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Hi everyone.

Well I already warn my English is execrable.

For me the fact that there is no romance in PoE is a major loss for the roleplay. No this is not something secondary, why deprive us of this aspect of the roleplay? Some people do not like it? Although they did what did not initiate dialogues triggers ... I do not want a ass scene like to Mass Effect, The Witcher or Dragon Age. Just like the relationship we had in Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape Torment or even Kotor would be perfect.

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Sorry to criticize your opinion again but the suggestion that something optional that is a small part of the overall RPG experience in any game could somehow " ruin the RPG genre "

A small part of the RPG experience? We're getting this from you?!

 

You judge games by their romances, Bruce. If Romances were really a "small part of the RPG experience", then by all means, Admit that they're not important. AGREE with me that they're little more than window dressing - Gimmicks that add flavor to a game and little else.

 

Of course you won't do any such thing, because in your mind, Romances have become a fundamental, almost vital, part of an RPG experience. And you're not alone. That's the problem I'm talking about. RPGs are not soap operas. But look at Bioware. Their games are interative soap operas. One need only visit BSN for 5 minutes to see the truth behind my words. On the Bioware forums, RPG stands for Romance Player Games in the minds of it its 3 million+ members. There is no way anyone can play a modern day Bioware game and claim that Romance is 'a small part of the RPG experience'.

 

 

No ..no... Stun, you have misunderstood my perspective on Romance. And I need to take some responsibility for that for not making my point clearer

 

Romance is important but its just a form of party interaction. And party interaction is important but that's just a small part (15 % ?) of the overall RPG experience. How many times have I said " I'm disappointed that PoE won't have Romance but I'm sure the game will still be very entertaining". That's because there are many things that define the RPG experience to me more than party interaction. Things like the various races in the world , monsters, exploration, dungeons, quests, lore and narrative are more important to me than party interaction

 

But I'm confident that Obsidian has those things covered so I don't feel the need to discuss them or say "there should be exciting and multi-levelled dungeons to explore", we know those  are in the  game. But since this is a Romance thread and we know Romance isn't in the game this is what I feel is a relevant discussion.

 

So in summary of course I like Romance but its not the most important part of an RPG for me, I really thought you knew that ?

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Hi everyone.

 

Well I already warn my English is execrable.

 

For me the fact that there is no romance in PoE is a major loss for the roleplay. No this is not something secondary, why deprive us of this aspect of the roleplay? Some people do not like it? Although they did what did not initiate dialogues triggers ... I do not want a ass scene like to Mass Effect, The Witcher or Dragon Age. Just like the relationship we had in Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape Torment or even Kotor would be perfect.

 

Welcome to the forums and the promancer army :thumbsup:

 

You views on Romance are appreciated here :)

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Hi everyone.

 

Well I already warn my English is execrable.

 

For me the fact that there is no romance in PoE is a major loss for the roleplay. No this is not something secondary, why deprive us of this aspect of the roleplay? Some people do not like it? Although they did what did not initiate dialogues triggers ... I do not want a ass scene like to Mass Effect, The Witcher or Dragon Age. Just like the relationship we had in Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape Torment or even Kotor would be perfect.

 

Play the game, see how it actually works, and then we shall see if there is deprivation involved and if role-play actually does suffer.  I get where you guys are coming from but let's give them a chance before we pronounce it a major loss.  I personally never considered anything we had going on in PS:T a romance besides Deionarra and even then you are coming in at the end.   So if you think that is perfect maybe it will still work out.

Edited by Valmy

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Welcome to the forums and the promancer army :thumbsup:

 

You views on Romance are appreciated here :)

 

 

The doom and gloom approach is right in your wheelhouse here ;)

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Also I like your forum name, its cute. What is the history to "PieSnatcher"  ?

Long, long ago, whilst deciding a user name for something else, I had just started watching Arrested Development (so I guess that makes it about 10 years ago). The first thing I thought of was "Mr Banana Grabber", after GOB's character, of course. I was immediately informed by my friend that said name had certain phallic connotations. Thusly, I changed the name. But my mind was already on the subject of alimentary banditry. So I changed Grabber to Snatcher and substituted Pie for Banana. And dropped he "mister" of course. After all, we just say "manager", not "Mr Manager".

I was later told that I had chosen a name with an opposing connotation. But what's done is done, and G-Dangit I love pie. Except lemon pies. Those are disgusting.

