List of Subclasses as we learn about them.

[MaxQuest]

The extra bonuses that specialist Wizards get nice* but I'm still not sure whether they are worth losing access to two other schools. I wonder why Obsidian went with removing access to two schools rather than AD&D's one school.

Agreed, banning two schools outright seems a lil too much.

On the other hand wizards can only use 2 spells of each rank per encounter, so the builds will likely end up highly specialized. Plus we have to see first how big is the power_level bonus for the spells of the selected school.

 

* The Evoker's and Illusionist's look to be the best, the Conjurer's could be very good depending on how good their familiars are, the Enchanter's needs to be able to clear more than just Hobble to be worth it in my opinion and as cool as the Tramsuter's sounds I suspect it won't be great.

Agreed. Enchanter's Free Action in it's current form looks kinda weak.

Illusionist's free Mirrored Image is probably ok, as it will also be useful for some wizard offtanks.

Evoker's echo could be interesting if the chance is high enough. Plus it was told that some empowers could also refund a spell/ability usage cost. So there might be a chance for recursive spamming for free.

As for Transmuter, Ogre should retain current weapon / weapon + shield, or benefit from Novice Suffering in order to be useful on PotD. Or at the very least make this Hulk retain weapons if they deal crushing damage.

 

Delay is the best I can come up with, though it's still not great.

Delay would make me think of some waiting before the actual action, not after, so yeah...

The recovery in PoE is like catching a breath after doing something that takes effort. A recuperation of sorts.

 

Btw it would be funny if first n actions would have lower recovery duration. n being influenced by CON, DEX and RES. Although forget it, just a random thought

Edited September 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[injurai]

As for alternative names for recovery..: recreation, repose, inter-action rest, procrastination... nothing comes to mind that sounds good and fitting enough

 

Respite, rebound, recoup, breather, lull.

[MaxQuest]

Respite, rebound, recoup, breather, lull.

I learn a new word everyday on this forum)

 

Btw, grats with the 1000th post

[JerekKruger]

Agreed, banning two schools outright seems a lil too much.

On the other hand wizards can only use 2 spells of each rank per encounter, so the builds will likely end up highly specialized. Plus we have to see first how big is the power_level bonus for the spells of the selected school.

 

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see to know exactly how much of a penalty it is, it just feels like a big one.

 

Illusionist's free Mirrored Image is probably ok, as it will also be useful for some wizard offtanks.

 

That's true. If it's a spell that you would cast anyway then it saves you a cast and the time it would take to cast. Not a bad ability. For non-tanky Wizards I suspect it'll be less good.

 

Delay would make me think of some waiting before the actual action, not after, so yeah...

The recovery in PoE is like catching a breath after doing something that takes effort. A recuperation of sorts.

 

Honestly recovery is probably as good as any other option. Obsidian just have to make sure they explain what it is and how modifiers affect it more clearly.

 

Btw it would be funny if first n actions would have lower recovery duration. n being influenced by CON, DEX and RES. Although forget it, just a random thought 

 

Or your Athletics skill perhaps?

Edited September 22, 2017 by JerekKruger

[ShadySands]

 

The extra bonuses that specialist Wizards get nice* but I'm still not sure whether they are worth losing access to two other schools. I wonder why Obsidian went with removing access to two schools rather than AD&D's one school.

Agreed, banning two schools outright seems a lil too much.

On the other hand wizards can only use 2 spells of each rank per encounter, so the builds will likely end up highly specialized. Plus we have to see first how big is the power_level bonus for the spells of the selected school.

 

Not really surprised that they have (a lot) more drawbacks (loss of an extra school and longer recovery for non specialized school) than their D&D counterparts as I believe it was Gromnir who said to temper expectations because of Josh's approach to subclasses/kits from some earlier game.

[FlintlockJazz]

The extra bonuses that specialist Wizards get nice* but I'm still not sure whether they are worth losing access to two other schools. I wonder why Obsidian went with removing access to two schools rather than AD&D's one school.

 

* The Evoker's and Illusionist's look to be the best, the Conjurer's could be very good depending on how good their familiars are, the Enchanter's needs to be able to clear more than just Hobble to be worth it in my opinion and as cool as the Tramsuter's sounds I suspect it won't be great.

 

As for alternative names for recovery..: recreation, repose, inter-action rest, procrastination... nothing comes to mind that sounds good and fitting enough

 

Delay is the best I can come up with, though it's still not great.

Actually in tabletop AD&D it was two (or even three for some) schools that were banned for specialist mages.  Only Diviners got one school banned and that was because their speciality school was rather lacklastre. 

