Unofficial P.E. Relationship/Romance Thread pt.2

[LadyCrimson]

Previous Thread

 

The purpose of this thread is to provide a central place for all the romantics (and unromantics) out there to be able to continue discussions and debate the possibility of there being romances (or other complex relationships) in Project Eternity.

 

Some potential example points of discussion (but not limited to):

 

---what type of dynamic, complex character relationships are important to your gaming experience, if any?

---if you enjoy romances in games, what type of plots do you enjoy or dislike (tragic, happy ending, marriage/family)?

---what romance or relationship arcs from other games did you personally enjoy that can serve as examples?

---do you have any particular, preferred game mechanics for romance/relationships that you'd like to see included (optional questlines, dialogue, cutscenes)?

---what, even, is romance (to you)?

 

 

I'd like to remind members that while differing opinions and viewpoints are expected and welcome, trolling with purposeful intent to derail is not looked upon with favor. Try to play nice in the sandbox.

[SeekDWay]

I'm all in for Romance options, I don't see how this will hurt the game experience for anyone.

 

HOWEVER, I don't support simplified get-go unrealistic romance (read harem) options. Just because I have a NPC of the opposite gender in my party it doesn't mean that this character's sole reason for existense should be defined by my ego stroking urges.

 

I totally want there to be romance options in the game and while I did like some of the romance options in BG2, I think that if there is such an option in PE it should be closer to what Planescape had. When you are nearing the end of the game or a party member's personal story arc, when you have invested a lot of time into understanding this chracter and have formed a bound with him/her only then should that option be possible.

 

I don't want a Date Tycoon game, I want a mature and intelligently writen story where forming a relationship with a certain character feels like reading a good book rather than getting to the next checkpoint in Super Mario.

 

Romances should be the ending branch of a NPCs character, the optional finishing touch to the relationship between the PC and the character in question.

 

-Repost

 

Romance doesn't have to be centered around the player, for example BG2 had Keldorn, who had a family with their own dramas and a short quest chain to sharpen them. Having party members with families and lovers or even a little bit of spice within the party would be nice and most likely will be less taxing for MCA and the team.

Edited October 19, 2012 by SeekDWay

[evdk]

How about locking the old one and never opening another? Sanity might prevail.

[Ieo]

OMG, LadyCrimson.

 

I'll just quote myself from the other thread and skip the long-windedness.

 

 

It (wide gradient of human emotion) does (matter), which is why my proposed mechanical solution for perfectly parallel and exclusive "Y" paths covers everything.

 

Main branch: get-to-know-you

Left branch: romance

Right branch: bromance

 

Huzzah! No one ever gets more content than the other and both paths are equally deep, meaningful, and immersive.

 

 

There is definitely a resource limitation (the 2-3 months per companion bit cited from the interview), which is why fully parallel paths probably aren't possible.

 

If we're looking at a "Y" implementation, then that means the main trunk of content at the bottom there should take up the majority of a companion's writing--like over 70% or whatever--and either of the later branches less since the work would be doubled at that particular point.

 

 

 

 

omg XD

Edited October 19, 2012 by Ieo

[Malcador]

How about locking the old one and never opening another? Sanity might prevail.

 

Hope is but the first step on the road to disappointment.

[Meshugger]

Will i be able to be a bard and enchant women to do my bidding through my wonderful singing? Playing as a manwhore is very relevant to my roleplaying interests.

[rjshae]

This love (thread) will never die.

[evdk]

Will i be able to be a bard and enchant women to do my bidding through my wonderful singing? Playing as a manwhore is very relevant to my roleplaying interests.

Only if there is also an ability to enslave nations with necromancy.

[Rahelron]

How about locking the old one and never opening another? Sanity might prevail.

 

Nice passive aggressive kung fu. Do you have other tricks up your sleeve? (cit.)

[LadyCrimson]

How about locking the old one and never opening another? Sanity might prevail.

The topic is bound to come up again as new members swing by ... having a central thread for it, that people can point to, seems a logical path.

[evdk]

How about locking the old one and never opening another? Sanity might prevail.

 

Nice passive aggressive kung fu. Do you have other tricks up your sleeve? (cit.)

