Longknife Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) Another screenshot about the same issue: I just don't understand how these people can still believe gamergate is just small number of white misogynists gamers? There's over million tweets with #GamerGate and over 30000 new tweets daily. At least update your argument to "large number of white misogynist gamers". I would assume these are people who've never experienced typically innocent parties actually being guilty. For example, yes, I have met a racist black guy who could give racist white guys a run for their money. I have found a guy on youtube that was blatantly sexist (and in some ways racist towards his own race as he specifically applied tougher criticism to black women ONLY) but used the race card as a shield. I know damned well - being disabled myself - that some disabled people absolutely milk their disability for everything it's worth rather than using it appropriately. Hypothetical example: let's say a guy missing an arm uses a disabled parking space. That kind of attitude exists. But you often get taught about white privilege and to be mindful of it. While that DEFINITELY has truth to it, objectivity is boss. Being able to recognize a case of racism as racist or a case of race-baiting as race-baiting is key, and ultimately you need to review the facts and take a stance YOU yourself can be proud of, and you need to develop the skill of being able to be truthful with yourself. What I mean by that is yes, I would agree there are probably gamergate members who truly are misogynists but flock to the cause because it's an excuse for them, but when they rationalize it in their minds, they never realize it's merely an excuse. I simply don't focus on these guys because I believe them to be in the vast minority, because as it's been stated, all data suggests younger generations are less likely to be sexist, racist or discriminatory. I believe these are people who never learned to stop caring what other people think. These are people who can be sent in full retreat by the mere accusation of prejudice from someone they respect. Minor example: I myself might think to ask "why is it racist to refer to a black person's hair as nappy." I would say that not in the sense that omg I'm dying to say that word OR that I would disagree that that one radio host who said "nappy headed hoes" was racist or that despite being objectively innocent in meaning the word could've developed a negative or insensitive connotation, but in the sense that I find it quite odd that merely acknowledging someone's hair style based largely on their genetics has become racist. Some people would immediately call me racist just for questioning it. I'm sorry but no, I don't feel I'm racist for asking that question. On the flip side just in the interest of stressing objectivity being key, when I was in high school there was a petition to do away with a Black History Assembly presentation and corresponding school dance where the black students automatically got to organize everything instead of the elected school council. The petition argued that it seems to diminish equality and highlight our differences simply by giving them an event other students (asians, women, whites, etc) do not receive. Reasonable no? ....And I might've signed, except for this VERY strong and VERY disgusting feeling I got from the people supporting it. It seemed clear to me that was a case of the argument of equality and fairness being a convenient excuse for truly racist people. Some of them, it was merely a gut feeling. Others? You'd find that a classroom that lacked black students would discuss the dance in a rather tactless way, insisting there'd be nothing but crappy rap music and no "GOOD OLE FASHION COUNTRY" music played, while also referring to the reason we'd probably hear rap being due to the music being chosen by the "Nigers." (pronounced like the country) Yes, those are obvious, but with others it was a gut feeling. And a pretty good gut feeling too; if there's a CLASSROOM with some people saying racist things as others sit by and seem fine with it, then there's probably more racism than realized, no? In the end it felt like....yknow wtf do we care. It's a ****ing dance, and the black students truly enjoyed it, so why should we rain on their parade? ****, let's go the other way and petition to have an asian run dance or whatever just as an excuse for more fun and more assemblies we skip classes for. In the end it felt spiteful and just disgustingly racist, and luckily the petition amounted to nothing.So yes, point is objectivity goes both ways. But ultimately I feel like these are people who care too much what other people think, so the moment you call them misogynists, they'll do backflips and handstands for you on command to prove they're not. They defer to anything a woman says to prove otherwise, so if a woman is dismissing the countless minorities supporting gamergate as fake accounts or the like, AND IF YOU DISAGREE THEN YOU'RE A MISOGYNIST, then you better