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Sensuki

SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

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I wish you hadn't put in your argument that you want it to play more like an RTS. That really becomes a distraction to the fact you aren't wrong about this.

 

Whether you hate or like engagement it's a simple concept. If enemies engage you in melee and you want to run away from them you are going to eat an attack. It's an attack of opportunity and most of us know 3E DnD so whatever. If the goal is to make movement on the battlefield dangerous then whatever it "makes sense." People can argue whether that's a stupid goal or not.

 

What is objectively awful is to punish movement in TWO ways. Obsidian can make your actions take longer because youre moving or they can make you risks attacks for moving around but doing both is terrible.

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I don't think that putting in that I want it to play more like an RTS is a bad thing because the Infinity Engine games were built on the Battleground Infinity Engine, which was an RTS Prototype, and they feel a lot like an RTS-RPG.

 

It might be distracting to some people who come from the opposite end of the spectrum and prefer turn-based combat and "RPG Combat" if that is a thing.

 

THE *BEST* thing about the Infinity Engine games was the combat feel. No Attack of Opportunity crap. Movement and actions came at the same cost (which many D&D players hated, because you couldn't move and then do 5 attacks per round). Perfect transition from something like Warcraft 2 or AoE2.

 

What is objectively awful is to punish movement in TWO ways. Obsidian can make your actions take longer because youre moving or they can make you risks attacks for moving around but doing both is terrible.

Agreed. It's a double whammy.

Edited by Sensuki
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This isn't about ranged characters, this is about melee characters. If you want to know how easy reloading is while moving with a bow - check this out

Oh..please..not that clown again. Ever seen an army composed on knife jugglers and trick-shot artists? Yea, me neither original.gif

 

I'm fighting against this because it's not fun, not because of the opposite effects it may have on kiting melee characters.

 

Yea...fun isn't a valid reason though, not in anything. There are more than 6 billions kind of "fun" on the planet so not sure how you want to do anything based on that.

All I care about is:

  • Does it make sense within the context: Think it does, they clearly want to make the battlefields more stable overall. I like it personally since I like the concept of "battle lines", be it in tabletop or cRPGs as I feel it's more "realistic" (within the context that is). You might not like it, that's cool too.
  • Does it add an interesting mechanic:  Makes you moving around an actual choice with consequences, which I think is interesting.
  • Does it feel artificial: Not really, on the contrary. Moving at full speed while a battle is going on should have consequences, the degree of which is of course up to debate. I've played with 480 a lot and while I never directly asked myself the actual question, it didn't stand out as an issue, which is good enough for me since I do move around when required (and only then).

 

THE *BEST* thing about the Infinity Engine games was the combat feel. No Attack of Opportunity crap. Movement and actions came at the same cost (which many D&D players hated, because you couldn't move and then do 5 attacks per round). Perfect transition from something like Warcraft 2 or AoE2.

That's you though. Personally I think that's actually the worse thing. If I wanted to play DOTA or LOL, I'd go play DOTA or LOL. That's very personal though of course so as usual, to each his own.

Edited by mutonizer
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You don't get to define what an IE game is for everyone else.

And neither do you.

 

Yeah, that was kind of my point... It's a bottom-of-the-barrel argument that's worth ****-all, and using it is pretty weak.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is, do the penalties outweigh the value of mobility? In my opinion, the answer to that is hell yes. I don't see the game promoting static play.


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Yes people reacting in haste with "it's an RPG" is part of the distraction but even more importantly it also turns it into the millionth argument about engagement rather than focusing on what is really a separate issue.

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I don't think that it's intentionally done to force people to play it like "Medieval Total War 6 man party". It's done for some other reason - it playing like that is just the side-effect. It's not only horrible but it's anti-Infinity Engine.

 

It's not an interesting mechanic because doesn't add any choice, it just punishes choices. It punishes mobile builds, and punishes you for using anything other than the same clump positional tactic. This is bad.

 

I think it does feel artificial, and definitely not realistic either but that doesn't really matter.

