Save scumming

[JFSOCC]

 

 

 

I do wonder what an RPG with an auto-save system (without being able to make saves yourself) would be like.

Shadowrun Returns uses a checkpoint save system if you haven't tried it yet.

 

Shadowrun Returns is a nice enough game, but players consider the checkpoint saves to be one of the major faults. Once you proceed to the next level you can't redo your choices. One clusterf*ck and you may need to replay an entire level or be seriously gimped if the mission has multiple levels. Choose the wrong companions or bring the wrong consumables and at best: play the same level again and again until you succeed, or at worst: you need to restart the whole game.

 

Personally I'm fine with it... it's more fun to me to have to live with your choices and for them to mean something..... and for there to be a bit of tension in the game...

If you have to save scum then the game is too hard and the save scumming is an infinite lives cheat. (baldurs gate at level 1)... shadowrun was a bit on the easy side if anything..it would have been way too easy if you could save anywhere.

 

and what is the point of ever even having a fail condition to anything if you can just keep doing it again till you succeed? might as well play skyrim and never fail at anything....

 

I think the main way to prevent save scumming is from having failure not be immediately apparent.

 

For instance, you need to quietly infiltrate a mansion, steal valuables, retreat. During the quest, you are spotted, you kill the guard, but fail to hide the body.

While you can still complete the quest, later on, the body which you have left on the crime scene leads back to your organisation, having stolen the items no longer matters, it's over.

 

But you only find out that you failed after quest completion. Your game isn't over, but your progression with said faction is. too bad.

 

If you add failure as a normal outcome, I think there would be a lot less save scumming. especially since if you do this in style, even such a defeat can seem like a natural outcome, rather than quest failure needing an instant reload.

 

You don't even always need to tell the player why they failed. Let them figure it out themselves. THAT is what leads to replayability.

[forgottenlor]

A save game system has to be so good that it doesn't force you to replay large portions of the game, simpy because you fail. This is I think many peoples problem with Shadowrun Returns is.  If the game makes you live with a choice, that doesn't relate to replaying large chunks of the game, but forks out the narrative, then I think its ok if you don't get to save, that leads to replayability. Free saving isn't perfect, but very few games without free saving do a good job of making fix save points add to the atmosphere of the game rather than be an annoyance.

Edited November 10, 2013 by forgottenlor

[Valsuelm]

Ahhh early BG1. Who didn't love the party being decimated by mooks with weak ranged weapons or a random wolf. I can't think of a better argument for starting at level 3 than BG1 early gameplay.

 

While I can see this happening to a new player to the genre or to AD&D, it's possible to go a long way before dying in BG1 if you play it well and safe.... past level 3 even.

 

Party formation and how you move them around has a lot to do with it in that game.

 

Granted, most games are easy mode compared to BG1, so most would not expect the unforgivable aspects of the combat.

 

Save scumming certainly was not an issue, excepting for the most difficult of battles. But that's the norm in any good game. Mechanics that avoid save scumming likely are dumbing down the experience.

[TrashMan]

Saved points + a single auto-save.

That way you can quit if you have to do do something wihout requireing you to re-play large portions, but trying to  cheat your way trough conversations

[teknoman2]

well in the fashion of the old IE games, there will be autosaves at every map change. if you do not want save scumming, just dont save and use only the autosaves. or even better play trial of iron where you simply cant save at all and problem solved

[Mor]

Save. Try something. Fail. Load. Try again. Win.

 

How is P:E handling this? Is this even considered an issue?

Why would that be an issue? How is your experience effected by how others play their game? It reminds me people who go self righteous about cheats codes. Which is really simple situation, if they are in you have a choice, if they are not you don't. Cut and dry. Same is here, the best and simplest solution is add a sort of IronMan mode, which will appeal to the sensibilities of those who are looking for more hardcore experience and keep the good old proven system.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Mor

[Ieo]

Rather than rehash all the oooold arguments, just visit one of the original threads and leave it at that:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61179-minimizing-save-scumming-or-is-it-too-much-of-a-hassle/

[Mor]

It might have been better to mentioned it 30 post back. Have anything been decided since?

