SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

[Sensuki]

lol

[Luckmann]

Legibility fix for the thread: http://i.imgur.com/gTG521z.png

 

Just replace "Surface Reflection" with "erragal". Didn't feel like making a whole new guide just for another person.

 

[...]

 

2) I can attest that, I move more in combat when I haven't prepared, when I stumble into an encounter. Then my entire combat phase is more active in moving around. When I spot an enemy and prepare ahead, they pretty much just stand still statically. I.E: I have to react and adjust my tactics if I get surprised by an encounter, whilst preparing ahead, I can become an iron wall. Makes sense, doesn't it? I feel that combat is dynamic in this way, and lots of things happen during combat which allows reactivity, which allows for mobility and me switching/changing my tactics (Which is why I don't have much problem with recovery rate penalties when moving).

 

[...]

But if you are in that position, you've already screwed up. At that point, you're just playing catch-up to perform what you should've been doing from the beginning. Now, I'm not saying that what you're saying isn't true. It very much is.

 

But if the system is only dynamic and the situation tactical in the event that you screw up, is that really a good system? You have to literally fail before the situation you describe happens. I would prefer a system built around being diverse and tactically interesting when you succeed, because once you've got the mechanics down, you will be succeeding a lot more than you will be failing.

 

If you've played the game for a while, the situation you describe should never happen.

 

I will fully concede that the combat is "dynamic" in this way, and that is certainly a good thing to a degree, that it is different based on how combat is initiated, whether it surprises you or not, but honestly, it just shouldn't happen if you're doing your job.

 

I can't help but to think about the discussion on armour and defences, where someone raised the point that he can use medium armours and he likes it. Yeah, but why would you? It's the same here. Yes, what you describe can happen, it is possible, but why would it? Nine times out of ten, unless you're deliberately roleplaying as a stumbling fool or completely ignoring Stealth and Scouting, it's just not going to happen.

 

To engage enemies you have to stand still. Movement is penalized in melee if you're engaged. Recovery time is now penalized if you move. It's quite simple really. All of these things make movement based tactics not really worth it unless you absolutely have to. It's not a choice. It only removes it.

Which is so very oddly symptomatic to PoE at this point, and I still can't wrap my head around why. The aim should always be to incentivize (sp?) actions, to make all the options, X, Y and Z viable and interesting. Not specifically restrict actions and freedom.

 

It's extremely conservative, in a way, to the point of actively reactionary. Mechanics should first and foremost expand upon available options. In some regards PoE has been good in this (character development, in many ways) but when it comes to combat, it really feels like every attempt to break the mould is specifically punished, because "you're not playing it right", "play it my way or no way", just "badwrongfun!".

 

What does this actually contribute? Someone said it stops kiting; even if that would be true, kiting is not an issue, but more importantly, it doesn't. It promotes it. It's "realistic"? It's not, even if that would matter, which it doesn't. It prevents movement in combat? Well yeah, but why would you want that, and Engagement already curtails movement in combat, although with other far-reaching effects and oddities.

 

All it does is create a really strange restriction that interacts with pre-existing abilities and talents terribly.

 

I cannot see how it serves any purpose, it reduces available options, it removes tactical depth, and it screws with other pre-existing mechanics. How is any of this positive? Where is the upside to this?

 

Edit:

Or the most fun ever made (told you there were billions kinds of fun) but the whole experience would need to be tailored completely differently and it couldn't be some kind of "you're the one!" story, that's for sure

 

Hardcore low-tech GURPS all the way baby!

Well yeah, but.. in context. I know hyperrealism can be a lot of fun in PnP:s and so on, and high-lethality games can be hilarious (low-level high-stakes Dark Heresy, anyone?).

 

But contextually, it's not really relevant to the discussion.

 

 

The chancellor wants you to fetch him a shrubbery from the village yonder.

 

 

You have died of dysentery.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[Sensuki]

It's possible they were trying to similuate D&D 3E where if you move you only get a partial attack. But yeah ... this ain't D&D or turn-based so ... 

