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I can understand how these new generations of people who have never done anything in the real world might not see that disconnect as problematic, but when like me you have intimately experienced the gritty reality of the world, you can no longer respect anything that is purely make-believe.

So um... What's the scale? How much of gritty reality do I need to experience? I live in a basement with my parents (they actually also live in the basement) and have never left for outside, I have my rats do my groceries, see. That means I can enjoy games like Torment: Tides of Numenera and Might attribute in Pillars of Eternity. Will I stop playing Torment if I now grab an axe and chop down a tree for I will be touched by the gritty reality?

 

On scale from 1 to 1000, how much of gritty reality did you experience to be able to accept much more obvious breaches of physics like people shooting flames out of their hands, calling for lightning, transforming into animals or continents that are formed completely illogically but get bothered by naming of an abstract statistic? If you fight in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, will that make you stop accepting mages? And if you then move to US police force and shoot a few people by accident, are any fantastical elements in your games impossible? I'm genuinely confused, never having experienced reality of any sort.

 

Seriously tho, there's not much more to be said after you pulling that. If you find your point validated on basis of believing to have more real-life experience than everybody else you know nothing about because they don't mind fantastical elements in make-believe videogame on a discussion board about fantastical make-believe videogames, well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Let me sign off with a nice song for calm evenings so that we can return to our regular scheduling.

 

You know, you being so touchy about this whole thing says a lot more about you than it does about me. I'm merely stating observable facts. If you now grab an axe and chop down a tree of sufficient size, I can guarantee that it will subtly change the way you see the world. If nothing else, you'll learn to appreciate chainsaws a whole lot more. All in all, I'd recommend you stop whining like a small child, your behavior so far isn't really worthy of a sentient being. If you can't even be bothered to create a serious response, don't bother responding at all. The best you can hope for when taking an approach like yours is preventing someone more mature who likes the system to come up with some actual reasoning to defend the new system, instead of this infantile whining about being offended.

 

The PoE stat system creates a disconnect between the game and reality <- fact. This disconnect alienates a significant number of players <- another fact. This isn't a new argument at all, and it will persist until the concept changes sufficiently as to not cause these problems. By not respecting it and the people behind the argument, you're simply showing that there is an incredibly despicable sentiment behind the argument in favor of the nature of the Might stat, even if it is only the sentiment of the loudmouth minority in the 'for' camp. This doesn't do any favors to your views.

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You imply that D&D had a more "gender realistic" system, so allow me to quote to you from the first edition of the Dungeons and Dragons Player Handbook, page six. Here Gary Gygax (the father of the RPG) states that players will find "baseless limits arbitrarily placed on female strength”. Not just that, but Gygax also famously dismissed the RPG as an accurate simulation of anything, rather stating that is "dismal failure" at depicting realism. Finally, there has been plenty of empirical evidence of women being able to become strong as men. Or to relate it more closely to the topic, take a look at Samantha Swords, two time world longsword champion

 

 

No I don't, I'm implying that the motivation behind this new approach was the false assumption that it would create a more "gender neutral" system. There is a huge difference, and as I've said countless times, the gender issue isn't that interesting to me anyway. It just keeps coming up because people are so hysterical about that gender politics bull**** in this day and age. My argument is, was, and always has been, that D&D stat concepts are firmly rooted in reality, PoE stat concepts are not, and this is a problem for PoE. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by Ninjamestari
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By not respecting (...) the people behind the argument, you're simply showing that there is an incredibly despicable sentiment behind the argument

your behavior so far isn't really worthy of a sentient being

Hmmm.

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid
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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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By not respecting (...) the people behind the argument, you're simply showing that there is an incredibly despicable sentiment behind the argument

your behavior so far isn't really worthy of a sentient being

Hmmm.

 

 

I like how you even cut the sentence in order to quote even more out of context. Like I've said before, if you are trying to be an **** on purpose, at least make the attempt at wit.

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I like how you even cut the sentence in order to quote even more out of context. Like I've said before, if you are trying to be an **** on purpose, at least make the attempt at wit.

If you feel I've misrepresented you, by all means, please do explain how we should reconcile the sentiment that we should "respect people behind arguments" (or else "show that there's an incredibly despicable sentiment" behind our words) with "but I am free to imply that people who disagree with me do so because they're sub-sentient basement dwellers". Or should only the people who make the right kind of arguments be respected?

