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Lephys is right Stun, we know that Romance is not necessary. But it enhances the interaction between party members

AGAIN, that is only true if the dev team is void of writing talent and are unable to explore the vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication...and, you know, other human emotions. I hate to repeatedly cite Bioware (because they're hardly the only guilty party) but, again, they have evolved to the point where they must use Romance as a crutch, because they are not able to create deep, engaging NPCs without it.

 

And Exhibit A of this is Dragon Age 2. the 4 party members that aren't romances are: 1) Your Sibling, 2)Aveline, 3)Varric, and 4) Sebastion. All 4 of them have remarkably dull plotlines, and despite the fact that their occasional one-liners can be humorous and flavor-full, there's simply nothing to those NPCs. On the other hand, the Romanceable NPCs are far deeper and much more engaging. This is not a coincidence, and DA2 is hardly an exception to the rule.

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Lephys is right Stun, we know that Romance is not necessary. But it enhances the interaction between party members

AGAIN, that is only true if the dev team is void of writing talent and are unable to explore the vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication...and, you know, other human emotions. I hate to repeatedly cite Bioware (because they're hardly the only guilty party) but, again, they have evolved to the point where they must use Romance as a crutch, because they are not able to create deep, engaging NPCs without it.

 

And Exhibit A of this is Dragon Age 2. the 4 party members that aren't romances are: 1) Your Sibling, 2)Aveline, 3)Varric, and 4) Sebastion. All 4 of them have remarkably dull plotlines, and despite the fact that their occasional one-liners can be humorous and flavor-full, there's simply nothing to those NPCs. On the other hand, the Romanceable NPCs are far deeper and much more engaging. This is not a coincidence, and DA2 is hardly an exception to the rule.

 

 

I hear you and I don't think you are completely wrong with your criticism of DA2 Romance

But that's why I am very keen to see how Romance is done in DA:I, be honest Stun you can't tell me you aren't just a little excited to see the Romance arcs in DA:I ?


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Now you spend many nights around a campfire reflecting on the days trials..why wouldn't Romance flourish or at least be a consideration ?

 

Are you joking? Out of the question. I must be the leader for my group and I cant allow myself that weakness. Also, if there was romance between me and another of the group, it would break the group apart. Not good.

 

Integrity of the group is going to translate to better chances of surviving, which is important as you mentioned, and far more important in a situation like that than a little love.

Edited by Sheikh

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Now you spend many nights around a campfire reflecting on the days trials..why wouldn't Romance flourish or at least be a consideration ?

 

Are you joking? Out of the question. I must be the leader for my group and I cant allow myself that weakness. Also, if there was romance between me and another of the group, it would break the group apart. Not good.

 

Integrity of the group is going to translate to better chances of surviving, which is important as you mentioned, and far more important in a situation like that than a little love.

 

 

No, I'm not joking at all

 

I'm surprised you think its usual for people to seek succour through an emotional or physical connection with someone else in times of hardship...or when they know tomorrow may be there last day on this earth?


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Now you spend many nights around a campfire reflecting on the days trials..why wouldn't Romance flourish or at least be a consideration ?

 

Are you joking? Out of the question. I must be the leader for my group and I cant allow myself that weakness. Also, if there was romance between me and another of the group, it would break the group apart. Not good.

 

Integrity of the group is going to translate to better chances of surviving, which is important as you mentioned, and far more important in a situation like that than a little love.

 

 

No, I'm not joking at all

 

I'm surprised you think its usual for people to seek succour through an emotional or physical connection with someone else in times of hardship...or when they know tomorrow may be there last day on this earth?

 

 

If the romantic partner in question is an equal to you in your adventuring party...the 3rd, 4th and 5th person in the party are going to be put under psychological stress by the development of this romance and thereby the group becomes less integral.

 

Yes, it is good for you and your romantic partner emotionally. But not for the rest of the group.

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Now you spend many nights around a campfire reflecting on the days trials..why wouldn't Romance flourish or at least be a consideration ?

 

Are you joking? Out of the question. I must be the leader for my group and I cant allow myself that weakness. Also, if there was romance between me and another of the group, it would break the group apart. Not good.

