The Official Romance Thread

[Mayama]

The existence of this thread amuses me.  It was basically created so that the Devs never have to read it.  It also keeps all the new romance threads from clogging up the forum.  All the while, those wanting romance feel like they are getting their voice out.  Genius really.

 

Well there was a Golden Age of CRPG's and arguably the best game of that time was BG2.  I guess I really don't expect much from the new generation of CRPG's, DOS, PoE, etc.  They've updated the game-play and graphics, but are not putting much effort into the story and little depth of characters.  You are never going to feel like you did when Aerie was resolved to live without wings because of you.  You will never have that sick feeling in your stomach when Jaheira is kidnapped away.  You never have that emotional roller coaster ride of Viconia dealing with her feelings.  Because this generation of Devs just don't want to put the effort into it.

 

Well, whatever.  Perhaps if this generation of CRPG's takes off more effort will be put into them.  We'll see.

 

 

Aeira is a teenager that wants a father figure and trys to bait you into a relationship out of guilt.

Jaheira needs only some days of grief bevor she decides to jump into your pants.

Vicona is a stupid teenage bitch that confuses deep character with being an ****.

 

Yeah quality adult writing right their.

 

Actually aeira was the best one of those three because it baits you into doing nasty things. She was quite anoying but at the same time made you feel guilty for beeing anoyed. Also she looks really alien do you really want to jump into her trousers.

 

Edit:

 

Sorry but thats what commes to my mind when I think about aeira. (not my idea found the pic on the web)

Edited August 26, 2014 by Mayama

[Amentep]

 

 

I don't understand when people say it's a lie to say it will be like Baldur's Gate if it doesn't have romances. Baldur's Gate 1 had no romances. None. Zero. In fact, the only Infinity Engine game that really had romances was Baldur's Gate 2, and it was a small part of an enormous game. That means that if you say it's inspired by Infinity Engine games, romance is one of the tiniest fractions of it.

 

As to romances being "discarded", they decided not to add romances because they did not have the resources. Not enough time, not enough writers budgeted. A good romance takes time because romances are difficult and Obsidian decided that if they couldn't do it right, they wouldn't do it. Nobody lied about anything, Obsidian has been upfront about this since the kickstarter. It's quite possible that a sequel with a bigger budget will have them.

 

I have to correct you on something, the official announcement that there wont be Romance came months after the game was funded. Up to then we were still debating if Romance would be in. Most promancers, like me, assumed they would be in the game on some level

 

Is that so? I was under the impression they would not be there from the start. I wonder where I got that, then. Thanks for the correction.

 

 

It wasn't explicitly stated, but several members of the writing team weren't fond of romances as they have been done in previous games so I think most people who were aware of the developers may have felt - as I did - that romance would be a longshot.

[Velkaarn]

Serves me right for not reading all that stuff through, but I'm dissappointed to read there are no romance options. How modable PoE will be I wonder? I like to have more options in RPGs in general than just picking with which weapon (read: sword) to kill the next encounter with and wouldn't actually mind a game which you might be able to finish without actually fighting anyone. But I digress from the topic here.

[Leferd]

Serves me right for not reading all that stuff through, but I'm dissappointed to read there are no romance options. How modable PoE will be I wonder? I like to have more options in RPGs in general than just picking with which weapon (read: sword) to kill the next encounter with and wouldn't actually mind a game which you might be able to finish without actually fighting anyone. But I digress from the topic here.

PoE promises to have plenty of C&C and roleplaying options outside of combat. Companions won't be romanceable but they will be deep.

[Blarghagh]

To answer your question about how moddable PoE is: It's nature of being a Unity based game means it will probably be fairly easy to mod. Sawyer has explained that making new backgrounds might be pretty difficult but new companions, dialogues, quests, etc. would be fairly simple to implement. I would personally not be surprised if the first rudimentary romance mods will pop up within two months of release.

[Lephys]

For what it's worth, in the recently released Guardians of The Galaxy film... (MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD)

 

... There's clearly an emotional connection in the process of forming between Quill and Gamora, but they don't even so much as kiss throughout the entire film. That's pretty rare for a Hollywood film today.

 

I realize a film and a game don't function exactly the same way (one is perfectly linear and static, and the other is not), but, that's just an example I wanted to point out towards how romance can exist without having to necessarily conclude any time soon, or even "on stage" at all, for that matter.

 

Or, to put it another way, a developer's options are broader than "Either no romance is in the game, or there's romance in the game and binary dialogue options that lead to sex and marriage are it."

[ManifestedISO]

Is there a Swiss-like state of neutrality for middle-of-the-road-mancers. Extremism is really putting the lame in lamentations. 

