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RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

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Relative to other FPSs, of course.

 

I understand you can judge something to be old school by the age of the genre, but I don't understand why you would lay judgement on people's taste because they liked a game in another genre that worked instead of something like a broken, bugged and not even really old-school (it's third person action with some abilities) KOTOR2, for example.

 

:facepalm:

 

This entire discussion about what is old-school or not was a factual discussion about whether the Codex was old-school or not. Not my tastes (which are subjective and not as interesting to discuss). See my first post and pay attention in the future.

 

The Codex is often portrayed as being "elitist" or "old-school" when in reality it's not significantly more so than for example this forum. Specifically this review looks like something you would see on IGN. It certainly does not have any of the pretentiousness that people often accuse the Codex of. See also all the other stuff I mention in my first post in the thread.

 

The genre of KotOR 2 fits in theory into what I like although it is not the best example of it, so that's it. It's absolutely not an ARPG. Whether it's "bugged" or not matters little. Especially not since there are community patches to address those issues.

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"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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I know that BG1 is not an Obsidian game, this is not the point here. If even BG1 is mediocre then how many crpgs are worth playing?

I think he meant it's a mediocre Infinity Engine game when compared to Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape Torment.

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Some valid criticism aside, I find it a bit ironic that the review pretty much outs the guy as a min/max powergamer who puts up tanks and super casters (which doesn't work the same way as in D&D by the way as every stat affects every character class there is -- a high int Barbarian for instance has a much bigger range in his AoE abilities as well as a much longer duration of those). I thought the Codex was about putting back the "role" back into "RPGs"

What do you mean? That player has to forego character effectiveness in combat in a combat oriented game in favor of flavour options in dialogue?

 

 

 

Nah. It's just that the game isn't catering to these types of character sets exclusively. In parts, the character system is about avoiding that huge gap you can have between min/max chars and more balanced ones you'd find in a pen&paper, as attributes neglected will affect all types of characters. Plus, none of the companions are of that min/max type either -- if at all possible to do in PoE. The game may be focused on combat for most parts of the playing time, and that is all fairly well, but I still think there was, given the source, a bit of an irony in the assessment and analysis how you'd presumably have to pump certain stats to totally maximize efficiency.

Edited by Sven_

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Pardon me, but what exactly is the "RPGCodex" 

 

It's a wonderful cesspit. The deeper you sunk yourself into that ****, the less it stinks and the warmer it feels. ^^

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BG1 is superior to PoE in every single way expect mechanically.

 

see, is these kinda blanket generalizations that make folks look silly.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Well that's even better, if you summarize people's opinion here you get:

 

- BG1 was crap but better than BG2

- BG2 was crap but better than BG1

- PoE is crap because it's too similar to BG1, which is superior to BG2 but still crap nonetheless even if BG2 was the best IE game.

 

Now I'm waiting for: IWD 1/2 was crap, PT was crap and Fallout 1/2 was crap.

 

 

You're in luck.

 

IWD 1/2 are soulless hackfests that completely lack any nuance whatsoever! Fallout 1/2 are soul-crushingly boring games set in an absolutely bland and uninspired post-apocalyptic world, and the balance is horrible!

 

Any volunteers for PS:T?

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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This entire discussion about what is old-school or not was a factual discussion about whether the Codex was old-school or not. Not my tastes (which are subjective and not as interesting to discuss). See my first post and pay attention in the future.

 

I guess your comment just kinda melted together in my head with your opinion on banning and ignoring all FPS "tards and their stupid games" on 'dex. It was hard to make of that part of your post as a neutral observation (or defending 'dex on a basis that it's not actually pretentious etc.), concidering the whole rant part about action games just before it too.

Edited by Shadenuat

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BG1 is superior to PoE in every single way expect mechanically.

 

see, is these kinda blanket generalizations that make folks look silly.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Well that's even better, if you summarize people's opinion here you get:

 

- BG1 was crap but better than BG2

- BG2 was crap but better than BG1

- PoE is crap because it's too similar to BG1, which is superior to BG2 but still crap nonetheless even if BG2 was the best IE game.

