I never finished Pillars of Eternity.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Mechanically, it works fine. Where it creates a weird disconnect is dialogue and scripted interaction, where it often corresponds to physical power, even if your character is a wizard, priest, thief and such. My orlan crossbow sniper rogue lifted humans by the neck... somehow. But maybe fixing it isn't worth the trouble.

 

Resolve has always felt like a weird ability score to me. It does a bunch of different things. I'm not sure why it's recommended for paladins more than fighters, for example.

[Katarack21]

Mechanically, it works fine. Where it creates a weird disconnect is dialogue and scripted interaction, where it often corresponds to physical power, even if your character is a wizard, priest, thief and such.

Exactly. I think there was a disconnect in the development process; clearly the people who did the scripted interactions didn't have a clear understanding of how might is not strength.

[Baltic]

 

Mechanically, it works fine. Where it creates a weird disconnect is dialogue and scripted interaction, where it often corresponds to physical power, even if your character is a wizard, priest, thief and such.

 

Exactly. I think there was a disconnect in the development process; clearly the people who did the scripted interactions didn't have a clear understanding of how might is not strength.

But might is strength. It's not only physical strength, it also includes spiritual strength and the game does not explain if or why the two are linked, but they come together in the might stat.

[Katarack21]

 

 

Mechanically, it works fine. Where it creates a weird disconnect is dialogue and scripted interaction, where it often corresponds to physical power, even if your character is a wizard, priest, thief and such.

Exactly. I think there was a disconnect in the development process; clearly the people who did the scripted interactions didn't have a clear understanding of how might is not strength.

But might is strength. It's not only physical strength, it also includes spiritual strength and the game does not explain if or why the two are linked, but they come together in the might stat.

 

Might can be strength, but might isn't Strength in the "specific title of a stat that Might is often confused with" sense, although it is often treated as such in the scripted interactions because of, I suspect, the issue outlined above.. I simply forgot a capital letter.

 

I *really* feel that "power" is a better substitute word for what Might represents than "strength", because while Might *can* represent physical muscle power (strength) it actually represents the power--"strength"--of your soul.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Katarack21

[Messier-31]

I *really* feel that "power" is a better substitute word for what Might represents than "strength", because while Might *can* represent physical muscle power (strength) it actually represents the power--"strength"--of your soul.

 

I prefer MIGHT over POWER, because the latter has a sci-fi vibe.

 

This is the similar reason why I think there should be a WARRIOR class instead of the FIGHTER... I mean, c'mon, this ain't Mortal Kombat.

[Ashen Rohk]

So...barbarian?

[Wormerine]

 

 

Mechanically, it works fine. Where it creates a weird disconnect is dialogue and scripted interaction, where it often corresponds to physical power, even if your character is a wizard, priest, thief and such.

Exactly. I think there was a disconnect in the development process; clearly the people who did the scripted interactions didn't have a clear understanding of how might is not strength.

But might is strength. It's not only physical strength, it also includes spiritual strength and the game does not explain if or why the two are linked, but they come together in the might stat.

 

Yeah, this is the problem many people have I think. A mage has high might, and therefore his spells do more damage&healing. But he also hits like a truck, when you give him a weapon. And he lifts boulders. I think the problem is role-playing. I know that might isn't supposed to mean "strength" but it does that and more.

[Ninjamestari]

I'm going to make chores engaging.

 

 

Sounds like you're going to make chores great again ^^

Good luck with that, and I'd love to hear what you come up with. Feel free to PM any ideas you might have to me, I'd love to have a discussion regarding the subject. I'm always interested in new ideas.

[Baltic]

 

 

 

Mechanically, it works fine. Where it creates a weird disconnect is dialogue and scripted interaction, where it often corresponds to physical power, even if your character is a wizard, priest, thief and such.

 

Exactly. I think there was a disconnect in the development process; clearly the people who did the scripted interactions didn't have a clear understanding of how might is not strength.

But might is strength. It's not only physical strength, it also includes spiritual strength and the game does not explain if or why the two are linked, but they come together in the might stat.

