Combat XP Poll - Let's See What We Think Now

[Helm]

 

You won't take a reputation or alignment hit for killing the extremely hostile spiders and beetles (Lions too IIRC) in PoE either... But oh well, if you say so.

 

Hopefully you don't participate in more "degenerate behavior" and go on a killing spree to collect beetle bits (for crafting) in PoE.

Still not clear what point you're trying to make as I'm not going out of my way to kill lions, beetles, or spiders. Would you care to make it more explicit rather than trying to be clever with your sarcasm?

 

I'm not being sarcastic. 

 

You wrote that you need a discentive to prevent yourself from partaking in "degenerate gameplay" like going on murder sprees for every last drop of XP and items.

 

Just wanted to say that you won't take a reputation or alignment hit for killing the extremely hostile spiders, beetles or lions in PoE, so there is no discentive to prevent you from relentlessy killing all of those critters for their bits... other than the fact that it is pointless, but as you wrote, that didn't stop you from killing everything in BG either.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Helm

[Leferd]

 

 

You won't take a reputation or alignment hit for killing the extremely hostile spiders and beetles (Lions too IIRC) in PoE either... But oh well, if you say so.

 

Hopefully you don't participate in more "degenerate behavior" and go on a killing spree to collect beetle bits (for crafting) in PoE.

 

Still not clear what point you're trying to make as I'm not going out of my way to kill lions, beetles, or spiders. Would you care to make it more explicit rather than trying to be clever with your sarcasm?

I'm not being sarcastic. 

 

You wrote that you need a discentive to prevent yourself from partaking in "degenerate gameplay" like going on murder sprees for every last drop of XP and items.

 

Just wanted to say that you won't take a reputation or alignment hit for killing the extremely hostile spiders, beetles or lions in PoE, so there is no discentive to prevent you from relentlessy killing all of those critters for their bits... other than the fact that it is pointless, but as you wrote, that didn't stop you from killing everything in BG either.

  

 

Ok. That's a bit clearer. I was hoping you weren't trying to make a play on the Socratic method gone bad.

 

For PoE the disincentive for me to not specifically go random critter hunting is that I won't be rewarded with XP for it.

 

"Replace dragon for an xvart. The dragon example is preposterous."

 

How so?

 

"we should get XP for retrieving Hull's sword."

 

But, not the dragon (or pick a dangerous monster). Retrieving Hull's sword is not some huge challenge to the player/character skill, require zero thoguht or ability, doesn't add anything story wise either. It doesn't even advance anything. But, it's worth xp but the dragon isn't? COME ON.

As terrible as they are, FedEx scenarios are still quests. I should be rewarded for completing quests/missions/objectives.

 

To be honest, it would be poor level design if I face a random dangerous creature in the wild that is not associated with a quest. That's the fault of the designer.

 

You can make the argument that no one is for forcing you to kill, but it's poor design rewarding players to go grinding for XP (without consequence) by going on a random mass killing spree. If there was a bounty system at play for fur/scales/hides or craftable bits, then atleast there is in-game justification to do so, and that's fine.

 

,

[Osvir]

Too soon to poll on this with some 4-5 quests available and a limited amount of encounters.

When the Quest System works (without losing quests) this poll become much more relevant.

EDIT: I can't get a feeling for the No Combat XP when I can't turn in Quests and gain experience after all...

The current Beta build is more or less "Zero Experience Mode". So... how can anyone have an opinion on a system that technically/functionally does not work yet because of bugs?

Edited August 21, 2014 by Osvir

[Namutree]

Too soon to poll on this with some 4-5 quests available and a limited amount of encounters.

 

When the Quest System works (without losing quests) this poll become much more relevant.

 

EDIT: I can't get a feeling for the No Combat XP when I can't turn in Quests and gain experience after all...

 

The current Beta build is more or less "Zero Experience Mode". So... how can anyone have an opinion on a system that technically/functionally does not work yet because of bugs?

Because some of us went exploring without a specific purpose and didn't get any xp at all, and even when the bugs are fixed they still would get nothing. We don't want to be railroaded into doing quests. After all; we were pitched, "The epic exploring of BG". If we don't either get kill xp or objective xp (like finding a dungeon) then the exploration sure won't be like BG.

 

Exploration needs to have some way of giving us xp. Doesn't really matter whether it's just for discovering a new dungeon or killing a special monster (Like the giant spider in the spider cave). If quests are the only way of getting xp; poe is going to be a very boring game. Especially to replay.  

[Volourn]

"To be honest, it would be poor level design if I face a random dangerous creature in the wild that is not associated with a quest. That's the fault of the designer."

