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SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS


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#1
Sensuki

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WHY IS ALL RECOVERY TIME NOW SLOWED WHILE MOVING ??????????????

DO YOU GUYS JUST HATE TACTICAL MOVEMENT IN COMBAT? WHO MADE THIS DECISION?

I fought hard to get recovery time pause removed from the game, and had to suffer slowed ranged recovery while moving (which I'm not a fan of anyway) and now for some retarded reason, all movement now slows recovery time - giving even MORE penalty to moving in combat and putting MORE emphasis on having to put your close characters together, which is dumb. 

There is already enough reason to use positioning as it is because pretty much everything else in the game demands it - all this does is hurt the gameplay. I want to move my units around - I and many others play these games like an RTS and you are basically designing the game so that penalizes my preferred style of play.

Can you please stop trying to force people to play a certain way? Because it's not fun.

 

codex_mob.png

I know it's not a bug because I checked the code, and there is this part of the update method in CharacterStats

if ((this.m_recoveryTimer > 0f) && !this.HasStatusEffectThatPausesRecoveryTimer())
            {
                if (this.IsMoving)
                {
                    float movingRecoveryMult = AttackData.Instance.MovingRecoveryMult;
                    if (((this.m_equipment != null) && (this.m_equipment.PrimaryAttack != null)) && (this.m_equipment.PrimaryAttack is AttackRanged))
                    {
                        movingRecoveryMult += this.RangedMovingRecoveryReductionPct;
                    }
                    this.m_recoveryTimer -= Time.deltaTime * movingRecoveryMult;
                }
                else
                {
                    this.m_recoveryTimer -= Time.deltaTime;

It's pretty simple for me to remove that line from the code, but there's probably others out there that would like to have their say on this subject as well. 

 


Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 02:42 AM.

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#2
Veevoir

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Isn't engagement and resulting free "lol you moved" attacks not enough to penalize those who actually want to bring some tactics in the game? This has to happen too?

It locks the game even further into engaging everything with tank or two and then proceed to beat the crap out of it. And even much, much deeper into ranged>>> melee (ranged won't suffer additional penalty for switching targets while melee needs to get to the target and suffer extra recovery in the process*).

This is bad.

*I really hope there won;t be an additional penalty for switching ranged targets, don't get ideas !!

 


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#3
MoonWolf

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I'm sure that with this well thought counter argument. The Image with rioters with pitchforks and general tone you will convince a lot of people that you have something meaningfull to add to this instad of "I DON'T LIKE IT".

 

Good job. RPG Codex: doesn't scale to your level. Instead just shouts angrily about things it doesn't like.

 

The idea that there is a cost to movement is not exactly bad. In fact its a good idea. And when it comes to engament attacks ( which i'm sure are going to come up) every class has ways to help them disengage.

 

I'm just going to go out and say slowed recovery during movement is a good idea. Moving untill your recovery is over, shooting and then moving again should come with a downside.


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#4
Striped_Wolf

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Isnt this mainly a way to punish ranged characters for kiting away in the few cases where they actually do get targeted?
 

Also, are talents like sprint/charge affected by this?

 


Edited by Striped_Wolf, 19 March 2015 - 03:02 AM.


#5
Sensuki

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I'm sure that with this well thought counter argument. The Image with rioters with pitchforks and general tone you will convince a lot of people that you have something meaningfull to add to this instad of "I DON'T LIKE IT".
 
Good job. RPG Codex: doesn't scale to your level. Instead just shouts angrily about things it doesn't like.


Hey, you can take prejudice against the pitchfork image all you like, I use it for style. Plus this decision makes me bloody angry.

This game already penalizes movement enough with the engagement system, and the ranged recovery penalty. It's like hey guise - stand still, that's the correct way to play because we really wish this was a turn based game, but it has to be RTwP because we promised an Infinity Engine game.

There is zero reason to add a recovery penalty for moving. What does it accomplish? Nothing. All it simply does is penalize builds that favor mobility, and if you want to play 'optimally' you have to put your characters in a retarded clump.

The game used to have completely paused recovery while moving - were you one of the people that didn't care about that? (I assume so).
 

Isnt this mainly a way to punish ranged characters for kiting away in the few cases where they actually do get targeted?


Ranged characters are already penalized for moving because there is already a ranged movement recovery penalty and it it stacks with the general movement recovery mult - you can see it in the formula in the code i posted. That alone is retarded in itself, but I actually made that suggestion just to get paused recovery while moving removed from the game. You don't need either, as ranged weapons have a long recovery time anyway and there is basically no reason to move while ranged except to get in range of a new target.