[redneckdevil]

Ok, someone explain this to me:

 

 

Why the **** would you be head-over-heels insistent romance needs to be involved in the game? I'm not good at being anything but blunt, so I'll just say I find the concept absolutely cringeworthy. It's you - the player and a human being - attempting to romance a string of coding and AI. I could agree if someone made an argument that trying to romance someone is a form of quest and challenge that adds to the gameplay, yeah. I recall playing Harvest Moon 64 when I was a kid and that was like the big appeal of the game: working hard to try and woo and marry one of 5 girls. But that was a setting where it worked. That was a peaceful farm life where your only possible concerns could ever be doing your job, putting food on the table and establishing a family if you so choose.

I can also understand that watching a romance unfold can be interesting. It's hard to name a TV show that doesn't have sexual tension between two characters as one of the sub-plots. I'm not saying romance is just dull or bland in general.

 

But this? You're an adventurer. You're traveling and engaging in combat nonstop, and you want a major focus of the game to be romance? Where your character works towards trying to sleep with some party member, because obviously that's the most important thing in life? GTFO.

 

 

The problem with romance is that even if done correctly, it's only viable for a good playthrough. Subsequent playthroughs are going to lack the "thrill of the chase" with you trying to figure out how to woo a certain character and you'll just know. It's just a string of AI, it'll always act the same and I fail to see how a romantic story holds any more value, significance or purpose than a story involving coming to terms with who one is, a personal struggle, or redemption (just a couple classic examples).

 

How would trying to woo someone hold more intellectual value than any of those? IT DOESN'T. At it's best, romance is on par with the other storylines in a game. Not better, not worse, just a different flavor. And that's at BEST.

 

 

At worst? At worst it's the fans trying to force the developers to including something that has to be BEYOND awkward for the developers, because they're essentially writing a cheesy porno (just without the sex) while trying to think up a character and a relationship dynamic to the target demographic. Pro tip: the target demographic is typically teenage boys and teenage boys would stick their **** in keyholes ffs if they would fit. There's nothing intellectually stimulating or worthwhile about a romance catered to people who just figured out that junk on their crotch can do stuff and feel good doing it.

 

At WORST, you end up with blatantly, cringeworthy and obvious attempts to pander to and cater to that demographic, while ultimately failing HORRENDOUSLY because it's ****ing awkward for the developer:

 

 

In short? Romance is a huge risky wildcard for -ANY- developer. It could function fine, or it could crash and burn and be a train wreck you can't look away from, dropping everyone's IQ scores and the game rating along with it.

 

 

 

"But Longknife! I can't POSSIBLY have a meaningful emotional reaction to anything that doesn't involve romantic feelings!! Romance is clearly the only meaningful emotion in life!"

 

 

Bull****:

 

 

 

 

There's tons of ways to involve emotion-evoking stories and plotlines that are x1000 times more meaningful for you as a person (aka they contain a lesson or thought you can carry with you and learn from) without resorting to the cop-out card that is romance. Romance, imo, seems like the cheapest form of involving emotionally-charged storylines, because it's essentially a way to flash cleavage at the player and suddenly peak his interest, no matter how bare-bones the storyline of the romantic relationship is.

 

 

And ffs there's even ways to provide a bit of sexual tension or flirting without it needing to be full-on romance. Go play New Vegas, go travel with Cass. The Courier and Cass definitely have "a thing" going on at times, but it's not so in-your-face that anyone who has no interest in romance feels awkward. I thought that implementation was perfection, and lo and behold I discovered the original plan was to make it possible to marry Cass via a drunken shotgun wedding, but that idea was scrapped and the remnants are nothing beyond overt flirting.

 

 

 

 

All in all, as I said I'm blunt and I just can't help but feel like the romance is being absolutely ridiculous, acting as if romance were the only reason to ever get involved in any game ever. Pro-tip: there are REAL women out there who can offer REAL, meaningful relationships, and yes there can be emotionally-charged storylines that aren't driven by sex. You want romance? Go play a waifu simulator; you can then play PoE when you actually want to...yknow, play a real game. As for this decision to skip that feature? Seems like the most reasonable decision in the world, and I've yet to hear a compelling argument for why the game will suffer without it.

BRA****ingO!

Ok im not against romance being in games but will admit that im happy its not going to be in this game. I want to roleplay and kill stuff and explore and dive into the culture and see what kind of stuff i can do and the game will react to. If romance was in the game wouldnt change my feelings on this game nor what i want kr expect to do in it.

 

My thing is that makes me scratch my head and hear the principle in billy madison is when people claim that u cant have meaningful stories or relationships without romance. Or that BG2 wasnt known for its world or things to kill and see and story to unfold but that it is famously remembered and seen as a Romance game...wut?

No offence, hell even BruceVC will admit that a game can be good and well done and fun without romance, its people who state that ONLY romance being in a game and that certain games are ONLY remembered for having a great story because of romance, im not sorry to say but that load of garbage doesnt help ur cause, its hurts it. Hell a good majority of people will claim they are ok with romances IF done well but for the life of many, if it wasnt ingrained and forced on u but done well as part of the main plot, most only remember the numbers game (say only this and she will love me, if i say this she will dislike me, etc). Hell ill be honest, until the romance stuff started up on here on the boards for PoE, i didnt even realize BG2 had romances because i never went that route and had a blast.