[DigitalCrack]

 

It's not an AI problem - if they can't see / detect your other characters and you keep the character they're chasing close to them. AI programming is difficult and in the majority of cases, the most sensible thing for melee AI to do is attack the closest unit - especially with the Engagement system.

this game is aiming to be more simulationist than the original ie games actually were and it doesn't sit well with some people.

That's the first time I've heard ANYONE accuse Pillars of Eternity of being simulationist. Are you really sure you've played the game?

Are you in love with hyperbole? Do you normally throw out other people's modifier words to twist their sentences into a narrative that allows you to try and attack their credibility?

 

More. More. More.

 

>

 

And it is, factually, more of a simulation of fantasy combat scenarios than IE.

 

As an rpg it is never actually a simulation. That makes no sense...the entire point is to represent complex minutiae with numbers. I'm really concerned that you still don't grasp abstraction layer yet. Please open your mind to new ideas, stop living in the past. It's almost frightening how neurotic your social interaction style is.

 

Do you want to voice chat me? Do you need an irl friend to calm you down? Did you get bit by too many spiders as a kid? I can't fathom why you take something so innocuous, non confrontational, and factual and attempt to construct a conflict out of it.

 

I'm really worried about you.

What the difference between sensuki's "attempt to construct a conflict" and your passive-aggressive escaltion of the those conflicts? Your telling him to chill out and then giving him reason to react that way at the same time.

[Failion]

I think the growlanser games also slowed down your action if your character is moving while its qued. But then again that was a real time TURN based franchise. Personally I don't know how it detracts from gameplay because I haven't fiddled with it but from what I understand you still WANT to move at times. OP reminds me of those dudes I remember in games like DDO that obsessed with having haste pots and constantly be moving at like 200 percent of their movement speed. Wuts so bad about penalizing movement and giving the enemy AI a edge?

[erragal]

 

 

It's not an AI problem - if they can't see / detect your other characters and you keep the character they're chasing close to them. AI programming is difficult and in the majority of cases, the most sensible thing for melee AI to do is attack the closest unit - especially with the Engagement system.

this game is aiming to be more simulationist than the original ie games actually were and it doesn't sit well with some people.

That's the first time I've heard ANYONE accuse Pillars of Eternity of being simulationist. Are you really sure you've played the game?

Are you in love with hyperbole? Do you normally throw out other people's modifier words to twist their sentences into a narrative that allows you to try and attack their credibility?

More. More. More.

>

And it is, factually, more of a simulation of fantasy combat scenarios than IE.

As an rpg it is never actually a simulation. That makes no sense...the entire point is to represent complex minutiae with numbers. I'm really concerned that you still don't grasp abstraction layer yet. Please open your mind to new ideas, stop living in the past. It's almost frightening how neurotic your social interaction style is.

Do you want to voice chat me? Do you need an irl friend to calm you down? Did you get bit by too many spiders as a kid? I can't fathom why you take something so innocuous, non confrontational, and factual and attempt to construct a conflict out of it.

I'm really worried about you.

What the difference between sensuki's "attempt to construct a conflict" and your passive-aggressive escaltion of the those conflicts? Your telling him to chill out and then giving him reason to react that way at the same time.

Did I create the thread in all caps? I am definitely not escalating, I'm diverting. I want him to be a better human being and argue in good faith. I don't actually care at all about the design outcomes of the game;I gave obsidian money because I trusted the product they would create.

 

Reason to react what way? He chose a comment I made to another person, and intentionally misappropriated what i said to construct a false narrative. That's deceptive, period. I am certainly confrontational but I am not misleading in what I take issue with.

 

And considering how many people have repeatedly pointed out his predatory argument framing to no avail, you are just enabling him by claiming he has an ' excuse '. There is no excuse.

 

Sadly these aren't the EJ forums or this wouldn't even be necessary.

[Sanquiz]

Another game with range characters be the gods?

 

Love of the melee characters please!!!