Oh, so you have the updated version of evdk.txt - well done!

[kenup]

Merrill (DA2), Tali (Mass Effect)

Ok now you are trolling. I ignore the other two, but with these ones no one with a brain should take you seriously.

Edited October 19, 2012 by kenup

[Meshugger]

Will i be able to be a bard and enchant women to do my bidding through my wonderful singing? Playing as a manwhore is very relevant to my roleplaying interests.

Only if there is also an ability to enslave nations with necromancy.

 

Combine both and we have a bold and daring game. The necrophiliac bard that had the largest harem ever known in an RPG.

[Sylvanpyxie]

---what type of dynamic, complex character relationships are important to your gaming experience, if any?

I honestly believe a range of interactive relationships with NPCs and Party Companions are relatively essential in an RPG like Project Eternity.

 

Interactions between a Player and NPCs are going to happen, they're an essential part of an Party-Based RPG, and you're obviously going to spend more time with certain NPCs than others. Without deeper interactions and greater relationships between the Player and their Party Characters, the "Companions" would remain nothing but cardboard cut-outs, existing simply to assist the Player in whatever misadventure they've stepped into.

 

I certainly wouldn't have felt as strongly about Shandra, in Neverwinter Nights 2, and her death if I hadn't gotten the chance of build a deeper emotional connection with her - She showed interest and concern for my Character and offered not only her friendship, but her unyielding trust and eventually her life. If she hadn't engaged in such dialogue with me, I would not have even noticed her passing and as a result, that entire plot line would have felt hollow and empty.

 

Deeper interactions, with Party Companions at the very least, make NPCs greater assets, both in terms of story and in terms of the Player's emotional attachment. Whether the relationship in question is begrudging respect, borderline contempt and disdain or never-ending trust and friendship, each relationship has it's place and each relationship is essential in creating an emotional connection between the Player and their Party.

 

I personally love to have a range of relationships available to me - Be it a building conflict of interests that leads to a relatively contemptuous relationship, or an open and honest relationship that leads to a great camaraderie, or even a shady relationship between suspicious fellows with little to no trust and constantly questioned loyalties. Do I believe romance should also play a role among companion relationships? Perhaps, but I'll go into it further into my post.

 

---if you enjoy romances in games, what type of plots do you enjoy or dislike (tragic, happy ending, marriage/family)?

I'm very much an all-rounder in terms of things like this - If it's well written and handled with care and attention I will tend to enjoy it, regardless of the tone that it has.

 

As a Female Player I liked Bishop's relationship and his conclusion in Neverwinter Nights 2, I get into a lot of arguments about the state of his "romantic content", primarily because Bishop's romance was "cut". Regardless of what people think of his romantic state, Bishop undeniably has an interest in a Female Player and flirted almost relentlessly. I enjoyed his personality and plot, I found his angry bitterness to be a refreshing change of pace from the endless "White Knights" that I happened across in RPGs, and his inability to open up or admit vulnerability made him compelling. The "conclusion" to the relationship with Bishop finishes with friendly dialogue, not romantic dialogue, and then carries over in Mask of the Betrayer. Both the ending of Neverwinter Nights 2 and Mask of the Betrayer are ultimately tragic, and well suited to Bishop's character.

 

On the flip side, I can also enjoy fulfilling conclusions that don't end in betrayal, abandonment, maiming or death.

 

--what romance or relationship arcs from other games did you personally enjoy that can serve as examples?

As shocking as it is, I'm actually going to use a Bioware "romance" as an example of probably one of the better in-game "romances" I've endured.

 

Valen Shadowbreath from Hordes of the Underdark is probably one of the few romances that I've pursued of my own free will, and not just to experience additional dialogue content that was otherwise unavailable. Hordes of the Underdark was one of Bioware's earlier games (Pre EA anyway), and largely ignored by the gaming community for reasons I personally cannot fathom.