 

On topic: Stun, curious, did you find the quasi-romances in PS:T intrusive or detrimental to the game? Do they qualify as "romances"? Because so far those have been my favorite, but they are pretty different from the "Bioware romances"

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Don't mind Stun, an RPG romance killed his parents. :(

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The sky had never seemed so sky, the world had never seemed so world.

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Did i read on page 12 someone suggested it´s good to have a PC or NPC with a broken heart, or interesting ? Seriously...maybe some dont know but you are an adventurer in PoE who is out there on his best and worst experience of his whole live. Danger and creepy creatures and so on...

 

That some of you are passionate about romances ok that seems to be the case... but broken hearts and drama ? Even murder because of envy? IS the evil stepmum in your way because she doesnt wants her only son (who is very rich of course) to marry you because she´s the disney icon of an evil stepmom?

Did the Avatar forgot about you and just ran away with a harbor harlot ? Did Jack the Ripper had a secret relationship to Rose from the titanic (is rose the Ripper) ? Is having a picnic at midnight on a graveyard considered to be romantic when rotten bodies (not babys) are being dished up ?

 

This are all important questions and need an answering. You should consider them Obsidian my romantic brothers of the lady rose! And if the end will come and the earth will burn and explode we will always remember the tale of the twinsissys... uh my... twin...ups ! My brain just fell out my head....

Edited by NWN_babaYaga

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On topic: Stun, curious, did you find the quasi-romances in PS:T intrusive or detrimental to the game? Do they qualify as "romances"? Because so far those have been my favorite, but they are pretty different from the "Bioware romances"

I don't understand why (or when) we've somehow allowed the promancers to convince us that PS:T had romances when it did not. Dieonarra is not a romance. She is a plot device designed to invoke the emotion of regret. She's also a Ghost (a specter, to use the official D&D undead species-type) If she's a romance then so is Dakkon, Vhailor, Ignus, Ravel, and Nemille's sister in the Clerk's ward.... since all of them were also plot devices designed to invoke regret.

 

But if we must grotesquely broaden the term "romance" so that any well-written NPC falls into the definition, then yes, I liked all 6 or 7 of PS:T's "romances". But I'm not going to play that silly word-play game. PS:T did not have romances. it just had very well-written characters all around. Promancers are trying to associate their cause with every deep, thought provoking NPC ever written so that they can then turn around and say: "See? Romance = Well written characters! If you're against romance, then you're against good writing in video games!"

Edited by Stun
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On topic: Stun, curious, did you find the quasi-romances in PS:T intrusive or detrimental to the game? Do they qualify as "romances"? Because so far those have been my favorite, but they are pretty different from the "Bioware romances"

I don't understand why (or when) we've somehow allowed the promancers to convince us that PS:T had romances when it did not. Dieonarra is not a romance. She is a plot device designed to provoke the emotion of regret. She's also a Ghost (a specter, to use the official D&D undead species-type) If she's a romance then so is Dakkon, and Vhailor, and Ignus, since all three of them were also plot devices designed to provoke regret.

 

But if we must grotesquely broaden the term "romance" so that every single well written NPC ever created falls into the definition, then yes, I liked all 6 or 7 of PS:T's "romances". But I'm not going to play that silly word-play game. PS:T did not have romances. Promancers are trying to take territory that does not belong to them and their cause.

 

I thought Ravel was the Romance in PST - she clearly loved TNO in the past, and it kind of motivates the whole thing.

 

Know a lot of people claim there's a romance with FALL-FROM-GRACE (don't see it) and Annah (which I'd say really is more of the beginning of a possible romance if TNO didn't off-it to the Blood War, it could have happened, I guess).

Edited by Amentep
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Yeah those promancers are mighty persuasive with their tricky word games and mischievous employ of semantics.

If she's a romance then so is Dakkon, Vhailor, Ignus, Ravel, and Nemille's sister in the Clerk's ward.... since all of them were also plot devices designed to invoke regret.

Ignus was definitely my favorite romance. He so hot.

 

That or Annah. Who's loyalty you can inspire platonically or romantically. And the latter can be done sincerely- I find it interesting that this affection, however, can doom her just as surely as the disingenuous love his previous incarnation held for Dieonarra proved fatal for her. In my mind, this is an example of how "romance" in a broader sense can enhance a game's narrative. There I go again, being tricky. ;)

 

I'm not trying to get anyone to "admit" that they like romances. I'm just trying to see where people draw the line and how they define romances. If saying "romance" and PS:T in the same breath offends people we can simply call them "characters and plot devices with limited interactive and/or passive elements that whilst touching on themes of love, relationship, flirtation, and/or infatuation, do not in any way constitute a romance." The point I'm trying to make is that, whatever those were in PS:T, I thought those at least worked well.