 

Sensuki make a poll and see what happens.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Arturo Sanquiz

[Osvir]

@Luckmann: People screw up all the time and, being able to make amends for those mistakes and come out on top is only a good thing. It'd be really really bad if it had been "Damn! I made a mistake, oh well, now I have to reload the game". As for having to fail to achieve my situation? Not at all. My Barbarian, my Wizard, my Chanter, my Rogue and my Priest are all pretty mobile during combat even if I prepare, only the Fighter is static but has tools to become mobile (Knockdown).

Whilst you have a point that "People get better" that works in your disfavor as well, because eventually a game can become nothing but a calculator because you get so good at it. There is no dynamic in hitting an "exact number" every time. Thus min/max optimise is the least dynamic choice. Just saying strawman-ing

Edited March 19, 2015 by Osvir

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

 

It's not an AI problem - if they can't see / detect your other characters and you keep the character they're chasing close to them. AI programming is difficult and in the majority of cases, the most sensible thing for melee AI to do is attack the closest unit - especially with the Engagement system.

this game is aiming to be more simulationist than the original ie games actually were and it doesn't sit well with some people.

That's the first time I've heard ANYONE accuse Pillars of Eternity of being simulationist. Are you really sure you've played the game?

Are you in love with hyperbole? Do you normally throw out other people's modifier words to twist their sentences into a narrative that allows you to try and attack their credibility?

More. More. More.

>

And it is, factually, more of a simulation of fantasy combat scenarios than IE.

As an rpg it is never actually a simulation. That makes no sense...the entire point is to represent complex minutiae with numbers. I'm really concerned that you still don't grasp abstraction layer yet. Please open your mind to new ideas, stop living in the past. It's almost frightening how neurotic your social interaction style is.

Do you want to voice chat me? Do you need an irl friend to calm you down? Did you get bit by too many spiders as a kid? I can't fathom why you take something so innocuous, non confrontational, and factual and attempt to construct a conflict out of it.

I'm really worried about you.

What the difference between sensuki's "attempt to construct a conflict" and your passive-aggressive escaltion of the those conflicts? Your telling him to chill out and then giving him reason to react that way at the same time.

Did I create the thread in all caps? I am definitely not escalating, I'm diverting. I want him to be a better human being and argue in good faith. I don't actually care at all about the design outcomes of the game;I gave obsidian money because I trusted the product they would create.

 

Reason to react what way? He chose a comment I made to another person, and intentionally misappropriated what i said to construct a false narrative. That's deceptive, period. I am certainly confrontational but I am not misleading in what I take issue with.

 

And considering how many people have repeatedly pointed out his predatory argument framing to no avail, you are just enabling him by claiming he has an ' excuse '. There is no excuse.

 

Sadly these aren't the EJ forums or this wouldn't even be necessary.

Its saying things like "I want him to be a better human being" that escaltes it because it comes off as "I need to teach this lowly peon how to act" whether that's your intention or not. Considering the whole "sensuki is rude and hostile" feels like an attempt to discredit or invalidate his points on the topic or at the very least distract people from the point of his post. So if your going for the whole good Samaritan thing its not being percieved.

[pswendel]

I've read as many comments in the argument as I could. End of the day for me this mechanic supports save scumming if a fight doesn't go my way and I'm handed my rear end because positioning was initially poor on my characters from the get go.

[Gfted1]

Perhaps if everyone simply focuses on making themselves better human beings then these asinine slapfights wouldn't go on for 8 pages. Again, please focus your attentions on the posts and not the posters.

[BPM]

 

 

 

 

It's not an AI problem - if they can't see / detect your other characters and you keep the character they're chasing close to them. AI programming is difficult and in the majority of cases, the most sensible thing for melee AI to do is attack the closest unit - especially with the Engagement system.

this game is aiming to be more simulationist than the original ie games actually were and it doesn't sit well with some people.

That's the first time I've heard ANYONE accuse Pillars of Eternity of being simulationist. Are you really sure you've played the game?

Are you in love with hyperbole? Do you normally throw out other people's modifier words to twist their sentences into a narrative that allows you to try and attack their credibility?

More. More. More.

>

And it is, factually, more of a simulation of fantasy combat scenarios than IE.