 

\So, you believe random creatures should be just harmless fluff like  a billion xfarts? Come on. I believe all encounters - random or otherwise - can be deep, challenging, and useful as test, challenges, surprises, and maybe even move the story forward.

 

Have you not played pnp? Some of the absolute best content/combat can be random encounters if DONE RIGHT.

[Leferd]

"To be honest, it would be poor level design if I face a random dangerous creature in the wild that is not associated with a quest. That's the fault of the designer."

 

\So, you believe random creatures should be just harmless fluff like  a billion xfarts? Come on. I believe all encounters - random or otherwise - can be deep, challenging, and useful as test, challenges, surprises, and maybe even move the story forward.

 

Have you not played pnp? Some of the absolute best content/combat can be random encounters if DONE RIGHT.

Random encounters and exploration is a good thing and they should be rewarded. Never argued against it. The player should be rewarded for uncovering something new or finding a hidden path that leads to some type of discovery. Or yes, for impaling the wild boar. But as a specific objective or achievement. Bring the carcass back to the innkeeper and get XP, silver, and a full belly.

 

This debate has been going on ad nauseum for years and I'm not going to rehash the same (but what about stealth and diplomacy etc) points and counterpoints all over again.

 

...but I will say this: I do hope Obsidian creates random encounters and exploration DONE RIGHT.

[Smoker]

I don't like it. Combat should improve something, kind of immersion breaking.

[GilliusThunderhead]

If you don't get XP from combat then players will try to avoid combat.I don't think this is a positive outcome.

[Mayama]

If you don't get XP from combat then players will try to avoid combat.I don't think this is a positive outcome.

 

I honestly never killed anything in the BG games for XP, it actually felt anoying that I had to kill everything if I dont want to fall behind in XP. The only reason why I wanted to kill stuff in those games was lLoot or I couldnt progress without killing them. XP was never the reason to do it.

[Zansatsu]

Those of you who like the current system rejoice, it isn't changing. let's just hope they work the kinks out of it. Those of you in favor of another system settle in, it isn't changing. Let's just hope they work the kinks out of it.

[Caladian]

I absolutely love no combat xp!!!!  I thought it was strange at first but now that I know about it, I am very happy for it!  I don't have this stupid compulsion to kill everything on the map to maximize my xp!!! yay!!!!

 

On the loot thing, so far, I have gotten more good loot than anything that can be found in the store.  Give me a break, this is great.  And money?  After doing the first 4 quests I am still banking on 30k cp.  Nothing worthwhile to spend it on.

[Silent Winter]

"we should get XP for retrieving Hull's sword."

 

But, not the dragon (or pick a dangerous monster). Retrieving Hull's sword is not some huge challenge to the player/character skill, require zero thoguht or ability, doesn't add anything story wise either. It doesn't even advance anything. But, it's worth xp but the dragon isn't? COME ON.

to be fair, 'retrieve Hull's sword' is a training level mission designed to teach the player 'do things for people and you get xp' - I'm trying to think of a later Fed-ex example that didn't at least require exploration to find if not combat.  Maybe the 'get me a corpse' quest?  But I think you ran into crawlers there.

 

Dragon (or other dangerous beast) I'd call a mini-boss if not a boss - so should get some xp for that.  Still not convinced it's needed for every beetle but I do hope Obs take a good look at the xp system and add / rearrange it for truly objective based (including (mini-)boss enemies and exploration and not solely 'we made a quest for that'

[Namutree]

Those of you who like the current system rejoice, it isn't changing. let's just hope they work the kinks out of it. Those of you in favor of another system settle in, it isn't changing. Let's just hope they work the kinks out of it.

There's no settling in. It's a terrible system that forces quest railroading. No fun exploration to be had, we'll too busy doing quest to have any fun. Strange how Obsidian mentioned exploration so much during development; only to throw it away by needlessly giving quests a monopoly on xp. 

 

What kinks are there to work out anyway? The quests are bugged, but that'll be fixed. The fact it ruins the game will not. As I've said before; we don't need kill xp, but we need to be able to get xp from general adventuring and not just quests. Simply doing something special like finding some hidden ruins, but right now we have to do errands for the villagers or else we can't get xp. 

 

Kill a dragon? No villager told you to do it so it doesn't count; no xp for you. Next time, try asking npcs to tell you what to do. Found and explored secret ruins? Meaningless! If it isn't a quest you get no xp at all!

 

While kill xp is a lost cause; objective xp may not be. Osidian; fix this.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Namutree

[Kharador]

Really annoys me much how people might vote the first option.

