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I'm concerned about the change in ability points to multiclasses, they were touted as trading power for versatility but giving single classes more ability points cuts into versatility for multiclass casters. Not sure what a good solution is, but I don't think this is it.

 

I thought it was more of the case that of a wide versus tall build. Single class goes tall so it will have access to higher level spells, but multi goes wide and get's to grow faster than other-wise but is split between two pools. It's specialization versus variety.

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I'm concerned about the change in ability points to multiclasses, they were touted as trading power for versatility but giving single classes more ability points cuts into versatility for multiclass casters. Not sure what a good solution is, but I don't think this is it.

 

I thought it was more of the case that of a wide versus tall build. Single class goes tall so it will have access to higher level spells, but multi goes wide and get's to grow faster than other-wise but is split between two pools. It's specialization versus variety.

 

 

I, for one, don't think there's many options for either single or multiclass characters in the current beta build. They both need to fatten up (to borrow your analogy).

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I think because multiclass chars already have access to two (complete) resource pools and can combine great low level abilites they are much more versatile than single class chars. I never understood why they also need more ability points at level up than single class chars.

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I'm concerned about the change in ability points to multiclasses, they were touted as trading power for versatility but giving single classes more ability points cuts into versatility for multiclass casters. Not sure what a good solution is, but I don't think this is it.

 

I thought it was more of the case that of a wide versus tall build. Single class goes tall so it will have access to higher level spells, but multi goes wide and get's to grow faster than other-wise but is split between two pools. It's specialization versus variety.

 

 

I, for one, don't think there's many options for either single or multiclass characters in the current beta build. They both need to fatten up (to borrow your analogy).

 

 

I'm not even in the beta and I agree. The sub-classes seemingly stole from the former base classes more than add. So it's more like you have to per-declare which variant on a class you want to go. Then multi-classing pares down either variant even further even though it's an attempt for variety.

 

I get that Obsidian has done a ton of work to get this system going, but even with the increased combinatorics say when (100 choose 30) now becomes (200 choose 20). Sure your number of combinations goes up, but now your class only consists of 20 defining things rather than 30. You have more options as to how to experience game play, but less options of how to conduct any individual battle.

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New post on tumblr:

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/170909698336/we-just-saw-that-brandon-adler-is-game-director-of

 

Edit: you ninja Wormerine :) 

 

We’ve received so much negative feedback about it that we’re changing it to consume resources on the cast frame or when Interrupted. This does open the possibility for micro-ing early cancels to avoid the resource consumption penalty

That's a nice minor QoL improvement. But does this ("on cast or on interrupt") mean that out characters (and enemy casters) won't lose the spell-usage when hard-cc'ed? Is this what he means by: "Paralyze is currently acting as an Interrupt (it is not supposed to)"?

 

The casting class with the biggest issues at the moment is cipher. They have a limited range of powers, limited access to Concentration, their Focus gain is slow, and their cast times are relatively long. They’re going to get more attention than any other class in the next few weeks.

The listed weaknesses are absolutely on point, especially the long casting/recovery durations. Glad that casting ciphers might be brought on par with other power builds. Edited by MaxQuest
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Obsidian's Meeting Room :

  • Person A : Alright guys, combat in Pillars Of Eternity is finally balanced & feels fun to play,or at least, is satisfying. Good job team.
  • Person B : Yeah, after two years of efforts me made it !
  • Person A : So, as you know we're about to move forward into the Sequel, what you think we should do ?
  • ...
  • Person C : For combat, I think our best move is to take all the improvements we've made over two years for 3.0... and throw it all into the garbage ! Good idea Right ?

All :

  • ...
  • Deal ! 

 

Jokes aside, this post will probably end up being brutal but passion can be brutal sometimes...

 

It still bugs me that they decided to apply such drastic changes after all the hard work they've done to reach the 3.0 Quality.

I mean, they litteraly threw everything they've made to balance it.

