US tortures

[Kroney]

There isn't a nation powerful enough, or motivated enough, to take the US down and little pissant terrorist organizations already have the hurt in the butt. So who's going to teach us this lesson?

What ended the British Empire in the end wasn't a lack of military power, but money and the desire of subject nations to break free of its control. The US is a different proposition but does play a similar role, globally. It isn't difficult to see other nations turning to countries like India and China, even Brazil, for protection and trade in the future. Sure, it might take decades, but I reckon you're probably already on the right path. As for money, the recent recession shows that you're not untouchable on that front.

 

Nothing lasts forever, old boy. The Romans and the Victorians thought otherwise and the only thing the world had to do to prove them wrong was wait long enough.

[pmp10]

I think you guys are gravely underestimating the implications and potential negative consequences of this behaviour.

I really doubt that.

Torture has been fundamental in fighting insurgencies for decades.

Pretty much any country facing a serious terror movement will do the same.

Edited December 11, 2014 by pmp10

[Zoraptor]

You make the fallacy that you think people will actually make an honest and intelligent appraisal.

 

 

I don't really, I even explicitly stated that China for one wouldn't make an honest appraisal no matter what the US did. That doesn't stop others from making honest appraisals though. Countries and political systems are discrete entities, democracy in somewhere like Norway doesn't get tarnished just because the US tortures people since conflating the two isn't an honest approach.

[213374U]

What is the most astounding to me is the stupidity of it all. During the Middle Ages people would confess they had flown on a broomstick with Satan while under torture, what made the CIA think their torture would give better results? This so insipid I don't even know where to start. Why would the US employ a policy which seems almost like it is made to be useless and then backfire?

 

Because the people directing it now have PhDs and conduct tortures "scientifically"? It's like all those medical experiments carried out at Auschwitz — there was a rationale for them and they were directed by someone with researcher credentials. Turned out it was just a sick bastard abusing power to realize his own deranged fantasies. It's not too difficult to indoctrinate a grunt, a security guard or an army officer, to believe in that.

 

As for those wishing that the CIA was done away with, well, good luck with that. The US intelligence apparatus is just a part of the deep state, also comprised of lobbysts, NGOs, media outlets, private contractors and more that have gradually wrested power away from elected officials. It essentially operates on autopilot and dismantling it is impossible due to its sheer size as long as the money keeps flowing and the country doesn't tear itself apart. The most egregious proof of this is how Obama not only continued his predecessor's policies but expanded on them, despite his harsh criticisms and promises before he came to power. The President is powerless.

 

I already posted this some time ago, but it's good reading for anyone, especially American taxpayers: Top Secret America, a hidden world growing beyond control

 

Quick guys, put on your tinfoil hats!

[JadedWolf]

Things like this really make me quite pessimistic about the future. What kind of world are we heading to? The Geneva convention just seems like a dead letter at this point. We are perfectly willing to allow our governments to hold people without them even being formally accused of anything, and to torture them in all sorts of horrible ways. And after a few years a report comes out and all they can do is say "Well, yes, we did make some mistakes in our zeal to persue these horrible terrorists, but let's be honest who can really blame us, and look, aren't we wonderful that we are actually being honest about this?"

 

It seems that all these rogue states that we condemn are just not blessed with the right spindoctors. Maybe if you are some Middle-Eastern dictator what you should do is just say "Yes, we did make some mistakes using that mustard gas against our own population in our zeal to persue those horrible terrorists, but we were in rather a bend at the time, and aren't we really wonderful to being completely honest about this and writing a nice lenghty report about how we regret this?"

[BruceVC]

Things like this really make me quite pessimistic about the future. What kind of world are we heading to? The Geneva convention just seems like a dead letter at this point. We are perfectly willing to allow our governments to hold people without them even being formally accused of anything, and to torture them in all sorts of horrible ways. And after a few years a report comes out and all they can do is say "Well, yes, we did make some mistakes in our zeal to persue these horrible terrorists, but let's be honest who can really blame us, and look, aren't we wonderful that we are actually being honest about this?"