 

Now I'm waiting for: IWD 1/2 was crap, PT was crap and Fallout 1/2 was crap.

 

 

You're in luck.

 

IWD 1/2 are soulless hackfests that completely lack any nuance whatsoever! Fallout 1/2 are soul-crushingly boring games set in an absolutely bland and uninspired post-apocalyptic world, and the balance is horrible!

 

Any volunteers for PS:T?

 

The combat sucked? 

 

Honestly, it totally did, but I don't think anyone cared.

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you gotta learn to read your own posts before posting them.  is wacky. 

 

"I'm talking about the trolls of Baldur's Gate 2, that frustrated everyone the first time they met them, unless you already knew you needed fire or acid."

 

that is his quote.  is a quote where he specific notes that the problem o' trolls evaporates with knowledge.  so, suggesting that the issue presented is Not one regarding unforeseeable defenses is ridiculous.  though why he would choose one o' the best known d&d  critters with a special defense is completely beyond our understanding.  

 

...

 

am begining to think that the reason we have difficulty communicating with you is simple that you don't read posts before responding... or are a bit slow.  the fact that luckman liked your post reveals some peculiarities 'bout him as well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Why in the world would you bring up "unforeseeable immunities and defenses", when discussing trolls in the IE games?

 

...

 

slow it is.

 

*washes hands*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Just as I thought. You have no answer.

 

it's a luckman quote about trolls in an ie game that Gromnir responded to.

 

enough.  is too hard helping you.  perhaps you are related to vol?   that could explain.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Nah. It's just that the game isn't catering to these types of character sets exclusively. In parts, the character system is about avoiding that huge gap you can have between min/max chars and more balanced ones

It's true, even the 25% damage difference is not that high and you can do well even on high difficulties with party of poorly created Obsidian companions. But it doesn't mean that PoE's system actually and actively supports roleplaying either. Most people are drawn to min-maxing through 2 simple builds (one that dishes out damage and one that tanks it) because that's what they assume is the best way to build their characters right. Player can roleplay a thief with high Per or a Wizard with high Res, but he will always feel that he is playing suboptimal character.

 

It doesn't help that PoE's system is also reversed and biased towards the most unintuitive stat distribution possible - where tanks max mental stats and casters often max physical stats, so you want to play an intelligent spellcaster with strong spells but end up having dialogue options that don't feel like they suit you.

Edited by Shadenuat

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How did he get a ^ on w?

 

I can only put it on vowels.


The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

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Well, it's pretty apparent there are things in the game that he did not quite "get", both from his review and earlier posts on the Codex.

 

I guess he could have written a more serious review but then... Worse than DS3? That's just trolling for attention. If that doesn't mean he's into ARPGs in which case you can just disregard his opinion.

 

In any case it's typical Codex to glorify their own village idiots, and going to edgy extremes in general (I must confess I'm not entirely innocent of the latter). I'm honestly surprised they did not put up an even crazier review, saying that PoE is worse than Lionheart or Brotherhood of Steel, or saying that the game was completely ruined because a certain poem was replaced, or whatever.

 

Actually people are completely wrong when they say that this is an "elitist" review, and that the Codex is THAT old-school. There's a 160 pages long thread about modding Skyrim and 40% of Codexers believe F:NV is Obsidian's best game, a more popular choice than MotB, KotOR 2 or PoE. Action RPGs and FPS hybrids such as Deus Ex, VtM:B and F:NV occupy high places in the Codex best games of all times-list (where Dark Souls is ranked above Wizardry 7...). Those rankings are fairly close to mainstream and I wouldn't be surprised to find a similar list in PC Gamer or something.

Codex was NEVER a Oldschool RPG website, i still remember a few of their members and NMA sending death threats to bethesda members back when fallout 3 was released

 

even /tg/ is more level headed than them and they have more trolls per capta

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How did he get a ^ on w?

 

I can only put it on vowels.

 

 

He's a wizard.

 

He needed to rest after writing that review though cause the ^w is a per rest move.