 

Promancers are trying to associate their cause with every deep, thought provoking NPC ever written so that they can then turn around and say: "See? Romance = Well written characters! If you're against romance, then you're against good writing in video games!"

My clever ruse has been exposed! :) Gee Stun, you clearly hate good writing. Probably happiness too. Edited by PieSnatcher
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With enough creative interpretation of the definition of "Romances", we can argue that PS:T has about a dozen Romanceable NPCs.

 

1) Annah - Because you can kiss her

2) Fall from Grace ("Don't forget me" - that's the last thing she implores you before the game ends)

3) Dakkon - You saved his life; he owes you his, and the both of you proclaim that your 2 deaths will be as one

4) Ravel - as disgusting as the Promancer mind can be

5) The Lady of Pain - you have a memory of one of your past incarnations falling in love with her, and even breaking Sigil law so that you can meet her and gaze upon her beauty

6) Dieonarra - because she calls you "my love" (All promancers eat that sh*t up)

7) Vivienne - she hugs you and gives you some of her scent

8.) Fell - he dedicates his entire studio to you. And that studio is a *shrine* devoted to your flesh. If that's not love then what is?

9) Nemille's sister (I forget her name...Alinwynne?) She and one of your past incarnations had a courtship

10) Tainted Barse's Daughter in Curst - you save her life and she hugs and kisses you

11-12-13) Mabbeth, Marta, El-vine - all 3 are aspects of Ravel, and thus are romances by extension.

 

But lets get real. None of these are Romances. Not even close.

Edited by Stun
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Well, flirting with Annah did little but somewhat flatten her character into a kinda trite and Young Adult-esque character, IMO, rather than a more hardcore, plane-touched misfit. 

 

I can see how people find it makes characters more relatable, as in 'more ordinary', but the cool thing about fantasy and other "out there" genres is they can take a concept like souls, death/afterlife, good/evil or chaos/law at face value and just run with it - creating some potentially extraordinary and uniquely interesting characters and situations. 

 

Maybe CNPCs are just one-trick ponies in terms of how they are perceived? 

Edited by dorkboy
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This statement is false.

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With enough creative interpretation of the definition of "Romances", we can argue that PS:T has about a dozen Romanceable NPCs.

 

1) Annah - Because you can kiss her

2) Fall from Grace ("Don't forget me" - that's the last thing she implores you before the game ends)

3) Dakkon - You saved his life; he owes you his, and the both of you proclaim that your 2 deaths will be as one

4) Ravel - as disgusting as the Promancer mind can be

5) The Lady of Pain - you have a memory of one of your past incarnations falling in love with her, and even breaking Sigil law so that you can meet her and gaze upon her beauty

6) Dieonarra - because she calls you "my love" (All promancers eat that sh*t up)

7) Vivienne - she hugs you and gives you some of her scent

8.) Fell - he dedicates his entire studio to you. And that studio is a *shrine* devoted to your flesh. If that's not love then what is?

9) Nemille's sister (I forget her name...Alinwynne?) She and one of your past incarnations had a courtship

10) Tainted Barse's Daughter in Curst - you save her life and she hugs and kisses you

11-12-13) Mabbeth, Marta, El-vine - all 3 are aspects of Ravel, and thus are romances by extension.

 

But lets get real. None of these are Romances. Not even close.

Ravel's clearly in love with TNO and they clearly had a relationship in the past (I don't think there's anything that indicates it was sincere on TNO's part, rather than a way to get out of his fate). That said you don't romance Ravel in the game, sure, but that past relationship motivates everything.

 

But really surprised in all of your mocking there you missed Acaste, clearly the scarred and dead looking TNO and her was a match made in...er...a crypt or something. :p

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Well, flirting with Annah did little but somewhat flatten her character into a kinda trite and Young Adult-esque character, IMO, rather than a more hardcore, plane-touched misfit.

 

I can see how people find it makes characters more relatable, as in 'more ordinary', but the cool thing about fantasy and other "out there" genres is they can take a concept like souls, death/afterlife, good/evil or chaos/law at face value and just run with it - creating some potentially extraordinary and uniquely interesting characters and situations.

 

Maybe CNPCs are just one-trick ponies in terms of how they are perceived?

