Bomb and shooting in Norway

[Drowsy Emperor]

Am I the only one who thinks it's Stanley Kubrick-absurd to suggest responding to gunfire with pinpoint rock throwing? Even without getting into a debate about effective ranges and stopping power... flying bricks? Seriously?

 

And the only ones who would consider weight lifting to be an activity even remotely related to combat are perhaps some of those who dream of being bodybuilders. "This new program I'm on is DEATH... for the shoulders", "I'd KILL for 20″ arms", "Check out these GUNZ", etc. facepalm.gif

 

This is why I love coming here.

 

Don't be absurd. I was just listing anything related to possible "combat readiness" and bodybuilding is supplemental training at best.

I weight lift myself (moderately) and its a great help in strength building for other unarmed combat training: martial arts/boxing/mma.

Overall though unarmed combat has a very small role in military training regimes serving more to sustain physical readiness and troop competitiveness than increase combat proficiency.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[213374U]

Don't be absurd.

Hahaha. Irony.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Don't be absurd.

Hahaha. Irony.

 

*sigh* mockery gets you nothing.

 

If I wasn't being clear on an issue (and it happens obviously) at least ask for clarification before resorting to it.

[Zoraptor]

Dude, I'm not saying they had 100% a chance to do anything but the numbers are what they are - 1:76. Its simply a lot of people and he pulled it off too easily. He would have had to change clips at some point (even though a well trained individual can do that really fast) and couldn't possibly be aware of so many people at all times.

He had more than 1 gun (3, iirc, with the other two being 9mm handguns) so reloading was far less an issue.

 

In any case he does not have to deal with hundreds of people looking to kill him. This is not a United 93 type situation where a largish group of people have a long time to deliberate and come to terms with it being us vs them/ him, to the death; and that vs guys with boxcutters. This is a situation where a 'policeman' gathers a bunch of teenagers, and a few adults, together then pulls an assault rifle and opens fire. He doesn't have to deal with hundreds of people, he has to deal with the very small proportion who react to this- slightly unusual- situation by deciding to spontaneously, and uncoordinatedly, charge him. Once they are gone everyone else is- basically- irrelevant since they're in too small groups and far, far too panicked.

 

I'm sure most people think/ hope that they would be the hero who charges the guy with an M14 and takes him out, Arnie style; it's an easy dream to have while sitting in the warm and comfortable glow of a monitor, drinking a coffee and eating a scone.

[Tigranes]

It's difficult to live with the acute knowledge that if a gunman were to open fire on you, you'd probably die in a sordid, pathetic, painful manner, probably hiding beneath other bodies or begging for your life with snot coming out of your nose. Unfortunately, that is the truth.

 

I won't claim to know how Drowsy would deal with it, himself, but expecting that the mainly-kids should have done better carries little weight, and simply rings of careless thought speaking before experience.

[Orogun01]

It's difficult to live with the acute knowledge that if a gunman were to open fire on you, you'd probably die in a sordid, pathetic, painful manner, probably hiding beneath other bodies or begging for your life with snot coming out of your nose. Unfortunately, that is the truth.

 

I won't claim to know how Drowsy would deal with it, himself, but expecting that the mainly-kids should have done better carries little weight, and simply rings of careless thought speaking before experience.

I seem to handle, but then again I was raised to do so. But don't worry memory has a very short half life.

[Malcador]

I guess if you were accustomed to gunfire, it'd be different. Hm, time to head down to Mexico and harden up that way.

[Calax]

this- slightly unusual- situation

I now have an image in my head of a dramatic gun reveal in a shopping mall and the bystanders just going "Huh... that's new"

[Orogun01]

I guess if you were accustomed to gunfire, it'd be different. Hm, time to head down to Mexico and harden up that way.

Learn Spanish and bring your own shotgun

[213374U]

And don't forget the antidepressants. PTSD is a bitch.

[Humodour]

PTSD is a bitch.

 

Not if you have access to MDMA.

[Nepenthe]

Am I the only one who thinks it's Stanley Kubrick-absurd to suggest responding to gunfire with pinpoint rock throwing? Even without getting into a debate about effective ranges and stopping power... flying bricks? Seriously?

 

And the only ones who would consider weight lifting to be an activity even remotely related to combat are perhaps some of those who dream of being bodybuilders. "This new program I'm on is DEATH... for the shoulders", "I'd KILL for 20″ arms", "Check out these GUNZ", etc. facepalm.gif

 

This is why I love coming here.

I dunno, raw size probably doesn't help much, but strength training is definitely useful, as you tend to lug around a pretty serious amount of loot.

 

Norway still has conscription, but I haven't read one way or the other about Breivik's involvement in it. Some of the craziest militarists I know went conscientous objectors from sheer laziness, so, everything's possible.

[Drowsy Emperor]

It's difficult to live with the acute knowledge that if a gunman were to open fire on you, you'd probably die in a sordid, pathetic, painful manner, probably hiding beneath other bodies or begging for your life with snot coming out of your nose. Unfortunately, that is the truth.

 

That's really what was crossing my mind.

 

Its hard to accept that your life may be so fully out of your control.

[Walsingham]

Dude, I'm not saying they had 100% a chance to do anything but the numbers are what they are - 1:76. Its simply a lot of people and he pulled it off too easily. He would have had to change clips at some point (even though a well trained individual can do that really fast) and couldn't possibly be aware of so many people at all times.

He had more than 1 gun (3, iirc, with the other two being 9mm handguns) so reloading was far less an issue.