As an rpg it is never actually a simulation. That makes no sense...the entire point is to represent complex minutiae with numbers. I'm really concerned that you still don't grasp abstraction layer yet. Please open your mind to new ideas, stop living in the past. It's almost frightening how neurotic your social interaction style is.

Do you want to voice chat me? Do you need an irl friend to calm you down? Did you get bit by too many spiders as a kid? I can't fathom why you take something so innocuous, non confrontational, and factual and attempt to construct a conflict out of it.

I'm really worried about you.

What the difference between sensuki's "attempt to construct a conflict" and your passive-aggressive escaltion of the those conflicts? Your telling him to chill out and then giving him reason to react that way at the same time.

Did I create the thread in all caps? I am definitely not escalating, I'm diverting. I want him to be a better human being and argue in good faith. I don't actually care at all about the design outcomes of the game;I gave obsidian money because I trusted the product they would create.

 

Reason to react what way? He chose a comment I made to another person, and intentionally misappropriated what i said to construct a false narrative. That's deceptive, period. I am certainly confrontational but I am not misleading in what I take issue with.

 

And considering how many people have repeatedly pointed out his predatory argument framing to no avail, you are just enabling him by claiming he has an ' excuse '. There is no excuse.

 

Sadly these aren't the EJ forums or this wouldn't even be necessary.

Its saying things like "I want him to be a better human being" that escaltes it because it comes off as "I need to teach this lowly peon how to act" whether that's your intention or not. Considering the whole "sensuki is rude and hostile" feels like an attempt to discredit or invalidate his points on the topic or at the very least distract people from the point of his post. So if your going for the whole good Samaritan thing its not being percieved.

 

In my opinion he already invalidated his points for having used caps in the title of the post, "Slowed RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS" certainly is not a title that invites discussion.

[Sedrefilos]

I'm not playing the beta, but since I'm playing IWD enhanced right now, let me pop in and say my part. Doesen't matter much 7 days before launch anyway.

Combat in IWD is a huge pile of Kri-kri turds, for 2015 standards. I like the engagement mechanic as an idea and as I've seen it in action in videos (about the slow recovery wile moving I'm not that sure though) and if it is to be removed, a threat mechanic should be introduced so you can pin opponents one way or another. Having to chase them around and have your weakling party members run around like idiots is sooooooo frustrating and stoooooooopid. Reminded me of chasing games we played as kids.

I was engaged in a battle last night and I couldn't believe the stupidity of the combat philosophy of IWD (and all other IE game obviously). I don't see where people find tactics in those games. It's mostly select all -> attack target, unless you come across a more powerful group then you do what I described above. Damn!

[DigitalCrack]

One thing I have not experienced in any playthrough of POE beta is dynamic battle motion. Like in BG2 there were a number of times I had to drop a frontliner back to save a my back row as well as retasking a frontliner to rush my enemies back row. Not that its impossible to doin POE it just doesnt help you to do so cause you have to eat so many penalties or burn through a bunch of abilities to do so.

[damage991]

 

You've filed your report (incredibly rudely, as usual), and you're going to mod the game to your liking.

I don't see how the fact that I have stated that I am going to mod it out of the game changes a single thing. A bad mechanic is a bad mechanic.

 

It's also really stupid that it promotes standing still until you've recovered to use a movement based ability, because that is faster than moving and then using it.

 

Dont you regenerate stamina/endurance faster standing still vs running or doing something physical like swinging a sword?

 

I do.

 

Makes sense to me.

[armorb]

And to see the very same people start throwing around 'autism' as an insult and accusing others of operating in an 'echo-chamber' is just too much. Playing the victim as soon as you're called out on it is frankly all to predictable.

 

Said poster has also been known to spout off about "SJWs" - so that makes almost a perfect trifecta of #gamergate douchebagery....

 

Edited March 19, 2015 by armorb

[Sothpaw]

 

And to see the very same people start throwing around 'autism' as an insult and accusing others of operating in an 'echo-chamber' is just too much. Playing the victim as soon as you're called out on it is frankly all to predictable.