 

Valen starts out by making it perfectly plain that he doesn't trust you, or your intentions, or your abilities, he pretty much wants to throw you out on your hide and deal with the Big Evil in his own way, but he begrudgingly agrees to help you because his superiors order him to. As you progress through the game, Valen offers professional advice about the Underdark, it's inhabitants and ways to combat them. If you choose to pursue more conversations with him, you can learn about his past, the hardships he's endured and his feelings/beliefs on a number of topics. Assuming you choose dialogue options that won't enrage him and make him want to crush you into a gooey, messy, red smear on the ground, Valen will eventually build a begrudging respect for you and your abilities, he'll also admit that he kind of resented your appearance and importance.

 

The thing about Valen's relationship that I really like is the fact that a large portion of his dialogue is "Neutral", as it were. The majority of the dialogue is friendship based and not hidden behind a "romance" flag of any kind, and very little of it tends towards flirtatious. Female Player Characters have maybe two or three opportunities to flirt with Valen and none of these led to large dramatic dialogues reserved purely for "romance", so there was very little attention to the "romantic" side of his character, and as a result the "romance" wasn't very prominent. This doesn't seem like a very important thing, but to me it was considered the *most* important thing, because very little of the dialogue tended towards "romantic involvement" I didn't feel like I was being pushed towards a romantic relationship, and that was a huge deal.

 

I didn't like Valen when I first played Hordes of the Underdark, I didn't trust him and I didn't particularly appreciate how he treated me with such great suspicion. His entire character really grated on me and yet, as Valen built a begrudging respect for me, I ended up building the same kind of respect for him and eventually ended up appreciating the friendship he offered me. When his admission of possibly being in love with me came up I was like "When did I start liking you..?". I honestly couldn't figure out when I gone from disliking his very existence to being unable to imagine the game without him.

 

I wouldn't have had this reaction to Valen if the romantic dialogue had been as prominent as it is in more modern RPGs. I played Dragon Age: Origins when it came out, and I found it extremely difficult to view my companions with the same kind of... I don't know... Realism? The first few conversations I had with Alistair in Origins made me see him as nothing but a "Potential Love Interest" and I found it really hard to connect with him as a result, I couldn't appreciate his character because he was dominated so thoroughly by his "romance" that there was little to no characterization to him.

 

---do you have any particular, preferred game mechanics for romance/relationships that you'd like to see included (optional questlines, dialogue, cutscenes)?

As my opinion on Valen Shadowbreath no doubt screams - I don't think huge branching unique dialogues are necessary for every form of relationship in order to make companion relationships deep, complex and enjoyable, especially not in terms of romance. Though I would expect companions, and "staple NPCs", to react accordingly to any actions that you take - If I murder an innocent woman in front of her five innocent children, I would expect a "Paladin" or "White Knight" self-righteous nutter to try and lop my head off for it, or at least express extreme disdain and disgust at my actions and leave if I don't have a reasonable excuse for it.

 

In terms of quests, I don't feel like companions need their own essential quest lines, though they would undoubtedly be welcomed - Companion Quests can offer us insight into the beliefs, experiences and feelings of our companions that we wouldn't otherwise see. I think at the very least I would appreciate seeing companions somehow integrated into sub-plots or non-essential quest lines, Mask of the Betrayer did this well with Okku and Gannayev, your companions didn't demand anything from you or send you out on non-essential side missions, they just happened to be connected to areas that you were required to visit anyway, Okku in the Mountains with his Bear Friends and Gannayev in the Sunken City.

 

That being said, it would also be nice to see basic companion interaction on unrelated quests - Nothing bothers me more than companions being silent observers with little to no opinion on the events unfolding around them. If i'm disbanding a slaver ring and come across slaves that are "broken in" and unable to grasp the concept of freedom, I would like to hear the opinions of my companions on how they would like to handle the situation. I'd also like to see the companions interact with each other on occasion, similar to Bishop and Casavir or Sand and Qara, there are bound to be "clashes of personality" and it would be nice to see the results of such conflicts.

 

In terms of cut-scenes - I consider them to be an unnecessary expenditure, at least in terms of Player and Companion relationships. I definitely don't want to see a cut-scene displaying the "romantic climax" (pardon the pun) of a romantic relationship.

 

 

Now my general opinion on if romance should be included in Project E is a relatively.... Tricky one.

