Bomb and shooting in Norway

[Zoraptor]

Grommie, I think your talking in the third person has made you think things that haven't been said. The ONLY thing I referred to as being whitewashed was the Internment camps, and the reason I said that specifically was because of the fact that in my highschool it effectively attached to the WW2 unit as if to say "So, we also took anyone who looked mildly Asian and put them in camps under guard because of fears they'd be insurgent... and that was sad." I never bothered to seek out anything else because I frankly don't really care about that particular point in history.

 

see, it is good that we spoke up. this way we can see that you clear not know what whitewashing is and that you were, once again, talking out your kiester.

Heh.

 

One suspects that were it a Russian history book glossing over Stalin in such a way the attitude would be... somewhat different, especially given the reaction whenever LoF did his not-whitewashing here.

[Orogun01]

The only good thing about these arguments is that they lead to proppa grammar.

 

<<<will butt out now.

 

Battlefield control terminated.

hey, freaking shot in the dark but do you wanna talk about the bombing sometime?

[Malcador]

It was bad.

[Gromnir]

Also

To whitewash is a metaphor meaning to gloss over or cover up vices, crimes or scandals or to exonerate by means of a perfunctory investigation or through biased presentation of data.

Notice the last five words?

 

 

So, is it "whitewash" in the sense that they glossed over it in order to entirely excuse the fact? No, but it's pretty bloody close.

 

 

 

no, it ain't close. not even a little close. you cannot simply choose half the words from a definition and say, "close enough." the fact that you do not believe that you got a complete picture is NOT a whitewash in any way, shape or form. no glossing over or cover up o' crimes or vices to exonerate, so no whitewash.

 

duh.

 

the rest o' your post is an attempt at deflection and ad hominem. even if you thinks Gromnir is a meany without peer, it not make you any less wrong... 'bout everything you has posted in response to Gromnir. no American attempt to gloss over or cover-up the evils o' japanese internment in texts. am glad we all is clear on that point, 'cause the rest o' this is noise.

 

"What's with the snide remarks in every post gromnir."

 

an exaggeration. we were snide and derisive o' you and calax. you 'cause you defend the kiddie killer and his plagiarized manifesto; claimed that brev were a smarty and courageous guy whose message were worth considering. we is derisive o' calax 'cause he is trying hard to re-write english and perhaps 'cause he is trying to convince folks that America covers up unpleasant racial relations in texts... or maybe he ain't. he still seems a bit confused, but that is mainly 'cause he is trying to defend an untenable position and he has complete lost sight o' his original claim.

 

is plenty o' non-snide Gromnir posts. that being said, am kinda surprised by the number o' outrageous claims being made by folks. normally that is lof's schtick.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 31, 2011 by Gromnir

[Calax]

Grommie of the double standard! AHOY!

 

Also, yeah, that is how the english language works you dork, otherwise you wouldn't have issues with Etymologies or the emergence of new words like "woot"

[Gromnir]

Grommie of the double standard! AHOY!

 

Also, yeah, that is how the english language works you dork, otherwise you wouldn't have issues with Etymologies or the emergence of new words like "woot"

 

no double standard, 'cause Gromnir ain't complaining that calax is a meanie. we welcome, 'cause apparent you get even less rational as you get more worked-up, eh?

 

as for your notions o' the evolution o' language...

 

 

HAAAHHHAAAAAA!

 

fine, once calax successfully gets the definition o' whitewash changed, then he will be correct. let us know when you has managed to get your new-and-improved version o' "whitewash" accepted by a some recognizable % o' the english speaking world such that oed and other sources adopt. however, we would prefer that you start your crusade with "inflammable." it just seems wrong that inflammable = flammable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps

 

to boo,

 

how can we not be snide when you and calax is posting stuff like this?

Edited July 31, 2011 by Gromnir

[Tale]

Points have been made. I'd like to see them continue without any ad hom, if at all possible.

