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Better without stronghold?


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The connection between loss of taxes to bandits and security isn't really apparent - to the point where it's not even clear that there is a connection.

 

 

That's easily testable.

 

Did you? wink.png

I'm not sure it's that easily testable. The random element in it appears to me very strong, i.e. one time bandits manage to steal 80% of the taxes, another time only 20%, without any major change in security and/or prestige levels.

I suspect there is some mechanism behind it, but if there's that much random in it, it's not easily detectable.

Could be wrong, though; I didn't bother to run tests on it.

Edited by Varana

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To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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You normally make more money then your hirelings upkeep but you'll never earn back the cost of the upgrades.

 

The most convenient upgrade is the Botanic Garden. Together with the Curioso shop and the Warden it's the only one you actually want. The Inn was a bit dissapointing. If it gave you all resting bonusses instead of one it would be worth it, sometimes, but as it is there are much better inns in the world. Some even increase you're stats by 6, the best you can get in your own inn is +1stat and +1skill.

 

As Varana said, it was a stretch goal and it more or less, serves it's purpose.

 

This is the real killer in my opinion.  You sink a lot of money into the stronghold and the return seems extremely underwhelming.  Indeed, i seems like the stronghold is just a way to drain money out of the PC's coin purse.  :geek: To be honest, unlike Dirigible and the 71k cp in his coin purse, I've never been about 9k, and so the stronghold feels like a big money pit to me.

 

Mind you, the resting bonuses are nice, as well as having a free place to rest. And the massive dungeon complex (that I've only partially cleared out thus far) is great.  That said, the entire area could have restored itself (well, by workers moving into area behind the scenes) without it having to be a player's stronghold to lord over.  And the dungeon could have been included without it being tied to a stronghold.

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Isn't there a huge dungeon complex under your keep you can explore for tons of XP and items? I read that somewhere, a review I think.

Yes, but the two are unrelated. The dungeon would be there even if the stronghold stretch goal had never been reached, and you can explore it without investing a single coin in keep upgrades and maintenance.
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The curio shop and botanical garden are both really cool. I spend a *lot* of time enchanting and making scrolls, which actually costs money just in and of itself. So while I've never been above 12K (and didn't have that for long) I blame that just as much as the money I sank into a fully upgraded stronghold. I do honestly feel most of that gold was just wasted, *especially* on Brighthollow and it's utterly worthless rest bonus's.

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The connection between loss of taxes to bandits and security isn't really apparent - to the point where it's not even clear that there is a connection.

 

 

That's easily testable.

 

Did you? wink.png

I'm not sure it's that easily testable. The random element in it appears to me very strong, i.e. one time bandits manage to steal 80% of the taxes, another time only 20%, without any major change in security and/or prestige levels.

I suspect there is some mechanism behind it, but if there's that much random in it, it's not easily detectable.

Could be wrong, though; I didn't bother to run tests on it.

 

 

I don't care enough to test it yet.  I'm hoping someone else will test it for me before I start caring. ;)

Edited by Daemonjax
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I am hoping that the stronghold becomes a centerpiece for an expansion or two.  Here are changes that I want:

 

1:  If you are in the stronghold, the rest button won't consume supplies if used.  Furthermore, all of your inn bonuses are applied.  Supplies are also replenished.

 

2:  The addition of a stables building, which cuts your travel time in half on the world map.  Each map area you pass through also has a survival check, which passing further halves time by half again.  100, -50 (Stables) -25 (Survival) = 25.  This allows the player a bigger window for timed quests and events.

 

3:  If new regions are added, a teleport system should be added.  This requires the use of certain map locations to achieve, but Obsidian can block or disable such nodes for dramatic purposes.  The stronghold acts as the nexus of the teleport system, and various NPCs from around the world can enter the stronghold to petition the player.

 

4:  Each building upgrade should come with a quest, adding functionality to the keep when the quest is concluded.  For example, you can side with a corrupt priest to receive "tithes" from his flock, or replace him with someone who can bless your hirelings before battle.

 

5:  Various story NPCs can be sent to the stronghold.  This can serve as a means of following up on quests, adding benefits to the keep, and so forth.  Saeda for example is the child of a notable family from Heritage Hill - the player can try to help her recover, or try to hijack her inheritance.

 

6:  Keep events should not be tied to quest completion, instead being based upon game time.  In its current state, the keep requires the player to fully upgrade it before completing quests, in order to take full advantage of it.  This is frustrating and boring.

 

7:  When at the keep, no companions can follow the player.  This is so that the companions can participate in events around the stronghold, such as target practice or haggling with a shopkeeper.  They should show up on the map, since they will be relocating on occasion.

 

8:  Companions can have their gear and setup changed when not in the party, for the convenience of the player.