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"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

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This entire discussion about what is old-school or not was a factual discussion about whether the Codex was old-school or not. Not my tastes (which are subjective and not as interesting to discuss). See my first post and pay attention in the future.

 

I guess your comment just kinda melted together in my head with your opinion on banning and ignoring all FPS "tards and their stupid games" on 'dex. It was hard to make of that part of your post as a neutral observation (or defending 'dex on a basis that it's not actually pretentious etc.), concidering the whole rant part about action games just before it too.

 

It's both useful and fun to provoke people into replying with stupid stuff. When I write something like what you are referring to on the Codex (supposedly a forum for old-school RPGs) and somebody replies that "NOO FPS IS ACTUALY BETTER THAN RTWP" I can put them on my ignore list right then and there.

 

If people say that PoE sucks, and that is because they think Arcanum and Torment are the only good games ever made, or because PoE will suck compared to AoD or SitS, I can respect that. But if someone is hating on PoE because they like **** games it's a waste of time reading what they have to say.

 

I'm on the Codex to discuss quality games with refined gentlemen (yes, I think it's safe to safe there are no women on the Codex...). If people turn out to be coprophages who are on the Codex to discuss modding Skyrim, for the drama and just to feed the general atmosphere of hate, I'm not interested in interacting with them - it's a waste of time, simple as that. I'm on the Obsidian forums for other reasons as well and so I don't have any people on ignore list and not the same edgy persona.

 

i still remember a few of their members and NMA sending death threats to bethesda members back when fallout 3 was released

Hehe, I remember writing on the Bethesda forums in 2006 about how Oblivion was (and by extension Fallout 3 would be) banal, **** and boring. I wrote some truly legendary rants. It's a pity the pre-release forums have been deleted.


"Well, overkill is my middle name. And my last name. And all of my other names as well!"

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it's a welsh circumflex, no?  shouldn't be too hard to track down the alt code for such... even without the aid o' a wizard.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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holy crap I was rolling at the loading screens being your worst nightmare.  :banghead: lol. Seriously, some of those thing's you go through 4 loading screens for 30 sec or more each for 4 seconds of content... I also felt like the optional stuff like the crafting, stronghold, etc all felt really weak and thrown together. That was several hundred thousand dollars we raised for that, and it was just not fun and I'm sorry I funded it. At the same time, I wonder what this game would have turned out with only the initial funding. That scares me too. Hopefully the documentary talks about some of the challenges they ran into along the way. Also, hopefully now that the foundation has been laid, they can really improve upon the future of the game because it still needs a lot of work, and it's a miracle they had so many dedicated people like Sensuki reporting bugs because crikey it would have been uugleey otherwise. I'm not as critical as some feel, but I felt like it was decent for what it tried to capture. Good luck on the next one. You'll have to convince me a bit more on those stretch goals though, really disappointed in them. The megadungeon has been fun to explore, but only because it's mysterious. I don't know after you do it once if you'll rush to do it again.

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The titles I mentioned are definitely more old-school as in not aping a popular modern genre of the lowest common denominator (FPSs) as much as Fallout 3/ New Vegas does.

So there can't be an oldschool FPS?

Without knowing the context much, I just felt like replying to this:

Ziggurat manages to capture Hexen/Heretic feels across the board :) although, it is rogue-like/light, it does deliver nostalgic "feelz". I'm hoping Milkstone Studios manages to make it into a franchise with open-world (or why not mission-based like the old FPS games?).

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I found myself agreeing with most of the points but rolling my eyes with how blown out of proportion they are.

 

Hear hear.

 

Except, I agree on the writing bashing part. Particulary this:

 

The way the setting at large is presented to the player leaves a lot to be desired. PoE suffers a lot from its writers being obviously very proud of what they’ve done, so they make sure to tell you how awesome their setting is at every step – when an NPC starts talking about a distant place or a past event, brace yourself for a gigantic encyclopaedic infodump filled with dozens of alien names, regardless of whether the NPC is a commoner or a historian. This kind of exposition should be in the ‘cyclopedia’ section of the game’s journal, not in every second friggin’ dialogue

 

This one facet of the game lead me to turn most of the dialogue into a clickfest where I'd save right before an expected diatribe, and then just memorize keyboard numbers until whatever one got me the last line I thought was best.    I'm don't know whether there was anything interesting I missed because the dozen dialogues beforehand were so bereft of anything but overblown exposition that I became conditioned to expect them.  I'm fine with reading a lot - but geezus every time you meet a character it's one wall of text after another.  

