Bows: Limited ammo?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I like limited ammo because I like bows to be powerful. With unlimited arrows, powerful bows are grossly unbalanced, so then limited ammo is required to bring bows back in line with other weapons.

 

Honestly, I think BG handled this well. If you wanted to carry enough arrows to supply a pure archer through any significant adventuring area, you needed the inventories of 2 characters to carry those arrows.

[ogrezilla]

I like limited ammo because I like bows to be powerful. With unlimited arrows, powerful bows are grossly unbalanced, so then limited ammo is required to bring bows back in line with other weapons.

 

Honestly, I think BG handled this well. If you wanted to carry enough arrows to supply a pure archer through any significant adventuring area, you needed the inventories of 2 characters to carry those arrows.

considering how easy and insignificant it was to get more arrows, I really don't see how limiting them had any effect on the balance of the game. It seriously never ever had any influence on a fight. You could go get more at any moment with no disadvantage; just a few wasted minutes. There was never a reason to ever use basic arrows any more sparingly than you would have if they were unlimited.

 

upgraded arrows are a different story and I am glad they were limited.

Edited October 3, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Jarmo]

Unless we're going to say it's impossible for someone without proficiency to use a bow, having unlimited arrows is problematic since you just have the whole party fight ranged until enemies get close enough to wail on - I used this strategy alot in BG, and it was very effective. If no one needed to worry about their arrows, it would have been far too easy.

 

Sound strategy, that's what I did and what I'd expect to do here.

You didn't run out of ammo in the first battle did you? So worrying over it means going back to shop every few battles.

 

Not sure about throwing daggers and such, I know the stacks of 50 throwing axes were a bit silly in NWN2.

(and I keep thinking of the enchanting line of some factory, producing enchanted arrows by the thousand)

 

But there's the thing about returning hammers of thor, bows of unlimited ammo and stuff like that.

Those do lose the charm if everything is unlimited, so maybe I'm in the limited everything side after all.

 

But I'd still kind of rather have the convenience, I spend too much time on inventory anyway. Damn.

[Adauli]

I vote for limited Ammo but would love to have Magical items that generate Ammo like a quiver of endless Flaming Arrows or such things.

[Hypevosa]

Actually I didn't use shops, I just was conservative with ammo and used the strategy more as a when necessary or when I had tons of arrows to spare.

[GhostofAnakin]

I think bows should have limited ammo, but I think magical ammo should be hard to come by.

[IcyDeadPeople]

I vote for limited Ammo but would love to have Magical items that generate Ammo like a quiver of endless Flaming Arrows or such things.

 

Yeah I was also a bit surprised to see a poll option for unlimited mundane arrows and limited magical arrows, instead of the other way around.

 

If any type of ammo is unlimited, it would seem a bit more appropriate for magic arrows conjured up by a mage's spell, which has a limited duration and consumes magic resources (or must be memorized if they take the Vancian approach).

 

I like limited ammo because I like bows to be powerful. With unlimited arrows, powerful bows are grossly unbalanced, so then limited ammo is required to bring bows back in line with other weapons.

 

 

Great point, infinite arrows also result in balance issues, compensated in some games by making arrows very weak, or by giving archers bizarre spell-like effects on a quickbar cooldown timer that have absolutely nothing to do with archery.

Edited October 3, 2012 by IcyDeadPeople

[ogrezilla]

Actually I didn't use shops, I just was conservative with ammo and used the strategy more as a when necessary or when I had tons of arrows to spare.

I'm assuming not for characters who were regularly equipped with ranged weapons? Or did you just not use full time ranged characters?

[Hypevosa]

Actually I didn't use shops, I just was conservative with ammo and used the strategy more as a when necessary or when I had tons of arrows to spare.

I'm assuming not for characters who were regularly equipped with ranged weapons? Or did you just not use full time ranged characters?

 

I kept an appropriate ranged weapon on each character and would have everyone use it to wail on enemies before they got in range to melee. I never had any "dedicated" ranged characters myself, as melee always outclassed damage wise.

[Gamgee]

Limited.