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This is the real killer in my opinion.  You sink a lot of money into the stronghold and the return seems extremely underwhelming.  Indeed, i seems like the stronghold is just a way to drain money out of the PC's coin purse.  :geek: To be honest, unlike Dirigible and the 71k cp in his coin purse, I've never been about 9k, and so the stronghold feels like a big money pit to me.

 

Mind you, the resting bonuses are nice, as well as having a free place to rest. And the massive dungeon complex (that I've only partially cleared out thus far) is great.  That said, the entire area could have restored itself (well, by workers moving into area behind the scenes) without it having to be a player's stronghold to lord over.  And the dungeon could have been included without it being tied to a stronghold.

 

To have a lot of cash you need to:

 

1. Play with that unlimited space easy access storage (because I do not believe anyone would go back for 5p junk)

2. Do all quests

3. Murder everything

 

Then sell all you collected, every shop has unlimited monies after all.

 

 

But you are right of course. Upgrading keep should be worth something. Investing in it should at least leave you with tons of cash. Well, at least one can count for achievements on Steam, right? Right?! Well, they refuse to kick in, at least for me ;) Interesting thing, I have one for finishing Act II but nothing for Act I, my character has some serious powers :D

 

 

 

 

As for possible add-on.... I seriously hope it will be after the main adventure instead of BioWare's Mass Effect parody, where they just put additional stuff under main story's skin... including having a party while whole universe burns.

Edited by Yenkins
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 If the Stronghold was afterthought maybe they should have given us small inn or a house for us to have a free rest and not make us Lord/Lady (tho I am not sure if female characters aren't/shouldn't be called Lord too). It just change too much to be mere side quest. Especially as the Keep is on a relatively important locations (on a trade route I would imagine).  It makes you (eventually) important and not just one more random adventurer/thug.

 But in the end I am thankful that the devs put the basics in and now it will be much easier for the community to mod/add the life it deserves to have (for a good start to it please see Sabin Stargem's post).

 

 


 

As for possible add-on.... I seriously hope it will be after the main adventure instead of BioWare's Mass Effect parody, where they just put additional stuff under main story's skin... including having a party while whole universe burns.

 

...we already spend the whole game doing stuff while much more important things are waiting to be done:) It's like one of the rules to fantasy RPG now....along with having giant spiders (OMG fantasy universe without those!?)....

Edited by lyin321
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I'd like to let my pet collection wander loose around Brighthollow. Having a few animancy servants to perform various tasks would be a nice touch; not necessarily for conversation, but just to add a little "life" to the place. I also wish they'd move the goods chest next to the resting spot.

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But in the end I am thankful that the devs put the basics in and now it will be much easier for the community to mod/add the life it deserves to have.

 

That's pretty much what I'm expecting; it'll become a modding highlight.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I am hoping that the stronghold becomes a centerpiece for an expansion or two.  Here are changes that I want:

 

1:  If you are in the stronghold, the rest button won't consume supplies if used.  Furthermore, all of your inn bonuses are applied.  Supplies are also replenished.

 

2:  The addition of a stables building, which cuts your travel time in half on the world map.  Each map area you pass through also has a survival check, which passing further halves time by half again.  100, -50 (Stables) -25 (Survival) = 25.  This allows the player a bigger window for timed quests and events.

 

3:  If new regions are added, a teleport system should be added.  This requires the use of certain map locations to achieve, but Obsidian can block or disable such nodes for dramatic purposes.  The stronghold acts as the nexus of the teleport system, and various NPCs from around the world can enter the stronghold to petition the player.

 

4:  Each building upgrade should come with a quest, adding functionality to the keep when the quest is concluded.  For example, you can side with a corrupt priest to receive "tithes" from his flock, or replace him with someone who can bless your hirelings before battle.

 

5:  Various story NPCs can be sent to the stronghold.  This can serve as a means of following up on quests, adding benefits to the keep, and so forth.  Saeda for example is the child of a notable family from Heritage Hill - the player can try to help her recover, or try to hijack her inheritance.

 

6:  Keep events should not be tied to quest completion, instead being based upon game time.  In its current state, the keep requires the player to fully upgrade it before completing quests, in order to take full advantage of it.  This is frustrating and boring.

 

7:  When at the keep, no companions can follow the player.  This is so that the companions can participate in events around the stronghold, such as target practice or haggling with a shopkeeper.  They should show up on the map, since they will be relocating on occasion.

 

8:  Companions can have their gear and setup changed when not in the party, for the convenience of the player.

 

A lot of these things are very neat suggestions! ... Though I suspect rescuing Saeda used to have more content but it was cut. I mean, why bother mentioning her inheritance at all, if it is never brought up again?

 

On the other hand, I don't want the stronghold to take up too much of the game. It shouldn't become a time sink for the players nor the developers, that draws attention away focusing on the plot and interesting side quests (unlike another recent RPG that I shall not mention.)