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I would just say this:

 

I find the demands a little over the top in the sense it is clear that meeting the backer standards put some restraints on Obsidian. Please name how many dungeon areas this game has, then compare it to Endless paths. The Endless Paths is half of all dungeon exploration. If it were not for Endless Paths, we would instead have more locations with more dungeons, which from a storyline perspective, would be superior, because instead of "there's a book down there and some evil force, LET'S GET THEM," it would allow for varying stories and quests attached to each dungeon.

 

In that regard, while many criticisms voiced absolutely carry weight, I think it's also important to understand why the critic could not have things the way they would've liked it. It's often not a case of "omg the developers were drunk" as the source of problems, but rather "time restraints and promises clearly did something to limit the scope of this aspect of the game."


Moving forward, it's very important for Obsidian to understand this: no more backer promises. Of course backer promises help with donations, but keep them to a minimum. If there's a Pillars II? Let's see backer promises like "we'll make an additional class" or "we'll bring in X person to write a companion" or "additional companion with storyline." The backer NPCs, while minor in theory...? How much time do you think they ate up from development? How much of the dungeon exploring aspect did Endless Paths hog? How much developer time went into the stronghold?

 

I'm actually in a rare camp where I think the stronghold is alright. Some aspects of it could use a little more impact and emphasis (multiple buildings that provide only a rest bonus) and events could be more frequent, but I actually don't think it's as bad as most say. Having said that, if I were given the choice to scrap the Stronghold in it's entirety to reinforce other aspects of the game? I would take that in a heartbeat. Imagine if we had more reactive dialog (example, Durance responding to the NPC being a Priest of Eothas), more side quests, more impactful reputations (reputations as they stand now actually very RARELY do anything beyond get you a "hi I am an NPC and I have noticed you are deceptive, I will now proceed to treat you exactly how I treat honest players" line) and more spread out dungeons in exchange for not having the stronghold. That alone is a worthy trade-off and results in a more solid experience.

   On the Bethesda forums, Skyrim has a tagline amongst it's not-fans: "A mile wide, an inch deep." It's a project that was so indecisive about what it wanted to be that the experience feels shallow. Pillars is by NO MEANS in the same ballpark as Skyrim for this offense, but you can still detect hints of it, though mostly due to backer promises. Next time, just focus more on a solid RPG experience and less on "spices" and gimmicks. If you view stretch goals as a neccesity to get funding, then keep them small yet impactful enough to coerce people into kickstarting. I.E., things like a goal that adds one additional class. I promise you even ONE additional class as a top stretch goal is enough to motivate people to back the project more, because not hitting that stretch goal will feel like missed content much like some people feel compelled to always purchase DLC for their games to get the "full" experience.

 

 

  That's what Obsidian needs to take away from this. Do not make so many promises so that you're restrained by them. Next time, keep promises simple. If Obsidian does that, I'm sure much of these criticisms can and will be alleviated.

  As for the critics, by all means keep voicing criticism, but show some understanding. I've got a thread (or two) in the spoiler section talking about how choice and consequence feels woefully weak, but I do not voice it as "OMG OBSIDIAN MUST BE LIKE THE WORST COMPANY EVER AND I BET HITLER IS JOSH SAWYER'S FATHER."

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"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

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I can only tolerate so much of RPGcodex.  After reading any of their posts I get the impression that none of the dedicated posters actually enjoy CRGP gaming  and just try to out do each other in their hatefest of any game in RPG genre.  I prefer the sane RPGwatch forum as my go to RPG  news and opinions.

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It is sooo good to see all these nutjobs getting their come-uppance for totally screwing up the game with their Baaaa-ing during the Kickstarter/Backer phase.