 

There are obvious pros to romance - There can be a deeper emotional connection for players that pursue them and it's a greater impactive plot device that can elicit a huge amount of emotional turmoil in a Player.... Yet, there's obvious cons ranging from the simple matters of quality (or lack of) and larger matters of equality, or lack of choice.

 

The biggest problem I have with romance is the fact it can quite easily becoming overbearing and the only character quality that a Player might see, it happened to me with Alistair in Dragon Age Origins, and this can easily destroy the integrity of a character. Nothing annoys me more than the feeling that a Character exists simply as a "Love Interest" to conquer and it's quite a regular occurrence these days, and not just in Bioware games.

 

Romance can also, quite often, limit the amount of dialogue available to Players who refuse to pursue them - Prime examples of this lie in (but are not limited to) recent Bioware games, primarily the Mass Effect series, Knights of the Old Republic and Dragon Age 2 - and this isn't acceptable, at no point should a Player lose all Companion progression or development simply for refusing to pursue romantic interactions. The Mass Effect series is guilty of this - Subject Zero, Garrus, Miranda Lawson, Kaidan Alenko - nearly all the Party Characters in the Mass Effect series suffer a huge loss of dialogue for people who simply avoid getting romantically involved with them. I refused to romance Kaidan Alenko in Mass Effect and I suffered nearly half the over-all content for his character.

 

Another big problem is the obvious sense of entitlement that can often follow "romances" like a plague - I'm not pointing any fingers here so please don't take it as a personal insult. If one Character is better suited to someone's personality, but they find themselves unable to romance them as a consequence of a specific choice they have made (be it in an in-game choice, or customization choice), only to discover that other people are capable of "romancing" the same Character, they can often feel as though they've been cheated.

 

Now, I'm a huge fan of rejection, for a variety of reasons ranging from Player Customization(Dwarf won't date an Elf) to In-Game consequences(Paladin won't date a homicidal maniac), so I never feel that I should be entitled to a specific relationship with a specific character, but I know from personal experience that people can sometimes feel as though their personal choices have caused the writers to "railroad" them into unforeseen consequences and their options have suffered as a result. Public outcry can be the downfall of character integrity and this is one of my greatest fears, not just for Project Eternity but for RPGs as a whole.

 

I don't know... I know there are times that "romance" can offer a great deal of emotional turmoil to a Player that can be difficult to forget, I certainly won't forget the moment that Valen captured my heart or Gannayev discovered his insane mother in the Sunken City. But I also know that "romances" can do more harm than good if they aren't handled with care, attention and the completely impartial and objective professionalism of the writer.

 

Wow: That was way longer than I intended, my apologies for ranting. I'd like to make it perfectly clear that everything in this post is my opinion, and in no way do I intend to force my opinion on anyone as fact, nor is it my intention to offend anybody on either side of this endless debate.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Sylvanpyxie

[evdk]

Combine both and we have a bold and daring game. The necrophiliac bard that had the largest harem ever known in an RPG.

Best romance ever, and the women would have a nonstandard body type too!

Edited October 19, 2012 by evdk

[Malcador]

Best romance ever, and the women would have a nonstandard body type too!

 

Damn everyone wins. The forums DO produce good ideas.

[Merin]

Poll I did awhile back -

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60688-romance-in-project-eternity-how-important-how-much/page__view__findpost__p__1209426

 

Link to specific post where I'm quoting from -

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60688-romance-in-project-eternity-how-important-how-much/page__st__100?do=findComment&comment=1210297

 

and quote, for my contribution to the thread -

 

 

 

 

4 - If Project Eternity does include romance, how do you want it implemented?

some thoughts on the ways: just backstory and NPCs; player character with an NPC/NPCs; player character with companions; just amongst companions; flirting; platonic relationships... lots of ways it could be done, not just the PC on companions model (though, if that's what you want, go ahead and voice your desire for it)

And my answer -

 

I'd, personally, prefer the romance to not be between the PC and the companions. If there is romance, it should be outside that dynamic. Some flirting, mutual attraction, whatever - if it is included, that's fine. But I'd rather see the romance in the background, at best, as part of the story you interact with, or between the PC and a few potential, non-companion, NPCs in the world.

