Gender Prejudice

[Amentep]

 

Physically, men and women in our reality are different. Starting by having different sex!!!

Then, supposing some "stereotypes" as bonus/penalties based on sex for the humans in PE (or any other race that has a biological history of segregrating tasks), we could have (as example):

Males +1 Strength/+1 Constitution and Females +1 Dexterity/+1 Will. The system has some minimum and some maximums, like minimum for each stat is 3 and maximum is 18, having a 10 in each stat being the baseline for the common human (or whatever race).

 

The fact that some women can be stronger than men and some men can be wiser than women is because not everybody is born as a baseline common human. Yeah, the may get the racial bonuses but their stats may not need to be all 10s (being a PC, he could use roll 3d6 for each stat, or use some kind of point buy system...). The "average human" does not really exist (or is extremelly rare) anyways. So those racial bonuses are nothing but a "tendency". If you score a 14 in Strength with a male (after bonus) and I score a 18 in Strength with a female (that has no bonus), the tendency in our cases is not true. But in the general picture of PE, your male may be true to that tendency and be stronger than most of the females of your male's race.

 

I thought Arcanum did this right, giving the bonus/penalty for gender but then allowing you to choose a background that would essentially negate it if you chose to, thus allowing you to create characters the way you wanted to in a more fleshed out manner.

 

More on topic, I have read many times that people don't want their sex choice to impact the game (lets keep romances out of the equation...) beyond the proper recognition of the PC's sex in the conversations. Hopefully, that doesn't include having social issues in a fantasy world with societies that are not real. So much for "roleplaying" if not.

 

i have no problem with choosing who my character is having some "effect" to reactions - whether its race or gender - personally. I think so long as the "penalty" in society isn't a permanent barrier (ie the man in the fiercely matriarchal society or the woman in the fiercely patriarchal society can still prove themselves based on their skills). I think it would be frustrating for a player if the effect to gender was to cut off content unless there was additional content they could only access based on their character.

 

Which I think is really the problem having more and more content to address every possible character combo.

[AwesomeOcelot]

It's a bit ridiculous that certain games set in more primitive societies don't even mention rape, but you also don't want to exploit rape like the Tomb Raider people (Crystal Dynamics) to make people feel they want to "protect" the protagonist, or that it's something more awful than murder or brutal injuring assault, there's a large area between pretending it doesn't exist and exploitation.

 

Having gender prejudice be part of the world might be something useful to explore for Obsidian.

 

See, this kind of bias is something I would really like to see in the game: then I could give the one saying it some "butt-kicking for goodness!" .

 

Thanks for giving the example. I really hope for your sake you were just trolling .

are you seriously denying that men are stronger than women? for real?

 

I'm a man, on average men are stronger than women, and I'm stronger than the average woman, but there's millions of women who are stronger than me.

Edited October 2, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[NOK222]

I'd rather not be reminded. And if you'd 'like to see' this, even within a game... then I worry about your future.

 

Hold your horses white knight, and leave the petty insults to BSN. First off Don Quixote, I meant threathened not the actual action. Maybe the...no, actually I'm not going to say anything else since this makes people go ****ing crazy

 

Thanks for coming back and clarifying. While I still dislike even the idea of being threatened with it (you likely would to, had you suffered from it), it does lower my hackles having you explain yourself more. I also wasn't meaning to be insulting, just that - if you meant the phrase the way I took it to mean - I was honestly worried about your interests.

 

I know the response you quoted got your hackles raised as much as your first one got mine, but I want to re-iterate my appreciation for your clarification here. I mean it: thanks.

 

Being sensitive to issues is admirable and a virtue.

 

But a bunch of roving mercenaries threatening to just take your stuff and kill you is silly. As someone explained earlier with the glorification of murder and violence, real issues, but are tossed around and even joked about.

 

I'm not saying turn this world into a dark crapfest filled with murder AND rape, but the kiddification in our media to these issues is silly.

[anek]

Imagine our heroes venturing into some sort of elven(or something) society, which might be deeply matriarchal. And even though both our heroes might be insufferably human, the female would be tolerated even if considered of lesser species, whereas the male would be treated outrightly as little more than a slave.