[Stun]

At WORST, you end up with blatantly, cringeworthy and obvious attempts to pander to and cater to that demographic, while ultimately failing HORRENDOUSLY because it's ****ing awkward for the developer: 

Ok, lets take what we saw in this video one point at a time.

 

1) You Bring your love interest a mammoth tusk.

2) Your Love interest is so happy to have a mammoth tusk, that she decides to marry you.

3) You rush to the Temple of Mara to have your wedding.

4) Hired mercenaries crash your wedding. A wild death-filled melee ensues. blood drenched bodies litter the floor.

5) the wedding is rescheduled and all is well.

 

I don't see the problem..? This is several magnitudes better and more realistic than anything Bioware has ever given us.

 

 

 

But on a serious note, one of the great things about Skyrim that never gets the credit it deserves is the way random events can come together to create their own story -sometimes a hilarious and memorable one. This video illustrates a wonderful example of that. Also, Marriage in Skyrim actually *works*, unlike Romances, because it serves a gameplay purpose.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

@Stun that is EXACTLY how I met my wife.

[Blarghagh]

For what it's worth, in the recently released Guardians of The Galaxy film... (MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD)

 

... There's clearly an emotional connection in the process of forming between Quill and Gamora, but they don't even so much as kiss throughout the entire film. That's pretty rare for a Hollywood film today.

 

I noticed that too, especially because I had noticed the same thing about Pacific Rim.

[NWN_babaYaga]

romances are not a controversial topic just because someone says so... There are just a few games where they are part of and serve a purpose (minimal). But that these games are all RPG´s (or the SIMS) doesnt mean every RPG has to have them. Because to romance someone in a game is not realy gaming, it´s simulating a relationship when they are so maxed out .. that everything else around the player is just a backdrop. That should not happen in any RPG.

[Ulquiorra]

Ok, someone explain this to me:

 

 

Why the **** would you be head-over-heels insistent romance needs to be involved in the game? I'm not good at being anything but blunt, so I'll just say I find the concept absolutely cringeworthy. It's you - the player and a human being - attempting to romance a string of coding and AI. I could agree if someone made an argument that trying to romance someone is a form of quest and challenge that adds to the gameplay, yeah.

 

 

You see there are two types of players:

 

1. That are playing beacous, gameplay, mechanics, leveling, items, graphics, armor, etc.

 

2. Ther are playing becouse, plot, athosphere, roleplayability, dialogs, and some sort of "Fantasy".

 

Fistr type of players, are playing becouse they whant to "Grinding" looting bodies, getiing beter items, leveling becoming stronger and are playing becouse "becoming stronger" is in some way, giving them good positive emotions from the game.

 

Secound type of players, they play becouse they what goos storyline, athmosphere, dialogs and roleplay their character in fantasy wold, becouse this gives them good and positive emotions.

 

This type of logic "You are romancing pixels, and faping to them" is the same as "You are getting off becouse you find longsword +2 insted of you old +1" and we both can effend ech other if we coud, but personaly i whoud be much more content knowing that im getting off (if discussion is brought dow to thiss level) to pixels that at least sound and look like a women, then getting of to pixelized swords, shelds or feel extasy that my char slayed the dragon. xD

 

In general, i play role plaing games, becouse i want to roleplay some char, for example elfish mage Ell'rith Silverwood or Dwarven barberian Darok Steelhand etc, i like to play i little diffrent "reality", fantasy ... and roleplaying fantasy is for that that you cound role play a character in a fantasy world and why my viosion and my rpg expierience must be limitted becouse someone don't like killing, romancing, drinking Ale, or sneak.

 

The talk about "why we must add romances if they are waste of recorces", is on the same lavel as "why wy must putt sneak mechanics for rogues if only 10% people play them, this is a wast of resorces for those 20% that whoud like to play fighters, pladins, barberians if we coud insted make better armors for them xD.

 

Realy aguing about "Adding" or Not adding" romance is on the same level as "I like red colour and i dont's what to see green, becouse most of the green thing are ugly" to  "Hey give as a green also becouse we like green if it's done well". The same type of logic, as "Hey don't make alkohols in game, don't add any convercations involving alkohol becouse im not drinking" to "Hey give us an option to dring Ale with our companions, but done well" xD

 

I've already sad, fact that most games today are adding awkword daiting sim elements like "you can bang anyone", doesnt mean that changed and taken from difrent angle doesnt have te future, there are many types of storyilines in games, films, books that were done well, why becouse they have a meaning to plot, and was not "addinctional banging chance" but plot related decision.