[TCJ]

I prefer limited ammo. BG2's stacks of 40 arrows worked well for me, though whether or not that works for this game depends on how the inventory is set up. Having three slots in the quiver actually gave you plenty of ammo (120) even with the limited stacks. I'd prefer a system like that anyway.

[True_Spike]

I prefer limited ammo, myself.

[Macbeth]

I voted unlimited standard arrows and limited specials.

 

To be honest, the way BG handled it, it was a drag having to buy a handful of arrows for 1 symbolic gold piece after every map/dungeon; having to fill your ranger’s inventory to the brim with ‘em and then still having to move them manually to the arrow slots when (s)he ran out.

 

In a sense they were unlimited anyway, except that you had go get them from the unlimited pile every so often – a great bore if you forgot and you ran out in the middle of a dungeon.

[cyberarmy]

Yes, all ammunition should be limited.

 

But they need to stack better than IE games, 1000 arrows in a stack is a better way methinks.

[DocDoomII]

With a small and fixed inventory with small ammunition stack it can be annoying, but having standard unlimited arrows that pop out of thin air is just... lazy.

Edited October 3, 2012 by DocDoomII

[Jarmo]

Assuming the ammo is limited, I'd really like to be able to get at least a portion of them back after the fight. Preferably automatically.

Doubly so if the ammo is my 3 javelins or the single throwing axe.

[TrashMan]

1) have a quiver contain 100 arrows and have it weightmore. Limit inventory.

 

2) have arrows be dealdier..and don't let archers fire bows like machinguns. Taking carefull aim - especially in melee - takes time (hence, you run out of them slower)

 

3) Dont' build a character that is super-specialzed, then complain when he can't do anything when his specilazation is no longer usable. Taht's not the games fault. It is the players.

[Poolp]

Where is the fun managing how many arrows you carry, go craft them or go buy some all the time... Unless the damage per arrow is really high, don't limit the number, I think it's only slowing down the pace of the game to have to do amo management.

[Hypevosa]

Where is the fun managing how many arrows you carry, go craft them or go buy some all the time... Unless the damage per arrow is really high, don't limit the number, I think it's only slowing down the pace of the game to have to do amo management.

 

It's not a question of fun so much as the challenge the game presents. If you have unlimited ammo, you lose some of the challenge since you can just always have everyone fire arrows at the enemy before they get in melee range. Having limited arrows makes you manage how often you can do that, and for how long.

[Volourn]

Limited ammo. This is just logical and fun. It surely didn't lessen my enjoyment of BG (or other games) with it. This, to me, comes in the same category of limited rest, no auto regen, weighted coinage, and other 'hardcore' stuff that is taken for granted in actual pnp but CRPG gamers are too cowardly and chicken to deal with.

[DocDoomII]

Where is the fun managing how many arrows you carry, go craft them or go buy some all the time... Unless the damage per arrow is really high, don't limit the number, I think it's only slowing down the pace of the game to have to do amo management.

Only in action movies they have unlimited ammo.

This is not an action movie, nor an acRPG. Having natural unlimited ammo for ranged weapon would be dumb.

[Caligula Dances]

I voted that all ammunition should be limited, it would make combat alittle more exciting knowing that your archers might run of arrows and need to switch to a sidearm (dagger or such like) and having infinite anything to me, would damage immersion. (carrying infinite arrows!)

[ogrezilla]

3) Dont' build a character that is super-specialzed, then complain when he can't do anything when his specilazation is no longer usable. Taht's not the games fault. It is the players.

 

But that never happens. The character never stops being usable even if all they can use is a bow. You just walk back to town and grab more arrows from the unlimited supply. It never once had an impact on the game aside from adding a few minutes to your completion time.

 

Where is the fun managing how many arrows you carry, go craft them or go buy some all the time... Unless the damage per arrow is really high, don't limit the number, I think it's only slowing down the pace of the game to have to do amo management.

 

It's not a question of fun so much as the challenge the game presents. If you have unlimited ammo, you lose some of the challenge since you can just always have everyone fire arrows at the enemy before they get in melee range. Having limited arrows makes you manage how often you can do that, and for how long.

 

what challenge did it add? You chose not to keep your characters stocked, but that was your own self imposed rule. Every one of your characters had access to unlimited arrows; you just chose not to use them.