 

Combat felt great, the pace was good, casters were fine, etc.

Now everything is f**cked up again.

 

Some said they struggled to indentify what happens in combat because of , quote : "VFX Overload".

  • So they changed the party size to 5 : Ok I'm sad, but I can deal with that.
  • Adam implemented a VFX Opacity which basically, F**cking solves the "VFX Overload" by itself.

Great ! You're DONE now ! Everything is Ok !

And then, somehow, everything else that made POE Combat finally great, has been thrown away.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

They wanted to implement the Empower thing :

  • Why wouldn't they add that, iterate around it, to make it work over the 3.0 system. Empower is a good addition & a good idea on paper.

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Then, we've all witnessed the so-called "Might Issue", which is total bullsh*t to be honest.  :lol:

Seriously, Might wasn't, and has never been associated with muscles. Only dumbass people that had such a restricted mind, and couldn't work their head around it, claimed that Might made no sense, because they could'nt read a f**cking description.

  • When you add Might to a Wizard, you just have to understand that you enhance his Spiritual Power, not his muscles, doesn't that makes sense ?
  • When you add Might to a Fighter, you enhance his Physical Power, it's just englobed into the same category.

But no, they decided that Might is "only about muscles, it doesn't make sense omg lol xD lmao".

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There are too many things to say, and I start getting lost in my own point. So, to summarize :

  • All the balance they've made to achieve the 3.0 Quality, they threw it all... & now, have to rebalance everything, all over again from the beginning, because it f*cked things up.
  • They wanted to introduce new mechanics... Ok great ! Do it ! But do it so it works around the system that is already in, and make it work with it.
  • In addition to that, they cut half the things that were already there to help the game feel better, which f*cks things up even more.

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

By the way, I agree with Boroer's point about the so-called "Feedbacks" and cutting Spells out of the game.

------------------------------------------------------------------

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I'm concerned about the change in ability points to multiclasses, they were touted as trading power for versatility but giving single classes more ability points cuts into versatility for multiclass casters. Not sure what a good solution is, but I don't think this is it.

 

 

I thought it was more of the case that of a wide versus tall build. Single class goes tall so it will have access to higher level spells, but multi goes wide and get's to grow faster than other-wise but is split between two pools. It's specialization versus variety.

And relative variety is going to be impacted by this change. Right now multiclasses have an edge due to synergy, but giving single classes more abilities will undercut that by grabbing more passives and spells.

I think because multiclass chars already have access to two (complete) resource pools and can combine great low level abilites they are much more versatile than single class chars. I never understood why they also need more ability points at level up than single class chars.

Because they're spread out a lot more. This wouldn't be an issue if everyone got 2 ability points at level up, but with the lack of talents and shallower resource pools I think multiclasses will be at a disadvantage.

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It still bugs me that they decided to apply such drastic changes after all the hard work they've done to reach the 3.0 Quality.

I mean, they litteraly threw everything they've made to balance it.

They have threw out nothing. The last time I checked PoE1 is still in pretty good state. It seems AssCreed way of releasing the same game over and over again is desired by many. So 1.0 will be a bit of a mess. So what? They will release expansions, with time hopefully it will be better. Maybe in the end it will be better than PoE, maybe worse but at least it will be a bit different. A reason return to PoE and PoE2.

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Wanted to quickly throw my support for the per-encounter system. I LOVE it. I’m totally with you guys that casters have their problems (as has been chronicled here in great detail) but I love that in Deadfire my priest and my wizard actually use their power and cast spells rather than serving as wand users who cast spells once every 5 fights.

 

Or worse, I ‘conserve’ my spells not knowing when I would need them and later I have way more than I need. Wasted spells I could have cast.

