RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

[Gromnir]

 

will leave the rest, but we thought that were funny... 'cause nobody who had ever played pnp d&d, or most any d&d crpg game, ever would have been stymied by bg2 trolls... which, btw, were in iwd (a black isle game) first outta the ie games.

 

unforeseeable immunities or defenses is jackarse stoopid. HA! Good Fun!

The example Luckman gave was NOT about unforeseeable immunities or defences. Was it, Gromnir. It was about Trolls. Specifically, trolls in the IE games...who won't die unless you use the fire and acid equipment that those games flood you with in the beginning of the very same dungeon/area where you encounter them.. BG2 even takes it a step further, throwing NPCs and load screens in your face who's only in-game purpose is to bark out instructions, like: "Make sure you use fire or acid on those trolls, or they'll get up again, Player!"

 

you gotta learn to read your own posts before posting them.  is wacky. 

 

"I'm talking about the trolls of Baldur's Gate 2, that frustrated everyone the first time they met them, unless you already knew you needed fire or acid."

 

that is his quote.  is a quote where he specific notes that the problem o' trolls evaporates with knowledge.  so, suggesting that the issue presented is Not one regarding unforeseeable defenses is ridiculous.  though why he would choose one o' the best known d&d  critters with a special defense is completely beyond our understanding.  

 

...

 

am begining to think that the reason we have difficulty communicating with you is simple that you don't read posts before responding... or are a bit slow.  the fact that luckman liked your post reveals some peculiarities 'bout him as well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zepposlav]

I doubt the game would be praised that much if it was made by less popular game developer.

[Rhaeg]

Hmm, now that review was a bit harshly written, but I have to agree with many observations that were made in it as well. Overall, I like PoE and I'd definitely support a sequel. I do have to admit that the game did not live up to my expectations and even though they were high they were not over the top, I think. I've already quit my second playthrough of PoE because at the moment I have lost interest. Main reasons for this:

 

- I know the story of the game now, including companion stories and though it wasn't bad I wasn't incredibly impressed by it either. The setting and the entire soul business has a lot of potential, but for the most part of the game I had no idea what the antagonist's motives were and when I finally found out at the very end I was thinking: "Ok, well I can't be very mad at this dude. And should I care about the status of the gods?" I think me not caring that much at the end largely had something to do with the execution of the story. There just weren't many impactful moments during the course of the main quest: nothing really shocking happened (ok, the end of the Defiance Bay act perhaps) and I just felt like I was completing quests, nothing special. Then how they did those "visions of the past" was very underwhelming too - inferior to how the old BG dream sequences were implemented. They could have done way more to visualise those.

- Character creation seemed nice at first, but I have to agree with the reviewer about especially the skills and talents being mostly uninteresting and/or useless. There are not really that many spells that you need to use and at least on hard difficulty only a few are useful at all (CC mostly).

- Combat does get a bit repetitive after a while and is mostly about positioning and having the right character classes in your party. Is that strategy/tactics? The positioning is, but from a game with tactical combat as a selling point I expected more. Very rarely did I have to make important decisions like: do I take out the archer in the back first or do I need to do something about the melee guy attacking my tank from behind first? 

- If you add something to a game, do it right. Especially crafting was lackluster and it even hurts the enjoyment you get from nice treasure while you can easily craft it all anyway. The stronghold was underdeveloped too. There's really not much you can do there other than rebuild the ruined structures. And why did we have a reputation system with a couple of factions? Where are the reputation vendors? What are consequences of a faction getting mad at you? Special quests for high reputation?

 

These would be my own problems I see with PoE. Luckily, the game has many good points too, so like I said I'll definitely support a sequel.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Rhaeg

[archangel979]

I hope Obsidian reads this post of mine and fixes pathfinding during combat. I use standard 2-2-2 formation and back line cannot pass through the middle to get into range of the spell I want to cast. They run around and in place and embarrass the developers that coded pathfinding.

[Lightzy]

This review is 100% correct on 100% of the game.

 

This game is the one of the biggest disappointments I've had, and it's all down to the complete impotence of whoever designed its game systems.

The art is nice, the dialogue, the writing, the plot is nice up to a point (sucks compared to good games though), but the SYSTEM is so utterly and stupidly bad that I just can't bring myself to play it anymore until it is fixed ,and of course never buy another obsidian game before waiting a little to see how it's reviewed.

