Multiclassing a paladin tank (and party composition in general)

[af_Skum]

Hello all!

 

I'm so hyped for this game and like many others I'm already thinking a lot of my party composition

A lot of thoughts is of course very much based on speculation, but it's still fun to try and cover all the bases you want in the most optimized and/or fun way.

 

My party will be lead by a paladin tank, most likely Pallegina, and my question is what your thoughts are on what class a paladin tank could multiclass into to get the most synergistic effects in terms of damage and fulfilling its role (taking damage, controlling and manipulating the battlefield and being able to aid other characters in need)? Again, I would like to emphasize that there are no rights or wrongs, I'm just interested in your thoughts.

 

Not that it matters much, but I will make my first playthrough on Hard and will occasionally have all characters in my party due to completionist syndrome, but there will still be a core group. Party at the moment:

 

Pallegina - Paladin // Fighter (or Chanter) Primarily a tank role

Serafen - Barbarian // Cipher (DW and guns(mortar?) in second slot, flexible character whose role will change based on the fight)

Aloth/Fessina - Rogue // Wizard (2H, more oriented at melee combat but casting a few non-buff spells)

Tekehu - Druid or Druid // Chanter or Druid // Monk (Jack of all Trades, but will be interesting to see what Watershaper and Stormspeaker is all about)

PC - Priest (High-Dex, High-Int Support, weak defenses, will not want to get hit a lot)

 

Chanter multiclass makes a worse tank but the fire synergy with Palleginas order and Dragon Thrashed is tempting. Also, being a buffbot fits somewhat in the tank role.

 

Reveal your thoughts! :D

[Skaddix]

Unbroken Fighter seems rather obvious. 

[blotter]

For damage and control, Paladin/Cipher (probably Soul Blade) may be the way to go. I had previously wondered whether Flames of Devotion would generate Focus. If the ability still just adds burn damage to a full attack, it might generate increased Focus even if the burn damage itself doesn't apply to its generation since it may still work like it did in Pillars 1: granting an accuracy bonus that'll amount to more damage by virtue of fewer grazes/more crits anyway. Even if FoD itself doesn't facilitate cycling between it and the Soul Blade's Soul Annihilation ability as smoothly as we might like, there's still Sworn Enemy, which increases incoming damage to an enemy that will also apply to standard attacks and thus Focus generation (it may also retain a fairly long duration, even if it doesn't still stick around for the duration of the battle or until the enemy dies as it did in Pillars 1).

 

In Pallegina's case, if she remains a member of the Brotherhood of the Five Suns, her subclass is most likely oriented toward striking anyway: Wrath of the Five Suns is still a burning missile shooting upgrade to Sworn Enemy, and if Vielo Vidorio makes it into the second game, it'll probably increase party attack speed when using FoD like it did before (though I'd expect tweaks to its mechanics in accordance with the power level progression system). Adding Cipher to this obviously expands control options via abilities like Whisper of Treason, Mental Binding, and so forth, while powers like Psychovampiric Shield, Body Attunement, and Borrowed Instinct will boost tanking potential, though whether this will merely compensate for lower average Endurance and possibly lowered average defenses or grant tanking abilities that exceed those of a single-classed paladin remains to be seen. The Cipher multiclass would also provide a few more options to augment companions' combat potential through abilities like Going Between, Tactical Meld, Defensive Mindweb, and Reaping Knives, along with other options that take advantage of coordinated movements/positioning, like Amplified Thrust, Ectopsychic Echo, and Amplified Wave.

 

If Pallegina ends up with the Kind Wayfarers, multiclassing as a Rogue (Street Fighter) may help to compensate for the Wayfarers' lower damage against particular targets since she'll regularly be in the thick of things as the party's tank. While this multiclass choice doesn't add much in terms of options to boost the performance of other allies, the Rogue half of the equation will presumably introduce some good options for weakening enemies. Also, Coordinated Positioning may allow you to take advantage of more opportunities on the battlefield while potentially helping to keep weaker party members out of danger.