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid
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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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I like how you even cut the sentence in order to quote even more out of context. Like I've said before, if you are trying to be an **** on purpose, at least make the attempt at wit.

If you feel I've misrepresented you, by all means, please do explain how we should reconcile the sentiment that we should "respect people behind arguments" (or else "show that there's an incredibly despicable sentiment" behind our words) with "but I am free to imply that people who disagree with me do so because they're sub-sentient basement dwellers". Or should only the people who make the right kind of arguments be respected?

 

 

If you hadn't so clearly demonstrated your own disingenuous motives, both now and in the past, I might even do that. You have a history of quoting me out of context, you don't like me and you do not like my views, and you have proven that this renders you incapable of discussing anything with me in an honest manner.

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Uh-oh spaghetti-o's! Looks like were veering back into the realm of personal attacks. Lets try to stay focused on the posts and not the posters. Feel free to expose its falshood! Burn it to the ground with reason and fact! Salt the earth where it stood so it may never grow root again! But! Theres no reason to attack others on a personal level. Please.

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If you hadn't so clearly demonstrated your own disingenuous motives, both now and in the past, I might even do that. You have a history of quoting me out of context, you don't like me and you do not like my views, and you have proven that this renders you incapable of discussing anything with me in an honest manner.

 

 

 

Funny you should say that, because the way I remember the last time you pulled this "I'm the real victim here, cruelly bullied by the thugs of this forum" ploy, the reaction ended up to be a resounding "well actually, the **** was inside you all along (what a twist)".

 

(I also find it amusing that the exact same thing for which you're being called out laughed at now, namely demanding respect while treating everyone with contempt practically dripping from every post seemed to be at the crux of the issue even back then.)

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid
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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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If you hadn't so clearly demonstrated your own disingenuous motives, both now and in the past, I might even do that. You have a history of quoting me out of context, you don't like me and you do not like my views, and you have proven that this renders you incapable of discussing anything with me in an honest manner.

 

 

 

Funny you should say that, because the way I remember the last time you pulled this "I'm the real victim here, cruelly bullied by the thugs of this forum" ploy, the reaction ended up to be a resounding "well actually, the **** was inside you all along (what a twist)".

 

(I also find it amusing that the exact same thing for which you're being called out laughed at now, namely demanding respect while treating everyone with contempt practically dripping from every post seemed to be at the crux of the issue even back then.)

 

 

Funny how it's you who keeps derailing threads I take part in. I know you're used to being able to bully people into submission, it's what you're trying to do right now, and trying to even claim group authority. You're barely holding your hate at bay, even emphasizing your venom with italics on occasion, you never discuss the actual points without resorting to personal attacks. If you want to avoid being treated with contempt, then might I advise making an effort not to appear so contemptible. Arguing honestly about the points at hand instead of being on the prowl for controversy just so you can jump in and attack people would be a beginning. Not being so utterly contemptuous yourself would be another excellent starting point.

 

You've played your hand in derailing yet another conversation, a conversation you didn't even partake in. I hope you're proud of yourself.

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Funny how it's you who keeps derailing threads I take part in. I know you're used to being able to bully people into submission, it's what you're trying to do right now, and trying to even claim group authority. You're barely holding your hate at bay, even emphasizing your venom with italics on occasion, you never discuss the actual points without resorting to personal attacks. If you want to avoid being treated with contempt, then might I advise making an effort not to appear so contemptible. Arguing honestly about the points at hand instead of being on the prowl for controversy just so you can jump in and attack people would be a beginning. Not being so utterly contemptuous yourself would be another excellent starting point.

 

 

 

Man, talk about projecting  :lol:

 

I'm deeply sorry that people disagreeing with you or pointing out that your behavior isn't particularly conducive to the honest and constructive discussion you never fail to claim to want while actively working towards making impossible triggers you so much. I promise that I will be more considerate toward your feelings in the future and work hard to make this forum a safe space for you.

 

However, I can't help but notice that the crux of your complaint seems to be that I am a terrible person with an axe to grind against you, and therefore the way you interact with me shouldn't be seen as representative of how you normally behave - but, as you've so astutely pointed out, I haven't participated in the thread, yet the moment I glanced at it, the first thing I saw was you throwing accusations of disrespect at a bunch of folks while all but calling them subhuman in the same breath. May I humbly venture that the unusually high percentage of people on these forums with whom you seem to be having a... let's just call it "contempt problem" might have an explanation other than "they're vile bullies who can't abide truth and beauty", and indeed, given their number, Occam's razor would suggest that this explanation also has something to do with your own behavior?