 

It seems that all these rogue states that we condemn are just not blessed with the right spindoctors. Maybe if you are some Middle-Eastern dictator what you should do is just say "Yes, we did make some mistakes using that mustard gas against our own population in our zeal to persue those horrible terrorists, but we were in rather a bend at the time, and aren't we really wonderful to being completely honest about this and writing a nice lenghty report about how we regret this?"

 

No Jaded I beg you  don't get jaded about the future of Western Democracies, you know how sensitive you are and you will just unnecessarily upset yourself

 

 

Please read what I am about to say. Of course in wartime there will be exceptions to what governments will normally do and what the average citizen thinks is acceptable. After 9/11 this happened but it was necessary and that is why certain  governments agreed to house CIA black sites. Despite what many people on these forums will tell you the "War on Terror " is real but its more a war on Islamic fundamentalism and many countries have been victims of  attacks by Islamic extremists. So when 9/11 occurred the level of concern about this type of terrorism was heightened to an unprecedented level..and it was perfectly justified due to the power and effectiveness of Al-Qaeda at the time

 

The people who were subjected to this type of "torture "  were people Khaled sheikh Mohammed, you know who he was right? One of the primary architects of 9/11, a man who personally planned and celebrated the deaths of thousands. And you expect me to feel sorry for him because he had water splashed on his face. No he gets no pity from me

,

So now you understand why many countries agreed to help the CIA. It doesn't reflect on the country or the government, it was a wartime decision and these things happen and will continue to happen because they are necessary at times. It not like your government is going now start waterboarding its own citizens. So don't read too much into this program and the tacit support Europe gave it

Edited December 11, 2014 by BruceVC

[JadedWolf]

Bruce, I have no doubt there were some very bad people among these people, but it seems to me they haven't exactly used a finetooth comb when they decided who to pick up. "Innocent until proven guilty" has in this case been turned completely on its head to "guilty until we torture you enough that we believe you might be innocent". You may be fine with that, but I can assure you that you won't like the sort of future that line of thinking leads to.

[BruceVC]

Bruce, I have no doubt there were some very bad people among these people, but it seems to me they haven't exactly used a finetooth comb when they decided who to pick up. "Innocent until proven guilty" has in this case been turned completely on its head to "guilty until we torture you enough that we believe you might be innocent". You may be fine with that, but I can assure you that you won't like the sort of future that line of thinking leads to.

Okay so lets talk the possible future and what troubles you

 

The Netherlands was complicit with the CIA so in the last 7 years since this type of interrogation was used what laws have changed in your country that is a direct result of what the Netherlands did with the CIA ?

[JadedWolf]

Why would I limit myself specifically to the Netherlands? The world is a larger place . 

 

Regardless, the point is that if something like this can happen once, it can happen again. And just because I'm not an arab or muslim doesn't mean it doesn't worry me that next time a group could be targetted that I might be a part of.

 

Or perhaps I shouldn't worry about such things because I am white. Is that this white privilege you keep talking about? Sorry, rather a cheap shot but sometimes your way of thinking just really is rather exasperating. Your moral compass seems to be quite strong, but I can't help but think it needs some serious calibrating.

[Valsuelm]

 

Bruce, I have no doubt there were some very bad people among these people, but it seems to me they haven't exactly used a finetooth comb when they decided who to pick up. "Innocent until proven guilty" has in this case been turned completely on its head to "guilty until we torture you enough that we believe you might be innocent". You may be fine with that, but I can assure you that you won't like the sort of future that line of thinking leads to.

Okay so lets talk the possible future and what troubles you

 

The Netherlands was complicit with the CIA so in the last 7 years since this type of interrogation was used what laws have changed in your country that is a direct result of what the Netherlands did with the CIA ?

 

 

Here's something for you Bruce, if you weren't already aware:

 

There are numerous laws in the U.S. that make what the CIA did illegal on many levels. Violations of multiple parts of the U.S. Constitution itself, violations of various laws specifically outlawing torture, violations of various laws limiting what the CIA is allowed to do, violation of various treaties the U.S. has signed (though I myself don't think we should have signed most if not all of them), violations of statutes requiring the proper informing of Congress/President/etc, and more. Enough to put the folks behind this behind bars for a long long time if they weren't above the law and we actually prosecuted (something that isn't going to happen anytime soon but should). Heck, some of what they've done is very arguably treason, which can carry the death penalty here.