 

Said poster has also been known to spout off about "SJWs" - so that makes almost a perfect trifecta of #gamergate douchebagery....

 

 

Wouldn't lump SJW in with autism.  Making fun of a person's politics and making fun of a person's handicap are different levels of offense. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sothpaw

[AndreaColombo]

I was engaged in a battle last night and I couldn't believe the stupidity of the combat philosophy of IWD (and all other IE game obviously). I don't see where people find tactics in those games. It's mostly select all -> attack target, unless you come across a more powerful group then you do what I described above. Damn!

 

You're not being serious, are you?

[Luckmann]

@Luckmann: People screw up all the time and, being able to make amends for those mistakes and come out on top is only a good thing. It'd be really really bad if it had been "Damn! I made a mistake, oh well, now I have to reload the game". As for having to fail to achieve my situation? Not at all. My Barbarian, my Wizard, my Chanter, my Rogue and my Priest are all pretty mobile during combat even if I prepare, only the Fighter is static but has tools to become mobile (Knockdown).

 

Whilst you have a point that "People get better" that works in your disfavor as well, because eventually a game can become nothing but a calculator because you get so good at it. There is no dynamic in hitting an "exact number" every time. Thus min/max optimise is the least dynamic choice. Just saying strawman-ing

Well yeah, some people do screw up all the time, and being able to make amends for those mistakes and eventually come out on top is definitely a good thing. And it would indeed be boring if small mistakes were unsalvegable. However, adding mechanics that increases the reliance on pre-combat positioning and assists in locking up combat does nothing to actually promote that, and, arguably, neither would the removal of those superfluous limitations.

 

It is really neither here nor there, so to say.

 

I do however not agree (and you say "can" become) that a game necessarily becomes nothing but a calculator because you get so good at it. In PoE, however, it is very easy to adhere to a formula of simple "tank and spank". You can move around a lot in combat if you really want to, especially in easier scenarios, but there's really no reason for you to do it. Knowing what you know, why would you consciously make decisions that run counter to a favourable outcome on your part?

 

This is not about min/max optimization at all (or the fact that PoE so blatantly rewards min/maxing), but about the employable tactics. If this was a matter of cheesing it, there might be a point to make about the unintended exploitation of game mechanics, but we are talking about completely reasonable actions that anyone can take at any time, and indeed will take once they learn the ropes.

 

Compare that to any major encounter in, say, BG2, where discounting cheese, you often have to react to the ongoing combat. Does this mean that you can't learn to deal with those specific encounters reliably or that they're hard? No. But it does mean that I can't usually work out a single tactic that will work without fault every single time, and where I'll actually have to see where the battle takes me.

 

Do I know how to beat Firkraag? Yes. Am I sure I'll beat him? Hell yeah. I know where the pieces go and I know what spells I need (no, not Spell Shield, that's a bug) and so forth, but once the **** hits the fan, boom, we have to see where this goes.

 

 

I'm sure Sensuki will point out why Firkraag is a bad example. I should probably have thought of something better, involving multiple opponents.

 

 

I'm not playing the beta, but since I'm playing IWD enhanced right now, let me pop in and say my part. Doesen't matter much 7 days before launch anyway.

Combat in IWD is a huge pile of Kri-kri turds, for 2015 standards. I like the engagement mechanic as an idea and as I've seen it in action in videos (about the slow recovery wile moving I'm not that sure though) and if it is to be removed, a threat mechanic should be introduced so you can pin opponents one way or another. Having to chase them around and have your weakling party members run around like idiots is sooooooo frustrating and stoooooooopid. Reminded me of chasing games we played as kids.

I was engaged in a battle last night and I couldn't believe the stupidity of the combat philosophy of IWD (and all other IE game obviously). I don't see where people find tactics in those games. It's mostly select all -> attack target, unless you come across a more powerful group then you do what I described above. Damn!

We probably see the tactics in it because we know how to pin opponents and don't chase loose opponents down, having our weakling party members run around like idiots.

 

But it's just a thought.