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid
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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Man, talk about projecting  :lol:

 

I'm deeply sorry that people disagreeing with you or pointing out that your behavior isn't particularly conducive to the honest and constructive discussion you never fail to claim to want while actively working towards making impossible triggers you so much. I promise that I will be more considerate toward your feelings in the future and work hard to make this forum a safe space for you.

 

However, I can't help but notice that the crux of your complaint seems to be that I am a terrible person with an axe to grind against you, and therefore the way you interact with me shouldn't be seen as representative of how you normally behave - but, as you've so astutely pointed out, I haven't participated in the thread yet the moment I glanced at it, the first thing I saw was you throwing accusations of disrespect at a bunch of folks while all but calling them subhuman in the same breath. May I humbly venture that the unusually high percentage of people on these forums with whom you seem to be having a... let's just call it "contempt problem" might have an explanation other than "they're vile bullies who can't abide truth and beauty", and indeed, given their number, Occam's razor would suggest that this explanation also has something to do with your own behavior?

 

 

I can't help but notice you're still derailing the thread. If you pay attention to how I act, I do respect respectable people. You know, people who actually contribute their genuine thoughts on the subject matter instead of starting arguments that have nothing to do with anything. You have made it abundantly clear that your intentions are not to contribute to the discussion, and thus your only motivation is bullying those you don't like, and sadly you're smart enough that you're able to try to virtue signal while doing so. It's a sad sight to see an intelligent individual stoop to such moral lows.

Edited by Ninjamestari

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I can't help but notice you're still derailing the thread. If you pay attention to how I act, I do respect respectable people. You know, people who actually contribute their genuine thoughts on the subject matter instead of starting arguments that have nothing to do with anything. You have made it abundantly clear that your intentions are not to contribute to the discussion, and thus your only motivation is bullying those you like, and sadly you're smart enough that you're able to try to virtue signal while doing so. It's a sad sight to see an intelligent individual stoop to such moral lows.

 

 

Indeed, "bullying those I like" is a favorite pastime of mine. You caught me!  :yes:

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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I can't help but notice you're still derailing the thread. If you pay attention to how I act, I do respect respectable people. You know, people who actually contribute their genuine thoughts on the subject matter instead of starting arguments that have nothing to do with anything. You have made it abundantly clear that your intentions are not to contribute to the discussion, and thus your only motivation is bullying those you like, and sadly you're smart enough that you're able to try to virtue signal while doing so. It's a sad sight to see an intelligent individual stoop to such moral lows.

 

 

Indeed, "bullying those I like" is a favorite pastime of mine. You caught me!  :yes:

 

 

A typo, although in your case it might even be accurate.

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A typo, although in your case it might even be accurate.

 

A true tsundere is what I am, consumed by passion just for you, apparently   :lol:

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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A typo, although in your case it might even be accurate.

 

A true tsundere is what I am, consumed by passion just for you, apparently   :lol:

 

 

So you were smart enough to make a tactical retreat before exposing your nature. I was kinda hoping you weren't, you've obviously been doing this a long time. Well, at least you did step up on the wit department, wit is the separating factor between a worthy verbal sparring and a worthless ****storm. 

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For someone so concerned about derailing the thread, you sure seems to be okay with pointless grandstanding  :lol:

 

"Begone, demon! I cast thee into the abyss, revealing the wickedness of thy true nature!"

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid
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"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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For someone so concerned about derailing the thread, you sure seems to be okay with pointless grandstanding  :lol:

 

"Begone, demon! I cast thee into the abyss, revealing the wickedness of thy true nature!"

What's the point of banishing you now that you've been tamed? ^^

 

EDIT: ok, this has gone on long enough. Since you're no longer simply attacking me out of spite and this has turned into a sport, I think the actual conversation can take on from here. I won't follow this side-rail any further.

Edited by Ninjamestari

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There is no "pure fantasy" concept. One can never create something imaginary that has no connection to reality because imagination is part of ones personality that is shaped by their experience and surroundings. So, every fantasy setting, as much fantastic as it might be, is based on how its creator views the world and what their beliefs and opinions are.

 

Personally, I love Pillars' setting. It's one of the things the developers knew exactly how it's gonna be, and that's because it was the director's vision.