 

A Paladin/Skald multiclass might also work fairly well. Beyond the expansion of continuous options for boosting companion performance that a Chanter's Phrases add in general, there are, as mentioned above, a number of Paladin abilities boost Accuracy and thus critical chance, while the power level progression system may allow talents like Critical Focus to scale beyond the limits they had in Pillars 1. This means that the Paladin side of the multiclass may allow the character to more reliably land melee criticals to generate Phrases than most other front-liners (though I'd expect Rogues to do better here), which would, in turn, further boost damage potential indirectly by allowing the character to make use of offensive Invocations more frequently (especially since those are cheaper for Skalds to begin with). 

 

Paladin/Stalker could be an interesting multiclassing choice as well. The bonuses the Paladin and their companion gain to Deflection and Armor Rating are obviously complementary to tanking, and Paladin abilities by their nature provide a wealth of options for making the companion even more formidable while they're both close together. Abilities like Binding Roots and Takedown might help a bit with control options, while Wounding Shot, Stalker's Link, Predator's Sense, and Marked Prey will help to boost damage. If Pallegina's a Kind Wayfarer, then it's possible that her subclass' damage penalty against targets who are vulnerable sneak attack sneak attacks won't carry over to her animal companion at all. Throw in the Merciless Companion talent and that might help balance things out a bit more.

 

Of course, all of this assumes a lot about which abilities will carry over from Pillars 1 and how they'll work in Deadfire. I'd also say that most if not all of these combinations don't make a whole lot of sense for Pallegina specifically in terms of her history/personality, but I guess that could also depend on how you interpret/explain them.

Edited October 29, 2017 by blotter

[cheesevillain]

I don't think that Pallegina will be able to multi class, unlike Eder/Serafen, etc. We're talking speculatively, right?

In any case, I think multi class paladins and fighters will have difficulties tanking as well as single class fighters & paladins because of the hit to their power level. It's my impression that it's a trade off between versatility (multi) and the power to do one thing really well (single class).

[blotter]

I don't think that Pallegina will be able to multi class, unlike Eder/Serafen, etc. We're talking speculatively, right?

 

This was discussed on pages 2 and 3 of PugPug's Rundown of Companions/Sidekicks thread.

 

To summarize, multiple past updates and Q&A responses explicitly state that relatively open multiclassing is intended to be an option even for characters, like Pallegina and Aloth, who have only one choice in regards to their single class progression; for example, Aloth would have to be a Wizard, but he could be a Wizard/Barbarian, Wizard/Cipher, or whatever else. However, there is some current dispute as to whether that still holds true based on more recent updates: some people argue that Sawyer's responses from his Tumblr page implicitly suggest that this is no longer the case, while others who have read the same information are less convinced of this change.

 

At this point, there haven't been any explicit statements from Sawyer or other developers (that I've come across, at least) which confirm or deny that companion multiclassing options are going to be restricted more than they would have been prior to the change in how multiclassing works. Not too long ago, Wormerine mentioned having submitted a question about this to Sawyer's Tumblr page, so that might eventually change.

 

In any case, I think multi class paladins and fighters will have difficulties tanking as well as single class fighters & paladins because of the hit to their power level. It's my impression that it's a trade off between versatility (multi) and the power to do one thing really well (single class).

 

The extent to which the tradeoff in power versus versatility impedes tanking ability depends on the extent which tanking itself depends on ability scaling/progression. If lower level options remain effective, having more of them could make up for having less powerful ones. It's also hard to say how much anticipated/unexpected synergies may end up skewing the balance, which is something they're keen to look into for during the Beta.

[MaxQuest]

My party will be lead by a paladin tank, most likely Pallegina, and my question is what your thoughts are on what class a paladin tank could multiclass into to get the most synergistic effects in terms of damage and fulfilling its role (taking damage, controlling and manipulating the battlefield and being able to aid other characters in need)?

