years and 4K+ hours in the game

 

Please, 2k of these hours were spent on loading screens.

The atrocious loading times as your savefile grew...

The horror...

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Hi!

 

While leveling up I get the feeling that the build options - especially for single class characters - are extremely limited compared to PoE1. Because all talents got removed (or translated to abilites) and there are only class specific abilites now. Talents that used to be pickable by every class (Quick Switch for example) are now part of a calss (in this case fighter). I don't understand this decision. Some classes share abilites (like Druid and Monk both can take Bull's Will or Bear's Fortitude), but it's a lot less than before.

 

Then, some of the best and most interesting talents that altered abilites in PoE1 (like Inspiring Radiation, Painful Interdiction and so on) got completely removed. 

 

Now you end up with very similar builds if you are using a single class.

 

Also, this feels like a totally different game. I get a vibe of Tyranny and not that of PoE. Maybe that's just me though.

I have to say after 2 hours of playing/testing I'm a bit disappointed. Maybe this will get better when I get more used to the different looks and stuff, but at the moment I'm not very hyped. At least no crashes or hefty bugs so far. :)   

yeah but before it really didn't matter what class you were very much, you could have the same fighting potentially physically with almost every class.  

Obsidian wrote:
 

​"those scummy backers, we're going to screw them over by giving them their game on the release date. That'll show those bastards!" 

 

 

 Now we know what's going on...

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I do think that the Priest lack something. They got a tiny pool of spells, that gets smaller based on their god and all their features were turned into a spell, even the god's favored weapon (instead of being a passive like in POE1).

Agreed. They indeed seem lacking.

 

To guarantee a spot in the party, a character has to bring something valuable to the table. For PoE1 priest it was:

- big accuracy bonuses: Inspiring Radiance + Devotions for the Faithful

- great defense maluses: Painful Interdiction was really useful in making hard cc landing more reliable

- huge total damage potential: via Shinning Beacon spam

- big offdps impact: via Cleansing Flames, which could skyrocket the damage of Disintegration, Dragon Trashed, Wounding and Beacons even further

 

And now 2 out of these 4 points are gone. As there is no Painful Interdiction, no Inspiring Radiance and Devotions is conflicting with Beacons due to both being rank 4 spells (and there are only 2 spell usages).

 

Btw, can someone list what spells do different priests get?

Am especially interested in:

- if priest of Berath can get: Autumn's Decay, Plague of Insects and Rot Skulls

- if priest of Eothas can get all the Storm spells

- if priest of Wael can get access to Mass Confusion and Call to Slumber

- Skaen priest: numbers on his Sneak Attack, and if does/doesn't scale with power level

 

Chanter have their chant as passive which is kinda weird, especially when I remember Josh saying selection was not limited per level.???

What do you mean by passive? Isn't that just the UI label thing? I thought the chanting menu/system has remained as it was, with phrases being chanted sequentially.

 

Btw, yeah, I remember as well, Josh was indeed mentioning that all phrases will be available for learning from the start. I was wondering at that time what he gonna do with Dragon Trashed.

Edited by MaxQuest
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Boeroer

 

 

I have DL the beta. I opened the Game and analyse a little bit the many changements...

 

And you Boeroer, have detected the primary problem. A big +1 (I wanted to create the same topic !)

 

For me, there is a problem. I understand the new concept : two classes can combine and give the famous few ex "talents". Referent to the concept of the class (blood slaugther = barbarian)

 

BUT the problem is : for single class, there is no choice/limited choice.

 

Single class is a great loser of this game.

 

Like said higher, a pool of general talents was better (Choice, choice, choice in a game !). A the time where ORIGINAL SIN 1/2 tends towards "no class", you lock all the talents distilled to all classes ! Unbelievable !

 

It is not absurd to think a +15 % damage two hand for barbarian. And no : this is for FIGTHER. Yes you can multiclass... But this is limited.

Edited by theBalthazar
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 What's Wrath of the Five Suns without Penetrating Shot? What's my two handed Bleak Walker without his Two Handed Style and his Savage Attack? What's my boar druid without Veteran's Recovery? Am I supposed to multiclass just in order to get Two Handed Style? Or Bear's Fortitude?

 

you are identifying a problem rather than a benefit. so mired in poe synergies and exploits you fail to notice how for every example obsidian exorcised, a few o' which were needing a serious strike from the nerf bat, there is literal dozens of new options available to you. your bleak walker will still be able to get two handed style if he multiclasses with a fighter... and he will also have access to vigorous defense or the devoted subclass benefits or any number o' fighter or fighter subclass abilities in addition to the aforementioned 2h style.  no doubt you can already imagine a few barbarian + bleak walker combos which were never possible in poe. etc. by build 3.06, far too many muchkiny poe builds and exploits existed...a situation made possible by that which you would see deadfire replicate in addition to multi class and subclass options.  

 

the individual classes is now more narrowed and focused?  well sure.  you is simple repeating back to us our recognition (and appreciation) for how the roles o' each single class is indeed more focused than we saw in poe following all the expansion bloat.  obsidian managed to finally reset poe classes so they is back to the place where they made pj exclaim, "now that's the class I want to play." 

 

before poe were released, there were a particular vocal segment o' fans who were doggedly determined to see poe replicate the ie games as much as possible.  developers would explain how it weren't necessarily a positive that an ad&d 2e fighter could not only absorb more damage than thieves, they could dish out far more hurt as well.  those followers o' the cult o' bg2 would respond that bg2 were the bestest game evar and if a feature or mechanic were good enough for bg2, it ought to be in poe.  tedious.  repetitive. every issue devolved predictable in the same fashion. per kill xp. pre-buffing. alignment. fighter dps output. whatever. 

 

so now there is folks as emotional invested in poe as were the bg2 cultists to their shining city 'pon a hill. no surprise. nothing changes.  am recalling the meltdown when bioware announced the bg2 weapon proficiency nerfing.  "what is a fighter without bg-style grandmastery?" "you might as well take fighters out of bg2 as everybody will play a ranger or paladin instead." etc. when developers take toys away, it is never met with applause.  

 

you have more options now than you did two days ago.  sure, you lost more than a few poe options, but deadfire puts you way ahead regarding total customization options... which is the actual danger as 'posed to the genesis post complaint.  the loss o' general talents from the game is far outstripped by the enormity o' new class and subclass combinations, and is pretty much a given with increased options is increased breakage. in fact, is so many options there is little chance we will find all the genuine broken combinations before release, particular as we only got 1/2 of the total deadfire levels and the attendant powhaz available to us

 

as an aside, am gonna agree with the albeit premature assessment of priestly inadequacy coming from multiple posters in this thread.  we need play more to give a fair assessment, but am not enthusiastic 'bout playing a single-class priest at this stage o' our deadfire exploration.  'course to be fair, we were complaining 'bout deadfire priests for the past few months, so the possibility o' confirmation bias is high.  have actual been having fun with a paladin/priest o' eothas. our planned first beta character were gonna be a fighter/priest, but the devoted fighter subclass is current borked so we changed gears. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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as someone said in POE the generic talents made different classes look too similar in combat at times.

However I fear that linking passives with classes only and leaving some classes without any will make multiclassing mandatory if you want your character to feel potent in combat.

 

overall: where's my priest's god weapon talent?????

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