 

Yes people reacting in haste with "it's an RPG" is part of the distraction but even more importantly it also turns it into the millionth argument about engagement rather than focusing on what is really a separate issue.

I haven't seen any argument about Engagement in the thread so far. I don't intend to argue with anyone about it either, I intend to argue about movement slowing recovery time - with equal fervor, but probably less vitriol.

Edited by Sensuki
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Shot on the Run was created to deal with the ranged move recovery mult that was added into the game in v301/v333 I forget which.

 

Fast Runner doesn't decrease your recovery time.

 

Basically what they've done Osvir is add a flat penalty for everyone when moving regardless of what talents you pick.

 

I'm not playing with it. Just more bad design decisions we have to rip out of the game on release day.

Fast Runner decreases the time it takes for you to get from point A to point B. Meaning, your Slowed Recovery will be in effect for less time (The Chanter also has a +Movement Speed Chant).

Edited by Osvir

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Fast Runner decreases the time it takes for you to get from point A to point B. Meaning, your Slowed Recovery will be in effect for less time.

Oh yeah, that's true. Either way, Fast Runner adds one movement point I think, the difference will almost always be next to nothing. You would most definitely not pick the ability to offset movement recovery slowing because the benefit you get from it is tiiiiiiny.

 

The only time I've ever chosen Fast Runner was on the character I use to kite enemies when I have the rest with ranged off to the side. I think Naumtree uses it with his kiting chanter build too, either way - it's used to get away, not to offset this. It hurts the characters that make many small movements in combat the most.

 

What they do doesn't really affect me - we are removing it. Simple as that. However I'm angered that this was not broached because these kind of things are a hot potato, they tried to sneak it by us without saying anything.

 

I believe it was also in v435 - so it's been in the game for a while. I think they added it in over the Christmas break. I thought movement recovery was slowed in the last patch, but when I checked the NotifyAttackComplete code in AttackBase I couldn't find anything that was doing it. Looked in the wrong class lol. It's strange that they handle recovery time calculations at two different places in the code though.

Edited by Sensuki
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Fast Runner decreases the time it takes for you to get from point A to point B. Meaning, your Slowed Recovery will be in effect for less time.

Oh yeah, that's true. Either way, Fast Runner adds one movement point I think, the difference will almost always be next to nothing. You would most definitely not pick the ability to offset movement recovery slowing because the benefit you get from it is tiiiiiiny.

 

The only time I've ever chosen Fast Runner was on the character I use to kite enemies when I have the rest with ranged off to the side. I think Naumtree uses it with his kiting chanter build too, either way - it's used to get away, not to offset this. It hurts the characters that make many small movements in combat the most.

 

What they do doesn't really affect me - we are removing it. Simple as that. However I'm angered that this was not broached because these kind of things are a hot potato, they tried to sneak it by us without saying anything.

 

 

Thinking about it, it actually dissuades you from taking Fast Runner (a Talent that is already not very good, in a Talent group you usually don't really want to spend talents in) simply because you're penalized when moving anyway. Even if the effect was small before, the effect from Fast Runner was at least constant, but now the effect of Fast Runner will only matter when you do something that will actively screw you.

 

And as you say, it will hurt those that take many small movements in combat the most, and I'll argue that most movement in combat consists of small movements. The difference Fast Runner will do in regards to the slowed recovery rate when moving would be abysmal, to say the least.

 

sawyer.gif

 

Im still waiting for a good reason why this has been implemented.

Pay $10 to hit him up in the echo chamber and you might get your reason.

Edited by Luckmann
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However I'm angered that this was not broached because these kind of things are a hot potato, they tried to sneak it by us without saying anything.

Fact that nobody noticed it for that long and it took you of all people (because you really do hardcore testing I mean) to see it clearly after all that time indicate that it's anything but a hot potato, and even an issue whatsoever.

I mean I clocked 5 full Path of the Damned playthroughs since 480 release, with lots of melee characters and ranged needing to move (chanter bowman) and that didn't stick out like a sore thumb at any point whatsoever.

