Apologies to Obsidian

[IndiraLightfoot]

As a big fan of NWN2, FO:NV and several other games that the good folks at Obsidian have made,

I just want to get this off of my chest, so here goes! 

(The similarity of this exclamation to what Khelgar Ironfist uttered on a certain pivotal occasion

in a certain formerly bugbear-infested cave is just incidental).

 

I apologize to Obsidian for any harsh words of mine. I've made a few posts that have come across as overly entitled, needy or even self-righteous, and often it's been a matter of mere minutiae in a computer game (PoE). Most of the time, I've written these posts with good intentions, and in a few cases to further stuff I believe in (far too strongly, I mean, it's just stuff in a CRPG).

 

I also apologize in a more general manner, on a community level, for the vitriolic atmosphere that has slowly eaten its way into your forums. Obviously, I can't speak for the entire community, not even a few of the people who have frequented these boards over the years, but to me, at least, it's been a bit scary to see all too many threads turn into toxic cesspools of latent frustration and uninhibited reptile-brain responses.

 

I have no intention of growing any harder skin than I have. My view of what constitutes acceptable behaviour or not will always be a bit more old-fashioned than many young ones, to be sure, who are clearly much more laissez faire and much more post-2010 in their internet habits. At times, I have let myself down and become pretty spiteful and appalling in tone, at least in retrospect. For this, I am truly sorry.

 

There are ways to criticize people, hard-working devs included, without resorting to snarky remarks and know-it-all besserwisserness. Failing to do so is our burden to bear, and it certainly becomes embarrassing and draining pretty quick. Some common decency, nice courtesy and mutual respect would go a long way - the same goes for a positive attitude and an optimistic spirit. If we all could stick to such simple and civilized ideals, we would do these forums a huge favour.

 

Anybody should feel safe to post here on the Obsidian forums, always! He or she should be properly welcomed, respectfully treated and included in the basic format of assumed social civility that I hope most of us keep up in our face-to-face relationships at work and at home.

 

Well, that's just me, having spoken my piece.

 

Peace and love! 

 

Indira

Edited January 26, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[salo]

I agree. I usually just lurk on forums, but I've been shying away from this one a bit, since I don't really feel like spending my time on many of these threads. I certainly do not fault Obsidian employees for doing the same and spending their time and energy on the game rather than the boards!

[Leferd]

In normal behavior, when one is either directly or indirectly bad mouthed, the normal response would be to either to dish it back out and engage or walk away. Those that are non-confrontational in nature would be more likely to walk away and disengage from discussion rather than participate.

 

See what's happening here?

 

*edit* looks like the post I was responding to was disappeared.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Leferd

[ruzen]

What da hell is going on in this forum 

 

...We are getting close to release, hang in there!

[Marcvs Caesar]

In normal behavior, when one is either directly or indirectly bad mouthed, the normal response would be to either to dish it back out and engage or walk away. Those that are non-confrontational in nature would be more likely to walk away and disengage from discussion rather than participate.

 

See what's happening here?

 

*edit* looks like the post I was responding to was disappeared.

 

How often do members of the forum 'bad-mouth' others? I think it's pretty rare.

 

Yeah, a mod probably censored it. Oh, well.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Marcvs Caesar

[Osvir]

A nice sentiment Indira

I apologise too, but not to the Developers. To the forum and community members that I've been hard, harsh or toxic towards. Sorry guys and gals for that. Whenever stuff like that happens, that's mostly frustration within myself in some way (I don't get my message across, I need to explain more because I don't feel understood, I might have had a horrible day, I might not fully understand what others are talking about, I want to participate in a discussion but I don't want to read 20 pages etc.).

I'm sure lots of people have been frustrated or angry about my attitude at times too. So, again, sorry. I've made amends, and tried to make amends, and whenever I've come across someone and had a bit of a word-feud with anybody, I've tried to make amends or at least communicate in private (PM) and trying to make myself understood and to understand the one who I've "battled" with. Some success, some epic fail.

I think this is important too. Whoever you've fought with on the forums, talk to them in PM, try to have a conversation. Try to understand each other. Discuss on equal footing rather than trying to "Win" something. A lot of the "toxic" discussion seems to me to be more about "I am right, you are wrong" than "Interesting that you feel that way", or you know, civil discourse.

Everything else from me has been passion, excitement, visions, brainstorms, dreams, advocating for and against ideas amongst the members. Never have I held any ill towards any of the Obsidian developers or their company but if they've ever felt threatened or nervous by my presence in whatever shape or form, then I apologise for invoking such feelings upon them.

You guys & gals rock! :D hugs! <3

EDIT: (Read this latter part as a second post)

What da hell is going on in this forum  

 

...We are getting close to release, hang in there!