Have you actually seen people kiting with ranged weapons? I know I haven't. I've been the only person doing kiting videos and I run a single ranged character around in circles while five ranged characters stand completely still and pulverize everyone.

I also removed all recovery movement penalties and Melee Engagement in an earlier patch and tested it and kiting with ranged was absolutely horrible - this is just overcompensation.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 03:13 AM.

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#6
Striped_Wolf

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Sometimes I get the feeling they are implementing these features as a 'dirty' way to sidestep better AI.
But I shouldnt pass out judgements until Ive sat down with the release build for a few hours.
 


Edited by Striped_Wolf, 19 March 2015 - 03:18 AM.

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#7
Tartantyco

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Welcome to another edition of "Why doesn't this game play exactly the way I want it to?"


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#8
Veevoir

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Welcome to another edition of "Why doesn't this game play exactly the way I want it to?"

Or to be more exact, another edition of "Why there are less and less ways to play the game?"


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#9
Sensuki

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Well, for anyone like me and veevoir, we can simply remove that code, no problem but I honestly am baffled at the decision to be honest. 


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#10
mutonizer

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Hmm...

While I agree that total recovery lock-down while moving was bad, some kind of recovery penalty kinda makes sense to me. I mean, running around like a madman while there's a fight going on should come, I think, with some drawbacks. I'm critical enough when they make change that makes no sense and feel completely artificial but gotta say, this one's kinda logical (whatever that means): fast re-positioning is a tactical choice and to be a choice, there needs to be benefits and costs. Heck I'd go even further personally, with DEF penalties added on top (though maybe a REF bonus as well) but that's just me :)

Of course, all that could be solved with a walking stance that wouldn't carry drawbacks (but you move slower of course), but heh, apparently people like being able to run around at full speed in battle for some reason.

#11
Veevoir

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But fast re-positioning is already penalized - by engagement mechanics. And we have talents and skills to circumvent that in game.

This change makes investing in those useless - why would I want to disengage and move if I risk both attack of opportunity and additional penalties for doing so?
What is worse - this almost exclusively penalizes melee. Ranged doesn't need to move and if they do - there are bigger problems than recovery, like reload.


Edited by Veevoir, 19 March 2015 - 03:38 AM.

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#12
Sensuki

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The cost of moving is moving itself, how bloody hard is that to understand for some RPG players. 

If you're using fast weapons, any movement at all is lost actions because recovery time is quick.

If you're using a 2Her or 1H single you've got a bloody long enough recovery time anyway, especially in armor.

 

And yeah on top of that, there's the engagement mechanics. May as well just use a max might/max dex Arquebus I guess? Interrupts don't reset reload animation time. No penalty for fighting in melee ... cool - way to have the opposite intended effect lmao


Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 03:41 AM.

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#13
Tartantyco

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Except it isn't. In the IE games it is often a substantial bonus by avoiding damage, cycling characters, and exploiting AI behavior, and the same would be true in PoE without the engagement mechanic. I think you just have to fundamentally re-evaluate how you play the game, Sensuki.


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#14
Luckmann

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What is it with the war on dynamic combat in this game? I just don't see why Sawyer would think that it's a good idea to look down combat in every possible way. What is it that makes these mechanics fun to play with, or even realistic in the context of the game or universe? What is it that is interesting about a static, immobile battlefield where you are instantly penalized for making any tactical adjustments whatsoever?

I'm just not seeing it.


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#15
AndreaColombo

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I'm with Sensuki on this one.

No reason to penalize movement beyond engagement, which I'm already not a fan of. This is RTwP (in case you missed that particular class, RTwP is a good thing) - deal with it.

If the IE mod removes it, that's one more feature from the mod I'll be using from day one.
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#16
Sensuki

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Except it isn't. In the IE games it is often a substantial bonus by avoiding damage, cycling characters, and exploiting AI behavior, and the same would be true in PoE without the engagement mechanic. I think you just have to fundamentally re-evaluate how you play the game, Sensuki.


If you've seen any of my videos, you'll see that the way I play Icewind Dale and the way I play Pillars of Eternity is completely different because I've adapted to the required style of play for Pillars of Eternity. The recovery time mult does not stop you from doing anything it just makes several decisions worse, and stacks the game more to one particular style of play which is the insanely boring stealth pre-positioning, mass per-encounter alpha-strikes followed by standing still in combat. Combat after the first wave could try and be less banal without having bullcrap like this added on top of it.

This is not a turn-based game - it's an Infinity Engine style RTwp RPG. Infinity Engine style RTwP RPG.


Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 04:01 AM.

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#17
mutonizer

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The cost of moving is moving itself, how bloody hard is that to understand for some RPG players.