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Yeah, no, sorry Ninja, but it oddly seems you wish for a game that is a life simulator.

Which would mean no (flying) dragons or giant insects or various other fantastical creatures with impossible anatomies, the major cause of death being disease and infection, a hugely complicated sleep/water/food system, and equipment damage. That sounds like a game that would be so tedious that playing it becomes a chore.

 

Only because you see the limitations. It would impose a reduction in your agency. I'm currently working on a different approach to this.

Instead of these things become chores to deal with, you could build gameplay around it.

These limitations only work if they're related to the gameplay. if it's any-time management of your gear by clicking on a button that consumes an item which then repairs your gear, that's lame. If you need to complete an in-game challenge in order to influence your success, that might be engaging. I'm not yet ready to share too much of what I've been preparing, but I am very eager to see what Obsidian would think of it sometime.

 

I'm going to make chores engaging.

 

I'm also opting out of this thread, I'm sure there is enough in this thread to consider your own ideas and share them in a different one.

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You do understand that there's this gray area between a reality simulator and a completely ludicrous make-believe? PoE exists somewhere in that gray area, as does every single fantasy game. If you're trying to be an ass on purpose, you could at least try to do it with some wit.

 

No, I honestly had that thought for a moment. Didn't mean any offence mate, sorry.

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It would be of small avail to talk of magic in the air...

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Yeah, no, sorry Ninja, but it oddly seems you wish for a game that is a life simulator.

 

Which would mean no (flying) dragons or giant insects or various other fantastical creatures with impossible anatomies, the major cause of death being disease and infection, a hugely complicated sleep/water/food system, and equipment damage. That sounds like a game that would be so tedious that playing it becomes a chore.

Only because you see the limitations. It would impose a reduction in your agency. I'm currently working on a different approach to this.

Instead of these things become chores to deal with, you could build gameplay around it.

These limitations only work if they're related to the gameplay. if it's any-time management of your gear by clicking on a button that consumes an item which then repairs your gear, that's lame. If you need to complete an in-game challenge in order to influence your success, that might be engaging. I'm not yet ready to share too much of what I've been preparing, but I am very eager to see what Obsidian would think of it sometime.

 

I'm going to make chores engaging.

 

I'm also opting out of this thread, I'm sure there is enough in this thread to consider your own ideas and share them in a different one.

If you can make chores entertaining, then please, come and fix my life:-P

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More or less, yes. Shouldn't be that difficult to fix; get rid of precision and add wits to handle spell power, add in some secondary property for both so that they're universally useful and voilà, problem solved and no one has to listen to these sorts of arguments ever again. Everyone is happy.

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More or less, yes. Shouldn't be that difficult to fix; get rid of precision and add wits to handle spell power, add in some secondary property for both so that they're universally useful and voilà, problem solved and no one has to listen to these sorts of arguments ever again. Everyone is happy.

 

It's not a problem that needs to be solved. It works fine just the way it is, albeit with some tweaking and fine tuning.

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The controversy over attributes feels like it begins and ends on Might. Because every other attribute more or less does what it always does in RPGs.

Might does as well, except it applies to damage with crossbows, firearms, and magic instead of having no attribite benefit damage or splitting off magic into some other stat. As a system it works, if anything the attributes that need work is Resolve and maybe Perception, everything else is clear and useful.

 

Anyways I finished PoE+WM last night. Overall I'll say I felt it was an improvement from 1.x, the only quests I didn't finish were the bounties and combat felt nicer and either they changed something or you can get back to a certain city after a certain point in the game. Did get signifigantly easier late game though. Main issue I had was the pacing, Act 2 feels loaded while Act 3 feels very sparse in comparison and more quests like Champion of Berath would have been nice to give more content to Act 3 as well as puttig WM2 behind that event. Bounties should have moved some to Act1 and 2, a big reason why I didn't complete them was because they were gated off till close to the end and my party hit max level anyways. Theres also mechanical issues with the classes, but thankfully none of them were near as bad as a single class thief. Overall I'll say this run was a hell of a lot more fun than my first and I'm looking forward to multiclassing in Deadfire. I did play with the IE mod though.

 

Oh and what do we import from? My game has an auto-save right before the final fight and the choices made right after that seem important. IE mod with autosaves every 30 minutes.

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

"I'm fine with humanity being wiped out" - majestic

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