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Because pre-buffing is tedious and if you allowed it you would need to balance encounters around this thus forcing everyone to pre-buff.

What?

 

This isn't true at all. And it isn't an Either/Or. In reality, the designers would design the encounters how they see fit. Some would end up difficult, and some would end up easy. They then give the player the tools. And then they leave it up to the player to decide how and when to use those tools. The result is that the combat ends up feeling natural, and authentically tactical, without having silly, artificial restrictions placed on the planning process.

 

As it stands, combat in PoE, while being really fun in that instant gratification kind of way, still has this giant one dimensional malaise to it. Everything is Pavlovian reactive. When scouting is the only combat preparation you're allowed to make, the system has a tactical depth problem. Period.

 

 

 

But I do find the "balance" argument humorous, in light of something I experienced just this morning with the game. OK, I finally made it to the bottom of the mega dungeon. Faced down the big 'Master'. Yeah. That went well. Couldn't prepare for it. Couldn't even scout (he forces dialogue). And what was the result? A total Party insta-kill. Before we could attack, before we could buff, before we could MOVE...we were dead. Excellent Balance there! Sure glad we didn't have to "tediously pre-buff!"

Edited by Stun
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I havent even used a firearm in this game.... Why ?.... Because its not suitable for this kind of game tongue.png

What are you even on about.

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I wish there was a slider to reduce global exp gains. More than anything, I don't like hitting the level cap way before the end and a simple slider would be effective in making the game more challenging and allowing players to hit the maximum level near the final boss. This seems to be pretty relevant for PoE since people are hitting the cap many hours before the final boss (in some cases 20 hours or more). Maybe this would be something easy to mod.

You could hit the cap for BG1 pretty easily hours ahead of the final boss as well so its not like this hasn't been done before in other games.

 

I do think the cap for this game should have been at least two levels lower though. Everything has become trivial now.

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What is with people saying wizards are crap.  They are really powerful actually.  Just because you can't spam your entire grimore every combat?  They have AOE ranged auto attacks, 2 times per encounter aoe damage/stun and a tome slam that's pretty good.  Their CC spells are great and single handedly win fights for the party.  On top of this the class scales better than the rest, so should start weaker.  How does this make them weak and useless?

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I wish there was a slider to reduce global exp gains. More than anything, I don't like hitting the level cap way before the end and a simple slider would be effective in making the game more challenging and allowing players to hit the maximum level near the final boss. This seems to be pretty relevant for PoE since people are hitting the cap many hours before the final boss (in some cases 20 hours or more). Maybe this would be something easy to mod.

You could hit the cap for BG1 pretty easily hours ahead of the final boss as well so its not like this hasn't been done before in other games.

 

I do think the cap for this game should have been at least two levels lower though. Everything has become trivial now.

 

 

That it could be done in BG1 isn't really an argument that it's good, though. I really can't understand the buff to XP gains. I wish there was a way to turn the additional experience off completely, or maybe even nerf it globally, just a little. I personally feel that to hit the XP cap, you should have to finish almost absolutely everything in the game.

 

And I agree that the game should've been capped at 10 or so, too, but eh, I guess it was not to be.

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I wish there was a slider to reduce global exp gains. More than anything, I don't like hitting the level cap way before the end and a simple slider would be effective in making the game more challenging and allowing players to hit the maximum level near the final boss. This seems to be pretty relevant for PoE since people are hitting the cap many hours before the final boss (in some cases 20 hours or more). Maybe this would be something easy to mod.

You could hit the cap for BG1 pretty easily hours ahead of the final boss as well so its not like this hasn't been done before in other games.

 

I do think the cap for this game should have been at least two levels lower though. Everything has become trivial now.

 

 

That it could be done in BG1 isn't really an argument that it's good, though. I really can't understand the buff to XP gains. I wish there was a way to turn the additional experience off completely, or maybe even nerf it globally, just a little. I personally feel that to hit the XP cap, you should have to finish almost absolutely everything in the game.