[Gromnir]

Points have been made. I'd like to see them continue without any ad hom, if at all possible.

 

do you actual mean ad hominem as a logic fallacy, or is you asking that insults stop? ad hominem is NOT the same as insulting. is used wrong so frequent that am honest unsure what people is trying to say.

 

however, we would guess that tale wants everybody to play nice, no?

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 31, 2011 by Gorth
Removed quote

[Gorth]

A bit of last minute pruning and editing, since somebody missed the 'stop' sign.

 

however, we would guess that tale wants everybody to play nice, no?

Not claiming to know what goes on underneath those fluffy bunny ears of his, but it's probably a good guess

[Calax]

And you fail to realize that Christianity has also purged all differences - where Europe was once a myriad of different faiths and cultures, now we have a monogamous mass with only the most superficial differences. The clergy decided what was right and the lords waged an ever constant war on one another. This was about 600 years ago for us - and at that time the middle east and Islam was a beacon of tolerance and science compared to us. Yet, you seem to celebrate what we did and scorn them for doing the same? They need a revolution, just as we did - a renaissance.

 

It's a shame that they have become what they have - and they are where they are not because of their faith, but because of the constant invasions of Christians, Mongols and other lower civilizations who grew fat and enlightened on their behalf.

 

Now it's easy to say that they are backwards and dangerous, but simply leaving them at that will never change the situation - we must invade them with ideas and example instead of bombs, if we shut them out then we are just creating a bigger problem for ourselves in the future. The more we ignore it, the poorer and more extreme their society will become.

 

But just so we are clear, I do not advocate mass immigration of illiterate and poor people - I firmly believe that they are much better off staying at home, if we help them out building a better one.

As I mentioned previously, the issue here is that external pushes for a revolution within the Islamic society won't work, for what amount to basically nationalistic reasons. It's much easier to shut down the discussion if the person is an outsider because "They just don't understand this based on their frame of reference".

 

As I said in the previous post that I made to you, The idea has to come from within and gain ground within the societies. If you do that, outside influence can cause the amount of time required for the society to fully change over to lessen, but it'd still be at least a full generation before the society members in general were ideologically changed.

[Orogun01]

As I mentioned previously, the issue here is that external pushes for a revolution within the Islamic society won't work, for what amount to basically nationalistic reasons. It's much easier to shut down the discussion if the person is an outsider because "They just don't understand this based on their frame of reference".

 

As I said in the previous post that I made to you, The idea has to come from within and gain ground within the societies. If you do that, outside influence can cause the amount of time required for the society to fully change over to lessen, but it'd still be at least a full generation before the society members in general were ideologically changed.

The Idea has already came from within from the many people claiming for reform and the many other who speak of it in closed walls. But the fact that Islamic extremism is the dominant force in the regions isn't going to change just because of a (very unlikely) revolution in though. EG: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ran fraudulent elections which despite the public rallies for change did little to advance their cause.

We can wait for the day that there is a massive revolution in thought and change in the balance of power or we can support the reformists. Globalization may have planted the seeds of change, but they need to be supported so as they are not plucked and can grow to fruition.

 

Well I guess that's my bit

Edited July 31, 2011 by Orogun01

[Calax]

And as a counterpoint to Iran is Lybia.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The only good thing about these arguments is that they lead to proppa grammar.

 

<<<will butt out now.

 

Battlefield control terminated.

hey, freaking shot in the dark but do you wanna talk about the bombing sometime?

 

I don't know what more there is to say. I pointed out the man is not like the media portrayed him, judging by his manifest ("christian fundamentalist") and that he's more of a self proclaimed revolutionary/terrorist than a rampage killer (the sparing of the 11 year old suggests this as well).

 

I believe the parts about his alleged organization are true, but its also evident that he cut connections with them some time ago and that they would not approve and support what he did.