 

Yeah, I guess I'd agree with that. I suppose it was more the gravity of her sacrifice that I liked more than anything- and any loyal to TNO got shafted in that same way Edited by PieSnatcher

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But really surprised in all of your mocking there you missed Acaste, clearly the scarred and dead looking TNO and her was a match made in...er...a crypt or something. :p

lol

 

I did miss Stale Mary. A chick that teaches a man how to listen. I've seen Romances spawn from much less.

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With enough creative interpretation of the definition of "Romances", we can argue that PS:T has about a dozen Romanceable NPCs.

 

1) Annah - Because you can kiss her

2) Fall from Grace ("Don't forget me" - that's the last thing she implores you before the game ends)

3) Dakkon - You saved his life; he owes you his, and the both of you proclaim that your 2 deaths will be as one

4) Ravel - as disgusting as the Promancer mind can be

5) The Lady of Pain - you have a memory of one of your past incarnations falling in love with her, and even breaking Sigil law so that you can meet her and gaze upon her beauty

6) Dieonarra - because she calls you "my love" (All promancers eat that sh*t up)

7) Vivienne - she hugs you and gives you some of her scent

8.) Fell - he dedicates his entire studio to you. And that studio is a *shrine* devoted to your flesh. If that's not love then what is?

9) Nemille's sister (I forget her name...Alinwynne?) She and one of your past incarnations had a courtship

10) Tainted Barse's Daughter in Curst - you save her life and she hugs and kisses you

11-12-13) Mabbeth, Marta, El-vine - all 3 are aspects of Ravel, and thus are romances by extension.

 

But lets get real. None of these are Romances. Not even close.

 

No.

 

But all of them are romance. And that's much better.


I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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Fortunately, none of those characters will be making a return in T:ToN. And I hope none of the CNPCs from PoE will return in a "hypothetical" PoE 2.

The way BG2 brought back "Your favourite characters from BG1, right? Right? You liked these characters in BG1, didn't you?" was a cheese unto itself.

 

Oh hey, I found a duck on the ground..


This statement is false.

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Welcome to the forums and the promancer army :thumbsup:

Whoa whoa whoa... army?! I'm a lover, not a fighter. 6_u

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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So the solution would be simple:

We just need to implement romances that Stun cannot recognize as such.

As shown with Planescape:Torment there are a lot of possibilities.

 

Then we will be able to enjoy romances while Stun doesn't even know that they're there ^_^

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Let's take for example the Mass Effects games. Now, if, hypothetically, my Femshep had wanted to romance someone - well I was already in trouble because I let Kaiden die because Ash was my BFF, and my Femshep was only into human males so that ruled Liara out, but let's pretend for a moment it had been Kaiden who had lived. The only two options in the romance conversation were basically 'ugh no I don't fancy you Kaiden' or 'take me now you biotic stallion!' But maybe I don't care for either of those options. Maybe Femshep is a classy lady and Kaiden needs to woo me first, maybe take me to a museum or something, had you thought of that Kaiden, huh, had you?!? If you like it, maybe you should try putting a ring on it!

 

So for someone who is totes down for a quickie in the captain's quarters and that's the end of that relationship, that might seem like an OK romance, but not for my Femshep, no Sir. I'm not breaking Space Corps directives on fraternisation for a casual fling.

 

The problem is, different people have different opinions of how they want their character to act in a relationship, and probably stronger opinions than they have of other decisions their characters might make, and thus romances are gonna end up sucking for a large percentage of players unless an even larger amount of resources are pumped into them.

This is absolutely true, but, I really don't think that in romance, or anything, really, it's the developer's responsibility to please everyone. I mean, hell... pick a genre for your game, and you just alienated a huge portion of the gaming populous. That's just how things are. You make a pizza place, you sell to people who like pizza. Maybe you sell dessert pizzas, and maybe you don't. That's up to you. You're making what you're making, and people are either going to like it and use it, or they aren't. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as enough people like it so that you don't go out of business.

 

Also, I just want to point out that, just because your Kaidan gets 'sploded 2/3's of the way through the game doesn't mean you didn't romance him. You had the opportunity to develop a relationship with him up to that point, and then you made a call. That's how it should work (in that regard -- not in the "all I can do is turn him down or pounce on him" regard). As you quite nicely pointed out, just because one person's idea of romance is to reach the gates of Boinkville doesn't mean that gets to define romance in games. Yes, it takes work and resources to give it some variety, but you don't have to just make it into a buffet. Again, you don't have to please every single person, ever. And, honestly, I think not actively displeasing another huge group of people to the point of facepalming is kind of on up there with not displeasing those people who wanted to just be able to have a Burger King romance (they want it THEIR way, :) ).

