Update #41: D&D: Dwarves and Doors

[rjshae]

It is interesting psychologically how some gamers can have such strong preferences with regards to dwarves, yet others find elves to be unbearably passé. Perhaps it is the beard: a masculine threat feature enhanced by length, whereas the elf is beardless. Or maybe it's the behavior: the dwarf is gruff, stubborn and aggressive, whereas the elf has perhaps more stereotypically effeminate attributes? Hmm... I'll probably get myself in trouble with this line of reasoning.

[Ieo]

It is interesting psychologically how some gamers can have such strong preferences with regards to dwarves, yet others find elves to be unbearably passé. Perhaps it is the beard: a masculine threat feature enhanced by length, whereas the elf is beardless. Or maybe it's the behavior: the dwarf is gruff, stubborn and aggressive, whereas the elf has perhaps more stereotypically effeminate attributes? Hmm... I'll probably get myself in trouble with this line of reasoning.

 

What I find funny is that Sagani is clearly not a dwarf by that guy's Tolkien-ripped standard, yet Obsidian posted Sagani as the very first concept art specifically to address the trope. I'll play neutral with whatever races/subraces Obsidian builds for PE--I'm far more interested in their lore and cultures anyway.

[Ulquiorra]

I like dwarwes, the only issu is their beards and hair in my opinion they shoud be more exotic .... currows etc (not sure if speling right)

 

I also whoud like to aumaua concepts ...

 

btw. ...

 

Why this faces have so details ? Is it realy a IE game ? or something more like NWN ? I mean if those faces are gonna be putt with view like BG then tyo much efort you put guys to is but if in PE in camera setting will be more to NWN then thats ok ...

[exodiark]

I like dwarwes, the only issu is their beards and hair in my opinion they shoud be more exotic .... currows etc (not sure if speling right)

 

I also whoud like to aumaua concepts ...

 

btw. ...

 

Why this faces have so details ? Is it realy a IE game ? or something more like NWN ? I mean if those faces are gonna be putt with view like BG then tyo much efort you put guys to is but if in PE in camera setting will be more to NWN then thats ok ...

 

It's normal for 3D artists to make a detailed model first, and then simplify them.

[Tamerlane]

Also, I'd imagine/hope that we're getting some pretty snazzy paper dolls.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Although we haven't heard from any of the devs if smashing doors and chests and shooting locks are in, my hopes have certainly risen seiing the recent video showing off Wasteland 2-gameplay. Like 8.30 into the video, a character uses Brute force on a wooden gate. I loved it!

So, here's too hoping OEI also will use a similar mechanic, because W2 obviously has a picklock skill too.

[Ywerion]

Ooh suffice to say I wouldn't mind good old sprites, but you guys, you just HAD to overdo yourselves

[Tikigod]

 

I like dwarwes, the only issu is their beards and hair in my opinion they shoud be more exotic .... currows etc (not sure if speling right)

 

I also whoud like to aumaua concepts ...

 

btw. ...

 

Why this faces have so details ? Is it realy a IE game ? or something more like NWN ? I mean if those faces are gonna be putt with view like BG then tyo much efort you put guys to is but if in PE in camera setting will be more to NWN then thats ok ...

 

It's normal for 3D artists to make a detailed model first, and then simplify them.

 

I've personally found it's the complete opposite. (For game assets, rather than static designs which are to be honest a entirely different process)

 

The concept artists may make detailed designs, either as drawings or as an actual 3D asset in Blender/3DS/Maya/Z-brush, and the style and details are reiterated until it's deemed acceptable.

 

Then the actual game assets are constructed first as low poly outlines based on the concept, and then detail is added onto a duplicate and used for baking normal/height maps (Even specular I suppose).

 

Removing detail from meshes is significantly harder than adding details, which is why I asked in a previous post in this thread if it would be possible to get some insight in the near future into why their 3D artist(s) are making high detailed designs in Z-brush and then making the low poly off of the high detail, as unless it's to compensate for lack of concept artist being free to work on race designs and instead concept designs and game asset creation is being combined into the same process.... it strikes me as rather irregular and a more time consuming process in the long run*, so it would be VERY interesting to get some insight into the mind of the artist(s) who came up with this process.