 

Something like this was done in BG2, in the Drow city in the Underdark.

Non-Drow were killed on sight or enslaved, and even if your party entered disguised as Drow, you would get treated like crap for not being from around here, and even more so if your main character was male.

 

PS: It was, imo, one of the best parts of the game - it kept my heart racing for the entire time I was in the city... They really made you feel that you were totally at the whim of the higher-ranking members in that matriarchical social structure, and every decision and every dialog choice had to be weighed carefully in order to not "fall from grace".

Edited October 2, 2012 by anek

[D3xter]

I disagree on this one.

 

You could argue that they should also put racial prejudice against black people in the game but no game developer is going to do that because its unnecessary and we are past that in the real world. This isn't the real world, this is a video game with its own world created by Obsidian, they can make it different.

 

I thought racism was already confirmed?

 

http://penny-arcade....-eternity-and-0

Brennecke talked about Project Eternity exploring mature themes, though the studio’s definition of “mature” doesn’t necessarily mean sex and gore. Brennecke’s example was racism. Reading through the Kickstarter updates, there’s some hints of how that could play out on reincarnated souls. “...souls are subject to “fracturing” over generations, transforming in myriad ways, and not quite… working right. Some cultures and individuals place a high value on “strong” souls, souls with a “pure” lineage, “awakened” souls that remember past lives, “traveled” souls that have drifted through the divine realms, or those that co-exist with other souls in one body. However, the opposite is also true, resulting in negative discrimination and sometimes outright violence.”

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/318515

Elthosian asks…

How much reactivity can we expect from the world based in our character's race and sub-race?

Answer: We will provide a lot of reactivity in our game to your choice of race. We are planning on giving each race a set of traits that the player can pick from, and those traits affect everything from dialogs choices to skill bonuses to what kind of options you will have to finish some quests. There probably won't be quests that are just for one race, but one thing we are not going to do for certain is make race-restricted items. While many items have a cultural connection to some races, they will still be useable by members of other races. It might be unusual to see humans in elven chain, but they can wear it.

Edited October 2, 2012 by D3xter

[Tamerlane]

Hm.

 

Y'all... played New Vegas, right?

[Umberlin]

It'd be interesting to see the social constructs of different societies within a game with differing views on things like magic, gender and race . . . but only if it were done well and handled with the intelligence and care needed to make something like that come of as thoughtful and challenging rather than as in bad taste.

[alanschu]

This is what I always wonder when I see something like this:

 

Imagine a female character. Let's say she's a warrior class, swinging sword is what she does for a living. And maybe she's quite good at it, but why would anyone newly met take her prowess and experience as granted?

 

Why shouldn't they?

 

 

Personally I'm not a very big proponent for stuff like this because I think the execution needs to be very delicate, and frankly find it more mature when such stereotypes (which I consider immature) aren't particularly rampant. JMO.

 

 

I thought racism was already confirmed?

 

At the same time, do you expect that people will look at your character differently based on the color of the skin you use?

 

I suspect there will be cultural conflicts as they have highlighted that cultural differences exist within each of the races (or species I suppose may be more appropriate).

Edited October 2, 2012 by alanschu

[NOK222]

Hm.

 

Y'all... played New Vegas, right?

 

Enslavement of prostitutes, mentions of rape in Ceaser's Legion camp, the fiend warlord whose named "the cook" who rapes people then fries them with his flamethrower. Skyrim, a daedric prince called "the prince of rape", who created vampires and a ritual involves offering yourself to him in order to become a vampire. Do people plant their hands over their ears and go "LALALALLALA" over this?

 

Because apparently sexual assault doesn't exist in video games.

[Thulean]

 

 

I'm a man, on average men are stronger than women, and I'm stronger than the average woman, but there's millions of women who are stronger than me.

 

But no woman is as strong as the strongest of men. This should be reflected in the game.

[cuteLittleRabbit]

This is what I always wonder when I see something like this:

 

Imagine a female character. Let's say she's a warrior class, swinging sword is what she does for a living. And maybe she's quite good at it, but why would anyone newly met take her prowess and experience as granted?