You can't include moving as a cost when it's used as a benefit. Unless you're forced to move (because of incoming AE, etc), then it's your tactical choice, therefore a benefit.
And it's hard to understand because it doesn't make any lick of sense to be able to reload and swing without penalties when you're running around at full speed.

And yeah on top of that, there's the engagement mechanics. May as well just use a max might/max dex Arquebus I guess? Interrupts don't reset reload animation time. No penalty for fighting in melee ... cool - way to have the opposite intended effect lmao

If you're (you as a generic you, not you, you) gonna min/max anyway, you'll always go for the most abusing system you can find so if it's not that, it's gonna be something else, forever and ever. Can't design a rule system around that kind of playstyle nor even take it into consideration. You go with an idea within your vision for most "reasonable" situations, try to polish the extremes according to feedback, and see what comes out.

This change makes investing in those useless - why would I want to disengage and move if I risk both attack of opportunity and additional penalties for doing so?

Because if you're a tank surrounded with critters with nasty raw damage poison on hit, and you need to re-position to prevent an ally from getting gibbed, you want to make damn sure you don't get hit by everything on the way.

What is worse - this almost exclusively penalizes melee. Ranged doesn't need to move and if they do - there are bigger problems than recovery, like reload.

My ranged dudes are the ones moving around the most usually. Caster getting into conal position, healer getting in there, bow chanter coming in close to cast invocation. Any delay for these situations can be critical so that makes positioning more important.
For melees, doesn't matter much because half a second delay in attack is not that big deal usually, unless you want to land a stun/interrupt or something.

#18
Sensuki

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You can't include moving as a cost when it's used as a benefit. Unless you're forced to move (because of incoming AE, etc), then it's your tactical choice, therefore a benefit.
And it's hard to understand because it doesn't make any lick of sense to be able to reload and swing without penalties when you're running around at full speed.


This isn't about ranged characters, this is about melee characters. If you want to know how easy reloading is while moving with a bow - check this out
 

If you're (you as a generic you, not you, you) gonna min/max anyway, you'll always go for the most abusing system you can find so if it's not that, it's gonna be something else, forever and ever. Can't design a rule system around that kind of playstyle nor even take it into consideration. You go with an idea within your vision for most "reasonable" situations, try to polish the extremes according to feedback, and see what comes out.


I'm fighting against this because it's not fun, not because of the opposite effects it may have on kiting melee characters.
 

Because if you're a tank surrounded with critters with nasty raw damage poison on hit, and you need to re-position to prevent an ally from getting gibbed, you want to make damn sure you don't get hit by everything on the way.


You already get hit by disengagement attacks from every character you're surrounded by, as well as whatever AoE and ranged attacks are coming at you. All of that can interrupt you as well.
 

For melees, doesn't matter much because half a second delay in attack is not that big deal usually, unless you want to land a stun/interrupt or something.


Yes it is. It penalizes the mobile melee characters, and it promotes a certain style of play - which is pulling enemies into a clump of your guys together and penalizes different initial positioning setups. banalsh1tboring.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 March 2015 - 04:13 AM.


#19
Luckmann

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I'm with Sensuki on this one.

No reason to penalize movement beyond engagement, which I'm already not a fan of. This is RTwP (in case you missed that particular class, RTwP is a good thing) - deal with it.

If the IE mod removes it, that's one more feature from the mod I'll be using from day one.

 

I really, really, really hope that Sawyer is taken off as lead for any expansion or sequel, and replaced with someone that actually wants to make a RTwP game. I've been a bit harsh in my critique of Sawyer before, for several reasons, but I think a lot of issues really just boil down to that he really wants to do a turn-based game, which he's very quick to mention at any given chance, and after playing Divinity: Original Sin, I'd love to see what can be done with a turn-based game of this or that style (I've always considered Jagged Alliance 2 the epitome of turn-based gameplay, but D:OS has a completely different approach that also works, while I have an incredibly low opinion of most other turn-based games, at least when it comes to that aspect of the gameplay).

 

I think both we and Sawyer would all be a lot happier if he got to do a turn-based game and they got someone that wants to work with real-time tactical games to work on the Pillars series. Because this **** clearly isn't working out.


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#20
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I can think of two things to mitigate the slowed recovery time effects of moving around:
A) Fast Runner - Lowers the time it takes to get from Point A to Point B (Thus, lowers the time you are moving/lowers the time you have slowed recovery)
B) Shot on the Run - Lowers Ranged Recovery time by 25% or something.

In essence: I don't have a problem with it, but thanks for the heads up still, it'll be something I'll consider in my positioning, movement and strategy/tactics in combat (I view it as another ingredient to consider). I don't see how it takes away from any tactics whatsoever.


Edited by Osvir, 19 March 2015 - 04:17 AM.

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