Yeah, this is the problem many people have I think. A mage has high might, and therefore his spells do more damage&healing. But he also hits like a truck, when you give him a weapon. And he lifts boulders. I think the problem is role-playing. I know that might isn't supposed to mean "strength" but it does that and more.

But why is there this misconception? Might does what the in game description says it does. Makes you physically (and spiritually) strong and allows you to do intimidating displays and acts of brute force. Should their be surprise that having high intellect allows characters to solve problems?

[Ninjamestari]

But why is there this misconception? Might does what the in game description says it does. Makes you physically (and spiritually) strong and allows you to do intimidating displays and acts of brute force. Should their be surprise that having high intellect allows characters to solve problems?

 

Because people don't want mental and physical prowess to be tied to the same stat due to the disconnect it causes with reality. I think it has been said in different ways for quite a few times already in this thread alone. Might indeed works as designed, but people don't like the design in the first place so that point is moot.

[Baltic]

 

But why is there this misconception? Might does what the in game description says it does. Makes you physically (and spiritually) strong and allows you to do intimidating displays and acts of brute force. Should their be surprise that having high intellect allows characters to solve problems?

 

Because people don't want mental and physical prowess to be tied to the same stat due to the disconnect it causes with reality. I think it has been said in different ways for quite a few times already in this thread alone. Might indeed works as designed, but people don't like the design in the first place so that point is moot.

I kind of agree. But that isn't what's being said. All that's been asked is why having high might allows your character to use it.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

But why is there this misconception? Might does what the in game description says it does. Makes you physically (and spiritually) strong and allows you to do intimidating displays and acts of brute force. Should their be surprise that having high intellect allows characters to solve problems?

 

Because people don't want mental and physical prowess to be tied to the same stat due to the disconnect it causes with reality. I think it has been said in different ways for quite a few times already in this thread alone. Might indeed works as designed, but people don't like the design in the first place so that point is moot.

 

When you say people, you mean some people.  Some people may not like it, some people actually like the consistency of a damage stat being all in one.  Might is intended to represent a combination of physical strength and chi power stuff.  Some people think they should still be able to do tons of damage while playing a physically weak character, blagging it that they are a master rapierist or something, but in many if not most systems they have to accept that they need strength, and in this setting you have to tone yourself up if you want to channel more of that mystical energy.  Cannae change the laws of physics!  Or magic in this case. 

 

Personally. I think being able to take a perk a la Fallout style that alters the 'balance' between spiritual and physical power in the Might stat: without the perk the balance is equal between spirit and physical, causing the stat to remain the same regardless of whether it is physical blows or magic, while taking the perk allows you to choose between being more focused on spiritual or physical sides of it, giving a bonus to one and a penalty to the other.  This would be easily abused though I think, wizards and fighters it would be a no-brainer and allow even greater heights min/maxing, so not sure on balance there.  Another option would be to choose the 'source' of your Might stat when you create your character, with the main effect being mainly in dialogue when you take an option unlocked by MIght, changing the line "You grab them by the throat and lift them up" to "You pin them down with your magic, almost choking them with your power" or "You channel your energy through your limbs, enhancing your strength as you grab them...".

[Ninjamestari]

When you say people, you mean some people.  

 

 

Obviously.

 

I think if it went another way around to what you're suggesting, it might even work. Have might just be regular strength, add wits or willpower or somesuch to represent mental power that increase spell damage, and then have a talent that allows you to "channel your soul's energy into your physical attacks" that would let you use the wits stat instead of might to determine damage rolls, kinda like the feat that allows you to use dexterity instead of strength for melee attack rolls in D&D. You could then have a special "chi strength" - talent available to monks and monk-multiclass options that would allow you to 'channel the energy of your body into your spells'. Those would be acceptable enough to me I think.

 

The real problem I think is with the spellcasters. The fantasy of being a wizard is tightly tied to being a scholar, and there's no being a scholar if you're so stupid you get negative effects from intelligence. This sort of freedom takes away from the game more than it adds.

 

If I'd do the stat-makeover I'd go with something like this:

 

Might: Represents physical strength and muscle mass. Increases the damage for melee weapons and bows (stretching a heavy bow requires quite a bit of strength)

Dexterity: Represents speed, agility and coordination. Reduces recovery time.