 

If Rob did not had romance with some chick outside a marrige, there whoud be no Jon Snow, if Cercei did't have romance with hes brother, mayby whole plot of Game of Thrones where difrent, etc. Today romances doesn't have this class of meaning to a storyline, in best case they have the same pupuse and meaning as Greyjoy banging some prostitute in brothel and seeing their nude parts in TV so some can fap to them xD

 

Same value of meaning to the plot, same result xD

Edited August 27, 2014 by Ulquiorra

[LeBurns]

IMO every good CRPG also contains within it a good virtual novel, the story, the driving force behind playing the game.  Some virtual novels have romance in them, other don't.  BG didn't, BG2 did.  I prefer BG2.  Of course the virtual novel in BG2 was harder to write, but like most things the more effort you put into it the better.

 

Course if the PoE writer just can't write a good romance virtual novel, well guess what, there are a lot of writers that can.  I would have assumed they got enough money to hire one.

[Fluffle]

 

Course if the PoE writer just can't write a good romance virtual novel, well guess what, there are a lot of writers that can.

 

Maybe they don't want to?

[Longknife]

 

Ok, someone explain this to me:

 

 

Why the **** would you be head-over-heels insistent romance needs to be involved in the game? I'm not good at being anything but blunt, so I'll just say I find the concept absolutely cringeworthy. It's you - the player and a human being - attempting to romance a string of coding and AI. I could agree if someone made an argument that trying to romance someone is a form of quest and challenge that adds to the gameplay, yeah.

 

 

You see there are two types of players:

 

1. That are playing beacous, gameplay, mechanics, leveling, items, graphics, armor, etc.

 

2. Ther are playing becouse, plot, athosphere, roleplayability, dialogs, and some sort of "Fantasy".

 

 

 

 

....Really dude? Really?

 

 

No, no there AREN'T two types of players, you wanna know why? Because me personally, the only two games in recent years that I'd praise are Fallout New Vegas and Dark Souls. I would NOT praise Dark Souls II, and you know why? Because although they improved on several basic mechanics, the story sucked. There WAS no story. It was blatantly obvious the vision was lost along with the old director.

 

You're basically trying to claim I "just don't get it" because art and good storyline is beyond me. In reality you can find me on the Bethesda forums preaching "a good game can last you a couple years, a good story can last you a lifetime," slamming on Skyrim and praising New Vegas and saying future titles would be sorely mistaken not to divert more focus to good storytelling.

 

 

 

 

Guess what?

 

Romance is the easiest ****ing cop-out pseudo-deep storyline mechanic in the book. Look at Twilight. Look at Inuyasha. Look at 90% of anime for that matter. I hate anime, but might use anime as a reference example in a bit...

There are COUNTLESS storylines and plots critically regarded as being absolute balls awful where the main focus was romance. Please, attempt to remove any romance and sexual tension from my above examples and ask yourself if they'd have an audience beyond chapter 2. Romance is a crutch, and it's a crutch that's used far too often.

 

  Great example? A great example actually is anime, for as much as I hate it. You wanna know the only anime I ever liked and considered to have artistic merit? Cowboy Bebop. Guess what? It's one of the few animes you'll name without sexual tension. Hilariously, there's people who clearly missed the message - the romance junkies - who try and insist Spike and Faye had something going on. No, no not really. Any flirting between them or moments of care was more or less a tool used to continue presenting the overarching theme of your past catching up to you or not being able to move on from your past; the exact same elements can be found between Spike and Jet, where there's obviously no romance now is there? Faye has no past and is trying to build a future, Spike can't escape his past and is practically stuck in it aka "living a dream I never wake up from," Jet has past struggles as well but as chosen to press on and try for a future aswell. They're foils.

  And lo and behold, it's one of the greatest rated anime of all time. Wanna know a highly acclaimed anime? Evangelion, where once again, the little romance there is takes more of  a backseat as a literary tool rather than "KAWAII UGU DESU ^_^ WHEN WILL THEY REALIZE THEY'RE MEANT FOR EACH OTHER THE ANTICIPATION IS KILLING ME!" Likewise, know of any critically acclaimed anime moves? I do: Spirited Away. Anything by Miyazaki really. And while I don't really find myself a fan of any anime outside of Cowboy Bebop (anime is typically just too overdramatic for me), you'll quickly notice a pattern: the highest rated anime skip the romance crutch. NOW ISN'T THAT INTERESTING???

 

 

Could it be because it's been done before?

Could it be that, for as interesting as it may be to watch a relationship unfold the first time, it holds NO artistic merit and won't be interesting on your second go-around?

 

 

YOU KNOW WAT, I THINK THAT MIGHT JUST BE IT, BY GUM!