I think there is no reason to vote it. This option shorts the experience of freedom of the player and make the game as linear as possible...

Can anyone give me an example of any epic cRPG game that has this system??

Edited August 21, 2014 by Kharador

[Silent Winter]

Really annoys me much how people might vote the first option.

I think there is no reason to vote it. This option shorts the experience of freedom of the player and make the game as linear as possible...

Can anyone give me an example of any epic cRPG game that has this system??

I think the votes are more against a change to kill-xp than a vote to keep it exactly as is -

- the middle votes are all 'change it' and the last one is 'give me kill-xp' basically - either way, votes against the system outweigh votes for, it's just that the single vote looks like the biggest vote is 'for'

compare the poll in the other thread on xp-mechanics and there's a clear vote against 'quest-xp only' but preferring 'objective-xp' which would still allow freedom of play/route/whatever

[Namutree]

Objective xp is a great middle ground that prevents degenerate grinding while also not tying 100% of the xp to quests. 

[Answermancer]

 

Those of you who like the current system rejoice, it isn't changing. let's just hope they work the kinks out of it. Those of you in favor of another system settle in, it isn't changing. Let's just hope they work the kinks out of it.

There's no settling in. It's a terrible system that forces quest railroading. No fun exploration to be had, we'll too busy doing quest to have any fun. Strange how Obsidian mentioned exploration so much during development; only to throw it away by needlessly giving quests a monopoly on xp. 

 

What kinks are there to work out anyway? The quests are bugged, but that'll be fixed. The fact it ruins the game will not. As I've said before; we don't need kill xp, but we need to be able to get xp from general adventuring and not just quests. Simply doing something special like finding some hidden ruins, but right now we have to do errands for the villagers or else we can't get xp. 

 

Kill a dragon? No villager told you to do it so it doesn't count; no xp for you. Next time, try asking npcs to tell you what to do. Found and explored secret ruins? Meaningless! If it isn't a quest you get no xp at all!

 

While kill xp is a lost cause; objective xp may not be. Osidian; fix this.

 

 

While I think you're being hyperbolic, I do not like this system as much as I had hoped prior to the beta.

 

I don't care about getting XP from every kill/encounter but I do feel like current XP gains are too rare and the pacing feels unsatisfying as a result. I think they could easily (well, it'd be a lot of work, but the solution itself is simple) fix this within the current system, which I would consider working the kinks out, although it may be too much work to be realistic.

 

First of all they would have to divide up the XP gain for each objective of a quest (so if currently a quest gives 1000XP it would instead give 100XP at every "step" you get through in the journal). Secondly, to help out people who are doing a lot of exploring but not advancing quests, add XP for "milestones" like uncovering a new dungeon in a wilderness location, or getting to specific rooms deep into said dungeon, or finishing up said dungeon even if you never got a quest for it.

 

This would probably take a sizeable amount of work but could be balanced out to give the same XP overall and not throw off the curve of the game.

 

So for instance:

You get a quest from a villager to find his daughter who is missing. You investigate and get 100 XP when you discover she was taken by cultists in a cave outside town. You find the cave and get 100 XP. You clear out the cave and find a ladder deeper down, get 100 XP. You clear the second level and get 100XP, finding the daughter and freeing her. You return to the villager and get 100 XP.

 

Now someone who never got the quest would still get 300 XP for finding and clearing out the cave, and then if they ever find the villager and talk to him they get the remaining 200XP as a lump sum right away assuming they freed the daughter already.

 

 

[Sarex]

The biggest question now, as I already said in the original thread, is what will take more time, figuring out how to do objective xp right or going back to the tried and tested system of the IE games.

[Osvir]

 

Those of you who like the current system rejoice, it isn't changing. let's just hope they work the kinks out of it. Those of you in favor of another system settle in, it isn't changing. Let's just hope they work the kinks out of it.

There's no settling in. It's a terrible system that forces quest railroading. No fun exploration to be had, we'll too busy doing quest to have any fun. Strange how Obsidian mentioned exploration so much during development; only to throw it away by needlessly giving quests a monopoly on xp. 

 

What kinks are there to work out anyway? The quests are bugged, but that'll be fixed. The fact it ruins the game will not. As I've said before; we don't need kill xp, but we need to be able to get xp from general adventuring and not just quests. Simply doing something special like finding some hidden ruins, but right now we have to do errands for the villagers or else we can't get xp. 

 

Kill a dragon? No villager told you to do it so it doesn't count; no xp for you. Next time, try asking npcs to tell you what to do. Found and explored secret ruins? Meaningless! If it isn't a quest you get no xp at all!