 

quote from the review:

"Now consider these issues, play for a few hours, and you’ll suddenly get the revelation that you just keep doing the same **** all over again because that’s really the only way this game can be played, as enforced by its systems. You send a fat dude ahead, gather all the aggro, kill off the enemies that waste their time trying to hit the tank with a gazillion deflection, move on. Rinse and repeat for 40 hours straight."

[Zwiebelchen]

- If you add something to a game, do it right. Especially crafting was lackluster and it even hurts the enjoyment you get from nice treasure while you can easily craft it all anyway. The stronghold was underdeveloped too.

 

All these things were kickstarter stretchgoals. So it's not like they didn't want to cut this stuff; they had to deliver.

[WebShaman]

Bleat Obssheep bleat!

 

Baaaaaa! Baaaaa!

 

I just love how apologetic their posts are "Obs would have done X if the had more time" and the best one "I'm sure that Obs will do X"

 

*crickets*

 

*cue Kana's voice*

 

"Hello? Hello?"

 

Many of the mentioned failings are not fixable - they will have to be changed (and then rebalanced). That all costs (time+resources=zots).

 

And Obs just doesn't have enough to do that AND do the XP at the same time.

 

There were those of us (mostly shouted down by the Obssheep) that pointed most of these failings out in the beta and backer times.

 

You reap what you sow.

 

So bleat on.

 

The abso-****ing-lutely fantastic part of this is where this critic is posted and what following it reaches (far from all your powerless hooves and bleating).

 

It will affect sales.

 

I would normally hold out hope like a normal Obssheep, but I have been burnt too often by Obs in the past to do that anymore.

 

This is not what I wanted from the game when I backed it. This is not what I was promised.

 

And others are increasingly saying the same.

 

An XP will not fix it. Obs is not able financially to change it.

 

And I seriously doubt that there will be a PoE2.

[Stun]

you gotta learn to read your own posts before posting them.  is wacky. 

 

"I'm talking about the trolls of Baldur's Gate 2, that frustrated everyone the first time they met them, unless you already knew you needed fire or acid."

 

that is his quote.  is a quote where he specific notes that the problem o' trolls evaporates with knowledge.  so, suggesting that the issue presented is Not one regarding unforeseeable defenses is ridiculous.  though why he would choose one o' the best known d&d  critters with a special defense is completely beyond our understanding.  

 

...

 

am begining to think that the reason we have difficulty communicating with you is simple that you don't read posts before responding... or are a bit slow.  the fact that luckman liked your post reveals some peculiarities 'bout him as well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Why in the world would you bring up "unforeseeable immunities and defenses", when discussing trolls in the IE games?

[Jimmious]

Bleat Obssheep bleat!

 

Baaaaaa! Baaaaa!

 

I just love how apologetic their posts are "Obs would have done X if the had more time" and the best one "I'm sure that Obs will do X"

 

*crickets*

 

*cue Kana's voice*

 

"Hello? Hello?"

 

Many of the mentioned failings are not fixable - they will have to be changed (and then rebalanced). That all costs (time+resources=zots).

 

And Obs just doesn't have enough to do that AND do the XP at the same time.

 

There were those of us (mostly shouted down by the Obssheep) that pointed most of these failings out in the beta and backer times.

 

You reap what you sow.

 

So bleat on.

 

The abso-****ing-lutely fantastic part of this is where this critic is posted and what following it reaches (far from all your powerless hooves and bleating).

 

It will affect sales.

 

I would normally hold out hope like a normal Obssheep, but I have been burnt too often by Obs in the past to do that anymore.

 

This is not what I wanted from the game when I backed it. This is not what I was promised.

 

And others are increasingly saying the same.

 

An XP will not fix it. Obs is not able financially to change it.

 

And I seriously doubt that there will be a PoE2.

Dude are you like 10 years old? Obssheep? What the actual hell?

[Isi1dur]

Roxor is an IE fanboy stuck in the past, so this utterly negative review isn't surprising really, edgy for the sake of it while clearly trolling in certain parts (worst Obsidian game BS, "not D&D" options, abysmal writing bollocks), Codexian style more or less.