 

Even if one accepts for a moment (I do not, but for the of argument I will) that what the CIA did to the various people it detained was perfectly fine in a war time situation, the implications of allowing them to break all the laws they have and get away with it are huge. On an international scale, perhaps not so much (though I do think Rostere is generally right that things like this are used by some as an argument against republics/democracy/capitalism, because some in fact do), but internally the situation is ultimately dire for it's evidence the U.S. has fallen far from what it once was, has become something that most of the people who founded and ran this nation for the first 100+ years would have fought against, and ultimately all of this completely undermines law, order, justice, and the rights of the individual within the U.S..

 

Now, people who support what the CIA did of course generally do not see that dire on the horizon, or the evidence of it that's already manifested, or they don't care. These people are for the most part by and large pure evil, ignorant, or just plain stupid as they lack the ability to perceive cause and effect along with an appreciation of the basic sentiments of many of those around them. This is not a popular thing within the U.S. at all, and many of the people who have a problem with what the CIA has done and a number of other egregious assaults on what this nation was and is supposed to be (because this CIA torture thing is not the sole egregious assault, not even close sadly) are buying guns, ammo, and stockpiling resources, and that's no joke though I'm sure many here will brush off the various implications of that. It is not just your imagined tin foil hat wearing people, country bumkins, and doomsday prophets doing this. Many Average Joes, along with many of those in the military itself has been doing this for while now....

 

It's not going to be China, India, or anyone else that brings the day of reckoning home to the U.S as some this thread are thinking, it's going to be people within the U.S. itself.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Gfted1]

Nothing lasts forever, old boy. The Romans and the Victorians thought otherwise and the only thing the world had to do to prove them wrong was wait long enough.

Agreed, nothing lasts forever. Fortunately Im not worried about forever. Im worried about the here and now that I live in and currently theres nobody that can take the US down. If we wait long enough, approximately 7.6 billion years, the sun will become a red giant and engulf the Earth.  Hahahaha, suck it China.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Bruce, I have no doubt there were some very bad people among these people, but it seems to me they haven't exactly used a finetooth comb when they decided who to pick up. "Innocent until proven guilty" has in this case been turned completely on its head to "guilty until we torture you enough that we believe you might be innocent". You may be fine with that, but I can assure you that you won't like the sort of future that line of thinking leads to.

Okay so lets talk the possible future and what troubles you

 

The Netherlands was complicit with the CIA so in the last 7 years since this type of interrogation was used what laws have changed in your country that is a direct result of what the Netherlands did with the CIA ?

 

 

Here's something for you Bruce, if you weren't already aware:

 

There are numerous laws in the U.S. that make what the CIA did illegal on many levels. Violations of multiple parts of the U.S. Constitution itself, violations of various laws specifically outlawing torture, violations of various laws limiting what the CIA is allowed to do, violation of various treaties the U.S. has signed (though I myself don't think we should have signed most if not all of them), violations of statutes requiring the proper informing of Congress/President/etc, and more. Enough to put the folks behind this behind bars for a long long time if they weren't above the law and we actually prosecuted (something that isn't going to happen anytime soon but should). Heck, some of what they've done is very arguably treason, which can carry the death penalty here.

 

Even if one accepts for a moment (I do not, but for the of argument I will) that what the CIA did to the various people it detained was perfectly fine in a war time situation, the implications of allowing them to break all the laws they have and get away with it are huge. On an international scale, perhaps not so much (though I do think Rostere is generally right that things like this are used by some as an argument against republics/democracy/capitalism, because some in fact do), but internally the situation is ultimately dire for it's evidence the U.S. has fallen far from what it once was, has become something that most of the people who founded and ran this nation for the first 100+ years would have fought against, and ultimately all of this completely undermines law, order, justice, and the rights of the individual within the U.S..