 

You *points finger* demanded these screwed up dumb-ass add-ons to the game and now...

 

It is too late.

 

I lament the game it could have been.

 

So yeah, I am immensely enjoying this.

 

You Baaa-ers are like the proverbial masses that tried to convince Moses that he was crazy/wrong/whatever, and now you are having to face reality.

 

Some of us tried to change this.  You baaa-ed us down.

 

Nice to see that the sane world realizes this too.

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What's up with this smilie?

 

whatisfun.jpg

Register on 'dex and find out for yourself. I promise it would be a wonderful and unforgettable journey.

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There are 11 pages of replies, so this review obviously struck some chords.  I will say this- while there was certainly a fair bit of hyperbole in there, I think that really, the reviewer was almost 100% correct.  I imagine that hyperbole came because he felt like a jilted lover, betrayed by something he had invested so much in beforehand, and had such high expectations for. 

 

I was initially ECSTATIC for Pillars.  I loved the Bioware games, and everyone on the development staff has an amazing track record of making great RPGs.  I thought, "Wow, Obsidian with their OWN IP and NO overlords- this is going to be amazing!"  I was concerned about them having to produce totally unique content for something without an already existing universe (FR is amazing, Star Wars has tons of content, and even Fallout had decades of prior games to draw from). 

 

But, I thought about Arcanum.  I loved Arcanum.  It isn't the "best game EVUH!", but, I loved how ambitious it was, how unique the setting was, how diverse the gameplay options were- too many things to count.  I thought, "You know what?  Arcanum was done on a small budget with a small team.  There was no existing lore to build from, AND it was done on a relatively short timeline.  If that could be done, then surely POE will be just as good, if not better!  They have a pretty decent budget, they have been prepping the materials for a while, they are all veteran designers, programmers and writers- they are really going to knock this out of the park!"

 

I'm not going to regurgitate everything said in the review, but I will state the things that just don't make POE special to me:

 

- The writing.  It just didn't do much for me.  I actually APPRECIATED all the writing, but, nothing really "hooked" me.  I found the central quest in Arcanum to be slightly anti-climatic and lackluster, but it was interesting, and a slightly different spin on things.  But, in Arcanum, there were TONS of really interesting side quests that weren't even a little necessary to do, but had really great content and a wide-variety of means to solve- I loved doing them.  In Kotor, I loved the central quest.  It was well-paced, it had some interesting philosophical stuff, it always felt a bit urgent and dangerous.  In BG2, there were just so many things to do.  So many places to really EXPLORE.  Lots of interesting quests, characters, and challenges.  In F:NV, there were TONs of ways to solve every quest- that made it fun to try different options with different characters.  In Torment, it just had so many interesting aspects to it, and real choices in the middle of dialogues, it was amazing.

 

In POE?  I don't know.  I don't know if I can remember a single quest as particularly impressing me.  The keep had some interesting elements, as well as the tower in Defiance Bay.  Besides that, it didn't really feel like I had much "room to maneuver". (which is why I stopped my 2nd playthrough)

 

- I really didn't care about a single one of the party members I had.  Durance was at least a little interesting, but, even with my paladin character not being violently "evil", I still felt like maybe I should kill him.  He was just too unstable for me to ever trust, and I kept wondering if he was going to turn on me in the middle of some important fight.  The rest?  Meh.  Sometimes provided usual interjections, or added a little color, but I really didn't find them NECESSARY to have, even for that. 

 

In BG 2, I actually DID feel something for every character I EVER had in my party (and had them all, practically).  Aerie, the wounded bird.  Cliche?  Maybe, but there are plenty of people like that- that are kind to a fault, and have been hurt a lot in life, but keep trying to be a "good person".  Anomen, conflicted by dogmatic views, but aware that there was more than that to the truth.  Viconia, who is manipulative and cruel, but intelligent and not without many valid points.  Yoshimo- a combination of slimy and charismatic/funny.  MINSC.  He is a barbarian berserker with a "giant miniature space hamster".  He was the comically good guy, smarter than he appears, while still a bit oafish- I loved having him in my party.  Kotor 2?  Loved the characters, all with their own idiosyncrasies. I loved that they could be "corrupted" or "converted", to speak and think differently- it made it fun to interact with them.