 

The attacks speak to a high degree of dedication and planning and a lot of discipline if he indeed pulled it all off by himself. The choice of targets has a sort of logic not exactly often seen on the far right. Most right extremists target whoever grieves them, which is usually some "other" although in most cases it is "your own" that are at fault (who did let the immigrants in after all?).

Evidently Breivik was not as stupid as most in this regard. However the picking of children as targets undermines a lot of politics in the issue, because even he had to know that they're not a legitimate target in "revolutionary struggles". No one is going to be wooed to the cause of a child killer.

 

That speaks to attention seeking and egoism/mania.

 

Also another thing to note is the strange ineptitude of the victims. 76 of them could not conceive a way to incapacitate or kill the man while he slaughtered them like sheep, with a single gun? Not all of them were teens from what I gather.

[Drowsy Emperor]

We can wait for the day that there is a massive revolution in thought and change in the balance of power or we can support the reformists. Globalization may have planted the seeds of change, but they need to be supported so as they are not plucked and can grow to fruition.

 

Its not going to happen. The recent revolutions in the islamic world point to this. The west conveniently chose to view them as cries for "democracy" which they assuredly were not. They were cries for a more legitimate government than the various dictatorships and everyone knows who has the ultimate legitimacy in the Islamic world - the priests.

 

The revolutions point to an erosion of secular authority within the Islamic world (besides who can conceivably rouse the people without support from the priests?) - and some countries are going that way even without riots, like Turkey.

 

Let me remind you that Turkey was the most secular country in the region and that its shift to a more Islam infused policy is very much indicative of what the future holds.

[213374U]

You do realise that your view of Islam is ultimately intolerant? You want to meddle and change them in your image "for their own good" - you may criticize Christianity but at the same time you advocate an ideological crusade. Whose only purpose is to make them more like you because you cannot tolerate them as they are.

Either you or Ros don't understand what tolerance means, as a political and moral concept. However, given your mutual general posting tones, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are misrepresenting his position to build a manichaean fallacy regarding "tolerance" in the West. Tolerance isn't about smiling politely at public stonings or nodding sagely at genital mutilation because they are performed by people from "other cultures", and obviously, rejecting that is not intolerance. Tolerance cannot be understood separately from other concepts like moral minimums and therefore, suggesting acceptance of actions, conducts or beliefs that contradict such minimums -and to a much lesser degree, the laws embodied by them- doesn't fall within the realm of tolerance.

 

Tolerance is the political path to peaceful coexistence of different cultures in a society. It has worked in the past -the Muslim state of Al-Andalus is a particularly relevant example- and is strictly different from either cultural assimilation or the kind of parochial nationalism you seem to favor.

 

 

 

I pointed out the man is not like the media portrayed him, judging by his manifest ("christian fundamentalist") and that he's more of a self proclaimed revolutionary/terrorist than a rampage killer (the sparing of the 11 year old suggests this as well).

Pending a conclusive psychological evaluation, I wouldn't put much stock on whatever he has to say. Considering his methods, his choice of targets and his personal history and lifestyle, I'm more inclined to believe that he is, in fact, just another misfit whose only remarkable trait is the single-mindedness that allowed him to plan and carry out the attacks. So, yeah, just another rampage killer with delusions of grandeur.

 

 

Also another thing to note is the strange ineptitude of the victims. 76 of them could not conceive a way to incapacitate or kill the man while he slaughtered them like sheep, with a single gun? Not all of them were teens from what I gather.

No, there was also an unarmed plainclothes cop among the victims, from what I read. I guess he was "inept" too? Have you ever tried to disarm someone who was wielding, say, a knife?

 

I'd like to see you not soil your pants in a similar situation, tough guy.

[Gorgon]

I suppose they could have easily overwhelmed him, if they were rushing Zerg with no consideration for their own lives and not people. Cowards indeed.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Tolerance is the political path to peaceful coexistence of different cultures in a society. It has worked in the past -the Muslim state of Al-Andalus is a particularly relevant example- and is strictly different from either cultural assimilation or the kind of parochial nationalism you seem to favor.