 

Now, people who support what the CIA did of course generally do not see that dire on the horizon, or the evidence of it that's already manifested, or they don't care. These people are for the most part by and large pure evil, ignorant, or just plain stupid as they lack the ability to perceive cause and effect along with an appreciation of the basic sentiments of many of those around them. This is not a popular thing within the U.S. at all, and many of the people who have a problem with what the CIA has done and a number of other egregious assaults on what this nation was and is supposed to be (because this CIA torture thing is not the sole egregious assault, not even close sadly) are buying guns, ammo, and stockpiling resources, and that's no joke though I'm sure many here will brush off the various implications of that. It is not just your imagined tin foil hat wearing people, country bumkins, and doomsday prophets doing this. Many Average Joes, along with many of those in the military itself has been doing this for while now....

 

It's not going to be China, India, or anyone else that brings the day of reckoning home to the U.S as some this thread are thinking, it's going to be people within the U.S. itself.

 

 

This is a very insightful post, you have created some doubt in my original perspective and that's rare

 

I can at  least empathize and  understand more  of why people are unhappy with the contents of the report

[Malcador]

 

Nothing lasts forever, old boy. The Romans and the Victorians thought otherwise and the only thing the world had to do to prove them wrong was wait long enough.

Agreed, nothing lasts forever. Fortunately Im not worried about forever. Im worried about the here and now that I live in and currently theres nobody that can take the US down. If we wait long enough, approximately 7.6 billion years, the sun will become a red giant and engulf the Earth.  Hahahaha, suck it China.

 

Think it's 4 or 5. Saw a show once detailing what might happen, was rather neat when it got to the planetary firestorm that results from a resurgence of oxygen into the atmosphere.

[Sarex]

Agreed, nothing lasts forever. Fortunately Im not worried about forever. Im worried about the here and now that I live in and currently theres nobody that can take the US down. If we wait long enough, approximately 7.6 billion years, the sun will become a red giant and engulf the Earth.  Hahahaha, suck it China.

 

I really don't know what gives you that kind of confidence, but from out here it seem anything but certain.

[Gfted1]

I could be off by a few billion years but that's the general scientific consensus.

[Sarex]

I could be off by a few billion years but that's the general scientific consensus.

 

LoL, I deserved that one.

[HoonDing]

"US tortures"

 

In other news: bears **** in the forest.

[Hurlshort]

 

Agreed, nothing lasts forever. Fortunately Im not worried about forever. Im worried about the here and now that I live in and currently theres nobody that can take the US down. If we wait long enough, approximately 7.6 billion years, the sun will become a red giant and engulf the Earth.  Hahahaha, suck it China.

 

I really don't know what gives you that kind of confidence, but from out here it seem anything but certain.

 

 

Is out here not in the US?  Because within the US there are some areas that are struggling, but as a whole the country is stable.  Sure, there is economic concerns, but the amount of hyperbole about them is pretty crazy.  It's way overstated.  Of course, news stories about how the economy is making miniscule steps forward is really not sexy, so you have to blow stuff up to get attention. 

[Amentep]

 

Nothing lasts forever, old boy. The Romans and the Victorians thought otherwise and the only thing the world had to do to prove them wrong was wait long enough.

Agreed, nothing lasts forever. Fortunately Im not worried about forever. Im worried about the here and now that I live in and currently theres nobody that can take the US down. If we wait long enough, approximately 7.6 billion years, the sun will become a red giant and engulf the Earth.  Hahahaha, suck it China.

 

 

"Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future."

[Hormalakh]

This is very true but the more important point is that that we don't want a world without the USA and its Western ideology

 

Imagine living like  the Chinese or following the doctrines of Russia or the Middle East....it would be depressing

have you been to china or the middle east or are your horror stories from the "news?"

 

Though to be clear, living in a world without the US is not something I want, I don't know if your ignorant dismissal of the rest of the world is the way I'd go about expressing it.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

 

Well his point was basically that nothing lasts forever, so he's right. But even so, the US has done a good job of playing the game post WW2. Testament to power in that the reaction to this will be mainly words from other nations.

 

Exactly.