 

I think the vocal minority (as far as any of these polls and threads have shown, it's a minority voting no to romance at all) have as their most salient concern the waste of writing resources on companions, and this is a very real concern that I understand and sympathize with. If there is a writer assigned to a companion, any potential romance with said companion is more for the writer to have work on and weave into non-romance parts of the dialog at times as well. For those who want nothing to do with romance, or whom just might not want to romance a given character, that character will suddenly have less content and might feel a bit shallow compared to other companions.

 

I don't think its a minority who hold that particular concern - I think most people posting in this thread want strong companions and no wasted writing.

 

In any event, due to the small size of the game and the limit funds they have to work with, I am for romance being background, window dressing, part of the story around the character and their party... not integral, or even optional, for the PC and the companions.

 

To sum up - romance should be part of the story of the game at some level, with characters you meet having their own relationships, perhaps some motivations of more important NPCs be tied up to romantic feelings, and maybe even some non-companion NPCs having the optional plot thread of a romance. But I don't want it to be a major part of the game, unless that is Obsidian's design goals, and I'd rather it not be romance with companions.

[Rahelron]

Merrill (DA2), Tali (Mass Effect)

Ok now you are trolling. I ignore the other two, but with these ones no one with a brain should take you seriously.

 

You don't have to like their storylines, but Tali and Merrill had their own problems that were not linked with the main character in any way. Tali had the difficoult relationship with her race and her father, Merrill had her quest for the Eluvian.

 

I hate Merrill and I consider her a childish emo girl that does nothing else but cry around and complain that no one wants to help her, but this is just a personal judgement. Facts are that romancing her is totally optional, her storyline goes on with or without you by her side.

[Living One]

Merrill (DA2), Tali (Mass Effect)

Ok now you are trolling. I ignore the other two, but with these ones no one with a brain should take you seriously.

 

You don't have to like their storylines, but Tali and Merrill had their own problems that were not linked with the main character in any way. Tali had the difficoult relationship with her race and her father, Merrill had her quest for the Eluvian.

 

I hate Merrill and I consider her a childish emo girl that does nothing else but cry around and complain that no one wants to help her, but this is just a personal judgement. Facts are that romancing her is totally optional, her storyline goes on with or without you by her side.

Yes,and the main story was a mess consisting in mandatory side-quests.But you and others will undoubtly keep deluding yourselves that romances don't detract from more important things.

[Pshaw]

Merrill (DA2), Tali (Mass Effect)

Ok now you are trolling. I ignore the other two, but with these ones no one with a brain should take you seriously.

 

I disagree. Merrill was simply OK, but then again that's about as good as any of the DA2 romances got. So she might simply be getting a pass due to the low bar the game set on this front.

 

I personally thought Tali was a good romance. It wasn't an instant romp in the sac or anything like that. She served with you the entire first game without developing a romantic interest in Shepard. Her character was interesting and believable and I always liked the Quarian peoples story in general. She also says it best herself in the game at some point where she says, "A young woman gets rescued by a dashing commander who lets her join his crew then goes off to save the galaxy? How could she possibly develop any kind of interest in him?" Also it's kind of a big deal in the mass effect universe for an alien to be trusted enough to be asked to serve on an alliance military vessel. Even more so for a Quarian as they they're pretty much space pariahs that nobody trusts to begin with. So that relationship developed pretty naturally in my eyes.

[-Zin-]

I actually feel Obsidian makes great romances.

 

I was disappointed when they were not included in Fallout New Vegas though. Just remember to include them and I'm happy.

 

EDIT: Actually, I would like to see more romances like the one you can have with Queen Anora from Dragon Age Origins. Most wouldn't consider it a real romance because you don't see much of Anora in the game, and she is very sneaky and dishonest if she felt you were crossing her. I actually get why people dislike her, but I liked her because I could relate more to her than Morrigan and Leiliana. Morrigan is a witch from the woods who doesn't know what she wants., and Leilana is off her trolly thinking the Maker talks through her and that's why she doesn't have to make sense. Right, well, at least I understand Anora. Also, hot queen? Yes please.