 

 

Please, kindly sit down and think of a work of art and critically acclaimed movie, book, television show or what-have-you where the focal point was romance. I think you'll find the Green Mile didn't use that crutch, nor did Shawshank Redemption. And pro-tip: people don't go watch Death of a Salesman in the theater for the RIVETING ROMANTIC TENSION between Willy and the prostitute. Nah, as it turns out it's a social commentary on the American dream! Those crazy, silly artists and their non-romance-focused visions! When will they learn!?

 

And if you think Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew or Romeo and Juliet are famous because of the romance, I'm afraid you missed the point. If you think Oscar Wilde's the Importance of Being Earnest is about romance, again you missed the point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Case and point:  Romance is a crutch. It's a literary crutch. There's nothing wrong with romance existing as side flavor, something akin to Cass and the Courier, but that's it. Side flavor like that is exactly what we MIGHT still encounter. But romance as a focal point? That's a crutch. A crutch that has nothing meaningful to say and feeds off the lowest common denominator for an audience. I think you'll find you'll struggle to name a work of art with critical acclaim where the focal point or major element was romance, and I for one am rather disappointed to see this many people considering romance to be some great little element that any good, well-written story MUST have! Holy balls, kill me now.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Longknife

[Elerond]

 

Case and point:  Romance is a crutch. It's a literary crutch. There's nothing wrong with romance existing as side flavor, something akin to Cass and the Courier, but that's it. Side flavor like that is exactly what we MIGHT still encounter. But romance as a focal point? That's a crutch. A crutch that has nothing meaningful to say and feeds off the lowest common denominator for an audience. I think you'll find you'll struggle to name a work of art with critical acclaim where the focal point or major element was romance, and I for one am rather disappointed to see this many people considering romance to be some great little element that any good, well-written story MUST have! Holy balls, kill me now.

 

 

Romeo and Juliet

Titanic

West Side Story (although this is only modernized version of Romeo and Juliet)

Before Sunrise

Pride and Prejudice

Anna Karenina

Gone With the Wind

The Notebook

The Time Traveler's Wife

Jane Eyre

Message in a Bottle

 

As for example of critically acclaimed novels and movies that have romance as one of their main focal points.

[dorkboy]

Crutch or no crutch, books do not have mechanics beyond just turning the page. Games do.

 

That makes it a different pudding altogether. Well-written dialogue is probably hard enough already, then add to that choice/consequence and meaningful gameplay/agency.

It seems to me that those things are tricky enough in and of themselves, and adding something as inherently tricky as romance on top of that - something's gotta give;

Either poorly written dialogue, flat gameplay, or "Romance" that simply doesn't feel very romantic at all. 

 

Some people love that, of course, just like some people love soap operas.

[Mayama]

Romeo and Juliet

Pride and Prejudice

Anna Karenina

Gone With the Wind

Jane Eyre

I only comment on the ones I know

 

Pride and Predjudice: Is a comment on growing up, morality, power and class divison in the english society.

 

Anna Karenina: Is a comment on russian society, family and death. (...and like almost all russian books anti zarist)

 

Gone with the wind: Portrait of the downfall of the southern american lifestyle. (Thats why Red Buttler did not give a damn because he symbolized the new area)

 

Jane Eyre: Its a bout gender inequality and social class divison.

 

Romeo and Juliet: Its about how dreams cannot survive reality. (Their are speculations that its also a comment on the queen which shakespeer disliked)

 

 

All great stories use love as a vehicle to transport a deeper message. Thats why stuff like titanic is considered B-Grade. Love itself is not very interesting in stories because you dont need to explain it, you can always just say "those two are in love". It needs something else to make it important.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Mayama

[Elerond]

 

Romeo and Juliet

Pride and Prejudice

Anna Karenina

Gone With the Wind

Jane Eyre

I only comment on the ones I know

 

Pride and Predjudice: Is a comment on growing up, morality, power and class divison in the english society.

 

Anna Karenina: Is a comment on russian society, family and death. (...and like almost all russian books anti zarist)

 

Gone with the wind: Portrait of the downfall of the southern american lifestyle. (Thats why Red Buttler did not give a damn because he symbolized the new area)

 

Jane Eyre: Its a bout gender inequality and social class divison.

 

Romeo and Juliet: Its about how dreams cannot survive reality. (Their are speculations that its also a comment on the queen which shakespeer disliked)

 

 

All great stories use love as a vehicle to transport a deeper message. Thats why stuff like titanic is considered B-Grade. Love itself is not very interesting in stories because you dont need to explain it, you can always just say "those two are in love". It needs something else to make it important.

 

 

All these stories use romance as one of their focal point to help them to tell their messages. 

 

I would point out that Titanic comments of social class structure and how some people are felt to have right to some privileges that other people don't have. It uses romance of higher class woman and lower class man to look how those classes see each other and what kind of expectations they have. And in end it takes look how some of those privileges don't die even in face of disaster that risk life all the people.