 

This was probably the biggest thing I was looking forward to, besides the storyline and quest writing- FINALLY having a great RPG WITH A FULL PARTY!!  I loved F:NV, but, you get your 1 "follower" (and 2nd, token follower).  They were nice, but that wasn't the focus of the game.  And, in the end, I ended up with literally 0 party members that I had even the vaguest interest in.  I actually found some of them so annoying, I recruited them JUST to leave them at my stronghold.  In BG 2, I always had to really think about whether I was willing to "give someone up" when I encountered a new NPC, and I tended to maintain the same party throughout the entire game.  In Kotor 2, while I could rotate in and out whoever I wanted, I tended to use certain "teams" because I liked the skills they provided and how they interacted with each other.  With POE?  Meh. 

 

- Classes.  I didn't like the idea of, "an essentially but not fully" open class system from the get go.  I LIKED that your class STRONGLY defined you in the FR games.  In Arcanum, it WAS an open class system, but you essentially had to decide between 3 options: tech, neutral, or magic.  Melee or ranged.  It had serious implications to gameplay, and the out of combat skills were probably MORE important than the in-combat ones (do you want to be persuasive and have lots of followers?  do you want to be intelligent and have lots of dialogue options?  do you want to be well-rounded, but not great at anything, or amazingly min-maxed?)  Kotor.  An interesting combination of how you wanted to fight in combat and what types of reactions you would get in dialogue, that REALLY felt like they mattered (forks in the road, closing off other paths in the future).

 

With POE, while I appreciated how all the classes played differently in combat, and the variety of builds available to every class, I just didn't feel that any class was particularly important to have, or really contributed something particularly unique.  I don't know how you could play a FR game without, at the minimum, a fighter, mage, druid/cleric, and rogue.  How you built your mage was super important (I preferred to have 2, sometimes a dual-classed mage).  How you built your rogue was INCREDIBLY important.  Did you want to be thief extraordinaire, or did you want more of a scouting assassin?  Did you want a paladin over a ranger or fighter or barbarian?  If you ended up fighting a bunch of undead, you might regret not having a paladin.  If you wanted a more versatile fighter, you might wish you had the ranger. 

 

With POE, I just sort of felt like it didn't REALLY matter which of the classes I had in the party, I could probably do fine no matter what the mix was, though, like he says in the review, it really became more a matter of just "stopping the rush" and then "ranging the mob" and concentrating on keeping my fighters up.  There were definitely no epic mage or even cleric battles.  I couldn't steal almost anything, so I didn't really NEED a "rogue", because I could scout with anyone.  And, I can't replay, because it just doesn't feel like there is much of a difference, having different classes in the party.  No, "OMG, I wish I had THIS __ right now, but don't!" 

 

That turned out to be a lot longer than I anticipated.  I guess I'm going to go back to Arcanum, or F:NV, or maybe Kotor.  But, I've probably played THROUGH those games a total of roughly 10 times.  BG?  Wow, that would probably make it about 15 total playthroughs.  P:OE?  1.3, or something like that.  Maybe I'll finish my 2nd playthrough in the future, when I forget the game a bit.

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"1 is 1"

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It is sooo good to see all these nutjobs getting their come-uppance for totally screwing up the game with their Baaaa-ing during the Kickstarter/Backer phase.

 

You *points finger* demanded these screwed up dumb-ass add-ons to the game and now...

 

It is too late.

 

I lament the game it could have been.

 

So yeah, I am immensely enjoying this.

 

You Baaa-ers are like the proverbial masses that tried to convince Moses that he was crazy/wrong/whatever, and now you are having to face reality.

 

Some of us tried to change this.  You baaa-ed us down.

 

Nice to see that the sane world realizes this too.

 

The high horse, and drugs.

Two things you should really get off of, mate.

 

  • Like 1

"Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell

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