 

One thing I have learned also is that just because a bonus and a penalty are equal in 'value' (like a -5 to lockpicking for a disadvantage and a +5 to lockpicking for a advantage) does not make them equal in value: if you are taking the penalty then its because you don't intend to invest or deal with the things the disadvantage applies to anyway, so you are unlikely to suffer that much from it while taking an advantage is because it benefits the things you do intend to do and develop.  Take the aforementioned lockpicking examples, if you take the bonus its because you are creating a lockpicker and will be using it as much as you can, while if you take the penalty you don't want to use lockpicking on this character and so won't be bothering with it anyway.  Therefore, to equalise them you need to take more penalties or greater penalties than the corresponding bonuses.  Of course, there are exceptions and all that, not a hard and fast rule, but having looked at this in games with point-buy character creation like GURPS you will often see the equivalent disadvantages either don't give as much points as the advantages cost or the penalty is greater.

[Silent Winter]

 

Are you sure transmuter lose access to his own school?

Oops, corrected)

 

---

As for alternative names for recovery..: recreation, repose, inter-action rest, procrastination... nothing comes to mind that sounds good and fitting enough

 

Procrastination! yes - that should be the name....or maybe something else?  Hmm, I'll decide later

 

Liking the looks of these subclasses

[MaxQuest]

One thing I have learned also is that just because a bonus and a penalty are equal in 'value' (like a -5 to lockpicking for a disadvantage and a +5 to lockpicking for a advantage) does not make them equal in value: if you are taking the penalty then its because you don't intend to invest or deal with the things the disadvantage applies to anyway, so you are unlikely to suffer that much from it while taking an advantage is because it benefits the things you do intend to do and develop.

Exactly)

 

That's why I don't really worry for the school locking.

Not to mention that in PoE1 there are ~93 wizard spells. Even if the total number is shrinked to ~75 spells, and 2 schools out of 5 are locked, that would be 45 spells to choose from.

 

The thing I don't like though, is that ex-vancian classes learn way too few spells on level-up. And if wizard can partially work it out via grimoires, druids and priests seem to be starving. Not to mention that they are already gated by low amount of spell-usages per rank. That being said, it would be nice if we could find/research a few occasional scrolls found around the world or received as quest rewards, and thus learn 5-7 spells extra over the game's duration.

Edited September 23, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Dr <3]

But is confirmed that you gain only 1 spell on lvl up? Maybe it can just be like chiper powers in poe1: you alternate by choosing 1 or 2 new powers every level. In that case the problem would have been much more mitigated.

 

Edit: moreover in poe 1 there was a lot of "extra x lvl spell" talent, maybe there will be something like that to spice up the mixture

Edited September 23, 2017 by Dr <3

[MaxQuest]

But is confirmed that you gain only 1 spell on lvl up? Maybe it can just be like chiper powers in poe1: you alternate by choosing 1 or 2 new powers every level. In that case the problem would have been much more mitigated.

It wasn't confirmed in a direct sentence, but it is implied by the combination of these two tumblr posts (one, two) with this progression table.

 

Edit: moreover in poe 1 there was a lot of "extra x lvl spell" talent, maybe there will be something like that to spice up the mixture

There were "Bonus xth Level Spell" talents which would grant you an extra spell-usage. It's great, and I will be taking it (for Shinning Beacon/Shadowflame/Confusion probably); but it doesn't make you learn a new spell) Edited September 23, 2017 by MaxQuest

[morhilane]

But is confirmed that you gain only 1 spell on lvl up? Maybe it can just be like chiper powers in poe1: you alternate by choosing 1 or 2 new powers every level. In that case the problem would have been much more mitigated.

 

Edit: moreover in poe 1 there was a lot of "extra x lvl spell" talent, maybe there will be something like that to spice up the mixture

 

This table and video shown in the multiclass II update and a few of Josh's explanations to building a battlemage on his tumblr extremely suggest it.

 

Spells share the same UI and share the +1 per level class ability cost at level up with class talents (and going by the battlemage example, general talents as well, because I do not believe Weapon&Shield is exclusive to the Fighter).

 

That means you can have a max of 20 spells for single classed or 27 for certain multiclassed combo, if you do not take a single talent. 

 

Take the Monk/Wizard in the multiclass video: it has 6 monk abilities and 16 spells, so a total of 22 visible class abilities. The top spell level is 7th, that means the character is level 19th or 20th. Wizard have grimoires that add spells (only 4 I believe?).

 

Monk/Wizard without grimoire: 6 +16 = 22, (4)5 other talents were taken

Monk/Wizard with grimoire: 6 + 12= 18, (6)7 other talents were taken

 

Cast per spell level was reduced to 2 too, so a max level multiclassed character will be able to cast 14 spells per encounter, while a pure class will be able to use 18.

Edited September 23, 2017 by morhilane

[Heijoushin]

This thread can now be updated with all the wizard and monk subclasses (recently revealed in the video).