 

Great stories need conflict that don't have singular straightforward answer which keeps readers interest up and where people can ponder things from multiple points of views. In most of these stories romance is part conflict as they take look if love between two people should negate society's expectations and rules, and etc. things. Love or any other singular thing isn't usually enough make story interesting, but instead you need mix of multiple things that create conflict in the story and how that conflict will solved in the end are usually the key to make story interesting and gives it ability to tell some sort of message.

[Ulquiorra]

 

 

Ok, someone explain this to me:

 

 

Why the **** would you be head-over-heels insistent romance needs to be involved in the game? I'm not good at being anything but blunt, so I'll just say I find the concept absolutely cringeworthy. It's you - the player and a human being - attempting to romance a string of coding and AI. I could agree if someone made an argument that trying to romance someone is a form of quest and challenge that adds to the gameplay, yeah.

 

 

You see there are two types of players:

 

1. That are playing beacous, gameplay, mechanics, leveling, items, graphics, armor, etc.

 

2. Ther are playing becouse, plot, athosphere, roleplayability, dialogs, and some sort of "Fantasy".

 

 

 

 

....Really dude? Really?

 

 

No, no there AREN'T two types of players, you wanna know why? Because me personally, the only two games in recent years that I'd praise are Fallout New Vegas and Dark Souls. I would NOT praise Dark Souls II, and you know why? Because although they improved on several basic mechanics, the story sucked. There WAS no story. It was blatantly obvious the vision was lost along with the old director.

 

You're basically trying to claim I "just don't get it" because art and good storyline is beyond me. In reality you can find me on the Bethesda forums preaching "a good game can last you a couple years, a good story can last you a lifetime," slamming on Skyrim and praising New Vegas and saying future titles would be sorely mistaken not to divert more focus to good storytelling.

 

No there are 2 GENERAL types of playes, and you clearly did not udnerstand what i was saying. I sad that 1 type of player moslty like gamlay/ grinding, secound MOSTLY like roleplaying and plot, that doesn't meant that if they encounter a game with both, they will only see gameplay or storyline, thei will see both and prise both, but for one of them gamplay is more important, for secound role play is more imortany, someone likes icecream becouse their cold, someone becouse they are sweet xD But both will say that icecram are cold and sweet

 

 

Guess what?

 

 

Romance is the easiest ****ing cop-out pseudo-deep storyline mechanic in the book. Look at Twilight. Look at Inuyasha. Look at 90% of anime for that matter. I hate anime, but might use anime as a reference example in a bit...

There are COUNTLESS storylines and plots critically regarded as being absolute balls awful where the main focus was romance. Please, attempt to remove any romance and sexual tension from my above examples and ask yourself if they'd have an audience beyond chapter 2. Romance is a crutch, and it's a crutch that's used far too often.

 

  Great example? A great example actually is anime, for as much as I hate it. You wanna know the only anime I ever liked and considered to have artistic merit? Cowboy Bebop. Guess what? It's one of the few animes you'll name without sexual tension. Hilariously, there's people who clearly missed the message - the romance junkies - who try and insist Spike and Faye had something going on. No, no not really. Any flirting between them or moments of care was more or less a tool used to continue presenting the overarching theme of your past catching up to you or not being able to move on from your past; the exact same elements can be found between Spike and Jet, where there's obviously no romance now is there? Faye has no past and is trying to build a future, Spike can't escape his past and is practically stuck in it aka "living a dream I never wake up from," Jet has past struggles as well but as chosen to press on and try for a future aswell. They're foils.

  And lo and behold, it's one of the greatest rated anime of all time. Wanna know a highly acclaimed anime? Evangelion, where once again, the little romance there is takes more of  a backseat as a literary tool rather than "KAWAII UGU DESU ^_^ WHEN WILL THEY REALIZE THEY'RE MEANT FOR EACH OTHER THE ANTICIPATION IS KILLING ME!" Likewise, know of any critically acclaimed anime moves? I do: Spirited Away. Anything by Miyazaki really. And while I don't really find myself a fan of any anime outside of Cowboy Bebop (anime is typically just too overdramatic for me), you'll quickly notice a pattern: the highest rated anime skip the romance crutch. NOW ISN'T THAT INTERESTING???

 

 

Could it be because it's been done before?

Could it be that, for as interesting as it may be to watch a relationship unfold the first time, it holds NO artistic merit and won't be interesting on your second go-around?

 

 

YOU KNOW WAT, I THINK THAT MIGHT JUST BE IT, BY GUM!

 

 

Please, kindly sit down and think of a work of art and critically acclaimed movie, book, television show or what-have-you where the focal point was romance. I think you'll find the Green Mile didn't use that crutch, nor did Shawshank Redemption. And pro-tip: people don't go watch Death of a Salesman in the theater for the RIVETING ROMANTIC TENSION between Willy and the prostitute. Nah, as it turns out it's a social commentary on the American dream! Those crazy, silly artists and their non-romance-focused visions! When will they learn!?

