Fixing the armor min/maxing: an interesting new gameplay mechanic?

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

Armor in AD&D is pure benefit. That's an example of a binary choice.

 

You can wear no armor to maximize your DPS, but it also means you might get dropped with just a hit or two. That's a risk you take.

In AD&D, maybe, but I didn't say AD&D specifically. The point was that there's different armours, and all of it will get used, based on what choice of class you are and so on. The Min/Maxing will be different based on what you play. There is no such distinction here, which was my whole point. In AD&D, Wizards will use robes, thieves will use leather, and fighters will use full plate.

If a class is locked into a single type of armor, this is binary.

 

In PoE, anyone that isn't a tank will do best in clothes, and the tank will be best supported by people capable of killing things before the party is violently murdered, which armour interferes with.

The other people in this thread say otherwise.

 

 

[GreyFox]

It's pretty lame that the system goes like that...either enchanted tshirts and shorts or Plate.....booooring.

[Luckmann]

If a class is locked into a single type of armor, this is binary.

 

Doesn't matter. The system encourages (albeit through force) different kinds of characters to use different kinds of armour, which, again, was my entire point. There is a meaningful choice in what you want to play and what kind of armour you can and will use. Yes, thieves WILL not be able to wear plate, but leather WILL be used if you have a thief in the group, and part of creating a thief was the knowledge that you would only use leather. And so on.

 

PoE mechanically encourages no different use of armours except as heavy as possible or none at all. For everyone.

 

The other people in this thread say otherwise.

 

That's still not an argument. The most fundamental argument so far has amounted to "Because". There no accounting for personal taste, we're talking strictly about a mechanical, fundamental level here. Like I said, I'll be playing a heavily underoptimized character myself, simply because I will enjoy doing so, but I'd never be able to formulate a coherent argument as to why anyone else would or should do this. I can say "Hey, this is a lot of fun", but it will always be followed by "But remember that it's underoptimized as hell, you will be shooting yourself in the foot".

 

And if someone still wants to do it, no-one cares, just like no-one cared if you decided solo Baldur's Gate or play a Paladin/Barbarian/Bard in Icewind Dale II.

 

If someone wants to gimp themselves, that is perfectly fine, but let's get the facts straight on the matter so there can be a honest discussion. It is a real issue in this system that there is absolutely no incentive to use anything between Clothing and Full Plate beyond "Eh, it's shiny". It's boring, predictable, and binary.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Luckmann

[Headbomb]

It ain't. DPS comes at the cost of protection. You can make perfectly viable non-specialized builds. If you defined "optimization" as "this number here must be maximal", then yes you need to go to extremes. Doesn't mean that someone that's smack in the middle is disadvantaged. Sure you want tanks to be tanky and DPS to be DPSy, but that's like saying you can only create rogues and fighters. It's perfectly fine to put hide armor on your melee priest. You just trade DPS for defence. Or the other way around.

 

Personally, I like Leather on my rogues. Not because it's the rogue archetype, but because I find it offers a good protection/dps tradeoff. Rogues get hit. Naked rogues may damage more, but they'll die more too. If you're fine with that, go for it. I'd rather have more survivability.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Headbomb

[Tartantyco]

I'm going to laugh when everyone running around with naked ranged characters get whooped by enemies burrowing, charging, and teleporting past their frontline.

[Shevek]

I use tend to use scale on my reach users and ranged fighters but I do agree that there few other instances where I would use it.

 

To the OP: your solution is a bit too convoluted. It would be difficult to communicate to the player. I am not sure what other solution would work honestly. Just spitballin, but perhaps small things like in combat movement speed could be the answer? Similarly, you could do speed of stamina regen. So, a character in lighter armor could get a greater bonus from potions and heals due to not being weighed down as much. You could also do the whole you are clumsy in armor thing and give heavier armors a disengagement penalty. These fit thematically and could be communicated to the player easily.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Shevek

[DigitalCrack]

All categories, including no armour, should have differing penalties and bonuses. Like no armour you take almost all direct health damage along with endurance but you get an appropriate bonus for being unhindered by armor. Where as all armor would mitigate that direct health damage and then each category would have a differing bonus along with a penalty.

[View619]

All that being said, how difficult is it to mod the values related to armour types? It's beginning to sound like personal adjustments will need to be made to keep certain armour types relevant, imo.

[Shevek]

I know with weapons, there is a base assest bundle that affects all item files of that type of weapon. I am not sure if that exists for armor. So, you might have to edit each armor file. Time consuming but doable.

 

I am not sure if modding item files currently works. I tried to edit a couple talents and ran into a few stumbling blocks. Once its working, you should be able to add existing scripts (effects) to item files.

[SergeantHans]

Trivializing the content? No. Responding appropriately to the game world and understanding system mastery is part of the RPG experience.