 

In any case he does not have to deal with hundreds of people looking to kill him. This is not a United 93 type situation where a largish group of people have a long time to deliberate and come to terms with it being us vs them/ him, to the death; and that vs guys with boxcutters. This is a situation where a 'policeman' gathers a bunch of teenagers, and a few adults, together then pulls an assault rifle and opens fire. He doesn't have to deal with hundreds of people, he has to deal with the very small proportion who react to this- slightly unusual- situation by deciding to spontaneously, and uncoordinatedly, charge him. Once they are gone everyone else is- basically- irrelevant since they're in too small groups and far, far too panicked.

 

I'm sure most people think/ hope that they would be the hero who charges the guy with an M14 and takes him out, Arnie style; it's an easy dream to have while sitting in the warm and comfortable glow of a monitor, drinking a coffee and eating a scone.

 

Indeed. Further it's worth pointing out that several studies during WW2* indicated that only 1 in 10 front line soldiers actually actively shot at the enemy. And that was with freaking guns. Not rocks.

 

Hiding or running is a damned sensible idea. Not that I'm mocking anyone who tried to take him on. I'm just not mocking anyone who didn't.

 

*[Marshal, 'Men Against Fire' from memory]

[Drowsy Emperor]

Hiding or running is a damned sensible idea. Not that I'm mocking anyone who tried to take him on. I'm just not mocking anyone who didn't.

 

I'd normally agree with you, but on a tiny island with no means of escape?

 

The way it seems the only thing separating you from death is his potential lack of thoroughness.

 

How long did it take the police to respond anyway?

Edited August 1, 2011 by Drowsy Emperor

[Malcador]

An hour or so. A helicopter crew was on vacation, which held things up, I believe. Really not -that- long a response to get, after a major bombing, a trained unit to respond, but could have been better (like everything else when you're looking back)/ Did find it odd how there were no armed police on the island, but I'm looking at that based on how they do things here.

[Fleapants]

Having armed police guard a youth camp would be unheard of in Norway. Most of NW Europe too.

I'm surprised that there even was one (unarmed) guy in charge of security.

[Junai]

Having armed police guard a youth camp would be unheard of in Norway. Most of NW Europe too.

I'm surprised that there even was one (unarmed) guy in charge of security.

 

True.

 

This undercover cop hurled his 11 yr old son to safety behind some tents, and charged the killer, only to be

shot a few feet before he rammed into him. There were a couple of other grown ups, mostly old women.

They didn't stand a chance.

 

Most of these people were bbq'ing and having a few beers on a friday night. When some 6'2" tall psycho hits

the camp with smoke grenades and a machinegun, the kids naturally scatter and flee in all directions.

 

The police response-time has been (or at least, will be) debated. One friggin' helicopter pilot in Oslo, and he

was on summer-vacation! That's the norwegian police for you. I never liked the chief of police we've

had for the last years, but I don't think the new one is gonna do any better. They're basically just politicans.

The Minister of Justice and the Police isn't doing a very good job either.

The whole thing reeks of bureaucracy, complacency and sluggishness.

 

 

 

J.

[Nepenthe]

Well, the Finnish police doesn't have a single helicopter... (They borrow them from the army and the border guard, who, of course, are never on holiday)...

[Malcador]

Now in Canada, well, our police would have shown up promptly. And probably have killed some of their own officers and tased panicky kids.

[Fleapants]

One of the survivors at Utoya wrote an open letter to Breivik. I thought it would be good to repost it here to show what's going on in Norway right now.

 

Dear Anders Behring Brevik

 

Many of my comrades who I met at Utoya is killed, and it is you who is the perpetrator. You are the man who randomly did not kill me. I was lucky.

 

You may think you've won. You may think you've ruined it for the Labor Party and people around the world, which stands for the multi-cultural society by killing my friends and party colleagues.

 

You should know that it has failed.

 

You have not only assembled the world you have set our souls on fire, and we have never before been united as we do now.

 

You refer to yourself as a hero, knight. You're not a hero. But one thing is certain. You have created heroes. At Utoya, on that hot day in July, you made ​​some of the greatest heroes of the world has ever seen. You've gathered all the world's people. Black as a white man as a woman, a child as an adult, red as blue, Christian as Muslim.

 

You have made your victims martyrs, immortals, and you have shown the world that when a person can show as much hatred as you have done, think how much love we can show that when we stand together? People who I thought hated me, gave me hugs on the street, people I have not had contact with for years has written 3-400 word on how much it means to them that I survived. What can you say about that? Have you broken something? You have united us.

 

You have killed my friends, but you have not killed our case, our opinions, our right to express ourselves. Muslim women have received hugs from random Norwegian women on the street, and your goal was to protect Europe for Islam? Your work has acted against his intention, we have created a community.

 

You do not deserve thanks, you deserve just to hear how your plan worked. Many are angry, you are Norway's most hated man. I'm not angry. I fear you not. You can not touch us, we are bigger than you. We do not respond to evil with evil, as you would do. We fight evil with good. And we win.

 

By Benjamin Ostebo.

 

Lazy google translation.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Fleapants

[Walsingham]

I'd be afraid of him. The man's mental and he has/had guns.

[Drowsy Emperor]

This outcome is the reason I said he went about the wrong way in fighting multiculturalism.

[Walsingham]

You want us together but distinct, eh?

[Junai]

Although noone stopped the murderer, there were a few heroes;

 

Marcel Gleffe, a german ex-military who currently works as a roofer in Norway, was camping out on the mainland

side when he heard the shooting. He drove out with his boat and brought a few dozen kids to the

other shore, dodging bullets in the process.

 

J.