 

And if you think Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew or Romeo and Juliet are famous because of the romance, I'm afraid you missed the point. If you think Oscar Wilde's the Importance of Being Earnest is about romance, again you missed the point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Case and point:  Romance is a crutch. It's a literary crutch. There's nothing wrong with romance existing as side flavor, something akin to Cass and the Courier, but that's it. Side flavor like that is exactly what we MIGHT still encounter. But romance as a focal point? That's a crutch. A crutch that has nothing meaningful to say and feeds off the lowest common denominator for an audience. I think you'll find you'll struggle to name a work of art with critical acclaim where the focal point or major element was romance, and I for one am rather disappointed to see this many people considering romance to be some great little element that any good, well-written story MUST have! Holy balls, kill me now.

 

 

You see, the same thing coud be sad about almost everthing that is a "crutch." and we can say the same thing about evrything that is put to a movie to make it "more popular", we can say this about killing, shonen-type fights, big-boobs, sexism (both female and male), we can say it about a scene where to guys meet and dring a beer etc etc etc.

 

I will not even say anything about anime becouse on this forum is pro-romances says anything about it people starting to call him "otaku" so it's privilidge to people that don't like romances.

 

The thing about adding or not adding is not a discussion if it fits the story, so when you trying to in some way "Show us meaningless" of romances in generaland forceing it becouse it was used in twillight, is the same type of behavior as kids saying "if there are gona be no romances i will cry and don't play any obsidian game" or "i will take my many that i gived you becouse i was expecting romances" xD

 

As i sad, you may not like romances, and find it stupid and breaks you rpg expierience or you are consern about reasorces. I alredy say that "romancing" shoud be a plot/storyline decision that affect's it. You don't like romances so you take difrent decision ... i take other problem solved everyone is happy.

 

 

Saying that romances are bad in general is same kind of ignorance as saing that having friends or seeing dying someone close to you or a friend killed by someone is also a "crutch", those type of things are for makeing story more emotional and if we whoud cutt everything that works on the same level as romances. Then this game whoud be another diablo 3 in with you kille 1000 demons in one fight and even don't feel a "hint" of emotion in that battle.

 

 

But i will use the same kind of logic to another thing. Let's say that in most books there are some awkward elements about dringing, useing drags etc, with you logic becouse many of those elements where add in awkward yau we shoud cut any content realated to drugs and alkohol becouse is "coud" be awkward xD

Edited August 28, 2014 by Ulquiorra

[BruceVC]

 

 

Case and point:  Romance is a crutch. It's a literary crutch. There's nothing wrong with romance existing as side flavor, something akin to Cass and the Courier, but that's it. Side flavor like that is exactly what we MIGHT still encounter. But romance as a focal point? That's a crutch. A crutch that has nothing meaningful to say and feeds off the lowest common denominator for an audience. I think you'll find you'll struggle to name a work of art with critical acclaim where the focal point or major element was romance, and I for one am rather disappointed to see this many people considering romance to be some great little element that any good, well-written story MUST have! Holy balls, kill me now.

 

 

Romeo and Juliet

Titanic

West Side Story (although this is only modernized version of Romeo and Juliet)

Before Sunrise

Pride and Prejudice

Anna Karenina

Gone With the Wind

The Notebook

The Time Traveler's Wife

Jane Eyre

Message in a Bottle

 

As for example of critically acclaimed novels and movies that have romance as one of their main focal points.

 

 

Wow Longknife, you talk about your  point being utterly and completely negated. Back to the drawing board for you my friend

 

Its a completely ridiculous suggestion to make that the idea of Romance is not a central theme in many movies or books

[GrinningReaper659]

@Longknife I strongly disagree with a lot of the points you've made here. I liked your post despite some objections because of the excellent points you made about the risk not really being worth including romance, and I of course agree that romance should never be included if the writer doesn't want to write it. Also, just to be clear, I have no interest in romances being in PoE. If they're done well as a part of a story, then great, but tacking them on to appease fans is always a bad idea.

 

Your incredulity as to how someone could possibly be interested in romancing a series of pixels is completely misplaced. It's no different than saying that it's ridiculous to have meaningful friendships written involving party-joinable NPCs in a game. I mean, what kind of a weirdo would want to simulate befriending, battling, or romancing a series of pixels? Well, generally, people that enjoy experiencing games (specifically story-driven games) want exactly that. Stories often involve personal relationships, and games are a different form of experiencing a story. Drawing the line at romance doesn't really make much sense. To say that it might be best to avoid it because it is so often done poorly, while friendships are so often done well, is much more reasonable. I've got no love for the cringe-worthy moments of sexuality and romance in games, but examples of poorly written video game romances shouldn't serve as a rule that romance can't be a part of a meaningful story, which brings us to your point about romances in critically acclaimed fiction.