 

 

 

 

As for how I'd fix the armor problem, I'd do two things (Note: all numbers are arbitrary and can be changed)-

 

First, rework the armor recovery times into something sane: 0% recovery penalty for robes and padded, keep plate at 50%, and put everything else on a curve from 10% (leather) to 40% (brigandine).

 

Second, add a % ignore recovery time to Consitution, say at 3% per point. This wouldn't be a percentage reduction, but an absolute number that subtracts from the recovery percentage of armor. So, say a 14 Con character would ignore 12% recovery time, so they would suffer no recovery penalty from the revised number for leather, and drop Plate recovery penalty to 38%.

 

This would encourage some armor on everyone, more use of medium armors, and as a bonus, find a use for Con. Rather than the defacto dragon age style system of 'wizards only wear this and fighters only wear that.' Which is what the current system effectively amounts to while trying to pretend it doesn't by filling in the middle with junk.

This is an excellent idea imo!

[Yonjuro]

...

 

I think a good approach should not affect DPS or speed at all, but instead limit the flexibility of the class. So, my idea would be to limit spellcasters in their spell choices depending on the type of armor.

Spells are divided into "difficulty"-tiers. This is not to be confused with the spell levels.

Each spell gets a certain difficulty tier applied to them:

1) can be cast with all types of armor

2) can be cast with chainmail and below

3) can be cast with leather and below

4) can be cast with light armor and below

5) can only be cast in cloth armor

...

 

 

 I see where you're going with this. It might be useful to give some examples of existing spells that would go with each armor level. The real make or break for your idea is whether the spell system as is (or tuned in a new way) will work with difficulty tiers instead of time penalties, e.g., are there enough, say, level three spells to cast in plate; is there enough of a difference between plate and chain to make chain a viable choice etc. 

 

 How about non-caster classes? I assume physical attacks still have a speed penalty? How about other class abilities?

[illathid]

Trivializing the content? No. Responding appropriately to the game world and understanding system mastery is part of the RPG experience.

 

 

 

 

As for how I'd fix the armor problem, I'd do two things (Note: all numbers are arbitrary and can be changed)-

 

First, rework the armor recovery times into something sane:  0% recovery penalty for robes and padded, keep plate at 50%, and put everything else on a curve from 10% (leather) to 40% (brigandine).

 

Second, add a % ignore recovery time to Consitution, say at 3% per point.  This wouldn't be a percentage reduction, but an absolute number that subtracts from the recovery percentage of armor.  So, say a 14 Con character would ignore 12% recovery time, so they would suffer no recovery penalty from the revised number for leather, and drop Plate recovery penalty to 38%.  

 

This would encourage some armor on everyone, more use of medium armors, and as a bonus, find a use for Con.  Rather than the defacto dragon age style system of 'wizards only wear this and fighters only wear that.'  Which is what the current system effectively amounts to while trying to pretend it doesn't by filling in the middle with junk.

This is a good idea.

[Shevek]

 

Trivializing the content? No. Responding appropriately to the game world and understanding system mastery is part of the RPG experience.

 

 

 

 

As for how I'd fix the armor problem, I'd do two things (Note: all numbers are arbitrary and can be changed)-

 

First, rework the armor recovery times into something sane: 0% recovery penalty for robes and padded, keep plate at 50%, and put everything else on a curve from 10% (leather) to 40% (brigandine).

 

Second, add a % ignore recovery time to Consitution, say at 3% per point. This wouldn't be a percentage reduction, but an absolute number that subtracts from the recovery percentage of armor. So, say a 14 Con character would ignore 12% recovery time, so they would suffer no recovery penalty from the revised number for leather, and drop Plate recovery penalty to 38%.

 

This would encourage some armor on everyone, more use of medium armors, and as a bonus, find a use for Con. Rather than the defacto dragon age style system of 'wizards only wear this and fighters only wear that.' Which is what the current system effectively amounts to while trying to pretend it doesn't by filling in the middle with junk.

This is an excellent idea imo!

That would make con much more worth it.3% seems high but the core idea is sound.

[Arctic]

Trivializing the content? No. Responding appropriately to the game world and understanding system mastery is part of the RPG experience.

 

 

 

 

As for how I'd fix the armor problem, I'd do two things (Note: all numbers are arbitrary and can be changed)-

 

First, rework the armor recovery times into something sane:  0% recovery penalty for robes and padded, keep plate at 50%, and put everything else on a curve from 10% (leather) to 40% (brigandine).

 

Second, add a % ignore recovery time to Consitution, say at 3% per point.  This wouldn't be a percentage reduction, but an absolute number that subtracts from the recovery percentage of armor.  So, say a 14 Con character would ignore 12% recovery time, so they would suffer no recovery penalty from the revised number for leather, and drop Plate recovery penalty to 38%.  