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I did notice it, and I looked for it in the code but couldn't find anything.

 

Most of the testing I do is looking for bugs, you'd be surprised how little actual playing I do. I think about 90% of my game time is quickly loading a save and testing for bugs on the starting encounter against Medreth or in no encounter at all (usually UI bugs).

 

Also recovery bars are no longer shown unless you're holding TAB or you have that unit selected.

 

By the way - in the last patch, Dexterity was bugged so characters that had higher than 10 Dexterity had slower recovery time instead of faster recovery time. The BB Rogue, BB Priest and BB Wizard all have higher than 10 Dexterity from memory, so it would have been a lot harder for people to notice in the last build because of that.

Edited by Sensuki
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You're making it sound as if it "resets recovery when moving" Sensuki.

I just took down Medreth on Path of the Damned trying to figure out how much it messed with my playstyle, and, I couldn't find it. I didn't feel much impact even when my characters moved around either.

Then again, I can't think of a time where it has been easy to run around and move around, because all enemies run/move so fast (Curse you, run animation!). Only when I did a Solo Rogue with Fast Runner could I run faster than the enemy.

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It makes a difference - one unarmored guy with a sword moving a few metres in the game slows your recovery down for about a second on top of the 1H penalty. Imagine that as a 2H attack in Plate armor, or a 3 second cast time Wizard spell.

Edited by Sensuki

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Fact that nobody noticed it for that long and it took you of all people (because you really do hardcore testing I mean) to see it clearly after all that time indicate that it's anything but a hot potato, and even an issue whatsoever.

I mean I clocked 5 full Path of the Damned playthroughs since 480 release, with lots of melee characters and ranged needing to move (chanter bowman) and that didn't stick out like a sore thumb at any point whatsoever.

The length of time it takes people to find something really doesn't matter at all. If I was stealing money from you for years but it was such a small amount it took you all that time before you realized does that mean anything at all? Of course not. There's a lot of godawful arguments going on in here and ad hominems. 

 

This "I didn't notice it argument" is not a reason to keep it. If anything it is a reason to get rid of it. It's not doing anything except slightly screwing players in a way they may not even notice.... Great mechanic?

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With all these penalties to melee, and the way armor works (heavier armor - slower attacks) – is there anything that makes up for playing an armored knight/paladin-style damage dealer? Do they deal inherently more damage from melee weapons or are their abilities/traits/whatevs better?

 

I was planning to play a ranged rogue anyway (I would want to play ranged ranger like my first BG playthrough, but rangers in PoE seem... weird, and I don't like how pets work), but I'm just curious.

Edited by Zed

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@Sensuki: Great :) adds more tactics to consider, like I said in my other post.

When you play chess you don't think about your immediate move, you think 3-4* moves ahead, or, well, if you want to be good at chess you think 3-4* moves ahead.

The only issue I see here in terms of that is that... there is no movement indicator or movement feedback like there is in Divinity: Original Sin with Action Points. "How many action points does it take to run over there" could perhaps be translated to "How many seconds does it take to run over there" or "How much recovery time do I lose going over there" when hovering the mouse button over a location.

*More like 20 moves ahead xD but Pillars of Eternity isn't chess, so 3-4 moves are more representative.

Edited by Osvir

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Fact that nobody noticed it for that long and it took you of all people (because you really do hardcore testing I mean) to see it clearly after all that time indicate that it's anything but a hot potato, and even an issue whatsoever.

I mean I clocked 5 full Path of the Damned playthroughs since 480 release, with lots of melee characters and ranged needing to move (chanter bowman) and that didn't stick out like a sore thumb at any point whatsoever.

The length of time it takes people to find something really doesn't matter at all. If I was stealing money from you for years but it was such a small amount it took you all that time before you realized does that mean anything at all? Of course not. There's a lot of godawful arguments going on in here and ad hominems. 

 

This "I didn't notice it argument" is not a reason to keep it. If anything it is a reason to get rid of it. It's not doing anything except slightly screwing players in a way they may not even notice.... Great mechanic?