believe some guys fall in line. Don't believe people can be that weak and lack that much of a spine to value their own gut opinion? I wish I could agree, but I had the misfortune of meeting my German grandfather, who never had a spine of his own and PROBABLY ended up in the Nazi army that way. For him, he's devoid of responsibility so long as he's the "middle man" and the intent he follows is that of someone else. Sadly I'm not exaggerating when I say Person A could tell him Person B is a horrible person and he'd agree, but the moment Person B is alone with Person A and can try to tell him that's not how it is, he'll side with Person B....before Person A gets a hold of him again and switches his view back. But yeah, tl;dr these people probably have no spine and really worry a lot about what people think of them, so the idea of being accused of being racist or sexist scares them ****less, and just like that they end up as shields for anyone who figures this out. Want bonus points or a night of entertainment? Get a girl (one that's undeniably female and can verify she's not a fake account) to accuse a male journalist making such accusations of being sexist himself and how this is all a convenient excuse for him to try and control and dictate what she thinks, wants and likes. I'll bet money he'll go "ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE" as he struggles to figure out how to not be accused of sexism. Main deterrent to this is that, from what I've seen from feminists, they tend to have statements like "oh she's obviously so accustomed to misogyny she's become a part of their system" or whatever ready for such situations, so might be more likely he'd spew one of those lines instead of going "ERROR." Edited October 3, 2014 by Longknife 1 "The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him." Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?
Zoraptor Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 I'll bet money he'll go "ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE" as he struggles to figure out how to not be accused of sexism. Evidence suggests he'll actually go "A+++++ troll. Would read again. Bye". Which at least isn't more sexist than the preceding paternalism was. these people probably have no spine and really worry a lot about what people think of them Unconvinced of that, they appear to be perfectly capable of simply deciding that anyone who disagrees with them must be misguided, malign or misogynist and they certainly do stick to their guns, much as I sometimes wish they wouldn't. Many responses show no worry at all about what people think of them because they're already convinced they're right and those who disagree can safely be disregarded as being wrong. If you're comparing #GG people to ISIS you're not really worried about what people think of you, if you were you'd realise how ludicrous they'd find the comparison- even if it were intended as a joke. That's one of the reasons I compare the typical sjw types to a cult, they aren't even really concerned with what people/ gamers in general think of them but are far more concerned with adhering to their particular dogma and being accepted by their own group. Not a problem unique to sjws though, of course.
Longknife Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) I'll bet money he'll go "ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE" as he struggles to figure out how to not be accused of sexism. Evidence suggests he'll actually go "A+++++ troll. Would read again. Bye". Which at least isn't more sexist than the preceding paternalism was. these people probably have no spine and really worry a lot about what people think of them Unconvinced of that, they appear to be perfectly capable of simply deciding that anyone who disagrees with them must be misguided, malign or misogynist and they certainly do stick to their guns, much as I sometimes wish they wouldn't. Many responses show no worry at all about what people think of them because they're already convinced they're right and those who disagree can safely be disregarded as being wrong. If you're comparing #GG people to ISIS you're not really worried about what people think of you, if you were you'd realise how ludicrous they'd find the comparison- even if it were intended as a joke. That's one of the reasons I compare the typical sjw types to a cult, they aren't even really concerned with what people/ gamers in general think of them but are far more concerned with adhering to their particular dogma and being accepted by their own group. Not a problem unique to sjws though, of course. Let me rephrase that... These people probably have no spine and really worry a lot about what people think of them morally. AKA, they worry about being viewed as a terrible person. Being told "ur not funny" or "ur ugly" may not phase them, but being told "ur racist" or "ur evil" does. Edited October 3, 2014 by Longknife "The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him." Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?