 

That being said....despite the fact that he sounds like a butthurt grognard who was seemingly expecting BG3 which didn't happen, he is absolutely on point regarding various issues this game currently has...atributes, terrible and most of all boring itemization, stronghold being a shell of what it could/should be, talents, engagement, party members AI or lack thereof with major pathfinding problems, buffing (although this also falls under the "subjective" category since some like it as is), crafting, endless dungeon not nearly living up to the hype.

 

Personally i love this game but objectively speaking it needs to be improved in every area mentioned above in order to achieve true greatness, luckily i believe that these improvements are more then doable.

 

He is 100% wrong about writing in my personal opinion, however anything said on the matter is somewhat subjective anyways, some will adore it, some won't, some will find it average, but one thing he nailed is the fact that the writers went to great lengths trying to be overly descriptive, leaving little to player's imagination, and that the lack of Avellone's major contribution shows.

 

All in all, some excellent points in a review which is also filled with loads of crap and is terrible overall when looked at as a whole because he obviously couldn't get over himself.

[Ineth]

2) They couldn't. All of these things were stretchgoals that they simply had to deliver due to the kickstarter contract rules.

I'm pretty sure there are no such contractually binding rules. Kickstarter pledges are glorified donations.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Acts 4 & 5 of BG2 completely walled you off from literally every place you had been prior.

 

Just sayin'.

 

No. Can you stop telling lies?

 

If Acts 4 & 5 walled you off from literally every place prior, then how come I can go back and do quests from Act 2 AFTER I do Act 5?

 

Just sayin'.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Monte Carlo]

 

Guten Tag!

 

Pardon me, but what exactly is the "RPGCodex"

 

It's 4Chan for neckbeards.

[archangel979]

 

Guten Tag!

 

Pardon me, but what exactly is the "RPGCodex"

 

It's 4Chan for neckbeards.

 

No it is not. They are just as easy to offend and call people troll as people here.

It is a undeserved reputation that some people try to spread.

Edited April 22, 2015 by archangel979

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

Guten Tag!

 

Pardon me, but what exactly is the "RPGCodex"

 

It's 4Chan for neckbeards.

 

No it is not. They are just as easy to offend and call people troll as people here.

It is a undeserved reputation that some people try to spread.

 

 

Would love to discuss this with you, but your post makes no sense.

[Monte Carlo]

Really? Where's that classy concentration camp art they like to proudly display to prove their 'edginess?'

[Rostere]

 

The titles I mentioned are definitely more old-school as in not aping a popular modern genre of the lowest common denominator (FPSs) as much as Fallout 3/ New Vegas does.

So there can't be an oldschool FPS?

 

Relative to other FPSs, of course.

 

The history of RPGs go back to tactical miniature games in the 70s. The first CRPGs, also from the seventies were top-down and similar to roguelikes, although Rogue itself was of course from 1980. Other, slightly later games starting with Oubliette were FPP blobbers, which despite their FPP have nothing to do with the FPS genre beyond the perspective of the game.

 

Although I do appreciate these subgenres of CRPGs, the type of CRPG I prefer is the one with top-down view and tactical combat, where you control several characters. This genre appeared in the 1980s.

 

Now first person shooters were popularized in 1992 by Wolfenstein 3D, the same year Ultima Underworld was released, which probably can be said to be the first true 3D FPP RPG that is more of an ARPG than a blobber. This branch would continuously diverge from the RPG genre until we got Fallout 3 in 2008, where gameplay is about as reliant on twitch reflexes as any shooter.

 

I prefer in general RPGs with top-down tactical view over first-person action RPGs. This genre is de facto older than the FPS genre, which is why it better deserves the label "old-school".

[Stun]

 

2) They couldn't. All of these things were stretchgoals that they simply had to deliver due to the kickstarter contract rules.

I'm pretty sure there are no such contractually binding rules. Kickstarter pledges are glorified donations.

 

In fact, Larian didn't hesitate to scrap the 10+ level megadungeon they promised their backers in a reached stretch goal the moment they discovered that taking the immense time and money to put it in the game would cause them to have to cut corners and half-ass everything else.

 

That stuff happens. Intelligent project managers simply take it on the chin, learn from it, and then do what's best for the game, even if it means they'll have to suffer a few whiners complaining about broken promises later on.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Stun

[archangel979]

 

 

 

Guten Tag!

 

Pardon me, but what exactly is the "RPGCodex"

 

It's 4Chan for neckbeards.