[teknoman2]

yes. 

you can have the characters not die but stay at 1hp and play the mule until you can heal them properly (normal mode)

you can have them die and reload, or you can have them die and not reload it's up to you (expert mode)

you can have them get maimed and not be able to reload (normal + trial of iron)

you can have them die and not be able to reload (expert + trial of iron)

you choose 

[AGX-17]

Save. Try something. Fail. Load. Try again. Win.

 

How is P:E handling this? Is this even considered an issue?

 

I never cared for Diablo II's (any many games since) waypoint save but I can't think of anything better. Is it punishment enough not remembering to save before every major event?

They already used a viable alternative in NV. Besides, isn't it fundamentally your own problem if you can't resist the urge to savescum?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

While I can see this happening to a new player to the genre or to AD&D, it's possible to go a long way before dying in BG1 if you play it well and safe.... past level 3 even.

 

Party formation and how you move them around has a lot to do with it in that game.

 

Granted, most games are easy mode compared to BG1, so most would not expect the unforgivable aspects of the combat.

 

Save scumming certainly was not an issue, excepting for the most difficult of battles. But that's the norm in any good game. Mechanics that avoid save scumming likely are dumbing down the experience.

Past level 3 certainly. BG(and D&D 2, 3, and 3.5) can be very tactical at levels 3-15. However at low levels, it is luck that determines success, not player skill or character abilities.

 

Take BG1 for example, a mage will have a max of 6 HP at level 1. Even with max DEX and a casting of armor, a critical hit with a ranged weapon will drop the mage. There is no way to defend against this, at all. Thieves fare slightly better, but still can easily be killed in the early part of the game. Clerics, Druids, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers fare better, but can easily fall to a dire wolf or bear, like the one lurking around the very first map. All in all, the early levels of BG are punishing, and even good tactics will result in death by unlucky roll.

 

Now imagine starting Chapter 2 of BG at level 3. dread wolves, bears, that transvestite ogre, and bandits still can decimate a party, BUT with proper tactics the party can survive most encounters, even if a critical hit is scored.

Edited November 16, 2013 by KaineParker

[Mor]

yes. 

you can have the characters not die but stay at 1hp and play the mule until you can heal them properly (normal mode)

you can have them die and reload, or you can have them die and not reload it's up to you (expert mode)

you can have them get maimed and not be able to reload (normal + trial of iron)

you can have them die and not be able to reload (expert + trial of iron)

you choose 

Thanks for the info.

 

EDIT:on second though, using "like" was preferable than posting this post, but I don't see a delete option,so...

Edited November 16, 2013 by Mor

[Rhawkas]

I save scum. I'm not proud of it, but in some games (usually permadeath games like roguelikes and Project Zomboid) if that's what I have to do to enjoy the game then I will. It doesn't affect the games or enjoyment of the games of others, so they shouldn't have a problem with it. If you know what you are doing, then you can save scum in many instances. As long as the save file is saved locally and you have access to it then you can save scum to your heart's content. Simply copy the save file, place it somewhere safe, play the game and if something you don't want to accept happens, simply place the backup save in the save folder and overwrite the one the game made when you played last. The only way to prevent save scumming is to force the players to play online and have save data stored on a server that they can only get at to load their game when they log on to play and auto-save the game every few minutes and when they log off.

[Frenetic Pony]

A single save file helps remove save scumming.

 

Other than that consequences other than "perma game end" are the way to go, but few games get it right.

 

Baldur's Gate got it right with your party member(s) dying (Classic D&D I know). It was an abject failure and an utter pain to end a fight with one or more characters dead, you had to drag everything all the way back to a priest (at least when you were a low enough level) and pay a ton of gold to get them back up and. And it FELT like a failure, which was the point, without going into "you have to restart".

 

Fable 2 tried, and failed, at something like this with it's getting permanently scarred or whatever. The consequence wasn't bad enough though, but at least they tried. Dark Souls does a great job with this, dying is awful but coming back is "part" of the game world and lore so it works anyway. Another great example is losing your horse in Red Dead Redemption. You keep going but you just go "NO! FRAK NOOOO!" as your hard earned ultra fast horse is stolen by that bitch (only once hopefully) or eaten by a mountain lion.