Longknife Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 Yknow I have to confess, this whole thing has me looking at Indy games differently. Check this out: Looks cool, right? Right, but that's not what (eventually) caught my eye. While looking at the game, I came to find the storyline apparently involves a lesbian love story between the protagonist and one of the other characters. Likewise the lady who acted for the role ("acted") is apparently a lets player or something. This is no biggie except: A) If the game chose to have a lesbian romance and a female protagonist on its own accord, then it stands as evidence of the gaming industry not being sexist nor having something against female protagonists. Or B) If the game felt pressured into having a female protagonist with a lesbian love interest, then it highlights how groups like Silverstring media continue to hold power and influence over the Indy market. Just kinda hit me that regardless of the the reality of the situation, this whole ordeal has me "paranoid" in that I'm now seeing a female protagonist with a lesbian subplot - something I'd normally have no problem with - and now I'm "hostile" (in quotes cause I don't know the right wording of it) towards it in the sense I can't help but wonder why they chose that. "The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him." Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?
Blarghagh Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 Interesting point, Longknife. It reminds me of how some developers have come forward to say that rampant accusations of bigotry make them scared to add female (or otherwise diverse) characters. It's easier to get away with having no significant female characters than having a significant female character they don't like ("Lara Croft has a male mentor figure and therefore the game is sexist!"). I'm assuming Roundabout came to that plot by itself however since it spawned from Something Awful and not any "professional" indie development clique. 1
Fighter Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 Excellent tweet: https://twitter.com/Ash_Effect/status/517764342658256896 and a screenshot that shows the issue perfectly: Like I've been saying they are straight up hypocrites and show it off blatantly given the chance.
BruceVC Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 . It's easier to get away with having no significant female characters than having a significant female character they don't like ("Lara Croft has a male mentor figure and therefore the game is sexist!"). That to me just sounds like some kind of excuse and justification for developers not having to be concerned with things like gender representation in games "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Fighter Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 That to me just sounds like some kind of excuse and justification for developers not having to be concerned with things like gender representation in games Why should they be concerned with it? Seriously why can't people just make what they want and if someone wants to make a thing out of concern for representation let them do that. '12 Angry Men' did not need a X% of women among them. 2
Malcador Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 That to me just sounds like some kind of excuse and justification for developers not having to be concerned with things like gender representation in games Why should they be concerned with it? Seriously why can't people just make what they want and if someone wants to make a thing out of concern for representation let them do that. '12 Angry Men' did not need a X% of women among them. These people have problems playing protagonists that aren't themselves. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Blarghagh Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) . It's easier to get away with having no significant female characters than having a significant female character they don't like ("Lara Croft has a male mentor figure and therefore the game is sexist!"). That to me just sounds like some kind of excuse and justification for developers not having to be concerned with things like gender representation in games Not seeing the logic in this. If it was an excuse, why would they bring it up as something that needs to go away? You don't actively protest against your conveniences. EDIT: Regardless, even if it was logical, that is simply not the case, or at least not in all cases. One of the developers bringing it up was Daniel Vavra, who was actually lambasted for adding a seperate female character campaign as a Kickstarter stretch goal for his game Kingdom Come: Deliverance. The setting game is meant to be a fairly realistic showing of historic medieval life, and he put in extra effort to get resources make sure there was a seperate campaign for empowered female characters because the storyline and theme of the basic campaign did not allow for an empowered female character (regarding how women were treated in history and arranged marriages and the such) in a way logical to he setting. What happened when this developer tried, in a logical way, to make female representation in his game happen? He got lambasted as being sexist by games media and feminists because having an empowered female character should be available anyway and they should be able to do anything a male character does, regardless of resources, even in a setting or storyline where this makes no sense. Hence his claim that at this point is is easier to not have them then to put in the effort - because factually, it is. You get a handful of complaints if you have no female characters, but you try to do the right thing even with limited resources? You better hold on to something because there will be a storm coming. Edited October 3, 2014 by TrueNeutral 1
Fighter Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 The best female characters will be done by people who want to do them for no other reason than the creator liking it that way. Not because someone needs to lecture you with a political message. 11