 

This would encourage some armor on everyone, more use of medium armors, and as a bonus, find a use for Con.  Rather than the defacto dragon age style system of 'wizards only wear this and fighters only wear that.'  Which is what the current system effectively amounts to while trying to pretend it doesn't by filling in the middle with junk.

 

I really like that idea, it even works well with things like "tank mages" and so .. you put a 18 constitution in the heaviest armor and go melee with no penalty (well your penalty is having 18 constitucion instead of 18 might, but thats not a penalty, its a build choice) . Not perfect numbers but something like 20 con-> no penalty in heaviest armor .. (will be like .. 6% ?)

 

 

 

* Tell us if someone find a way to mod the (ignore penalty) in constitution!

Edited March 18, 2015 by Arctic

[Doppelschwert]

How is a reduction on recovery time on con conceptually different from an increase in action speed from dex, which is already in the game?

 

Action speed scales with all actions independent of armor while the proposed recovery time on con is conditioned on equipment, which no other stat is? Sounds kind of strange to me.

 

I do think however that using talents in order to decrease the slow down of armor and enhance them would be a good idea.

 

Also, I'm confused because no one seems to mention that currently some armor types already give different numbers of DR to different kind of damage types, thus separating them conceptually?

[Shevek]

Hmm, good point.

[DigitalCrack]

Honestly a quicker fix would probably be just to lessen the speed penalty for everything but plate and then add a penalty for wearing nothing. Like you take a lot more direct health damage when not wearing armor.

[DigitalCrack]

Really some non fighter specific armor handling talents for each category would be fun. You could get different bonuses for specializing in different type of armor.

[mrmonocle]

con as a modifier for the armor recovery time is a nice idea. Whether it's con/3% or con/2% is up to testing though.

Edited March 18, 2015 by mrmonocle

[Ondb]

Because nobody knows how to fix the current system in PE, i would just go back to armor system from IE games. Problem solved.

 

Not sure what next issue will be, but going back to IE solutions will probably work....

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

Also, I'm confused because no one seems to mention that currently some armor types already give different numbers of DR to different kind of damage types, thus separating them conceptually?

 

I mentioned it. It's just that those different numbers doesn't actually matter enough. Like. At all. Much like the different weapon types except for very select opponents (from what we have seen). Which is also why I suggested ramping them all up.

[Shdy314]

Because nobody knows how to fix the current system in PE, i would just go back to armor system from IE games. Problem solved.

 

Not sure what next issue will be, but going back to IE solutions will probably work....

I see someone didn't read the whole thread. The problem is that it is just like IE. There's no purpose for middle tier armors beyond aesthetics.

[drunetovich]

Sorry if this was already pointed out, but OP view on available armor choices seem too narrow - like if we all going to run in baseline chainmails-plates-robes. That is not the case, every armor will have some enchantments that may make it much more appealing to wear, even if it gives less base DR. For example you may find a leather armor that will give +might +dex and some heavy +crushing and fire resist, and it may turn out to be more appealing than your plate on tank or leopard shorts on barbarian.

[wickermoon]

If I understood correctly, then the only reason melée DDs are wearing cloth instead of leather is because they're not threatened to be damaged (although my Rogue got attacked on a constant basis, but that might just be confirmation bias), am I right? If so, then working on that issue would bring more to the table than trying to balance cloth and leather armour.

 

Honestly, if I was never in any danger of being attacked, I would choose the armour which would give me the least penalties. And seeing as there's no need for DR if you're not attacked, DR doesn't matter at all.

 

As I've said, I didn't notice my melée DDs not getting attacked. To be honest, my Rogue was attacked several times and my priest was even worse off here and there. But if this was actually the issue, then the problem isn't with the current armour penalties. Again, if there's no need for heavier armour, then the threat system itself is flawed and needs to be reworked, not the armours.

[Voss]

How is a reduction on recovery time on con conceptually different from an increase in action speed from dex, which is already in the game?

 

Action speed scales with all actions independent of armor while the proposed recovery time on con is conditioned on equipment, which no other stat is? Sounds kind of strange to me.

 

I do think however that using talents in order to decrease the slow down of armor and enhance them would be a good idea.

 

Also, I'm confused because no one seems to mention that currently some armor types already give different numbers of DR to different kind of damage types, thus separating them conceptually?

Well, conceptually, its about being tough enough and conditioned for the armor.  The change to the lower DR armors is to remove the penalty for even thinking about armor, which I find pretty strange.  If you want to encourage a variety of strategies and builds, you don't put a penalty on the minimums.  

 

As to the difference with dex- quite a bit. Dex modifies the action animation, while the armor penalty affects the recovery animation.  Totally different timers. 

 

As for the armor type issue.  Eh.  Part of it is presumably 'realism,' but what it mostly comes down to is exploiting the inventory system, switching armors out that best fit the enemies you've just spotted.  Aside from gaming the system, I don't see a lot of benefit.