 

Your challenge to provide examples of critically acclaimed works which have romance as their central focus is flawed in that it doesn't actually prove anything regarding including romance in a game. At best it would suggest that games shouldn't have romance as the central focus, which as far as I can tell none of the romance proponents here are arguing for. The Baldur's Gate games were a story about the children of the Lord of Murder and that which resulted from their attempts to ascend to godhood; the PC getting hot and heavy with Aerie was simply a possible part of that story. So, every single critically acclaimed work of fiction that has a romance as a part of its story serves to support the inclusion of romance in games by this same logic. Also, there actually are a good number of critically acclaimed works of fiction that are almost undeniably centered around romance. With many stories, one could go back and forth on whether or not romance was "central" to the story. In the case of the films Before Sunrise and Before Sunset, however, I don't see how any reasonable critic could claim that romance isn't central to the story.

 

Anyway, like I said before, I am firmly planted on the side of not including romances in video games unless they're an inherent part of the writer's story. Even in the cases of writers wanting to include them, I would advise caution in that we have seen them done more poorly than other types of relationships time and time again. I just thought I should point out what I see as a few mistakes in your arguments, though I wholeheartedly agree with your stance.

[BruceVC]

@Longknife I strongly disagree with a lot of the points you've made here. I liked your post despite some objections because of the excellent points you made about the risk not really being worth including romance, and I of course agree that romance should never be included if the writer doesn't want to write it. Also, just to be clear, I have no interest in romances being in PoE. If they're done well as a part of a story, then great, but tacking them on to appease fans is always a bad idea.

 

Your incredulity as to how someone could possibly be interested in romancing a series of pixels is completely misplaced. It's no different than saying that it's ridiculous to have meaningful friendships written involving party-joinable NPCs in a game. I mean, what kind of a weirdo would want to simulate befriending, battling, or romancing a series of pixels? Well, generally, people that enjoy experiencing games (specifically story-driven games) want exactly that. Stories often involve personal relationships, and games are a different form of experiencing a story. Drawing the line at romance doesn't really make much sense. To say that it might be best to avoid it because it is so often done poorly, while friendships are so often done well, is much more reasonable. I've got no love for the cringe-worthy moments of sexuality and romance in games, but examples of poorly written video game romances shouldn't serve as a rule that romance can't be a part of a meaningful story, which brings us to your point about romances in critically acclaimed fiction.

 

Your challenge to provide examples of critically acclaimed works which have romance as their central focus is flawed in that it doesn't actually prove anything regarding including romance in a game. At best it would suggest that games shouldn't have romance as the central focus, which as far as I can tell none of the romance proponents here are arguing for. The Baldur's Gate games were a story about the children of the Lord of Murder and that which resulted from their attempts to ascend to godhood; the PC getting hot and heavy with Aerie was simply a possible part of that story. So, every single critically acclaimed work of fiction that has a romance as a part of its story serves to support the inclusion of romance in games by this same logic. Also, there actually are a good number of critically acclaimed works of fiction that are almost undeniably centered around romance. With many stories, one could go back and forth on whether or not romance was "central" to the story. In the case of the films Before Sunrise and Before Sunset, however, I don't see how any reasonable critic could claim that romance isn't central to the story.

 

Anyway, like I said before, I am firmly planted on the side of not including romances in video games unless they're an inherent part of the writer's story. Even in the cases of writers wanting to include them, I would advise caution in that we have seen them done more poorly than other types of relationships time and time again. I just thought I should point out what I see as a few mistakes in your arguments, though I wholeheartedly agree with your stance.

 

Excellent post, QFT

 

I just want to reiterate  a point you made. I  know many people who make comments like " wow promancers are weird, they want to Romance people in a game. Get a  RL girlfriend , you people need to get a life"  and similar comments

 

The objective or interest in Romance is no more weird than people who want meaningful and sincere interaction with party members, people that demand realistic armour or weapons, people that want a realistic game economy or dozens of other examples I can give that constitute and define your RPG experience

 

A person should never demonstrate the hubris to tell others that asking for feature X or feature Y is weird or unreasonable  in a RPG. We all have different expectations and things we enjoy when we play a RPG

[Ulquiorra]

I just want to reiterate  a point you made. I  know many people who make comments like " wow promancers are weird, they want to Romance people in a game. Get a  RL girlfriend , you people need to get a life"  and similar comments

 

The objective or interest in Romance is no more weird than people who want meaningful and sincere interaction with party members, people that demand realistic armour or weapons, people that want a realistic game economy or dozens of other examples I can give that constitute and define your RPG experience

 

 

I've alredy said, telling that romancers are want to fap ti pixels or romance pixels, is the same type of logic like saying that anty-romancers that are mosly interested in gamplay are faping and getting off becouse then menage to find "Better aword/armor" or level up ....

 

How many peaople doest this... 0,001 % ? xD