 

No it is not. They are just as easy to offend and call people troll as people here.

It is a undeserved reputation that some people try to spread.

 

 

Would love to discuss this with you, but your post makes no sense.

 

See, now you are channeling some of that Codex love.

[Althernai]

The reviewer is correct about many (perhaps even most) individual points, but he overestimates the impact of the flaws and some of the things he says are just plain wrong. Also, much of the stuff that makes the game good is either not mentioned at all or given a rather short shrift. The review is indeed more or less a hatchet job.

 

Out of the games I have played (Kotor 2), NWN2 and Pillars of Eternity I'd say it's worse than KotOR2, but maybe better than NWN2 at least in some ways, but worse in others.

Really? Are you talking about KOTOR2 with the fan-made mods that restore the missing content or the final release version? Because without fan-made content, that game was an unfinished mess and the mechanics were intrinsically an order of magnitude less complex than PoE. Even with the mods, I don't think it is better, but in the original condition I don't see much of a basis for debate.

 

If I had to rank Obsidian's full games, PoE would be at the top. Mask of the Betrayer is arguably better, but that's an expansion and thus of much smaller scope.

[Eisenheinrich]

Still nobody who explained, what's so important about that ugly ass message board? Is RPGcodex somewhat like the holy grail of CRPGs in the US? 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Eisenheinrich

[Gromnir]

 

you gotta learn to read your own posts before posting them.  is wacky. 

 

"I'm talking about the trolls of Baldur's Gate 2, that frustrated everyone the first time they met them, unless you already knew you needed fire or acid."

 

that is his quote.  is a quote where he specific notes that the problem o' trolls evaporates with knowledge.  so, suggesting that the issue presented is Not one regarding unforeseeable defenses is ridiculous.  though why he would choose one o' the best known d&d  critters with a special defense is completely beyond our understanding.  

 

...

 

am begining to think that the reason we have difficulty communicating with you is simple that you don't read posts before responding... or are a bit slow.  the fact that luckman liked your post reveals some peculiarities 'bout him as well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Why in the world would you bring up "unforeseeable immunities and defenses", when discussing trolls in the IE games?

 

...

 

slow it is.

 

*washes hands*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

 

 

2) They couldn't. All of these things were stretchgoals that they simply had to deliver due to the kickstarter contract rules.

I'm pretty sure there are no such contractually binding rules. Kickstarter pledges are glorified donations.

 

In fact, Larian didn't hesitate to scrap the 10+ level megadungeon they promised their backers in a reached stretch goal the moment they discovered that taking the immense time and money to put it in the game would cause them to have to cut corners and half-ass everything else.

 

That stuff happens. Intelligent project managers simply take it on the chin, learn from it, and then do what's best for the game, even if it means they'll have to suffer a few whiners complaining about broken promises later on.

 

 

Did they? I don't even remember, and I backed D:OS.

 

The moment the KS ended I knew the megadungeon would be a big problem. But I don't think anyone could reasonably have foreseen that it would be acceptable to tell backers, "hey it's not a good idea to actually make it." 

 

(The problem, arguably, was promising it in the first place. But that's one of the ways all first gen KS's went awry, from physical rewards to megadungeons.)

[Sensuki]

Really? Are you talking about KOTOR2 with the fan-made mods that restore the missing content or the final release version? Because without fan-made content, that game was an unfinished mess and the mechanics were intrinsically an order of magnitude less complex than PoE. Even with the mods, I don't think it is better, but in the original condition I don't see much of a basis for debate.

 

If I had to rank Obsidian's full games, PoE would be at the top. Mask of the Betrayer is arguably better, but that's an expansion and thus of much smaller scope.

It was unfinished yep, and yes the mechanics were less complex. Complex =/= good and despite the combat being super easy I was not bothered by it. In Pillars of Eternity it's just a boring repetitive slog. I prefer the KotOR2 characters, story and Chris Avellone's writing in general I think.

 

I also finished the game multiple times. So there's that.

 

MotB probably is better, but it uses the NWN2 engine and that game has terrible performance. I can't play games that have terrible performance.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Sensuki

[Monte Carlo]

'Hŵrpa Dwrp'

 

I try to be fair in all things, and to be fair this is actually a good gag. The po-faced over-seriousness / complexity of the setting gnaws at my patience too.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Monte Carlo