 

Its not a big enough deal that I really would be upset or anything if they are "limited" like they were in the old games. It was easy enough to go get more. It just felt like tedium for the sake of "realism" even though I was carrying an unrealistic amount of arrows on my party full of dwarfs and elves and magic users. I still say either actually make them limited or make them unlimited; the middle ground where they are unlimited except I have to waste a few minutes occasionally just isn't good design. People who want smart resource management don't get it and people who don't want tedium do get it. Nobody wins. It's just barely enough to justify it with immersion.

Edited October 3, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Amentep]

I find the archery systems in games with unlimited ammo to be boring at best and at worst on the level of pew pew pew style MMO combat where archery is just another button on a cooldown quickbar timer, like a spell, etc. For those of you who prefer unlimited ammo, would you propose unlimited ammo for crossbows and arquebuses as well? How about unlimited throwing daggers, unlimited spears, etc.?

 

Personally, if I'm playing an archer or crossbowman character, I want to be really pleased to find a couple of arrows or quarrels, or a recipe for crafting them. Unlimited ammo ruins this aspect of the game, and it makes the entire archery system feel much less realistic. Same goes for arquebuses, or whatever sort of medieval flintlock firearms will be in the game. Wouldn't it be fun to play a character who learns how to craft the black powder and buckshot, or whatever sort of primitive bullets they use? If it's all unlimited, then there's no point in crafting them.

 

Duke Patrick's Combat Archery Mod for Oblivion got this right. The guy is a real life archery expert and he put a lot of work into designing some mechanics that recreate something of the feel of real archery combat. Arrows have a lot of force and damage, but you can't pew pew pew them like a laser gun. It takes time and concentration to draw the bow and it's easy to stumble, or mess up your shot if you get hit with melee while you are drawing.

 

so when you run out of arrows in a game like icewind dale, do you really enjoy walking back to town to buy more? Does it actually add any value to the game? I mean, its a minor enough hassle that I really don't mind keeping up with arrows. I just don't get what is enjoyable about it. Seems like realism for the sake of realism to buy arrows for your elf.

 

I voted limited but I really don't mind unlimited; but generally speaking I rarely ran out of arrows in IWD (partially because I usually had other players carry some for my archer characters). But even when I did I didn't feel that my archer had become useless switching to an alternate wepon (just not as useful).

[Flying Magician]

what challenge did it add? You chose not to keep your characters stocked, but that was your own self imposed rule. Every one of your characters had access to unlimited arrows; you just chose not to use them.

 

Its not a big enough deal that I really would be upset or anything if they are "limited" like they were in the old games. It was easy enough to go get more. It just felt like tedium for the sake of "realism" even though I was carrying an unrealistic amount of arrows on my party full of dwarfs and elves and magic users. I still say either actually make them limited or make them unlimited; the middle ground where they are unlimited except I have to waste a few minutes occasionally just isn't good design. People who want smart resource management don't get it and people who don't want tedium do get it. Nobody wins. It's just barely enough to justify it with immersion.

 

Joker_and_here_we_go.gif

 

I have reasons to believe, this guy lives in his own world and shouldn't be treated seriously.

 

Check his intelectual gems from Food thread. I omit his mutually exclusive statements, where he has nothing against limited things (just walking out from partially exterminated location ruines his immershun)

 

ogrezilla, on 28 September 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

If I run out of arrows in the middle of a dungeon, I should have to find more arrows or switch to a sword. But if fixing the problem of hunger or a lack of arrows simply means walking out of the dungeon and buying more food or arrows then you haven't added anything of value to the game, you have added tedium

 

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But every single time I ran out of arrows I had the same reaction. "Oh, now I have to walk back to town." It didn't matter where I was or what I was doing. My punishment for running out of arrows was a walk back to town. It didn't add any difficulty to the game. It didn't add any strategy to my preparations. It wasted a few minutes of my time.

 

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And yes, this goes for any resource management in the game. Healing potions, gold, carrying capacity, lockpicks, spells, food or brushing my teeth. If they want to require me to go to the bathroom every so often or risk my armor rusting, do it in a way that is satisfying or leave it out entirely.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Flying Magician