 

I thought the Transmuter wizard class was particularly interesting. You can turn into an orge! That sounds like a fun ability for a low level wizard. 

[JerekKruger]

Not just Wizard and monk, the update contains a list of all subclasses along with brief descriptions.

[Boeroer]

I really hope that the ogre levels with you, can profit from self buffs like Martial Power and maybe even retains the weapons (armor and headgear might be suicidal ). Otherwise it would only be a nice gimmik at game start and then it would be moot. Like the ranger's pet and druid's spiritshift were in PoE1 until they patched them.

Cool builds you could do if that ogre form was implemented properly: Ogre/monk, ogre/barb, ogre/beckoner (having your own ogre clan) even ogre/shapeshifter. Awesome idea to give the Transmuter this ability. Hopefully it's not poorly done. But will will have the beta to test this...

Edited September 24, 2017 by Boeroer

[Climhazzard]

https://eternity.obsidian.net/news/pillars-of-eternity-ii-deadfire-update-40---multiclassing-part-ii

 

• Helwalker - Begin all combats with Wounds, gain Might for every Wound. Wounds require more damage to acquire.

I feel like Helwalker like this would be the go to multi class option for passive builds, retaliation, chanter burning, whatever, if it stays like this.

 

With all these options for sub classes and multi classing I'll probably never be able to finish this game because I'll be stuck in an infinite rerolling loop to try out different combinations.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Climhazzard

[Boeroer]

Yes, it sounds like a great subclass for a Fire Godlike and to multiclass it with a priest in order to stack the MIG bonus with Aggrandizing Radiance + Minor Avatar, or with a Berserker or Streetfighter.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

IIRC from the video the Helwalker also takes extra damage while wounded.

[MaxQuest]

Yeap, the Helwalker, Nalpazka and wizard subclasses do appear slightly different in update #40 video in comparison to update's post.

 

In case of Helwalker - he takes 5% extra damage per wound he has. So that Might bonus comes at a hefty cost.

On the other hand this subclass is not limited to being melee. He can:

- either grab 10 wounds in melee, re-dislocate to backline and use Long Pain

- or be ranged from the start, and get wounds from one of our own AoE; especially provided that there is no longer health limit, and with such MIG he can cast even more potent healing spells (not to say DoTs..)

[Boeroer]

But this you can counter with Iron Wheel I guess...?

 

If there's still Triumph of the Crusaders in the game then he will have no problems...

Edited September 24, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

But this you can counter with Iron Wheel I guess...?

 

Iron Wheel + Fire Godlike + multiclassed to Street Fighter seems like a potentially interesting combination.

[Boeroer]

Exactly. Or like I said: priest if the MIG bonus stacks with Minor Avatar. Imagine Shining Beacon with +18 or even +20 MIG.

[Dr <3]

The only thing i "miss" is that since there is a "reverse monk" ( gain wounds doing dmg) i would have like to see a "reverse chiper" ( gain focus as you get dmg).

 

Obviusly i'm already thinking about how to adapt the monk retaliation build to deadfire

[injurai]

The only thing i "miss" is that since there is a "reverse monk" ( gain wounds doing dmg) i would have like to see a "reverse chiper" ( gain focus as you get dmg).

 

Obviusly i'm already thinking about how to adapt the monk retaliation build to deadfire .

 

Which would particularly synergize with melee pain link builds. Could be too strong.

[MaxQuest]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165869605726/am-i-wrong-or-is-the-ascendant-better-than-base

Ascendants’ effective Power Level is lower when they aren’t at Max Focus. So if you want to use any power when you aren’t maxed out, it’s strictly worse than if it were used by a pure cipher.

Surprise...

[morhilane]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165869605726/am-i-wrong-or-is-the-ascendant-better-than-base

Ascendants’ effective Power Level is lower when they aren’t at Max Focus. So if you want to use any power when you aren’t maxed out, it’s strictly worse than if it were used by a pure cipher.

Surprise...

 

It's like the last update wasn't up-to-date. So many stuff missing from the sub-class one liners.

 

I'm starting to think that the Darcozzi Paladini are really 3 level behind* everyone else all the time for a pitiful Fire Shield on Lay on Hand at this point (I was speculating that it was just their zeal resource that was lower and not their power level).

 

On top of it, it is starting to look like the Wizard specializations don't have enough negatives for their positives. They get to keep casting their specialized spells at 3 level higher (Empowered) all the time at no cost. The school restrictions just limit how you can use the specialized Wizards, not their effectiveness.

 

All that tells me is that the "power level" effectiveness increase is going to be marginal, otherwise all the subclass with lower power level most of the time are going to be dead ends (and we know Josh doesn't like dead ends).

 

*-1 power level = -2/-3 class level depending of the level range, although power level stagnate a bit as your class level up so they are just 1 power level behind all the time.

Edited September 30, 2017 by morhilane