 

Integrity of the group is going to translate to better chances of surviving, which is important as you mentioned, and far more important in a situation like that than a little love.

 

 

No, I'm not joking at all

 

I'm surprised you think its usual for people to seek succour through an emotional or physical connection with someone else in times of hardship...or when they know tomorrow may be there last day on this earth?

 

 

If the romantic partner in question is an equal to you in your adventuring party...the 3rd, 4th and 5th person in the party are going to be put under psychological stress by the development of this romance and thereby the group becomes less integral.

 

Yes, it is good for you and your romantic partner emotionally. But not for the rest of the group.

 

Threesome ? Or group orgies :sweat:


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Perhaps a modder will add in some camp followers that the promancers can ply with sweet words and various gifts acquired from exotic ruins? :cat: Like a saucy young barmaid bravely rescued from a burning pub.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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AGAIN, that is only true if the dev team is void of writing talent and are unable to explore the vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication...and, you know, other human emotions.

I don't understand why a romantic relationship is somehow outside the "vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication."

 

It's like you're saying "They don't need to put whips in the game to have interesting weapons, as long as they put all the OTHER weapons that aren't whips into the game."

 

I mean, it's true, but, why would we specifically want to make sure that one weapon type WASN'T in the game, in the interest of weapon variety?

 

And, by all means, cite the crap out of Bioware. It's not as if ONE of these has to be true:

 

A) Bioware makes the most incredibly flawless, amazing utilizations of romance in the universe. OR

B) Romance is inherently stupid and only makes game characters relatively better when they already suck.

 

@Bruce, he has every right to not be at all excited or curious to see how DA:I's romantic elements turn out, because, while not 100% bad, Bioware has had a pretty bad track record lately. I think the biggest problem is that Bioware still treats it as this hugely optional afterthought of a thing. I mean, sure, they put a lot of technical effort into it. But it always kinda feels less like a persistent character's reactivity to your decisions for your character, and more like the difference between maxing lockpick (or some equivalent) and unlocking lots of extra goodies, versus just ignoring the lockpick skill. *shrug*.

 

Personally, I want to see a game in which romance is just a component of people in the game world, and it affects different situations and such in the actual narrative. Most games FAR too often focus on how romance options affect all your free time. "LOLZ, I give you prezentz and stoof! Lez dew eeet!" With little "Love-o-meters" and all that jazz. I mean, it's written better than that, at least (just the dialogue itself), and it's all wrapped up in a pretty package. But, at it's core, it's far too simplistic. It feels like maybe some of these games believe that "If you love me, you'll steal shyte all the time, 'cause I'm a Rogue and that's what I like!" = tough, engaging decisions and effects on the world outside your relationship with a given character. Oh, you still aren't going to steal everything? Well then... LOVE-O-METER, DECREASED! It's that simple. When everything's divided into purely positive and negative effects, you've done it wrong right off the bat.

 

Annnnnnywho... I'm starting to ramble. We've been over this stuff before in oodles of threads, so I'll stop now, 8P

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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AGAIN, that is only true if the dev team is void of writing talent and are unable to explore the vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication...and, you know, other human emotions.

I don't understand why a romantic relationship is somehow outside the "vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication."

 

I'm pretty sure I never said it was. I'm pretty sure my point - which you missed on cue - was that there's a vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication, and a wide variety of emotions other than love, but Bioware writers only ever explore Romance. Because it is a crutch to them. They are incapable of going deep with anything else. Edited by Stun

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AGAIN, that is only true if the dev team is void of writing talent and are unable to explore the vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication...and, you know, other human emotions.

I don't understand why a romantic relationship is somehow outside the "vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication."

 

I'm pretty sure I never said it was. I'm pretty sure my point - which you missed on cue - was that there's a vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication, and a wide variety of emotions other than love, but Bioware writers only ever explore Romance. Because it is a crutch to them. They are incapable of going deep with anything else.

 

 

Stun can you answer my previous question, I can  accept you may not be excited about the Romance implementation in DA:I but aren't you at least curious ?