 

But here's the things I liked about that romance.

 

She wasn't a party member, but she was an important character non the less. My dude was a great warrior, but the squabbles of politics didn't interest him. Anora loved it however, and it was fitting that she handled the majority of it. At the same time, I felt that as her husband, my guy could say: "You know sweetie, I would like if this other thing happened, but not so much the thing that's happening now." And she would listen to it and take it into consideration. In fact, you get some opportunities to work together with her at the end of the game, and in Awakening. She is queen, but she asks for your input and actually backs your up decision. My character even gott banter options when he was alone with her to show that my character and Anora did care for each other. I thought that was nice.

 

So I would definetly like to see more like that, but maybe get more private time with that NPC? If the game takes place over a longer span of years, and if you met a noble woman/man, you could get into a relationship, and it could blossom over time. Marriage. Kids. But also that the character helped you in meaningful ways, with certain quest problems you have. That character might help you even if you're not in a relationship with that NPC, but just include some extra dialouges if you're in a relationship. Mmm, of course, I don't mind helping out the romancable NPC. I mean, there's a certain amount of team-work in good relationships I think.

 

Well, this certainly got ambitious. Anyway, just a thought.

Edited October 19, 2012 by -Zin-

[TheMufflon]

I know I mocked the inverted commas the first time, but now that they're gone I kinda miss 'em.

[Kymriana]

I'll toss this back up, if nothing else than as something for anyone new to the thread to read and consider if they so wish.

 

It basically appears people want character growth and development amoung the party that can include rivalry, sword-brother/sister, best friends, platonic loves, or straight up lovers. Having a believable evolution of interactions between a diverse group of people who are traveling for great lengths of time together through various situations that binds them together in equally diverse ways. It just is insane to me that people want character interactive growth in every way except romance... because romance is somehow eeeeeeeeeebil. But two people who have wildly different moral stances can learn to despise each other and one eventually betray the PC and/or leave the party is A-OK, right? There is literally no difference between the two when both are written well in the sense that both are showing a growth and changing of feelings between two characters dependent upon the choices that are made throughout the story. When handled by an experienced and creative writer, like the ones we have at the helm here, both are equal.

 

What I have just pointed out is a compromise in that I have said what people here want: A solid well written story with characters that matter. You can't section off one way people interact, especially when they're with a small group of people for a very long time and facing various situations, but say that all of the others are fine. The whole point is that we are all, every single person here, expecting the writers to be up to the task of crafting a powerful engaging story. With realistically understandable characters. I don't want one-dimensional card-board cutouts.... this means I want them to run a realistic gambit of emotions: hate, joy, disgust, envy, revenge, heroism, villainy, love, despair.... It is all there, it all matters.

 

I am not saying 'it should be like X game!' and I don't expect it to be. I want it to be the game that the creative staff at Obsidian envisioned when they first started this project. They don't HAVE an enforced time-line. They don't HAVE a Triple-A Tyranical Over-Company demanding they meet pointless milestones, deadlines, or pandering. What I DO expect is for it to be well written.

[Shadenuat]

Ban LadyCrimson.

[kenup]

Merrill (DA2), Tali (Mass Effect)

Ok now you are trolling. I ignore the other two, but with these ones no one with a brain should take you seriously.

 

You don't have to like their storylines, but Tali and Merrill had their own problems that were not linked with the main character in any way. Tali had the difficoult relationship with her race and her father, Merrill had her quest for the Eluvian.

 

I hate Merrill and I consider her a childish emo girl that does nothing else but cry around and complain that no one wants to help her, but this is just a personal judgement. Facts are that romancing her is totally optional, her storyline goes on with or without you by her side.

Tali doesn't advance after her side mission, unless you pursue a "romantic" relationship. And Merril's mission doesn't have any effect beyond the mission on her or in the plot. The only thing that affects the plot is a slider that may or may not change much from her mission. Besides which both ME2 and DA2 are the base of **** RPGs here come RomancePGs(one with shooter elements and the other with Exploding bodies and contrived final arc elements)!

Edited October 19, 2012 by kenup