Keyrock Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) . It's easier to get away with having no significant female characters than having a significant female character they don't like ("Lara Croft has a male mentor figure and therefore the game is sexist!"). That to me just sounds like some kind of excuse and justification for developers not having to be concerned with things like gender representation in games As far as I'm concerned developers shouldn't have to be concerned about gender (or sexual orientation for that matter) representation in video games unless the video game specifically tackles that issue. Unless the game specifically sets out to provide social commentary, the developer shouldn't have to go through a checklist and check off boxes to make sure everyone is represented in a good light and that they heaven forbid may have included something that could possibly be interpreted as insulting. Sometimes, you just want to make a game about robot ninjas kidnapping the president's daughter and don't want to worry about whether this reflects poorly on the female gender. Edited October 3, 2014 by Keyrock 5 RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks
Blarghagh Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) I can't even find a source because the orthodoxists really ripped into Kingdom Come: Deliverance afterwards, also lambasting it because the medieval setting was too white. Surprise surprise, the first google searches that come up if I google Kingdom Come: Deliverance with the word "sexist" or "racist" added on? Kotaku and Gamasutra. Either way, it conforms to my experiences as a game developer. Anyway, it's always been my opinion that men cannot be expected to flawlessly represent the female perspective. With more women going into game development every year (though I'm sure it will be less now with the irresponsible false narrative created by these game journalists that will surely scare some of them off) this problem will solve itself. Edited October 3, 2014 by TrueNeutral
JadedWolf Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 I can't even find a source because the orthodoxists really ripped into Kingdom Come: Deliverance afterwards, also lambasting it because the medieval setting was too white. Surprise surprise, the first google searches that come up if I google Kingdom Come: Deliverance with the word "sexist" or "racist" added on? Kotaku and Gamasutra. Either way, it conforms to my experiences as a game developer. Anyway, it's always been my opinion that men cannot be expected to flawlessly represent the female perspective. With more women going into game development every year (though I'm sure it will be less now with the irresponsible false narrative created by these game journalists that will surely scare some of them off) this problem will solve itself. I think the whole idea that someone might represent a gender's perspective is crazy, period. I'm a man, but I would never claim I could create something that accurately represented the male perspective. 3 Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Blarghagh Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 That's a great point. Thanks for correcting my perspective. I've got something to think about. Did I mention I've got a huge flu and I'm hopped up on meds?
Keyrock Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) I'm curious whether SJWs are partially responsible for the zombie plague in video games. I wonder if some developers make the conscious decision to use zombies as the enemies you kill for worry of getting torn apart by the SJW horde when using human targets because the particular humans they chose to use as targets somehow are considered as social commentary. Edited October 3, 2014 by Keyrock RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks
kirottu Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 7 This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Keyrock Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 I fully approve of completely random adorable cat drawings, be they integrated into line graphs or otherwise. 3 RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks
Fighter Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) I'm curious whether SJWs are partially responsible for the zombie plague in video games. I wonder if some developers make the conscious decision to use zombies as the enemies you kill for worry of getting torn apart by the SJW horde when using human targets because the particular humans they chose to use as targets somehow are considered as social commentary. Did not help Resident Evil 5. Also I think that's kind of been a thing for a while not just in games but in movies too. Zombies are the perfect dehumanized, yet in human form, fodder you can do with as you wish. Edited October 3, 2014 by Fighter 1
HoonDing Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 I'm suddenly reminded of that fat neckbeard who called Bound by Flame misogynist The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Blarghagh Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 I find myself shaking my head very often that Maddox, of all people, is the most sane person in this entire goddamn discussion and he's been so for over a year. (Language) 5
Monte Carlo Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 (edited) Someone will write a PhD about why he's wrong, then make an awful text adventure game about menstruation. They will get lots of Twitter fans and make their name slamming men who don't understand how to make text adventures about menstruation, on account of their misogynist lack of a womb and ovaries. And it will probably be a man. Edited October 3, 2014 by Monte Carlo 1
Meshugger Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 The conspiracy continues... 2 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Bryy Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 That to me just sounds like some kind of excuse and justification for developers not having to be concerned with things like gender representation in games Why should they be concerned with it? Seriously why can't people just make what they want and if someone wants to make a thing out of concern for representation let them do that. '12 Angry Men' did not need a X% of women among them. 1) They should be concerned with it if it is just keeping women out because "men are easier". 2) That's the same argument as "why not just make Wonder Woman a man?".
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