I see the following possible combinations for a tank paladin:

- the already mentioned multi-class with Unbroken, as fighter has lots of defensive stuff

- multi-class with wizard (can't say which subclass yet), but the point is to get access to Arcane Veil (instant and per-encounter) as well as: Infuse Vitality, Mirrored Image and a plethora of Llengrath defensive spells.

- multi-class with Lifegiver: since in Deadfire there is gonna be no health limit, keeping hp at max via plain healing could be a viable strategy

- multi-class with barbarian: Savage Defiance + even higher fortitude from Frenzy's +MIG/CON can prove to be quite handy. And if there are many enemy spell-casters, one could multi-class with Mage Slayer.

- multi-class with priest: because of Minor Avatar; and because paladins usually opt for high MIG/INT, and this will quite power-up their Shinning Beacons.

- multi-class with Stalker: for the bonus to defenses

- multi-class with Troubadour: for the Dragon Trashed + Sacred Immolation combo. This will be squishier than other options, but is expected to deliver excellent amounts of damage.

- just a single class non-Bleak Walker paladin, if the high-level abilities/talents will trump everything that comes from multi-classing.

Edited October 30, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Climhazzard]

I'm personally expecting Troubadour to be the best multi class choice for a Paladin tank.  Something like the 4th tier healing phrase would make you invincible, and if you want to deal damage you have options such as dragon thrashed, as a troubadour you could probably do both at once...  but it all depends on what abilities will be available and what level they'll be available at.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Climhazzard

[af_Skum]

Thanks a lot for your answers, you have given me more to think about

[lunattic]

Wanted to add one for basic fighter MC (I dislike the penalties for the following build that all the fighter specialisations offer) for something like Darcozzi Paladini (seems like the least downside to this build). The idea is to make a 2h tank that deals a lot of damage and keeps himself alive via armor buffs and a plethora of healing. You get tons of static damage feats, a flat +22 to all defenses, Lay on hands, fighter's constant recovery, the paladin armor/healing aura, the paladin +2 armor passive, the fighter + 3 enemies engaged stande with -5% damage taken, vengeance, and the disciplined barrage upgrade which converts 50% of your hits into crits 4 times per encounter. 

 

I played this through the current beta and it is an absolute monster. He has better defenses with a 2 hander than the shield fighter (including deflection!) and he does by far the most damage in the party. Also, he is unkillable since he heals for so much, and when needed can just heal allies.

[Madscientist]

After playing a bit in the beta I think of following options for a paladin tank:

- keep her a single class paladin

- paladin/unbroken : as tanky as can be but very little active abilities

- paladin/skald: Thanks to phrase generation via crit you can permanently reduce armor of all enemies in front of you and you can even keep them paralyzed most of the time. You can use defensive chants to become tankier ( I do not know all chants at the moment, but PoE1 had a deflection buff ( or other defenses if you prefer) and you could get a shield that absorbed damage.

- paladin/evoker (wizard subclass) Evokers have a 30% chance to cast evocation spells twice and they have access to illusion spells (e.g. + deflection from spells of the mirror image type ) and enchantment spells (e.g. shield spells for more armor ). As a tank you face lots of enemies. Cast protection spells on yourself ( almost instant and long duration), approach the enemies and burn them with fan of flames, hopefully hitting them twice.

[KDubya]

An interesting build I had was a Darcozzi/Priest of Wael Templar.

 

The Priest of Wael gets Arcane Veil and Mirrored Image for massive quick casted defensive buffs. Plus they get access to the rest of the Priest spells and Paladin abilities.

 

For any sort of tanky, durable damage dealer, adding paladin to a Monk, Barbarian, Fighter, Cipher, Rogue or Wizard just can't be beat. Deep Faith lets you dual wield with better deflection than a sword and board fighter.