 

Why shouldn't they?

 

 

Personally I'm not a very big proponent for stuff like this because I think the execution needs to be very delicate, and frankly find it more mature when such stereotypes (which I consider immature) aren't particularly rampant. JMO.

 

Stereotypes are very common in the real world. If well done, a game could play out those stereotypes and have the player have an influence in showing that these stereotypes are ignorant/immature, but can be overcome. Which is why I like these kinds of deep mature themes in books/games/movies.

 

But, in games, I prefer to *not* have them *at all* to being forced/coerced/coaxed/rewarded for not fighting against the stereotypes.

 

Maybe that is exactly what I would call a good implementation for a mature subject like stereotyping in a game: let the players benefit from fighting against stereotypes, even if it means losing some other reward instead... Food for thought...

[Osvir]

Men should get -2 Intelligence and +1 Strength. That's what they get for starting statistics threads on Male and Female haha

 

Okay jokes aside, I can still envision it. This is a Medieval Fantasy setting as far as I understand it. In larger cities, I have an innate feeling that there will be "slaves" for starters, both male and female. I have a distinct feeling that it might be, in Human culture, a male dominated society. Women not being of equal worth, except those few bitter old baronesses and innocent pure women, independent women and strong women. It would however be few in the "crowd" so to speak (Population-wise) for it's Era.

 

Someone said they are talking about "No boobplates please. It doesn't fit in a realistic fantasy", what does this mean? They want authenticity.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Osvir

[AwesomeOcelot]

I'm a man, on average men are stronger than women, and I'm stronger than the average woman, but there's millions of women who are stronger than me.

 

But no woman is as strong as the strongest of men. This should be reflected in the game.

 

Not necessarily because the strongest of men might be such an outlier that it doesn't make much sense to account for such a rarity in a system like say SPECIAL where strength is a number 1-10.

Edited October 2, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[TrashMan]

I'm a man, on average men are stronger than women, and I'm stronger than the average woman, but there's millions of women who are stronger than me.

 

But no woman is as strong as the strongest of men. This should be reflected in the game.

 

Not necessarily because the strongest of men might be such an outlier that it doesn't make much sense to account for such a rarity in a system like say SPECIAL where strength is a number 1-10.

 

They aren't outliers.

 

The strength distribution curve is symetrical (with the males curve being nudged forward).

 

Take a look at sports. Males outperform women. It's the reason why leages and events are separated.

I guarantee you that all those women train hard. And they still get beaten by men who train hard.

 

 

Or if you want antoher example...women in the miltiary? Sure, there are some.

Women in special forces? Nope.

Edited October 2, 2012 by TrashMan

[NOK222]

Women in special forces? Nope.

 

This is true, there are also no infantry-women, at least in the U.S.

[Giantevilhead]

I'm a man, on average men are stronger than women, and I'm stronger than the average woman, but there's millions of women who are stronger than me.

 

But no woman is as strong as the strongest of men. This should be reflected in the game.

 

Not necessarily because the strongest of men might be such an outlier that it doesn't make much sense to account for such a rarity in a system like say SPECIAL where strength is a number 1-10.

 

They aren't outliers.

 

The strength distribution curve is symetrical (with the males curve being nudged forward).

 

Take a look at sports. Males outperform women. It's the reason why leages and events are separated.

I guarantee you that all those women train hard. And they still get beaten by men who train hard.

 

 

Or if you want antoher example...women in the miltiary? Sure, there are some.

Women in special forces? Nope.

 

But do you do have to take into consideration how social factors/environment affects sexual dimorphism.

 

If you asked the same question about the physical capabilities of men and women 100 years ago, there was an even bigger difference. If you asked the question during the Victorian Age, there would be no comparison at all.

[Giantevilhead]

With regards to the main point of this topic. I think it is a matter of adequately exploring the idea of social standards and what is considered "normal" within a culture.