 

And I agree that the game should've been capped at 10 or so, too, but eh, I guess it was not to be.

 

I totally agree. I wish there was a slider along with all the other difficulty settings we could use to adjust XP gains between 50% and 100% or something. I hate hitting the cap.

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Update - April 3 @ 9:45 AM: The team is having a meeting shortly to discuss how testing has gone and barring any issues will release the patch today. Please stay tuned.

 

Looks like they updated the blog with this note in it, about 40min ago -- HYPE!

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I wish there was a slider to reduce global exp gains. More than anything, I don't like hitting the level cap way before the end and a simple slider would be effective in making the game more challenging and allowing players to hit the maximum level near the final boss. This seems to be pretty relevant for PoE since people are hitting the cap many hours before the final boss (in some cases 20 hours or more). Maybe this would be something easy to mod.

You could hit the cap for BG1 pretty easily hours ahead of the final boss as well so its not like this hasn't been done before in other games.

 

I do think the cap for this game should have been at least two levels lower though. Everything has become trivial now.

 

 

That it could be done in BG1 isn't really an argument that it's good, though. I really can't understand the buff to XP gains. I wish there was a way to turn the additional experience off completely, or maybe even nerf it globally, just a little. I personally feel that to hit the XP cap, you should have to finish almost absolutely everything in the game.

 

And I agree that the game should've been capped at 10 or so, too, but eh, I guess it was not to be.

 

I totally agree. I wish there was a slider along with all the other difficulty settings we could use to adjust XP gains between 50% and 100% or something. I hate hitting the cap.

 

 

There ended up being a mod or two for BG that removed that cap.

 

I look forward to one for PoE.

 

XP caps suck.

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Good, good... getting the patch up today means that Bester may have time to get the IE Mod up before I come home and can play on Monday/Tuesday. :p


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[...]

 

By what valid logical criteria can you demonstrate that "an objective nerf validates an objective buff"? Because honestly that's literally false. If your sense for game balance is to naively move things around an equal sign then take it from me, you are wrong.

 

[...]

 

Oh, thank god I didn't say anything like that and your entire post is a massive strawman, or I'd be in trouble, because such a position would be indefensible. Phew. Dodged a bullet there. The bullet was intended for a strawman three miles away, but with that aim, I was lucky nontheless.

 

Can someone explain the change the Chill Fog? I don't get the description of the change.

Basically, there are several different kinds of AoE effects. A "Foe AoE" only hits enemies. A "regular" AoE hits everyone (excep right by the edge of the spell, where it only hits enemies.. for some reason).

 

And Chill Fog was changed from Foe AoE to a regular AoE. The reason this is causing some commotion is that the Wizard is widely considered wildly underpowered compared to the Druid, while the Wizard is considered meh at best, and Chill Fog was a really, really powerful low-level spell available to wizards (who rightfully suffer more at lower levels than higher ones). I think most people are OK with the change itself, just that it needs to be balanced to account for it.

 

Slicken was also crazy, and have been known to be crazy since early in the beta. It's odd to see something done about it now, of all times, when it should've been adjusted a long time ago. The criticism levvied against that change has more to do with theme and the underpoweredness of Wizards, rather than against the actual change itself - most everyone that was in the beta knew that Slicken was pretty broken. Again, I think most people realize that it clearly needed a nerf, and just question the way it's done (since it changes the nature of the spell; rather than being a persistent "trap"-like effect, it's instant and localized, like a fireball that does no damage and just makes people go prone).

 

 

 

 

I don't mind the nerf to Slicken.

 

But Chill Fog is over-board, Druid has a few  insane Foe-Only AOE that do several times more damage.  I'm still gonna try stack it on top of my two tanks, I'll just give them cold DR on chest and the cold-stamina items I suppose.  

 

The issue is T2 already sucks, so if T1 sucks too...then the progression to level 9 feels less epic.  I know when my Wizard hit level 9 it truly did feel amazing.

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Yeah, kind of like how in BG2 I had to click on a target to cast magic missile, right? Like, is there some invisible god who just hates the idea of me casting magic missile at a patch of dirt, some sort of dirt god? Absolutely contrived.