 

Bitter Mideast greets US torture report with shrug.

 

 

Arab governments might have been expected to seize on the report, but their reaction too was muted. That's in part because many U.S. allies in the region were directly complicit in the rendition and interrogation programs. Also, nearly all Arab governments have long employed similar brutality against their own political prisoners.

These same governments are allies of the United States. The same ones where their people have revolted against those dictatorships and become anti-American governments.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Zoraptor]

 

This is very true but the more important point is that that we don't want a world without the USA and its Western ideology

 

Imagine living like  the Chinese or following the doctrines of Russia or the Middle East....it would be depressing

have you been to china or the middle east or are your horror stories from the "news?"

 

 

Bruce has certainly* been to Saudi Arabia. It was a wonderful place full of freedom and those wonderful western values.

 

*As certainly as you can take anything from Bruce, so there's the standard 90% chance he was just trolling as usual. Maybe not about being there though, just about seeing the little gated community he stayed in as indicative of the whole of KSA.

[Hormalakh]

 

 

Bruce, I have no doubt there were some very bad people among these people, but it seems to me they haven't exactly used a finetooth comb when they decided who to pick up. "Innocent until proven guilty" has in this case been turned completely on its head to "guilty until we torture you enough that we believe you might be innocent". You may be fine with that, but I can assure you that you won't like the sort of future that line of thinking leads to.

Okay so lets talk the possible future and what troubles you

 

The Netherlands was complicit with the CIA so in the last 7 years since this type of interrogation was used what laws have changed in your country that is a direct result of what the Netherlands did with the CIA ?

 

 

Here's something for you Bruce, if you weren't already aware:

 

There are numerous laws in the U.S. that make what the CIA did illegal on many levels. Violations of multiple parts of the U.S. Constitution itself, violations of various laws specifically outlawing torture, violations of various laws limiting what the CIA is allowed to do, violation of various treaties the U.S. has signed (though I myself don't think we should have signed most if not all of them), violations of statutes requiring the proper informing of Congress/President/etc, and more. Enough to put the folks behind this behind bars for a long long time if they weren't above the law and we actually prosecuted (something that isn't going to happen anytime soon but should). Heck, some of what they've done is very arguably treason, which can carry the death penalty here.

 

Even if one accepts for a moment (I do not, but for the of argument I will) that what the CIA did to the various people it detained was perfectly fine in a war time situation, the implications of allowing them to break all the laws they have and get away with it are huge. On an international scale, perhaps not so much (though I do think Rostere is generally right that things like this are used by some as an argument against republics/democracy/capitalism, because some in fact do), but internally the situation is ultimately dire for it's evidence the U.S. has fallen far from what it once was, has become something that most of the people who founded and ran this nation for the first 100+ years would have fought against, and ultimately all of this completely undermines law, order, justice, and the rights of the individual within the U.S..

 

Now, people who support what the CIA did of course generally do not see that dire on the horizon, or the evidence of it that's already manifested, or they don't care. These people are for the most part by and large pure evil, ignorant, or just plain stupid as they lack the ability to perceive cause and effect along with an appreciation of the basic sentiments of many of those around them. This is not a popular thing within the U.S. at all, and many of the people who have a problem with what the CIA has done and a number of other egregious assaults on what this nation was and is supposed to be (because this CIA torture thing is not the sole egregious assault, not even close sadly) are buying guns, ammo, and stockpiling resources, and that's no joke though I'm sure many here will brush off the various implications of that. It is not just your imagined tin foil hat wearing people, country bumkins, and doomsday prophets doing this. Many Average Joes, along with many of those in the military itself has been doing this for while now....

 

It's not going to be China, India, or anyone else that brings the day of reckoning home to the U.S as some this thread are thinking, it's going to be people within the U.S. itself.

 

How apt coming from someone living in New York. How are the riots?

[Hurlshort]

There are no riots in New York.  There have been protests that have been remarkably peaceful.  

[Valsuelm]

 

How apt coming from someone living in New York. How are the riots?

 

 

I'm unsure what you mean by that, but as Hurlshot says, there are no riots, just demonstrations.