 

The fact is that often times, prejudices and oppression are not considered malicious or even intentional. People within that culture simply accept it as a part of their lives. Peasants in Medieval society often accepted their lot in life and don't see lorded by nobles as a bad thing. Societies where kids have to go through tough initiation rituals where they have to get painful tattoos or experience some traumatic event don't see it as abuse. Women who had their feet bound or had to wear corsets didn't consider it to be mutilation. Plenty of slaves, especially those who were born into slavery, did not dream of freedom.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Giantevilhead

[Gyges]

I'd just like it to stay in dialogs like this:

 

Random old bastard: Lass, you should be cooking meals to your husband and tending to the barn. Do you even know how to swing that weapon? Its not a toy you know.

Female Pc: Well i thought i swung it pretty well earlier today when i decapitated those ogres that had been plaguing your village for years.

 

Other choices could be more passive, subtle, angry etc..

Edited October 2, 2012 by Gyges

[eimatshya]

When implementing any feature, I think it is important to ask: "is this fun? will it make the game more enjoyable?" It would certainly capture the feel of the middle ages to have lots of gender prejudice and have women segregated to certain, usually subservient, roles. However, for many people, this would not make the game more fun. If I were female, I would not enjoy having all the gender issues I have to deal with every day thrown in my face when I sit down to relax with a computer game.

 

Being able to create a character free from the all the BS of the real world is precisely what makes video games so enjoyable. They allow you to be someone you aren't, someone who supersedes the limitations you have in the real world. In most fantasy worlds, females are free to be whatever they want and don't have to constantly prove themselves based on their gender. As such, they escape from the struggles they face in the real world. Making a fantasy world where women have to constantly prove their worth relative to males and have to live with the threat of sexual assault just brings all the baggage that they would probably rather leave behind them at the loading screen into what is supposed to be their escape from these issues. It's the same reason I wouldn't want to play a game about paying bills and having no job--because it would be way too much like my real life. Computer games are my time when I can stop worrying about that stuff.

Edited October 2, 2012 by eimatshya

[Flying Magician]

When implementing any feature, I think it is important to ask: "is this fun? will it make the game more enjoyable?" It would certainly capture the feel of the middle ages to have lots of gender prejudice and have women segregated to certain, usually subservient, roles. However, for many people, this would not make the game more fun. If I were female, I would not enjoy having all the gender issues I have to deal with every day thrown in my face when I sit down to relax with a computer game.

 

Being able to create a character free from the all the BS of the real world is precisely what makes video games so enjoyable. They allow you to be someone you aren't, someone who supersedes the limitations you have in the real world. In most fantasy worlds, females are free to be whatever they want and don't have to constantly prove themselves based on their gender. As such, they escape from the struggles they face in the real world. Making a fantasy world where women have to constantly prove their worth relative to males and have to live with the threat of sexual assault just brings all the baggage that they would probably rather leave behind them at the loading screen into what is supposed to be their escape from these issues. It's the same reason I wouldn't want to play a game about paying bills and having no job--because it would be way too much like my real life. Computer games are my time when I can stop worrying about that stuff.

 

Amazing what people are capable to write, to protect piles of pixels from virtual abuse.

 

Yeah, no gender or racial discrimination, no abuse, no slavery, none of real things which are maybe an important part of fictional world. Death and wounds also have to be removed to stop you from worrying, or maybe you let it mercyfully be?

 

I thought Eternity isn't planned to be about LARPing a hero in a toy world full of candies and correctness.

[rjshae]

Imagine a female character. Let's say she's a warrior class, swinging sword is what she does for a living. And maybe she's quite good at it, but why would anyone newly met take her prowess and experience as granted? I can't imagine male soldiers, noblemen and such acknowledging her easily. At least at first. At least until they get to know the character better. And even then you can't expect everyone to like her. She wouldn't be trusted to go on the most important assignments, and know the most important aspects of the state of things. Maybe she wouldn't be permitted to enter a tournament or something. I even bet some self-important bastard would even take on a grudge on a woman taking up a sword. That could lead to a conflict, either open, or concealed where she is ambused in her sleep etc.