[dunehunter]

An interesting build I had was a Darcozzi/Priest of Wael Templar.

 

The Priest of Wael gets Arcane Veil and Mirrored Image for massive quick casted defensive buffs. Plus they get access to the rest of the Priest spells and Paladin abilities.

 

For any sort of tanky, durable damage dealer, adding paladin to a Monk, Barbarian, Fighter, Cipher, Rogue or Wizard just can't be beat. Deep Faith lets you dual wield with better deflection than a sword and board fighter.

 

Darcozzi is just terrible subclass, u can for sure do better with other subclasses.

[dunehunter]

I'm personally expecting Troubadour to be the best multi class choice for a Paladin tank.  Something like the 4th tier healing phrase would make you invincible, and if you want to deal damage you have options such as dragon thrashed, as a troubadour you could probably do both at once...  but it all depends on what abilities will be available and what level they'll be available at.

 

I wish to try Troubadour when their Recite Modal bug is fixed.

[KDubya]

 

An interesting build I had was a Darcozzi/Priest of Wael Templar.

 

The Priest of Wael gets Arcane Veil and Mirrored Image for massive quick casted defensive buffs. Plus they get access to the rest of the Priest spells and Paladin abilities.

 

For any sort of tanky, durable damage dealer, adding paladin to a Monk, Barbarian, Fighter, Cipher, Rogue or Wizard just can't be beat. Deep Faith lets you dual wield with better deflection than a sword and board fighter.

 

Darcozzi is just terrible subclass, u can for sure do better with other subclasses.

 

 

I wanted a supporting guy as this was a henchman not the main.

 

I wanted Lay on Hands so Bleak Walker is out (-30% on healing makes it a poor choice)

 

My team was going to be dropping Phantom Foes on the enemy at start so everyone would be attacking flanked guys (sneak attack) so Kind Wayfarers are out (penalty on damage to sneak attackable)

 

I wanted to have an aura so Goldpact was out

 

That leaves Shieldbearers and Darcozzi and I preferred Darcozzi as I did not care about a +1 engagement with a shield and might want to cast Lay on Hands on myself.

[zealotstim]

Goldpact are pretty nice for paladin subclass when multiclassing. You can do a low int build since you won't have auras, and this really helps you attain high other stats. Obviously this doesn't work for chanter multi, but for fighter it's great. They are also the tankiest paladin subclass due to gilded enmity, which lasts a really long time btw.

[JerekKruger]

To summarize, multiple past updates and Q&A responses explicitly state that relatively open multiclassing is intended to be an option even for characters, like Pallegina and Aloth, who have only one choice in regards to their single class progression; for example, Aloth would have to be a Wizard, but he could be a Wizard/Barbarian, Wizard/Cipher, or whatever else.

 

Sawyer's answer to a question of the latest Q&A stream make it pretty clear that currently this is not how it works:

 

 

How will multiclassing for companions work?

 

JS: I actually addressed this last time so I don't want to go through it a ton of times again, but there are technical issues that will make it a little difficult for us to do true unlimited multiclassing and respeccing with companions. Right now we have something in where it's basically three main sort of multiclassing options for every character, or rather, there's a base class and two multiclass options. That's what we're currently using. That can expand in the future. I don't want to get everyone's hopes crazy up, nor do I want to say it's impossible, but it is — we basically did an analysis of how expensive it would be to rework the character creation and leveling up system to handle that, and it was not a small amount of work. So, before I say, "Yeah, we're definitely going to do it", I have to caution you that we might not have the time to do that. At least at launch. That's how that is currently.

[blotter]

 

To summarize, multiple past updates and Q&A responses explicitly state that relatively open multiclassing is intended to be an option even for characters, like Pallegina and Aloth, who have only one choice in regards to their single class progression; for example, Aloth would have to be a Wizard, but he could be a Wizard/Barbarian, Wizard/Cipher, or whatever else.