 

 

* That is unless Obsidian make development history by not having a single unexpected change arise in their designs , that isn't just a case of noticing the rise of a need to make changes and ignoring it because the existing process established is too clunky to allow the needed changes within any existing time constraints. 

Edited February 15, 2013 by Tikigod

[rjshae]

3D printer technology entry level cost is now down to c. $2,000. It would be cool if, at some point in the future, some downloadable models of PE figures became available for use with a home 3D printer.

 

Just a thought... for the future.

[Elerond]

3D printer technology entry level cost is now down to c. $2,000. It would be cool if, at some point in the future, some downloadable models of PE figures became available for use with a home 3D printer.

 

Just a thought... for the future.

 

I like this idea, of course there would be copyright issues that shoud be solved. But I woud very much like to play warhammer using 3D printed PE miniatyres :D

[bahamut_gundam]

Few things come to mind from reading this update:

 

#1

I find it rather interesting that your pipeline involves making the high poly designs in Zbrush to use in baking texture maps first, and THEN make the low poly models based on the high poly.

 

Would be interesting to hear why you've opted for this over what I feel is the more traditional 'low poly -> duplicate -> subdivide -> add details -> bake'.

 

Are the high poly creations also serving as a aspect of concept design to fully flesh out the look and feel of races before making the actual game assets for example?

 

Or perhaps your artists just find it much quicker to churn work by using a sculpting focused tool like Zbrush to make high poly designs compared to making low poly meshes from the ground up, and instead are opting for making the low poly by essentially masking it over the high poly topology (minus the extra detail geometry)?

 

 

#2

You mention that you are aiming to have one armor mesh serve across all races, and then have the proportions scale accordingly (by being married to either the mesh itself or the armature?).

 

But you don't mention what your plans are for textures for armors, with these kind of distortions to a mesh what exactly are your plans to approach texturing the different variations from the same mesh design to avoid things such as textures being stretched, and details visible and sharp in one proportion, becoming either too stretched and blurry on larger races or too insignificant and lost for smaller races? Especially when you're dealing with proportions that don't relative on all 3 axis equally! (E.G. Dwarves being short and plump, but elves being tall and slender)

 

Is it really your intent to have one armor mesh per design used for all races and body form variation, and then UV unwrap each variation one by one and texture them all individually to varying UV layouts adjusting to proportions as needed? As that sounds like a serious amount of work for your texture artists not to mention creating a lot of extra processing work for the modelers ...  

 

So any details on your plans for the texturing process to go along with the outline for the armor pipeline would be extremely interesting (at least to me anyway! lol).

 

I am also interested in the second point. Any chance that the developers can shed a light on this ?

 

Another question that came up to my mind is, reshaping and morphing one character into another doesn't sound difficult at first, but I am pretty sure there are a lot of issues that have to be tackled, not to mention how the animations should be applied later. 

Perhaps the developers can also share their approaches in doing this ?

[Absurdated]

 

Similarly I think "Fighters simply existing" can be turned around to "Rogue's simply existing". What if I don't have a Rogue to open doors for me? Why should I have a Rogue to open doors for me? Why could I not have a Wizard that has all the magical capabilities to remove the Lock from existence/disintegrate/Melt the locking mechanism with Fire Spells/Divination or whatnot? 

 

Rogues have bonuses to opening locks, but other classes can take that skill as well.  We won't include spells or abilities that make invested skills obsolete.

A wild idea: what if each class can take a skill with function [open doors], but different classes do so in different manner?.. After all, [open lock] spell may be difficult and require separate training... It may require some additional animations, but this can be a way to keep both balanced mechanic and in-game possibilities.

 

For example, there was an optional rule in D&D 3ed (Unearthed Arcana, if I remember correctly) that Intimidate skill could be used based on Strength attribute, not Charisma - intimidate in a "hard way", so to speak.

[Messier-31]

"Quickfire thought"

 

Could there be a dwarven mountain stronghold that is actually inhabited by dwarves? A small town with vendors, inns and questgivers if you will. The reason I ask is because such dwarven settlements in the past have one thing in common:

• Mithrill's Hall (Forgotten Realms in general)
• Durlag's Tower (Baldur's Gate)
• Dorn's Deep (Icewind Dale)
• Khazad-dûm (Middle-earth)
• Durgan's Battery (Pillars of Eternity)
• Karaz-a-Karak (Warhammer Fantasy)

They are all ruined, sacked and/or inhabited by evildoing evil monsters of evil evilness! I know it is cool to have dungeon crawling and climatic abandoned places but you get the picture? I mean COME ON - are dwarves really so lame they can not hold to at least some of their cities?