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Obsidian's Meeting Room :

  • Person A : Alright guys, combat in Pillars Of Eternity is finally balanced & feels fun to play,or at least, is satisfying. Good job team.
  • Person B : Yeah, after two years of efforts me made it !
  • Person A : So, as you know we're about to move forward into the Sequel, what you think we should do ?
  • ...
  • Person C : For combat, I think our best move is to take all the improvements we've made over two years for 3.0... and throw it all into the garbage ! Good idea Right ?

All :

  • ...
  • Deal ! 

 

Jokes aside, this post will probably end up being brutal but passion can be brutal sometimes...

 

It still bugs me that they decided to apply such drastic changes after all the hard work they've done to reach the 3.0 Quality.

I mean, they litteraly threw everything they've made to balance it.

 

Combat felt great, the pace was good, casters were fine, etc.

Now everything is f**cked up again.

 

Some said they struggled to indentify what happens in combat because of , quote : "VFX Overload".

  • So they changed the party size to 5 : Ok I'm sad, but I can deal with that.
  • Adam implemented a VFX Opacity which basically, F**cking solves the "VFX Overload" by itself.

Great ! You're DONE now ! Everything is Ok !

And then, somehow, everything else that made POE Combat finally great, has been thrown away.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

They wanted to implement the Empower thing :

  • Why wouldn't they add that, iterate around it, to make it work over the 3.0 system. Empower is a good addition & a good idea on paper.

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Then, we've all witnessed the so-called "Might Issue", which is total bullsh*t to be honest.  :lol:

Seriously, Might wasn't, and has never been associated with muscles. Only dumbass people that had such a restricted mind, and couldn't work their head around it, claimed that Might made no sense, because they could'nt read a f**cking description.

  • When you add Might to a Wizard, you just have to understand that you enhance his Spiritual Power, not his muscles, doesn't that makes sense ?
  • When you add Might to a Fighter, you enhance his Physical Power, it's just englobed into the same category.

But no, they decided that Might is "only about muscles, it doesn't make sense omg lol xD lmao".

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There are too many things to say, and I start getting lost in my own point. So, to summarize :

  • All the balance they've made to achieve the 3.0 Quality, they threw it all... & now, have to rebalance everything, all over again from the beginning, because it f*cked things up.
  • They wanted to introduce new mechanics... Ok great ! Do it ! But do it so it works around the system that is already in, and make it work with it.
  • In addition to that, they cut half the things that were already there to help the game feel better, which f*cks things up even more.

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

By the way, I agree with Boroer's point about the so-called "Feedbacks" and cutting Spells out of the game.

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hey man I get it, I felt this way as well.  I did not want multi classing as I have never been a fan and wanted to keep Vancian Casters but I was in the minority with you so we lost.  I still think this will be a great game we will just have to shift.  It is a great game world and I will play by what rules are implemented.

 

 

 

It still bugs me that they decided to apply such drastic changes after all the hard work they've done to reach the 3.0 Quality.

I mean, they litteraly threw everything they've made to balance it.

They have threw out nothing. The last time I checked PoE1 is still in pretty good state. It seems AssCreed way of releasing the same game over and over again is desired by many. So 1.0 will be a bit of a mess. So what? They will release expansions, with time hopefully it will be better. Maybe in the end it will be better than PoE, maybe worse but at least it will be a bit different. A reason return to PoE and PoE2.

 

I get what hes saying why go back when you have worked so hard to have a pretty good system.  All the classes are either good or great and the small less powerful cross class talents were good enough for me.  I would have just improved the crappy ones.  I think POE 2 would have been great with the new look, location and companions with relatively the same combat just maybe new spells and abilities  but hey I was out voted by you guys so I will play by your rules! :)

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Have gun will travel.

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ABilities are per-encounter, abilities have resource consumption. Both decisions are good imo. Seems the team undestands now that video games need a different approach than board games to work. I was pro for resource-based abilities and cooldowns from Pillars 1 campaign. I still thing it's the best way for video games.

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The druid and priest one, I've seen people complaining about having no idea what did what a lot early on. This was clearly a case of Learn2Play, but it seems to have stuck with Josh.