Constitution: Represents health and toughness, Increases hitpoints.

Wits: Represents the ability to think on your feet and improvise (or something). Increases the effectiveness of spells and abilities.

Intelligence: Represents knowledge the ability to learn, increases skill points (and could unlock certain talents)

Resolve: Represents Willpower, increases the pool of resources you can draw upon to perform special abilities (more stuff per-encounter)

 

For certain characters, there could be talents that allow you to use one stat in place of another to preserve that whole 'soul' theme without completely sacrificing the physical identity of the character.

 

EDIT: as for why I'd go with Intelligence increasing skill points, I like the idea of having a stat (namely intelligence) make your character more versatile, as that is the true strength of intelligence in the real life as well. The ability to learn anything quickly leads to incredible versatility when it comes to skills, and an intelligent person can more easily come up with alternating approaches to a given problem than a less intelligent person. I think having it affect durations and AoE is way less interesting. You could instead add a skill that increases your AoE and another to increase Duration.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[hilfazer]

You could instead add a skill that increases your AoE and another to increase Duration.

Or a talent/ability.

[basic_hitler]

In fairness, I don't think the twin elms content is up to par with anything that comes before, save for a few short moments.

 

Without disclosing anything, 95% of what makes PoE good comes before Twin Elms, and that's assuming you play White March before reaching twin elms.

[Katarack21]

 

 

But why is there this misconception? Might does what the in game description says it does. Makes you physically (and spiritually) strong and allows you to do intimidating displays and acts of brute force. Should their be surprise that having high intellect allows characters to solve problems?

 

Because people don't want mental and physical prowess to be tied to the same stat due to the disconnect it causes with reality. I think it has been said in different ways for quite a few times already in this thread alone. Might indeed works as designed, but people don't like the design in the first place so that point is moot.

 

When you say people, you mean some people.  Some people may not like it, some people actually like the consistency of a damage stat being all in one. 

That's exactly accurate. There's, what, ten people in here that care? Not even the majority of *this thread*. Let alone *this board*, which is only a tiny fragment of  PoE players.

 

*PEOPLE*, in general, really don't care. PoE players, in general, really don't care. Most of them don't bother to comment or remark, let alone go to a message board and complain about it repeatedly. Most people who have played PoE have never complained about Might, because most people who have played PoE--the vast majority of the over-one-million--don't care enough to do so.

[basic_hitler]

The idea that spellpower and fighting prowess are linked to an internal drive separate from brawn and intellect is a pretty cool idea, philosophically speaking, and it makes for better gameplay honestly. Intellect being a stat that hones in the precision with which some abilities are performed is a neat idea. A mage with lots of might may well eradicate everything more effectively, but a smart mage can blow something up while honing the spell to protect his buddies.

 

It's a neat idea. How can you hate it except as a mere break from the tradition of int being ~*ThE CaStEr StAt*~?

[anameforobsidian]

In fairness, I don't think the twin elms content is up to par with anything that comes before, save for a few short moments.

 

Without disclosing anything, 95% of what makes PoE good comes before Twin Elms, and that's assuming you play White March before reaching twin elms.

 

The Twin Elms content is better than the vast majority of Defiance Bay Content.  By that time you're normally level-capped, and there's not a ton of loot that makes it worthwhile to get there, and the dungeons have the same fights over and over.  But you still have some of the best quests in the vanilla game, one of which leads to a very interesting ending slide where your choice is acknowledged (and carries over into the next game).

[rjshae]

 Personally. I think being able to take a perk a la Fallout style that alters the 'balance' between spiritual and physical power in the Might stat: without the perk the balance is equal between spirit and physical, causing the stat to remain the same regardless of whether it is physical blows or magic, while taking the perk allows you to choose between being more focused on spiritual or physical sides of it, giving a bonus to one and a penalty to the other.  This would be easily abused though I think, wizards and fighters it would be a no-brainer and allow even greater heights min/maxing, so not sure on balance there.  Another option would be to choose the 'source' of your Might stat when you create your character, with the main effect being mainly in dialogue when you take an option unlocked by MIght, changing the line "You grab them by the throat and lift them up" to "You pin them down with your magic, almost choking them with your power" or "You channel your energy through your limbs, enhancing your strength as you grab them...".