 

And finally, on to the binary love-o-meter options. Those are silly. I realize in a game like ME, with full voice-acting, it's really tough to write a bunch of different "arcs," so to speak, for a given character's relationship options, but not so much in a game without all that. This is still where these games fail, I say. Honestly, to hell with anyone who just wants to have a completely isolated "Oh good, that regular gameplay and plot was getting in the way of my romance-building minigame time." Not that there's anything wrong with just liking that type of gameplay, but there's something wrong with objectively designing a game with that in mind. It shouldn't be "important stuff, important stuff, important stuff, IM chat with your love interest for a few hours before going to bed, back to important stuff, etc."

 

I will say that the mass effect stuff, for the most part, at least did pretty well with having you get to know your crew really well. But, THEN, it still awkwardly leapt to "We know each other pretty well now... WE DOIN' THIS OR WHAT?!"

 

An RPG is first and foremost about your character's part in the world and the narrative, not just arbitrarily about what all random, sandboxy stuff you can do in complete isolation from anything else in the game world. Especially those with already established non-sandbox gameplay. So, if you're going to work in romance, it needs to feel like it's just a part of what's already going on.

 

Look at factions. You want them to like you, right? You choose them, in a fashion, and you try to get on their good side, etc. But, I've never seen a "hey, just give me random gift items out of your inventory, and we'll eventually let you join us and share all our awesome stuff with you and be your best friend! 8D" Usually it's your decisions in relation to the plot that affect faction rep. "Hey, I know these people want their magical idol back, but if you screw them over and bring it to us, instead, we would owe you one." Etc. You're not just arbitrarily running a minigame that has nothing to do with anything but your direct relationship with that faction. You're both tied to the over-arching story, and the state of the world, etc.

 

And, along those lines, you really shouldn't have identical tracks with all the romanceables. Maybe one character is extremely reserved (think Boone, in FO:NV), and the most you're going to get from them is half of what you'll get out of someone else. That's where Bioware started going really, really bad. They put more emphasis on "Let's offer a buffet," and tried to balance romance. WTF? Seriously. "Oh, let's arbitrarily force in every type of person imaginable." As if budget limitations, etc. leading to 73 different flavors of romance somehow equals discrimination.

 

Romance is just another part of the story. Any given character already has a personality that's been written for them, a way of thinking and doing things, a set of beliefs, etc. That's what all their actions and reactions are based on, in the game. I know it's all coded, but it's organized to simulate decisions being made by a person with particular beliefs, feelings, history, psychology, etc. So, romance shouldn't be any different. Depending on someone's role in the plot at any given point, it might even be that, your choice to become really close with one of your party members leads to one of those "I care about you so much, I'm going to leave in the middle of the night to go try to take care of something myself because I think I'm keeping you safe" situations, for example. Things like that. It's not just "Okay, we're nearing the final boss... do we do it, or don't we?" It's not just "do we chat intimately in our free time, or don't we?" It shouldn't be a separate, "we're shooting t-shirts into the crowd at a sports game for people who like free stuff" thing that's just welded onto the rest of the game.

 

It should be treated no differently than any other character/world/story design is. I have yet to see any developer even attempt such an approach.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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In the spirit of this topic, PieSnatcher... I just want to tell you that you have beautiful ayes. 6_u

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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The problem is, different people have different opinions of how they want their character to act in a relationship, and probably stronger opinions than they have of other decisions their characters might make, and thus romances are gonna end up sucking for a large percentage of players unless an even larger amount of resources are pumped into them.

How did it suck? In your example, your FemShep was (minorly) defined by your refusal to lower her standards. You weren't given a CHASTITY Achievement or whatever it is that gamers seem to be obsessed with collecting, but the fact that you made that choice was only possible because there was a choice there for you to refuse to accept.

 

Instead of feeling locked out with respect to content, I'd argue it'd be a chance to - sometime down the line - create a different character who would embrace different choices.

 

First time through DA:O I didn't save Sten because my character couldn't forgive his blatant murder. Second time through, I had a character who was more sympathetic and saved him. In both cases the choice for the character were valid; did I miss out on stuff not having Sten? Sure. But I was still able to play my character my way.*

 

*in as much as the game allowed within its framework, of course.

Edited by Amentep
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