 

Unfortunately Obsidian already nixed the "dead but revivable" party member thing because they wanted to change the lore. Frankly I still think it's a wonderful way of having a defeat without save scumming, and a slight originality in lore be damned. But hey that's me.

[Kjaamor]

Ahhh early BG1. Who didn't love the party being decimated by mooks with weak ranged weapons or a random wolf. I can't think of a better argument for starting at level 3 than BG1 early gameplay.

 

Dear Player,

 

Your wizard has four hit points and an armour class of 6. The Gibberling does 1-6 damage per hit. Your spells are on cooldown.

 

All my love,

 

Baldur's Gate 1

[neo6874]

 

Ahhh early BG1. Who didn't love the party being decimated by mooks with weak ranged weapons or a random wolf. I can't think of a better argument for starting at level 3 than BG1 early gameplay.

 

Dear Player,

 

Your wizard has four hit points and an armour class of 6. The Gibberling does 1-6 damage per hit. You have used your 2 Magic Missiles for today.

 

All my love,

 

Baldur's Gate 1

 

That's more like it.

[Messier-31]

 

Ahhh early BG1. Who didn't love the party being decimated by mooks with weak ranged weapons or a random wolf. I can't think of a better argument for starting at level 3 than BG1 early gameplay.

 

Dear Player,

 

Your wizard has four hit points and an armour class of 6. The Gibberling does 1-6 damage per hit. Your spells are on cooldown.

 

All my love,

 

Baldur's Gate 1

 

 

Kelso, you want to add something?

 

[Kissamies]

 

shadowrun was a bit on the easy side if anything..it would have been way too easy if you could save anywhere

 

This was true for the Dead Man's Switch and it was paced so that the limited saving usually didn't get too annoying. However, it can be wildly different with the UGC. I remember playing some early version of an adventure which had a big sandbox type area at the beginning. Talked with some interesting characters, did some mini-quests, fought some guys. Suddenly ran into some much tougher enemies and they killed me. No save, would have had to do the whole thing again...

[Lephys]

Dear Player,

 

Your wizard has four hit points and an armour class of 6. The Gibberling does 1-6 damage per hit. Your spells are on cooldown.

 

All my love,

 

Baldur's Gate 1

Hahaha. Ahhh, Tarnesh, on the steps of the Friendly Arm Inn. I was a...Level 2 Wizard? And Imoen was Lvl 2 as well, maybe? Gave her a +1 shortsword, Hid her In Shadows just out of sight of Tarnesh (after, you know... 73 attempts to Hide In Shadows), then saved (so as not to repeat those 73 attempts). What followed were about 20+ consecutive reloaded attempts to have Imoen the Invisible leap from the shadows (right behind Tarnesh), backstabbing him for ludicrous amounts of damage, while my Wizard attempted to actually connect with either Color Spray or some other such incapacitating spell.

 

Miss, resist, death... Reload. Miss, resist, death... Reload. Hit (but not enough to kill), resist, death...

 

20+ attempts later, Imoen scores a backstab critical, and Tarnesh drops like a sack of potatoes before he can even start his Latin-ish, reverberative (reverberatory?) chanting.

 

Those were the good old days.

[Silent Winter]

A single save file helps remove save scumming.

But also leads to throwing PC out the window when that save game is corrupted by something like: Crash during save; power-cut during save/play; game breaking bug; act of 3-year-old; etc

 

I always alternated through 3 save files when playing BG - not to go back and change my decisions but to reduce possibility of being unable to continue game.

Having said that - I'm not averse to reloading a tough battle a few times if I need to (ie half the party is wiped out) to improve my strategy.

[Lephys]

^ The people who want to overcome the single-save file approach are just going to find a mod and do it anyway, and/or just not even buy/play the game. Then, the people who have no interest in save-scumming to hand-pick outcomes are forced to hope that one file gets corrupted, and/or never use previous/multiple save files for anything else, ever.

 

It's pretty much a lose-lose.