 

One factor that needs to be taken into account in a fantasy setting is the impact of magic. It's the great equalizer, and it prevents you from taking people for granted based on just their physical attributes. Another is the effect of meddlesome deities, who can cause cultures and beliefs to change. A warrior goddess who champions female fighters, even if they rely more on guile than muscle mass, can enter into people's thinking and change perspectives. Hence I'm not sure the answer is all that straight forward.

[AW8]

Yes, I'd like to see different responses from the world depending on your gender. Just as I'd like to see different responses depending on your race, your subrace, your class and your earlier actions in the world.

 

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

No. Let's not go there.

No matter the execution, this would cause a ****storm of epic proportions.

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

 

No, just no..... Please don't go there.

 

Some things just don't have a place, this is one of them.

I don't get it. Why does this have to be treated as such a taboo subject? Murder, torture, racism, genocide good. Rape bad!

 

I find this ridiculous.

 

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

No. HELL NO, especially if by 'certain actions' you mean the vicious and violent crime that is forced upon approximately 1 in 6 women? Are you honestly so crass as to want them to be reminded of this when they're playing a game, something that should be safe?

 

I'd rather not be reminded. And if you'd 'like to see' this, even within a game... then I worry about your future.

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

 

What about assault victims? They are reminded of the brutal crime they've suffered in every single fantasy RPG in existance. Should Obsidian remove all types of violence as well?

 

Screw all the interesting stuff that could be achieved with an M rating and the lack of a supervising publisher. Let's botch the idea of a rapist noble (whose existance makes you boil of anger and makes you want nothing more than to hunt down and end this filthy excuse of a person), remove an Elf faction guilty of genocide against Dwarves (which would certainly make things more interesting if you play as an Elf or a Dwarf), and cut a quest where the questgiver makes fun of religion (or agnosticism/atheism!).

 

Because this could offend someone!

[Azrayel]

I think it would be awesome, but very difficult to balance out...

* Bonus quests per race + bonus quests per gender: would mean they will have to have at least (number of races) + 2 (or 3, if there's a single-gendered race?) bonus quests

* Bonus quests per race/gender combo: would mean they will have to have at least (number of dual-gendered races) * 2 (+ number of single-gendered races?) bonus quests

 

For the first one: "bonus quests" have been described as just alternate endings for quests, like in DA:O where the Royal Dwarf can take the throne himself. Still a quest for everyone else. It's be an instance where maybe feminine\masculine whiles could go a certain ways towards coercing someone, or a virgin sacrifice would have to be of a certain gender to complement the other already-captured NPC you're trying to save so for a false flag operation the PC could go as one of the "sacrifices" instead of their other-gender'd companions (who could still be sent, no loss of options).

 

For the second: forgive me if my memory fails, but nothing the devs said seemed to say to me that this combo would be necessary. A m/f of a certain race would 9 times out of 10 fit in to a "racially sensitive" quest, it seems to me, as good either way without the designers particularly attempting to make it fit. If they did, I don't see needing to be a Female Drow (because they have a matriarchy) or a Male Elf (because elfs R hawt) being more of an issue than just pure race or gender.

 

tl;dr: I don't think they're going to double dip.

 

 

As for "rape" and "political correctness"; women can and do rape, not just get raped, and men severely under-report getting raped due to societal pressure; generally just the one whose genitals are mauled get found somewhere and reported.

 

Political correctness? Yeah, I see people complain that other people's interests are getting included: they'd use the opposite argument if something they liked or was representative of them was deliberately set aside, though. You don't need to be a Jew to dislike the Holocaust.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

So it's a setting with magic and monsters but the realism you absolutely need is sexism?

 

No thanks -.-

 

Women will play this game too and I don't want 'Hey remember you are not as good as guys!' thrown in my face in my escapism as well as real life. I don't want restrictions on my characters just because they have ovaries.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Wolfenbarg]

I think it should just vary between people or cultures. New Vegas handled that very well. The Legion felt women were inferior, while most other cultures didn't really care. Even with that standard though, individual people reacted differently to your gender depending on their personalities. I'd say they have a pretty good handle on it.