 

We're tense, excited, exhausted, lots of waiting, lots of posting, and now it's pretty much over. We're walking through a desert, and the oasis feels far away. We are indeed close! And we will indeed hang in there! :D

However, I do hope Obsidian gets enough revenue from PoE so that they return profit and can develop Pillars of Eternity 2 without Kickstarter. Or like Larian Studios, a "Stretch Goal"-Kickstarter. Divinity: Original Sin was always going to come out, but Larian chose Kickstarter to expand and improve the game. Subsequentially: The Funding Goal was smaller.

It might be a model for Pillars of Eternity 2, or for another title which is supposed to be released, but more can always be developed or improved on the product.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Osvir

[Leferd]

@caesar

 

It's not nearly to the Codexian level - and even there lots of it is in good fun, but here there has been growing nastiness whether it's passive aggressive or directed. And that's not good fun.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Leferd

[dorkboy]

I too would like to apologize for IndiraLightfoot's behaviour. We all know it has at times been appalling, but he's promised to better himself - and that's really all that matters! 

[IndiraLightfoot]

A nice sentiment Indira

 

I apologise too, but not to the Developers. To the forum and community members that I've been hard, harsh or toxic towards. Sorry guys and gals for that. Whenever stuff like that happens, that's mostly frustration within myself in some way (I don't get my message across, I need to explain more because I don't feel understood, I might have had a horrible day, I might not fully understand what others are talking about, I want to participate in a discussion but I don't want to read 20 pages etc.).

 

I'm sure lots of people have been frustrated or angry about my attitude at times too. So, again, sorry. I've made amends, and tried to make amends, and whenever I've come across someone and had a bit of a word-feud with anybody, I've tried to make amends or at least communicate in private (PM) and trying to make myself understood and to understand the one who I've "battled" with. Some success, some epic fail.

 

I think this is important too. Whoever you've fought with on the forums, talk to them in PM, try to have a conversation. Try to understand each other. Discuss on equal footing rather than trying to "Win" something. A lot of the "toxic" discussion seems to me to be more about "I am right, you are wrong" than "Interesting that you feel that way", or you know, civil discourse.

 

Everything else from me has been passion, excitement, visions, brainstorms, dreams, advocating for and against ideas amongst the members. Never have I held any ill towards any of the Obsidian developers or their company but if they've ever felt threatened or nervous by my presence in whatever shape or form, then I apologise for invoking such feelings upon them.

 

You guys & gals rock! :D hugs! <3

Lovely post, Osvir!

 

You are absolutely right. I certainly would like to take this opportunity to apologize to any of you who's had the misfortune of experiencing me on my worst behaviour. If I offended you or simply was a jerk, I am very sorry for that. I got carried away and let my own frustrations get the better of me.

[Nonek]

I apologise for the romance thread existing.

[Blarghagh]

I apologise for the romance thread existing.

 

Why? You're not responsible for that one.

 

I am.

[lordkim]

Ill wait to apologize  when i have played the game for awhile...........

[Tale]

I'm just a lowly moderator, but I appreciate the sentiment too.

 

I know how you feel, I've gone hostile at times and regret it, usually in regards to other developers and their work, maybe not so much Obsidian. I wouldn't be against getting a PM if you see me that way, here or elsewhere.

[forgottenlor]

As a big fan of NWN2, FO:NV and several other games that the good folks at Obsidian have made,

I just want to get this off of my chest, so here goes! 

(The similarity of this exclamation to what Khelgar Ironfist uttered on a certain pivotal occasion

in a certain formerly bugbear-infested cave is just incidental).

 

I apologize to Obsidian for any harsh words of mine. I've made a few posts that have come across as overly entitled, needy or even self-righteous, and often it's been a matter of mere minutiae in a computer game (PoE). Most of the time, I've written these posts with good intentions, and in a few cases to further stuff I believe in (far too strongly, I mean, it's just stuff in a CRPG).

 

I also apologize in a more general manner, on a community level, for the vitriolic atmosphere that has slowly eaten its way into your forums. Obviously, I can't speak for the entire community, not even a few of the people who have frequented these boards over the years, but to me, at least, it's been a bit scary to see all too many threads turn into toxic cesspools of latent frustration and uninhibited reptile-brain responses.

 

I have no intention of growing any harder skin than I have. My view of what constitutes acceptable behaviour or not will always be a bit more old-fashioned than many young ones, to be sure, who are clearly much more laissez faire and much more post-2010 in their internet habits. At times, I have let myself down and become pretty spiteful and appalling in tone, at least in retrospect. For this, I am truly sorry.

 

There are ways to criticize people, hard-working devs included, without resorting to snarky remarks and know-it-all besserwisserness. Failing to do so is our burden to bear, and it certainly becomes embarrassing and draining pretty quick. Some common decency, nice courtesy and mutual respect would go a long way - the same goes for a positive attitude and an optimistic spirit. If we all could stick to such simple and civilized ideals, we would do these forums a huge favour.

 

Anybody should feel safe to post here on the Obsidian forums, always! He or she should be properly welcomed, respectfully treated and included in the basic format of assumed social civility that I hope most of us keep up in our face-to-face relationships at work and at home.