That comparison is ridiculous, though. There's no reasonable reason you'd want to do that, whereas PoE is shock-full of situations where you'd want to do something that is quite reasonable, but you can't do it, because... why?

 

That being said, I fully support you being able to cast Magic Missiles on the ground. It would be silly to stop you from doing that. It was not included because it was not considered relevant. Here, the issue of "Combat Only" abilities have been brought up time and time again, because it stops us from doing something quite reasonable, in a lot of cases.

 

Is it unreasonable that you would be unable to cast Magic Missile on the ground? Arguably, but I don't think anyone ever had an issue with it's omission, because it ultimately had no bearing on the game. In PoE, "Combat Only" abilities most definitely does.

 

What's more, the developers have acknowledged it as an issue, and said that they'd want to do away with it through patching or expansion(s), but that it was required as a work-around. It was mentioned during the latter parts of the beta where this was discussed extensively.

 

To now suddenly go back on that for what amounts to very flimsy reasoning is odd, to say the least.

 

 

No, the comparison isn't ridiculous, the argument I'm mocking and my analogous example are ridiculous though. Just because you agree with the point, doesn't mean anyone's argument in support of it is apt. Saying that not allowing pre-buffing is bad because there's no in-game explanation for it is as silly as saying the same thing about magic missiles, this doesn't have anything to do with whether or not pre-buffing should be in, just that the argument put forth in favor of it in that instance was ridiculous.

 

I don't really get why people want pre-buffing so desperately, to be honest. So, do you want all the encounters to be designed around not pre-buffing as they are now, and then some people can choose to pre-buff if they want to just steamroll through any enounter? I mean, I don't give a **** if people do want to do that, but asking the developers to implement the ability when you could just lower the difficulty seems silly. They decided to design encounters with parties not pre-buffing in mind, so how does it make sense to allow it? I'm so tired of people whining about having their play styles restricted and "why do you care how I play my single player game" nonsense. Nobody cares how you're playing, I sure as hell don't, but it's a game. Games are a series of restrictions and limitations within a setting used to guide the player through a story.

 

If pre-buffing isn't a part of the design intent, then it shouldn't be in. There's no need for me to ever cast a magic missile at the ground in BG2 because the game wasn't designed with that in mind, and there's no need for me to pre-buff in PoE because the game wasn't designed with that in mind, how is that not the end of the conversation? It's like demanding that they include the option to have an interface pop up before each combat allowing you to apply one of several optional debuffs to your enemies before the fight starts, even though the encounters were clearly designed without such a system in mind. So, would that be good simply because it adds complexity or simply because people are demanding to have it? The arguments being used in support of allowing pre-buffing make no sense.

 

Just to be clear, I do like the idea of pre-buffing. If the encounters had been designed with pre-buffing in mind, I would have been happy to see it included. That's just not the case, though. As far as I can tell, the idea was that pre-buffing is a "no-brainer" choice that every player will mindlessly waste time doing before each combat if encounters are designed with it in mind, which does kind of make sense.

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"Forsooth, methinks you are no ordinary talking chicken!"

-Protagonist, Baldur's Gate

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On the topic of pre-buffing,....it makes no sense that you can'd do this.

 

Why? You can pre-AOE...I start some fights (I don't have to, I just do it for lols) with putting down a few Druid/Wizard AoE DoTs, and then I launch a rolling flame and mental lance......

 

One would say pre-AOE is actually far more powerful than pre-Buff. So if you can pre-AOE cheese, why not pre-Buff cheese?

 

All it does is make a needless chore for some classes.

Edited by Parsong

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On the topic of pre-buffing,....it makes no sense that you can'd do this.

 

Why? You can pre-AOE...I start some fights (I don't have to, I just do it for lols) with putting down a few Druid/Wizard AoE DoTs, and then I launch a rolling flame and mental lance......

 

One would say pre-AOE is actually far more powerful than pre-Buff. So if you can pre-AOE cheese, why not pre-Buff cheese?