The main problem with priests and druids spells is that you had access to all of them at all times. So you spend time in every fight trying to find the spell perfect for that very situation or if you're in a tight spot you go through all of them to see if one can save your bacon and it's exhausting.

 

It felt like Obsidian got lazy when it came to the spell system for druids and priests in PoE : they just took the spontaneous casting from D&D and said "Let's do that, but with no drawbacks!".

 

Reading all of this, it feels like Obsidian has hit a snag called "class-based character system". They tried to make them more generic in PoE but that goal is now at odds with things like sub-classes, which instead favors specialization. Like, maybe that removing all restrictions on armor and weapons was enough, no need for more generality, especially when that generality seems to only favor spell-casters. All that the people talk about is "muscly wizard", never "spellsy fighter".

 

 

Also, that fancy quoting interface can go to hell. GAH!

Edited by Sannom
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Here is the first question . Not sure if this is suppose to be light hearted sarcasm. If not, geez, You so patient Josh

 

melnorme asked:
 
We just saw that Brandon Adler is game director of the PoE2 DLCs. You better not abandon the game balance after release, J-Saw! Especially not if it's a trainwreck that even your fellow goons don't like (we saw that too). Consider the possibility that the "action economy" is a failure and restore the primacy of per-rest. I've recommended an easy way to achieve this - you can still keep the per-encounter spellcasting, but make the Empower-based casting as fast as PoE1 spellcasting was.
 

 

 

Josh Response: 

 

I’ll probably still continue to work on Deadfire issues, balance and otherwise, post-launch.
 
I did look into what you had suggested re: people not wanting to Empower wizard spells because it didn’t seem worth it.  Our telemetry data doesn’t support that assertion.  In the Backer Beta, people Empower priest and wizard spells more than other class abilities.  Empower is underutilized overall (a small percentage of use in encounters), but when it used, it is used to Empower those class abilities.
 
The Backer Beta content is a bit unusual for Deadfire content in that it heavily features lagufaeth that aggressively paralyze casters with few remedies to deal with it.  Paralyze is currently acting as an Interrupt (it is not supposed to) and Concentration can’t block it.
 
We just had an internal play week and traditional casters, especially wizards, were used heavily and consistently.  The main issue with wizards is lack of access to spells (which we are addressing via a general increase in powers per new power level).  The main issue with long cast times (outside of paralyze) isn’t enemy Interrupts, but resource consumption on the first frame of the cast.  We’ve received so much negative feedback about it that we’re changing it to consume resources on the cast frame or when Interrupted.  This does open the possibility for micro-ing early cancels to avoid the resource consumption penalty, but that seems preferable (and for some players, desirable) to people being generally frustrated.
 
The casting class with the biggest issues at the moment is cipher.  They have a limited range of powers, limited access to Concentration, their Focus gain is slow, and their cast times are relatively long.  They’re going to get more attention than any other class in the next few weeks.
 
As for the general idea of moving back to per-rest primacy, that would require more than making an individual use of Empower better, as Empower is limited to 1/encounter/character.  The players who are using Empower have recognized how dramatic an Empowered long cast wizard or priest spell can be and are using it primarily for that purpose.

 

 

Here is second question from same user:

 

melnorme asked:
 
Interesting response - but the issue isn't so much what people are doing when they DO use spellcasters, but the fact that they don't enjoy playing spellcasters and find them inferior to other classes. My idea was that quickening the Empowered spells (or making spellcasting more PoE1-ish in some other way) would rectify that.
Anyone can experiment with cast times by editing CastSpeeds.gamedatabrowser or recovery times in RecoveryTimes.gamedatabrowser.  The process for modding is pretty simple in Deadfire, even in the Backer Beta, so I’m surprised I haven’t seen much outside of one-off experiments.
 