 

While kill xp is a lost cause; objective xp may not be. Osidian; fix this.

It's not feature complete. Work in progress. Beta. Buggy. It's a good vision though and will be more meaningful when working as intended/expected. IIRC, Obsidian did mention that some enemies would give kill xp and I think some exploration exp will be given at some points too.

 

The point is, the system isn't functionally implemented yet. I'd love to hear your opinion when it is

[Namutree]

 

It's not feature complete. Work in progress. Beta. Buggy. It's a good vision though and will be more meaningful when working as intended/expected. IIRC, Obsidian did mention that some enemies would give kill xp and I think some exploration exp will be given at some points too.

 

The point is, the system isn't functionally implemented yet. I'd love to hear your opinion when it is

 

If they do that then all will be well. I never heard them say that so I didn't know. I've been complaining over nothing it seems.

 

I feel like quite a fool.

[Tartantyco]

 

 

What does NOT make sense from a roleplaying perspective is getting xp from a quest where you used stealth to complete the objectives, then putting points into your axe skill.

 

 

And how, exactly, does stabbing beetles make you better at lockpicking?

 

You're just regurgitating arguments that have been shot down in every other thread on this same subject. At least think through your own reasoning before posting stuff, dude.

 

 

This is rich. You're using an argument that applies to ALL XP systems to denigrate kill xp. That's idiotic because this game uses an XP system, so you're basically saying this game makes no sense according to you.

 

 

 

 

 

What does NOT make sense from a roleplaying perspective is getting xp from a quest where you used stealth to complete the objectives, then putting points into your axe skill.

 

 

And how, exactly, does stabbing beetles make you better at lockpicking?

 

You're just regurgitating arguments that have been shot down in every other thread on this same subject. At least think through your own reasoning before posting stuff, dude.

 

How does turning in a quest and receiving objective XP make you better at lockpicking?

 

I don't know how many times people have told you that XP is simply an abstraction, yet you repeatedly keep on bringing up the same nonsensical argument. You seem to have problems understanding this.

 

 

Great job missing the point, guys. I'm not arguing that the system should make realistic logical sense. You guys are. Helm, how slow can you get?

[Bloody Hypocrite]

It's hard to gauge the current system because in every play-through I've done, I've never leveled up. I've only even received any XP two/three times in three different play-throughs. I'm not against the concept of objective-based XP,  but it would have to be greatly expanded from the current quest-based system. I do think that the XP should be broken up so that you feel like you are actually accomplishing something.
When they first brought up the XP system, I definitely imagined something far more complex than what we are seeing thus far. For example, whether you kill/sneak/talk past any significant encounter (including tough groups of enemies in the wilderness)  you would get some amount of XP. I don't mind not getting XP for individual mobs killed, but by overcoming, by any method, an obvious choke-point  such as the beetles I feel that it should merit XP. Finding locations through exploration should reward XP. Dealing with mini-bosses should grant XP.
Honestly, I feel that a true objective-based XP system is far harder to properly implement in a crpg than the old IE XP systems. Even if it were actually working, I don't think I would like the lump-sum quest system that's currently in place.

[Kharador]

Really annoys me much how people might vote the first option.

I think there is no reason to vote it. This option shorts the experience of freedom of the player and make the game as linear as possible...

Can anyone give me an example of any epic cRPG game that has this system??

 

Ok I confused the thread. I want to meant the last one option...

[Shdy314]

There's no settling in. It's a terrible system that forces quest railroading. No fun exploration to be had, we'll too busy doing quest to have any fun. 

 

I know you aren't the first to use this term but I just have to mention this has to be my favorite new bs term. I am glad business doesn't have a monopoly on this junk. As if I wasn't incentivized in other RPGs to do every available quest. No I don't want massive XP and kewl loot game. Silence all that stupid dialogue and attempts to tell me a story. I grind for my power! Ah yeah feel all that freedom from the tyranny of quests! The worst thing to ever be introduced to an RPG. No more bowing and scraping to stupid NPCs. Now I murder them for their XP like a truly free psychopath.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Killyox]

 

I fully support the devs making a "Trial of Grinding" mode for all those whose heads explode without kill exp.

 

The only serious game balance issue I have is making sure that even players that like to kill everything on the map will still get a more or less equal amount of quest exp somehow, even if a quest giver is killed.

 

The game as it currently stands is truly a "Trial of Grinding" because you still have to wade through tons of enemies, but now you're not rewarded for it.

 

Loot is your reward I guess.