 

Well, that's just me, having spoken my piece.

 

Peace and love! 

 

Indira

While I appreciate your sentiments, your posts are rather tame compared to a lot of ones on this forum.

[Blarghagh]

I'm just a lowly moderator, but I appreciate the sentiment too.

 

I know how you feel, I've gone hostile at times and regret it, usually in regards to other developers and their work, maybe not so much Obsidian. I wouldn't be against getting a PM if you see me that way, here or elsewhere.

 

Yeah, I appreciate this thread. Not just for Obsidian, but for the community. As mods we sometimes only get to really focus on the negative parts and it's nice to see positive sentiments. We love the fact that people are passionate about this stuff because that's what we are, and the fact that we're even neccesary is a showing of how passionate people really are. Even the times when people get angry and say nasty things it's because they care so much and just want everything to be awesome. I know that before I was a mod I flipped my lid a couple of times and said some nasty stuff to people and I totally regret it.

[Naurgalen]

This thread is so sweet that my eyes -accustomed to the other posts- are bleeding.

[Uomoz]

A bunch of grognards should be simply banned for the greater good. That'd make this a much better place to really discuss about stuff game-related and not personalities-related.

[Nonek]

I...I apologise for being a grognard?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I apologise for the romance thread existing.

 

 

Why? You're not responsible for that one.

 

I am.

He's English, they're required to apologize at least once an hour for something.

[Reever]

Nice thread!

 

People should always try to be constructive in their criticism and not attack anybody personally. Also, they should keep in mind that their opinion is not the end-all be-all. And that this ain't the end of the world. Should help them calm down a bit.

 

 

.....argh, who am I kidding? This is the internet. Still, would be nice if people reminded themselves they're talking to other people now and then.

[Stun]

I...I apologise for being a grognard?

Same

 

I announce and extend my deepest Grognardian mea culpa on behalf and my....tribe/gang/group/club/cult/brotherhood/family etc. There's simply no justification or excuse for my (our) existence. I'm....Sorry.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Stun

[Quadrone]

Though I like the good intention of this thread I can't entirely agree with Indra there.

Yes, the atmosphere could have been a lot better at times and that is regrettable.

But even then it was never *toxic*, tense at best. (Ignoring the more obvious sh*tposting threads)

I'm hardly one to side with the grogs but I do think it's not right to apologize for having an opinion and having to shelter the devs from negativity. 

The worst of the never-ending debates could maybe have been cut short by a definite reply by Obs. They don't have to compulsively post an answer in every thread of course, but when the silence becomes deafening then it's just natural that the mood turns sour for some. Case in point:

I've gained a big deal of respect for Sensuki after I've made a couple measly bug reports lately and none of them got acknowledged. How he keeps on caring enough to punch out dozens of reports per patch is beyond me.

[Gromnir]

@caesar

 

It's not nearly to the Codexian level - and even there lots of it is in good fun, but here there has been growing nastiness whether it's passive aggressive or directed. And that's not good fun.

is this a passive aggressive response directed at the thread originator? probably not, but it should be. on the rare occasion we felt the need to apologize to a developer or fellow poster, we always found that a pm or email were the best option available to us. over dramatic public hand wringing strikes us as a bit disingenuous and ultimately counter-productive as such "apologies" is most likely to result in exacerbating the vitriolic atmosphere the thread originator claims to regret... unless o'course the actual intent were a metaphorical rock-toss at the forum hornet's nest, in which case the apology would still be disingenuous but hardly counter-productive. 

 

as a side note, can anything in a thread such as this be relevant or on-topic?  nothing to see here that is actual related to game development. as such, we apologize for responding in this thread, and we will avoid it henceforth.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

@caesar

 

It's not nearly to the Codexian level

It's not nearly to the BSN level either. And definitely not to the Bethsoft forum level.

 

Relatively speaking, these forums are as civil as gaming forums can ever be. The echo chamber ideal some of you seem to be seeking is just as unhealthy as it is unattainable. And you wouldn't want it anyway, whether you think you do or not. If you're here, then that means you're a GAMER, and gamers are competitive by definition. Thus a forum filled with nothing but quiet, peaceful agreement will bore any gamer away rather quickly.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Stun

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

The echo chamber ideal some of you seem to be seeking is just as unhealthy as it is unattainable. And you wouldn't want it anyway, whether you think you do or not. If you're here, then that means you're a GAMER, and gamers are competitive by definition. 

 

 

...My knee-jerk reaction was "this sounds like a false generalization", but you might be onto something here.

 

Intriguingly, I've observed a much less toxic atmosphere on most tabletop RPG forums I frequent. Tabletop RPGs placing an emphasis on cooperation and shared storytelling might be responsible for that (whether by actively shaping the way participants handle conflict, or by attracting the kind of people who are less interested in competition is up to the reader to decide).

 

But this is highly offtopic.