 

Sawyer's answer to a question of the latest Q&A stream make it pretty clear that currently this is not how it works:

 

Right. And the reason you're expecting something posted nearly over a month before to conform to this information is... because? I already updated the Known Information thread to reflect this information based on the information from Q&A 7 that preceded this response, which was just one of many cases of them repeating themselves across Q&A sessions. It doesn't change the fact that it wasn't clear at the time.

 

Edit: derped.

Edited December 6, 2017 by blotter

[JerekKruger]

Right. And the reason you're expecting something posted nearly a month before to conform to this information is... because? I already updated the Known Information thread to reflect this information based on the information from Q&A 7 that preceded this response, which was just one of many cases of them repeating themselves across Q&A sessions. It doesn't change the fact that it wasn't clear at the time.

 

My apologies: I didn't notice the date jump from late October to late November and also forgot that this subforum isn't part of the beta subforums.

[blotter]

My apologies: I didn't notice the date jump from late October to late November and also forgot that this subforum isn't part of the beta subforums.

 

No problem. I suppose it also brings anyone reading this thread up to date if they haven't checked out the other threads or the q&as themselves.

[Pharaun159]

Wanted to add one for basic fighter MC (I dislike the penalties for the following build that all the fighter specialisations offer) for something like Darcozzi Paladini (seems like the least downside to this build). The idea is to make a 2h tank that deals a lot of damage and keeps himself alive via armor buffs and a plethora of healing. You get tons of static damage feats, a flat +22 to all defenses, Lay on hands, fighter's constant recovery, the paladin armor/healing aura, the paladin +2 armor passive, the fighter + 3 enemies engaged stande with -5% damage taken, vengeance, and the disciplined barrage upgrade which converts 50% of your hits into crits 4 times per encounter.

 

I played this through the current beta and it is an absolute monster. He has better defenses with a 2 hander than the shield fighter (including deflection!) and he does by far the most damage in the party. Also, he is unkillable since he heals for so much, and when needed can just heal allies.

This was the character i was thinking of makin. Paladin fighter with twohander makes me think of dnd Glorybood of tempus. Paladins make good characters for diplomacy too. Atleast they dud in the first game.

[SaruNi]

Pallegina's only multiclass option will be Paladin/Chanter... Paladin will probably be a unique subclass, Chanter subclass is unclear. (As an avian godlike, couldn't she get some sort of special bird-related singing abilities?) 

Edited March 3, 2018 by SaruNi

[Yosharian]

Pallegina's only multiclass option will be Paladin/Chanter... Paladin will probably be a unique subclass, Chanter subclass is unclear. (As an avian godlike, couldn't she get some sort of special bird-related singing abilities?) 

Her Chanter class is just the base class, no subclass

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Yosharian

[Gromnir]

as we reflect a bit, am thinking the beta is a bad test for tanks.  the poe beta punished tanks.  the cave bears and beetles were making a mockery o' high deflection and high dr.  weren't long after the release o' poe 'fore we got serious tank nerfs.  is complete opposite for deadfire beta with almost no foes genuine capable o' hurting a paladin or paladin/anything with defense as a primary or even secondary goal during level-ups. am suspecting we got only a vague notion as to how tanky we need make tanks for deadfire.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[mrmonocle]

I don't see a party without a rogue/paladin and a ranger/paladin as the frontliners with awesome damage potential.

[Yosharian]

So I'm considering a Paladin/Chanter now that they removed the horrible penalties.  Maybe a Shieldbearer/Skald, I can live without Cruel/Aggressive responses.

 

I'm wondering how it compares to an Unbroken/Skald in terms of tankiness, damage-dealing potential, etc.

 

Obviously the Paladin brings a lot more support skills to the table.  But the loss of Unbroken's Armor Rating bonus, Armored Grace, disengagement bonuses, Tactical Barrage... hmm.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Yosharian