No one needs to wait for us to release another Backer Beta build to experiment with this stuff.  That said, I think people will find that if they adjust the Average and Slow cast speeds by more than a second, Deadfire will become The Land of Supreme Casters.  Even before accounting for changes to Pen/Armor, Fireball is already doing ~30% more damage than its Pillars I counterpart.  With Empower, it’s doing face-melting levels of damage and almost certainly blasting through the armor of everything that isn’t immune to Burn.
 
People can also experiment with editing individual ability attacks.  These are all stored in Abilities - Spells.gamedatabrowser.  The cast and recovery time categories are set on the attacks themselves, not the abilities, e.g. you want to edit Fireball_AoE, not Fireball.

 

 

Edited by draego
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Hey man I get it, I felt this way as well.  I did not want multi classing as I have never been a fan and wanted to keep Vancian Casters but I was in the minority with you so we lost.  I still think this will be a great game we will just have to shift.  It is a great game world and I will play by what rules are implemented.

 

 

 

Yeah losing Vancian Casting was really disappointing to me. I enjoyed having both per encounter and per rest spells and abilities and the challenge of managing resources to go as far as I could before resting.

 

Ah well. I am sure it will be fine and casters will be just as great in PoE2.

Edited by Valmy
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Tbh, to personally reach the lead dev to spam him with your complains about his game seems a bit lame. Better discuss it here and let devs check at their own pace. If they interfere, then ask away.

Please keep us posted on how you think we should use our social media accounts and what you find/don’t find to be lame. Critical feedback IMO.

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Tbh, to personally reach the lead dev to spam him with your complains about his game seems a bit lame. Better discuss it here and let devs check at their own pace. If they interfere, then ask away.

Please keep us posted on how you think we should use our social media accounts and what you find/don’t find to be lame. Critical feedback IMO.

 

Use and abuse are two different things.

It's like you're at work and someone comes and tells you how to do it then leaves. There's the forums for dropping opinions and discussing. Devs will then read them and approach in conversation on the pace they feel comfortable. Reaching personally to poke them about how you feel their doing their job is privileged duchebaggery imo.

It was not like Josh made any post about the subject and others responded to it.

Edited by Sedrefilos
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Well, all of these questions are posted on his "Ask Me Anything" Tumblr, in the end he's the one who choose wether he answers or not, at his own pace.

He answered some of mine in the past, and some not. He does this as he wants to.

He could totally don't give a f*ck about these questions and move on, but he's kind enough to read them & provide any insight whenever he can.

 

Of course, I hope nobody comes in & say :

  • "Hi Josh, I don't have any question. Just to let you know that : You suck, your games suck, your life sucks & you can suck my c*ck."

Please people, don't do that...  :unsure:

 

Also, I feel like most of the time, these questions are just "random questions", not complaints.

Edited by DexGames
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With the more limited spell selection now, I'm hoping they'll introduce something like metamagic manipulation. I.e. sacrifice one aspect of a spell for another -- more power for smaller area; more range for easier resistance, etc. That will give us more choice in how to apply those limited spells.

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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Well, Modders out there, you have Josh's Blessing to make your own Pillars Combat System.  :lol:

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/170917753381/interesting-response-but-the-issue-isnt-so-much

 

EDIT : Same as Draego.

 

I actually planned on trying to do this anyway. I wouldn't balance it (who has the time?), but i would re-implement abandon POE 1 systems.

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Gosh, I’d love to hear an announcement on these games they keep hinting toward that are different kinds of games in the Pillars IP universe. There was a reddit thread about an Icewind Dale-type POE game that focuses more on dungeon crawling than narrative. That’d be my dream.

 

Though Josh has also mentioned a tactical turn-based game as well - I’m assuming in the vein of something like Battle Brothers?

 

I love the IP they created and plan to support whatever future efforts they make in that world. Eora is such a rich creation, and there should be tons of cool concepts to explore in places like the Living Lands, the White that Wends, Old Vallia, etc., and historical events like the Saint’s War.

Edited by Frog Man
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