 

That being said, as I've pretty much cemented earlier in the thread, the IE games are not the end-all be-all, nor the epitome of tactical combat. However, it is odd to see how it's doing many things better than PoE currently does, because as I've said, the IE games had the issue that they were an adaptation of a turn-based ruleset not intended for real-time combat, whereas PoE had the advantage of being completely built for real-time combat; which is why it's doubly flabbergasting that you'd shoehorn turn-based PnP mechanics into it.

 

Like I also said earlier, I think it would've been better if Sawyer could've worked on a turn-based system like he wants, and let someone that wanted to work with a real-time combat system do that. That again being said, I must also make it clear that I still think that the idea of the Engagement system was a good one, but that it's execution is so bad and with so few (no?) redeeming qualities that I ask myself if it's even possible to salvage.

 

 

 

And to see the very same people start throwing around 'autism' as an insult and accusing others of operating in an 'echo-chamber' is just too much. Playing the victim as soon as you're called out on it is frankly all to predictable.

 

Said poster has also been known to spout off about "SJWs" - so that makes almost a perfect trifecta of #gamergate douchebagery....

 

 

 

"Hurf durf misogyny hurf durf gamergaters hurf durf such social justice. much ad homimen. wow."

 

Planet Earth to Armorb, Planet Earth to Armorb, come in Armorb. Please return our victim complex at once, no one man is meant to hold such power!

Edited March 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[Luckmann]

Also, and I'm making this as a separate post just so it's as clear as possible, I still think that Pillars of Eternity is a good game.

It is good, perhaps even great, perhaps even amazing, and I truly look forward to exploring the world, and the story that Obsidian has made for us.

But it is so great in spite of it's shortcomings.

 

In spite of all these little things, things that can be improved upon in the future, things that can be expanded upon or changed, I still truly believe in the product itself.

In the potential arguments, that shouldn't get lost, and we're arguing for these things; more tactical depth, incentives to use different armours, rebalancing of attributes and so on, because we see that sheer potential that the game ultimately has, and will with no doubt in my mind still have in the future. And I would still recommend this game to anyone that asks, as it stands today, just a few days before release.

That is all.

[Whipstitch]

In my opinion he already invalidated his points for having used caps in the title of the post, "Slowed RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS" certainly is not a title that invites discussion.

And in my opinion you've already invalidated your opinion by suggesting that decorum is something that can prove things false or unfalse.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Whipstitch

[GreyFox]

Sad that it's going to take a mod to get this game's combat to even resemble fun.

 

Such a terrible addition so late, and they really are gonna deserve any negative reviews they get if people find the combat boring/bad.

 

If the goal was to make combat worse than 15 year old games, well then they've succeeded.

[Lord Wafflebum]

In Sensuki's defense, it's hard to make such a massive tonal shift between the OE forums and the 'dex. You can tell when I've recently been on the codex because my posts here are way, way more aggressive. 

 

That said, I think this thread has gotten way too off topic. Are people still arguing that movement in combat needs MORE of a disincentive? I think movement in combat is punishing enough with the disengagement system; anything more is far too much. Admittedly, that's just my opinion, or has my use of capital letters made my opinion moot?

 

I should probably be banned.

[pswendel]

Sad that it's going to take a mod to get this game's combat to even resemble fun.

 

Such a terrible addition so late, and they really are gonna deserve any negative reviews they get if people find the combat boring/bad.

 

If the goal was to make combat worse than 15 year old games, well then they've succeeded.

Harsh criticism from a zealot's love. The only burden this places on my play style is save scumming if my initial static set-up was poorly situated. No different than IE baselines in that regard.

[GreyFox]

In Sensuki's defense, it's hard to make such a massive tonal shift between the OE forums and the 'dex. You can tell when I've recently been on the codex because my posts here are way, way more aggressive. 

 

That said, I think this thread has gotten way too off topic. Are people still arguing that movement in combat needs MORE of a disincentive? I think movement in combat is punishing enough with the disengagement system; anything more is far too much. Admittedly, that's just my opinion, or has my use of capital letters made my opinion moot?

 

I should probably be banned.

 

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.