 

All it does is make a needless chore for some classes.

 

There is logic behind this. The game is not able to save buff/de-buff effects. Allowing pre-buffing would simply break save/loading functions. 

Why do you think temporary weapons which was still in inventory outside combat was breaking the game? 

 

When you save game while the temporary weapon/ buff/ de-buff is still there -> Breaks save files. The fixes for lots of bugs are simple. Do not allow them outside combat...

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On the topic of pre-buffing,....it makes no sense that you can'd do this.

 

Why? You can pre-AOE...I start some fights (I don't have to, I just do it for lols) with putting down a few Druid/Wizard AoE DoTs, and then I launch a rolling flame and mental lance......

 

One would say pre-AOE is actually far more powerful than pre-Buff. So if you can pre-AOE cheese, why not pre-Buff cheese?

 

All it does is make a needless chore for some classes.

 

There is logic behind this. The game is not able to save buff/de-buff effects. Allowing pre-buffing would simply break save/loading functions. 

Why do you think temporary weapons which was still in inventory outside combat was breaking the game? 

 

When you save game while the temporary weapon/ buff/ de-buff is still there -> Breaks save files. The fixes for lots of bugs are simple. Do not allow them outside combat...

 

 

Ahh I see, makes sense then.

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Oh awesome. Time to play more POE. On another note anyone know if they dealt with the social issue a small minority of people had last week?

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What is up with implementing the feature of being able to use lockpicks from the stash? Makes little sense to me as it seems to take away the "emergency" of lockpicking. Now you don't need to worry about how many lockpicks you bring with you since they're now always available. Why should we not then be able to use potions or other auxiliary items directly from the stash? Correct me if I've understood this wrong, but it just seems a bit strange.

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What does this mean:

 

  • Raised the bonus for having fewer than six party members from 5% per character under the limit to 10% per character under the limit.

 

What bonus?

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The patch looks good. Those 2 wizard spells had it coming, but the omfg wizard now useless crap makes me laugh. If you want to play a single player MMO go play Dragon Age: Inquisition instead.

Or the infinity engine games - where wizards are actually, you know, powerful. Instead of, you know, deliberately designed to be weakest class in the game.

 

They shouldn't even be called Wizards anymore. They should be called "interns" or "Adventurer understudies"

 

At high levels the wizard is really freakin' powerful. I've already discussed how super powerfull confusion is. The wizard class is better than you guys are saying it is. Ironically, it's more IE like than I expected. At low levels the wizard sucks, and at high levels it's really powerful. 

 

That's not really true, is it?

When does Wizard get powerful, at the end of the game?

 

So for the majority of the playing time it is the weakest, most crippled class.

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On the topic of pre-buffing,....it makes no sense that you can'd do this.

 

Why? You can pre-AOE...I start some fights (I don't have to, I just do it for lols) with putting down a few Druid/Wizard AoE DoTs, and then I launch a rolling flame and mental lance......

 

One would say pre-AOE is actually far more powerful than pre-Buff. So if you can pre-AOE cheese, why not pre-Buff cheese?

 

All it does is make a needless chore for some classes.

 

There is logic behind this. The game is not able to save buff/de-buff effects. Allowing pre-buffing would simply break save/loading functions. 

Why do you think temporary weapons which was still in inventory outside combat was breaking the game? 

 

When you save game while the temporary weapon/ buff/ de-buff is still there -> Breaks save files. The fixes for lots of bugs are simple. Do not allow them outside combat...

 

 

While this is arguably true for some things, it's patently false in many. Not only does the game appear to save buff/debuff effects fine, but in many cases the restriction to Combat Only appears completely arbitrary. For example, Zealous Focus is not Combat Only, but Zealous Charge is. Why? Because of save game limitations? Lolno.

 

What does this mean:

  • Raised the bonus for having fewer than six party members from 5% per character under the limit to 10% per character under the limit.
What bonus?

 

 

The experience bonus.

Edited by Luckmann

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