 

That is not how proponents of multiculturalism/political correctnes treat tolerance in practice.

 

No, there was also an unarmed plainclothes cop among the victims, from what I read. I guess he was "inept" too? Have you ever tried to disarm someone who was wielding, say, a knife?

 

I'd like to see you not soil your pants in a similar situation, tough guy.

 

There were 76 of them. Even with panic, and most people not being of the confrontational sort its remarkable that no one had the presence of mind to do anything at all.

 

People have been killed by a well thrown rock you know.

 

PS: You don't disarm people wielding a knife. You either shoot them, throw things at them or run. Everything else is suicide unless they're a completely inept punk. Although most people that brandish a knife, are really looking for a way not to use it. If they wanted to use it, you'd never get to see it before its too late.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[obyknven]

Six innocent people were killed on the site and 28 others were injured. The people around fought hard with the suspects and killed one of them. The other suspect was caught,'' reported Tianshannet, a government-run news portal serving the Xinjiang region of northwest

[Nepenthe]

And as a counterpoint to Iran is Lybia.

 

L I B Y A, ffs.

[Malcador]

Come on, wouldn't say they were inept. Pretty sure they could have easily taken him down, even without zerging in some cases as he walked by hidden people, but I'm not expecting civilians to suddenly become soldiers or heroes instantly.

[213374U]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...among-dead.html

 

Facts, once again, trump fantasies. An unarmed policeman (unsurprisingly) failed to stop the gunman and got killed in the process. There's of course the fact that most victims were teenagers who would have a hard time subduing a healthy strong adult. But hey, what do I know. You can take out n00bs with knife headshots in Counterstrike provided that you are bold enough, so it obviously must be doable IRL. Even if you, uh, don't really have a knife.

 

Oh, and oby, the attack you are referring to was a knife attack. The attackers themselves were rushed by a mob armed with sharp and blunt objects themselves, so they were both outgunned and outnumbered. But yeah, the West is weak and decadent, because political leaders here don't wrestle polar bears before breakfast.

 

So, fantasize on, Obsidian forums!

Edited July 31, 2011 by 213374U

[Drowsy Emperor]

I knew about the policeman, so what?

 

Dude, I'm not saying they had 100% a chance to do anything but the numbers are what they are - 1:76. Its simply a lot of people and he pulled it off too easily. He would have had to change clips at some point (even though a well trained individual can do that really fast) and couldn't possibly be aware of so many people at all times.

 

A healthy adult can no more take a thrown brick to the head than anyone else.

 

This goes a lot into the "what if" territory but there simply was very little resistance, or so it seems.

[Walsingham]

As any apartheid policeman wuold tell you: there's **** all point rushing a man with an automatic weapon. This isn't the movies.

 

As for the notion that whatsisface was some sort of 'highly disciplined' killer, that's arse. He is by comparison with many of the comitragic jifascist efforts we've seen recently. But there was nothing in what he did which would be beyond the owner of any small business that makes pots or does gardening.

 

I find suggestions that he was very disciplined ill conceived at best, and secretly admiring at worst.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I find suggestions that he was very disciplined ill conceived at best, and secretly admiring at worst.

 

Disciplined "lifestyle" while planning (claim supported by skimming through journalistic entries) - not disciplined killing. I don't think he even did army service. The only semi-combat related skills he had were bodybuilding and target practice.

Therefore the notion of a sort of "military discipline" can be safely thrown out of the window.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[213374U]

Am I the only one who thinks it's Stanley Kubrick-absurd to suggest responding to gunfire with pinpoint rock throwing? Even without getting into a debate about effective ranges and stopping power... flying bricks? Seriously?

 

And the only ones who would consider weight lifting to be an activity even remotely related to combat are perhaps some of those who dream of being bodybuilders. "This new program I'm on is DEATH... for the shoulders", "I'd KILL for 20″ arms", "Check out these GUNZ", etc. facepalm.gif

 

This is why I love coming here.