 

To be fair, here's the list of known thriving dwarf settlements:

• Orzammar (Dragon Age)
• Ironforge (Warcraft)

Dayum, helluva lot

[Quetzalcoatl]

You forgot the abandoned Ironfist Stronghold from NWN2.

[Bryy]

 

To be fair, here's the list of known thriving dwarf settlements:

• Orzammar (Dragon Age)
• Ironforge (Warcraft)

Orzammar was ridiculous. The outcast class set up shop right outside the doors?

 

But I do love Oghren's initial reaction to going outside for the first time.

[Caerdon]

To be fair, here's the list of known thriving dwarf settlements:

• Orzammar (Dragon Age)
• Ironforge (Warcraft)

Dayum, helluva lot

 

The Witcher series has Mahakam, practically an entire nation inhabited by Dwarwes and Gnomes. It's never been seen in the games, though.

[cornishr]

As i said already it's mostly the beard that i find lacking. It's what mostly defines a dwarf for me and different ornaments, lengths and designs are what separates one dwarf from another and gives them character. You could always recognize that this is a dwarf by it even if it's just the head that is shown.

 

As far as the model goes, the nose isn't really that big, I've see people in in real life with noses like that, same goes for brows. The

only difference is the jaw width, which might be a bit uncommon but hardly exaggerated. If they initially announced this model to be human instead of dwarf, no one would assume otherwise, and would just think that it's just a more rugged type of character (Think Hulk Hogan). This is why a distinct beard is required.

 

Now you can claim that a heavily bearded dwarf is just stereotyping and that it's better if it's something different, but how is looking more like a human really different?

You take away it's dwarven characteristics, it's beard ornaments, that could describe it's history or clan or whatever lore they will have, and you replace it with typical human features.

If that's fine than why not just give human model a height and width slider at the creation screen and you'll get the same effect?

 

EDIT:

Actually never mind, you win, I can't be bothered to talk about this anymore since art is subjective and it's really just my point of view, i already posted the model design that i think looks cool and it's up to obsidian to decide what to make of it.

I quite agree with you!

 

I've always loved the stereotypical warhammer dwarf with his big beard. Those dwarves in the update look like they're wearing fake stuck on beards to be honest.

[Mor]

"Quickfire thought"

 

Could there be a dwarven mountain stronghold that is actually inhabited by dwarves? A small town with vendors, inns and questgivers if you will. The reason I ask is because such dwarven settlements in the past have one thing in common:

• Mithrill's Hall (Forgotten Realms in general)
• Durlag's Tower (Baldur's Gate)
• Dorn's Deep (Icewind Dale)
• Khazad-dûm (Middle-earth)
• Durgan's Battery (Pillars of Eternity)
• Karaz-a-Karak (Warhammer Fantasy)

They are all ruined, sacked and/or inhabited by evildoing evil monsters of evil evilness! I know it is cool to have dungeon crawling and climatic abandoned places but you get the picture? I mean COME ON - are dwarves really so lame they can not hold to at least some of their cities?

 

The closest we have is Durgan's Battery, it's not the Mithral Halls, but it is home of the fabled Durgan steel, which making was lost.

 

I've always loved the stereotypical warhammer dwarf with his big beard. Those dwarves in the update look like they're wearing fake stuck on beards to be honest.

So far we only seen boreal dwarfs, no info on the mountain or other variety. So it quite possible that we will see a subrace of such whacky dwarfs, which are iconic to the genre, IMO the devs wouldn't strip them, no more then they would magic missiles or fireballs..

 

Though I would really love a little clarification on Dwarfs which atm seem like small Human that isn't quite an Orlan :/

[Messier-31]

The Witcher series has Mahakam, practically an entire nation inhabited by Dwarwes and Gnomes. It's never been seen in the games, though.

 

True, and as a matter of fact I forgot about Vergen in The Witcher 2.

 

I've always loved the stereotypical warhammer dwarf with his big beard. Those dwarves in the update look like they're wearing fake stuck on beards to be honest.

 

High five!