 

As things are, I think I would have preferred a minor manor (basically Brighthollow isolated on one floor?) somewhere for the NPC's to hang out, storage, all of your unique books auto moved to and with good sleep bonuses.

Edited by Yenkaz
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Well - I was a little bummed about thought Stronghold as it was implemented:

 

1. Minor gripe. Resting is tedious - too many load screens to get there, and bonuses were very poor compared to what you could get at the inns.

 

2. Minor gripe. It's at least 24 hours travel time to everywhere else in the game. This means as soon as you go somewhere else, you're probably going to have to rest again. Your special rest home you pay so much for is pretty much only useful if you are doing the local dungeon - and this only barely. Sometimes even just traveling from this place you miss adventures or even invasions because their window is much shorter than it is to travel where you want to go. Of course, this is kind of a general gripe for the entire game itself. It's like 12 or 16 hours of travel time from the starting village to Raedric hold - how can you hear the bells from their towers notifying of a Raedric death?

 

3. Minor gripe. Everything except the Warden, and maybe a couple of the other buildings are just a waste of time and money. Even the hirelings you buy get instantly steamrolled by whatever invades you, and at 50 defense you're expending more on them than you get in taxes.

 

4. Major gripe. As another person here has said, it *feels* shallow, and kind of dead. The only real people who talk to you at any length are a posessed chair (pretty weird btw), and the warden. There's no activity of you being an actual "lord", No passing judgments on crimes. There's no indication of who in the world you are taxing, or what's being taxed. Visitors are rare and have nothing to say. Invasions are tedious and generic.

 

5. Major gripe. Doesn't tie in at all with the rest of the story. I don't think there's any instance of the character ever referencing himself/herself as the Lord/Lady of Caed Nua. One would think the rulers of Defiance Bay might be interested to know they have a new noble in their midsts (and may strongly object or approve such a fact).

 

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As for me stronghold is a over the top.

 

A house / hideout for your guy would be perfect, but it seems you must become quite a figure in Dyrwoood. Quite unnecessarily.

Well, yeah... if you look at your character screen, you are literally called the Champion of [insert location].

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As for me stronghold is a over the top.

 

A house / hideout for your guy would be perfect, but it seems you must become quite a figure in Dyrwoood. Quite unnecessarily.

 

Yeah, I suppose this is true. In NWN2 you basically had to defeat what amounted to several armies, and prove yourself to the nobility, to get your money-pit. Of course, at this point you could have probably just taken over Neverwinter itself.

 

In BG2, you get one early - but if you consider that you had already gone through BG1, it kind of took a while.

 

With this, it's like handing the main character a castle after ridding the Nashkel mines of kobolds in BG1, and thus is a little underwhelming.

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Well - I was a little bummed about thought Stronghold as it was implemented:

 

1. Minor gripe. Resting is tedious - too many load screens to get there, and bonuses were very poor compared to what you could get at the inns.

 

2. Minor gripe. It's at least 24 hours travel time to everywhere else in the game. This means as soon as you go somewhere else, you're probably going to have to rest again. Your special rest home you pay so much for is pretty much only useful if you are doing the local dungeon - and this only barely. Sometimes even just traveling from this place you miss adventures or even invasions because their window is much shorter than it is to travel where you want to go. Of course, this is kind of a general gripe for the entire game itself. It's like 12 or 16 hours of travel time from the starting village to Raedric hold - how can you hear the bells from their towers notifying of a Raedric death?

 

I agree with both of your gripes above.

 

It *IS* tedious to have to enter Brighthollow and THEN have to go to the second floor to get to your bedroom to get some rest.  I'm willing to not count entering the Stronghold map in the load screen "count", but it is a pain to have to climb to the 2nd floor.  I'm wishing that Brighthollow was a ranch style house.  ;)

 

As for the SH being about a day's travel from anywhere else in the game, I also agree with this.  It's a pain.  Like Yenka suggested, it might have been more useful or perhaps less tedious if the player's "stronghold" was a single house in a city or town, like perhaps somewhere in Defiance Bay or Dyrwood.

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Someone said that it would have been much better if Raedric's Hold was the stronghold. The hold almost completely established and you could have fixed or upgraded Glided Vale for more taxes and even open new shops.

 

Best thing its optional in case you decide to allow one of the other lords rule the place.

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Keep is luckluster. NWN2 did it A LOT better.

Proper sieges.

Proper choices.

 

The entire Stronghold seems rushed and not well planned.

 

All fights take place in the same room, half the upgrades are pointless or have weird effects.

How about the training grounds giving a permanent buff to my troops?

I'm building a tower to get +1 PER for resting. HOW THE HELL DOES THAT WORK?

Shouldn't a tower have proper tower-like functions? Like extending FOW durin sieges/defenses? Like mounting a ballista?

 

And to do something as simple as rest, one has to go trough 3 loading screens! (not counting the way back)

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