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Bruce, I'm not the least bit curious about DA:I period, never mind the NPCs in it.

 

I have better things to do this holiday season than waste time on a sequel to the worst game I've ever played.

Edited by Stun
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Bruce, I'm not the least bit curious about DA:I period, never mind the NPCs in it.

 

I have better things to do this holiday season than waste time on a sequel to the worst game I've ever played.

Fair enough, you do realize that Bioware has tried very hard to improve DA:I on almost all levels ( and I assume that will include Romance ) and it has been receiving mostly favourable reviews?


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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LOL A con artist who smiles humbly and says: "Yesterday I was lying, but today I'm telling the truth, please trust me!" deserves no consideration whatsoever.

 

And if I were you, I wouldn't trust these pre-release reviews either. These are the same organizations that that gave DA2 near perfect scores before it was released. Remember when Escapist called DA2 "the RPG of the Decade"? Remember when PC gamer gave it a 94 and exclaimed: "Best RPG combat ever"?

 

No thanks. I'll wait until about April of next year, and then I'll see what the gamers themselves have to say about it on Metacritic. If it gets a 9.0 or higher, then maybe I'll entertain the notion of picking up a copy....assuming, of course, that I'm quite through with Witcher 3 and POE.

Edited by Stun
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Bruce, I'm not the least bit curious about DA:I period, never mind the NPCs in it.

 

I have better things to do this holiday season than waste time on a sequel to the worst game I've ever played.

Fair enough, you do realize that Bioware has tried very hard to improve DA:I on almost all levels ( and I assume that will include Romance ) and it has been receiving mostly favourable reviews?

 

DA2 has a score of 82 on metacritic from the critics; a high score doesn't mean it will be well received by most players. (Note that I'm part of the 27% who actually enjoyed DA2.)

 

I didn't find the 'romance' options in DA2 the least bit compelling. I think they would have done better to skip those and focus on improving the rest of the game.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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Bruce, I'm not the least bit curious about DA:I period, never mind the NPCs in it.

 

I have better things to do this holiday season than waste time on a sequel to the worst game I've ever played.

Fair enough, you do realize that Bioware has tried very hard to improve DA:I on almost all levels ( and I assume that will include Romance ) and it has been receiving mostly favourable reviews?

AAA+ games always have good reviews. The more money was put into a game, the higher the review scores.

 

Also, Bioware is not really prone to improving itself. They try to entertain, make entertaining story, entertaining characters... opposed to something really good, really outstanding. Sometimes Bioware succeeds at providing entertainment, but it's no surprise they never become truly amazing. For that one has to reach for the stars and Bioware is pretty comfortable with their level now.

 

Plus, with this many fans this is all they have to do to be financially successful. Provide story, provide choices, provide romances and they're good to go. If you want a high budget story-based RPG you can't be picky, that's just reality. Hell, I myself will buy DA:I and God knows how little love I have for Bioware and their games.

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AAA+ games always have good reviews. The more money was put into a game, the higher the review scores.

Yep. This is true. And in those rare instances when a review is lukewarm despite the Hollywood level marketing and money being spent on the game, a giant red flag should pop up - that the game will probably be really really bad.

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-11-11-dragon-age-inquisition-review

 

^Eurogamer. They give DA:I an 80, which is an above average score, but the review itself is rather scathing, considering the altitude of the situation here. We are talking about a major release from one of the biggest game publishers in the world. And here's some of what is said about it:

 

About the early game MMO-like questing:

The first hour of a game is a bad, bad time for it to be resorting to this crap.

 

About the strategic depth, choice and consequence:

None of this is remotely deep or strategic. When asked if a situation calls for diplomacy, spies or military strength, any of them will work and few require any more effort on your part than actively not declaring "Zhu Li, do the thing!" at an unlistening monitor.

 

[...]

 

This is all especially notable because the whole concept, and your position at its head, feels like it was invented specifically to offer interesting moral choices and difficult decisions. Very rarely though are you given a choice whether the best option isn't obvious, and I can't think of a single one that rebounded in an interesting way later on. There's nothing wrong with classic heroic fantasy and do-gooding of course, but here the shades of grey are notable by their absence rather than their intrigue, especially in the wake of other recent offerings like The Witcher 2 and Game of Thrones, where decisions constantly have huge implications. Here, everything remains insular, confined to its own bit of the story rather than being intertwined and paying off when you least expect it. At least, unless I was just unlucky.

And, <ahem> attention Bruce </ahem> About that NPC interaction, depth, and that 'camaraderie' feel:

I had to go out of my way to even say hello. I'd have made an exception and brought Varric along on quests even though I didn't need a rogue, but he and Leliana (now your spymistress rather than a party member) have gone through the same thing as Anders, with much of their humour surgically removed between sequels. Leliana in particular is barely recognisable as the bard who was once up for a foursome with Isabella the pirate queen, and the ambient dialogue in general never got close to the zip of Dragon Age 2's banter or the squabbling between Morrigan and Alistair. BioWare games usually do a great job of making your group feel like family. Here, they were assets.

So...what do you say, Bruce. Are you looking forward to romancing an asset? Edited by Stun

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AAA+ games always have good reviews. The more money was put into a game, the higher the review scores.

Yep. This is true. And in those rare instances when a review is lukewarm despite the Hollywood level marketing and money being spent on the game, a giant red flag should pop up - that the game will probably be really really bad.

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-11-11-dragon-age-inquisition-review

 

^Eurogamer. They give DA:I an 80, which is an above average score, but the review itself is rather scathing, considering the altitude of the situation here. We are talking about a major release from one of the biggest game publishers in the world. And here's some of what is said about it:

 

About the early game MMO-like questing:

The first hour of a game is a bad, bad time for it to be resorting to this crap.

 

About the strategic depth, choice and consequence:

None of this is remotely deep or strategic. When asked if a situation calls for diplomacy, spies or military strength, any of them will work and few require any more effort on your part than actively not declaring "Zhu Li, do the thing!" at an unlistening monitor.

 

[...]

 

This is all especially notable because the whole concept, and your position at its head, feels like it was invented specifically to offer interesting moral choices and difficult decisions. Very rarely though are you given a choice whether the best option isn't obvious, and I can't think of a single one that rebounded in an interesting way later on. There's nothing wrong with classic heroic fantasy and do-gooding of course, but here the shades of grey are notable by their absence rather than their intrigue, especially in the wake of other recent offerings like The Witcher 2 and Game of Thrones, where decisions constantly have huge implications. Here, everything remains insular, confined to its own bit of the story rather than being intertwined and paying off when you least expect it. At least, unless I was just unlucky.

And, <ahem> attention Bruce </ahem> About that NPC interaction, depth, and that 'camaraderie' feel:

I had to go out of my way to even say hello. I'd have made an exception and brought Varric along on quests even though I didn't need a rogue, but he and Leliana (now your spymistress rather than a party member) have gone through the same thing as Anders, with much of their humour surgically removed between sequels. Leliana in particular is barely recognisable as the bard who was once up for a foursome with Isabella the pirate queen, and the ambient dialogue in general never got close to the zip of Dragon Age 2's banter or the squabbling between Morrigan and Alistair. BioWare games usually do a great job of making your group feel like family. Here, they were assets.

So...what do you say, Bruce. Are you looking forward to romancing an asset?

 

 

I'll have to play DA:I before I comment, that's the only way you should only ever start pass judgement on any game....first hand experience, then its informed :geek:

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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^Eurogamer. They give DA:I an 80, which is an above average score, but the review itself is rather scathing

 

I have noticed eurogamer do that before.

 

I think overall games journalism is just corrupt. It has been becoming more and more corrupt for at least a decade and most of it is still becoming more corrupt.

Edited by Sheikh

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I'm pretty sure I never said it was. I'm pretty sure my point - which you missed on cue - was that there's a vast, vast pool of interpersonal communication, and a wide variety of emotions other than love, but Bioware writers only ever explore Romance. Because it is a crutch to them. They are incapable of going deep with anything else.

Okay, sorry. I actually got that point, I jut mistakenly thought there was more to it than that. So it's a crutch for Bioware, but isn't inherently a crutch just because it's romance? Again, because this is all text, I'm going to clarify that I'm just genuinely asking, here.

 

LOL A con artist who smiles humbly and says: "Yesterday I was lying, but today I'm telling the truth, please trust me!" deserves no consideration whatsoever.

 

And if I were you, I wouldn't trust these pre-release reviews either. These are the same organizations that that gave DA2 near perfect scores before it was released. Remember when Escapist called DA2 "the RPG of the Decade"? Remember when PC gamer gave it a 94 and exclaimed: "Best RPG combat ever"?

 

No thanks. I'll wait until about April of next year, and then I'll see what the gamers themselves have to say about it on Metacritic. If it gets a 9.0 or higher, then maybe I'll entertain the notion of picking up a copy....assuming, of course, that I'm quite through with Witcher 3 and POE.

Fair enough. I'm actually getting the game, partially because I just want something else to play on my PS4, and partially because I'm a bit more optimistic than you are (which, hey, no one's required to be optimistic, and especially not after DA2, heh).

 

But, yeah, I also don't expect it to be the greatest game ever. Just, to put it simply, if I an enjoy the actual act of playing it for a few hours at a time, I can call a game "bad" for plenty of other things and still enjoy it.

 

Heck, I don't even think Borderlands is that great of a game, but it's fun as crap to play with a friend. It's just pure "what we're doing is fun right now," and not "Man, this is the PINNACLE of game design and narrative excellence!"

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I'll have to play DA:I before I comment, that's the only way you should only ever start pass judgement on any game....first hand experience, then its informed geek.gif

Aaw, that's positively adorable!

 

I was once all wide-eyed and naïve like that. After all, it's just a game, right. No one ever got burned by being fair and objective, right? So the best approach is always: 'Benefit of the doubt', "keep an open mind", 'play first judge later' etc.

 

Yeah, that works. Until you actually get burned, and then the real lesson hits you: you instinctively recall that not only did you ignore the warning signs and block out all the *reality* that was being shown to you in the pre-release review videos, but you eagerly gave Bioware $60 and virtually begged them to scew you over.

 

No, Bruce. The evidence is ALL OVER the place. There's gameplay footage. No one is going in blind so there's no reason to withhold judgement. Anyone who sees one of these gameplay videos immediately recognizes the nauseating cartoonish artstyle that ruined DA2. The silly turbo-charged combat, completely UNCHANGED from DA2. the Ugly, Las Vegas-like Neon lights UI. The uninspired "collect 10 of this item and turn them in" quests, which according to the reviews, completely litter this game.

 

They did not learn a damn thing from the world wide criticism of DA2. Basically all they seem to have done is take DA2, plug it into a new engine and stretch it out so that it feels like an open world. So instead of 60 hours of mind-numbing crap, they're giving us 120 hours of mind-numbing crap.

 

I'll pass.

Edited by Stun
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I wouldn't mind seeing some cRPGs develop an interesting and platonic interpersonal relationship with a side kick, somewhat comparable to those in the old Legend of Hercules or Xena: Warrior Princess TV series.


"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I wouldn't mind seeing some cRPGs develop an interesting and platonic interpersonal relationship with a side kick, somewhat comparable to those in the old Legend of Hercules or Xena: Warrior Princess TV series.

 

Yes that would be cool, that would obviously not be romance though.

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Yes that would be cool, that would obviously not be romance though.

Someone didn't watch enough Xena. :)

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Ah, Xena. Yeah something like that wandering around with a companion would be awesome, even if there were no love interest, or if the love interest only existed for one or two particular combinations of your PC. One of the most annoying things I've found in many games is when the romance is literally just one dialogue choice (*Cough* Witcher 1 *cough*) and hey presto, romance happens. Seriously, if you're going to do that you're better off just throwing in a brothel.

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Yes that would be cool, that would obviously not be romance though.

Someone didn't watch enough Xena. :)

 

 

So Xena and her sidekick actually romantically loved each other the whole time?

 

Either way, Pillars pls we want to recreate Xena ingame.

Edited by Sheikh

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