 

It's OK if I key your car as long as you don't notice.

 

Right?

 

 

You didn't miss those brake lines anyway and it'll probably take you weeks to notice either way.

 

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With all these penalties to melee, and the way armor works (heavier armor - slower attacks) – is there anything that makes up for playing an armored knight/paladin-style damage dealer? Do they deal inherently more damage from melee weapons or are their abilities/traits/whatevs better?

 

I was planning to play a ranged rogue anyway (I would want to play ranged ranger like my first BG playthrough, but rangers in PoE seem... weird, and I don't like how pets work), but I'm just curious.

Well, not a moving one anyway. You'd be going into the thick of things with Plate armor and soaking hits for the party while everyone else gets it done.

 

It's OK if I key your car as long as you don't notice.

It is a bit like spitting in your coffee, isn't it ?

Edited by Sensuki

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With all these penalties to melee, and the way armor works (heavier armor - slower attacks) – is there anything that makes up for playing an armored knight/paladin-style damage dealer? Do they deal inherently more damage from melee weapons or are their abilities/traits/whatevs better?

 

You get to be in the thick of the action and hit stuff with your sword, and live to tell about it. You can break engagement with several talents if you want to move around cautiously, and you can sprint/charge with other talents if you want to be fast.

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Keying cars, stealing money, spitting in coffee...

 

Geesh, you guys REALLY want to move around like maniacs don't you? original.gif

I mean I don't mind the change but I don't want anyone to go kill themselves because of this or something...

 

...Damnit, extremists always win! :/

Edited by mutonizer

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I don't like restricted or penalized movement by default systems in the game. Total War - sure, fine. But not this.

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With all these penalties to melee, and the way armor works (heavier armor - slower attacks) – is there anything that makes up for playing an armored knight/paladin-style damage dealer? Do they deal inherently more damage from melee weapons or are their abilities/traits/whatevs better?

 

I was planning to play a ranged rogue anyway (I would want to play ranged ranger like my first BG playthrough, but rangers in PoE seem... weird, and I don't like how pets work), but I'm just curious.

 

Nothing. Ranged DPS is objectively better than Melee DPS and the only thing you want to have in armoured plate is the tank. Classes are balanced independent of the various mechanics in the game, which is great for build variety, but it also assumes that those various mechanics work well together. And.. they don't, really.

 

So where one game would go with the assumption that Paladins will be wearing plate and therefore be gimped when doing damage (due to the pre-existing issues of the armour system itself), they could up the Paladin's damage to have him remain competitive despite his core concept, but PoE makes no such assumption about the Paladin, and he is free to wear anything from Clothes (which is not the same thing as robes, for unclear reasons) to Full Plate.

 

I do not consider that in and of itself a flaw (I in fact consider one of the very best features of PoE) but it does mean that the mechanics, as it stands, is all kinds of messed up in relation to presented concepts and pretty basic assumptions. For example, in PoE, Barbarians does amazingly with Intellect, and if you want to play a damage-dealing Paladin (instead of a tank), you not only will do terribly with Resolve (which you'd otherwise assume to be a prime attribute for Paladins) but you will also be objectively better off dressed in regular clothes than in full plate.

 

But there's threads flying around that can fill you in a lot on that, let's try to not derail this one. :lol:


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this was done to nerf kiting and i'm totally fine with it since the AI is dump. What else is there to be done?


I see the dreams so marvelously sad

 

The creeks of land so solid and encrusted

 

Where wave and tide against the shore is busted

 

While chanting by the moonlit twilight's bed

 

trees (of Twin Elms) could use more of Magran's touch © Durance

 

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But it doesn't even remotely address kiting. It makes it easier

 

In every isometric real time game that has large maps, ranged enemies and different movement speeds - you can kite. You can add as many detrimental systems to the game to try and prevent it, but they usually end up only harming other elements of the gameplay, and not really addressing kiting at all.

Total War actually addresses it fairly well with realism - units get tired after running :p and run slower. This is not Total War though, it's an Infinity Engine style RPG.

Edited by Sensuki
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