[Kjaamor]

Hahaha. Ahhh, Tarnesh, on the steps of the Friendly Arm Inn. I was a...Level 2 Wizard? And Imoen was Lvl 2 as well, maybe? Gave her a +1 shortsword, Hid her In Shadows just out of sight of Tarnesh (after, you know... 73 attempts to Hide In Shadows), then saved (so as not to repeat those 73 attempts). What followed were about 20+ consecutive reloaded attempts to have Imoen the Invisible leap from the shadows (right behind Tarnesh), backstabbing him for ludicrous amounts of damage, while my Wizard attempted to actually connect with either Color Spray or some other such incapacitating spell.

 

Miss, resist, death... Reload. Miss, resist, death... Reload. Hit (but not enough to kill), resist, death...

 

20+ attempts later, Imoen scores a backstab critical, and Tarnesh drops like a sack of potatoes before he can even start his Latin-ish, reverberative (reverberatory?) chanting.

 

Those were the good old days.

 

 

I had very similar experiences with Tarnash and many of BG 1's baddies, but most of them were, to be fair, beatable with precious few saves+reloads once you knew how to approach them (as I'm sure you do now).

 

For example, Tarnash is laughable if you form a tight group just behind the wall to the stairs of the Friendly Arm (from the point where someone on the stairs can't see down) and draw Tarnash with one character into your group of three in melee (Even if you're going to drop Xzar and Monty right after the fight - which I think most parties are). Even if you've already dual-classed Imoen someone is bound to get a hit and interrupt Mirror Image. With Mirror Image Tarnash gets most of the rest of his spells interrupted.

 

The point is that I (and I'm sure Lephys, too) had to reload that several times first time around, but these days almost never have to.

[Kjaamor]

It's also worth remembering, though, that BG1 had a build in method of preventing save-scumming itself:

 

If you were in a wilderness/combat area, and you reloaded, certain low exp enemies would respawn.

 

It doesn't sound too brutal, until you realise those enemies can be - and in my experience frequently were - Hobgoblin Elite and Kobold Elites with bows and +1 arrows. If it was anyone but your tank leading the way, one volley usually meant death for at least one character. Which meant you had to reload, only now there are TWO groups of Elite Archer mobs in the way.

 

Honestly, one of the hardest battles I had in BG the first time around was getting my battered party out of the Sirine area through those mobs (the Tank started the battle with next to no hp). I think I got to the maps edge with two members dead (2000gp to raise and whatever loot you lose carrying their equipment). BG used to literally give me nightmares about stuff like that.

[Cubiq]

I don't understand why can't people who don't like save scumming just force themselves to play by their own rules.

I will probably avoid doing it, and all i need is willpower.

I'm playing BG2 ee atm with the rule set that i am not allowed to reload any save (unless the cause is a bug)

If my companion dies permenatly, that's that. And if my main char dies that's the end of that playthrough.

And it's the most fun i've had in a long time.

[Messier-31]

Hahaha. Ahhh, Tarnesh, on the steps of the Friendly Arm Inn. I was a...Level 2 Wizard? And Imoen was Lvl 2 as well, maybe? Gave her a +1 shortsword, Hid her In Shadows just out of sight of Tarnesh (after, you know... 73 attempts to Hide In Shadows), then saved (so as not to repeat those 73 attempts). What followed were about 20+ consecutive reloaded attempts to have Imoen the Invisible leap from the shadows (right behind Tarnesh), backstabbing him for ludicrous amounts of damage, while my Wizard attempted to actually connect with either Color Spray or some other such incapacitating spell.

 

Miss, resist, death... Reload. Miss, resist, death... Reload. Hit (but not enough to kill), resist, death...

 

20+ attempts later, Imoen scores a backstab critical, and Tarnesh drops like a sack of potatoes before he can even start his Latin-ish, reverberative (reverberatory?) chanting.

 

Those were the good old days.

 

Exactly, Tarnesh is the Hogger (WoW) of Forgotten Realms What? Yes, you heard me, WoW. Don't judge me, I tried WoW once and it was terrible.

 

Honestly, throwing a reasonably difficult oponents at the beginning of a story is a good thing. One should know that there is a dangerous world out there for badly prepared adventurer wannabes, so you better watch out.