 

An "Exertion" talent might work for this purpose. You take a modal talent that lets you use a different attribute to determine your Might damage bonus: Wizards use Int; Fighters use Con; Priests use Res, Rogues use Dex, &c. However, this talent always causes endurance damage each time you use it. This talent would let your wimpy Wizard cast a devastating Fireball by focusing her massive Intellect on the task, but leave her more physically exhausted afterwards.

 

I suspect this wouldn't be unbalancing because the player must weight the cost versus the benefit during each battle. Sure they could min-max the different attribute, but most of the time the endurance penalty would be too steep to allow constant use.

[Wormerine]

In fairness, I don't think the twin elms content is up to par with anything that comes before, save for a few short moments.

 

Without disclosing anything, 95% of what makes PoE good comes before Twin Elms, and that's assuming you play White March before reaching twin elms.

Twin Elsm certainly felt empty, but gods' quests were a high point of the vanilla game to me. Story wise certainly. The finale did change how I perceived the game as well.

[Jarmo]

So, impressions of PoE, reasons why not finish the playthrough and bazillion posts about gender equality. 

 

Firstly: Yeah, have to agree with you.

 

Secondly: Well.. I did finish PoE, finally, last summer.
Here's what I thought about it back then.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86994-a-kickstarter-backers-first-playthrough-and-some-thoughts/

 

On the other hand, I still haven't finished Dragon Age: Inquisition, or gotten more than 2 hours into Witcher 2.

 

And yeah, that's two incomplete playthroughs of PoE for me,

neither time did I touch the mercenaries and master boss superwizard quest, the first playthrough skipped

much of side content and white march. While the second play skipped to white march and didn't continue

the main plot to twin elms (this latter play was the more enjoyable one BTW).

[Aleh1811]

I actually have some problems finishing the game as well. I did twin elms after the white march 1 and 2 and thought the quality of twin elms was way worse that what I found at the white march. I have read some reviews complaining that the white march was just more of the same, but for me it was noticeable better than the than game.

[PizzaSHARK]

The idea that spellpower and fighting prowess are linked to an internal drive separate from brawn and intellect is a pretty cool idea, philosophically speaking, and it makes for better gameplay honestly. Intellect being a stat that hones in the precision with which some abilities are performed is a neat idea. A mage with lots of might may well eradicate everything more effectively, but a smart mage can blow something up while honing the spell to protect his buddies.

 

It's a neat idea. How can you hate it except as a mere break from the tradition of int being ~*ThE CaStEr StAt*~?

 

Because it just makes sense?  Wizards hone their craft through study and experimentation, which would be tied to Intelligence.  Intelligence, together with Wisdom, function as a value of both the character's overall ingenuity and intelligence, as well as their mental fortitude and strength.

 

The objections come from Obsidian trying to fix something that wasn't broken to begin with.  The reason the six stats thing has endured for so long, in the way it has (since 3E), is because it just works.  Don't fix what isn't broken.

[Fenixp]

Because it just makes sense?

I still love this sentence being used for how magic works :-P Well it doesn't work quite like that on Eora.

 

Don't fix what isn't broken.

I'm quite sure that specifics of what strength actually influences changed from edition to edition of DnD, so it never really did work, did it?

[MortyTheGobbo]

The six stats have only endured in D&D; every other RPG, tabletop or video game, has tried different ways of expressing them. Pillars of Eternity tries to make attributes more broadly appicable than "fighter needs strength, wizard needs intelligence". "Don't fix what isn't broken" sounds nice, but it's a pretty stubborn obstacle to getting new, interesting things. If anything, I'd argue it doesn't do enough.

 

But, like I said here or elsehwere - the only remotely controversial part of PoE's attribute system is the way Might works in conversations and scripted interactions. Everything else is absolutely normal. And, frankly, PoE uses attributes in non-combat situations far more often than most RPGs, in my experience. Baldur's Gate, that people are so nostalgic about, practically never does it.

Edited April 13, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo